Obama is not doing it to gain 'a few Republican votes', he is doing it FOR the insurance companies

[debbierlus]

This is an important point.

This entire health care 'reform' is being dictated by the health insurance companies. The people pushing hardest for this reform are big pharm and corporate private insurance lobbyists. (See my journal for complete post). The purpose of this reform is to enact MANDATORY PRIVATE INSURANCE, on a national level.

Closed door meetings. Private White House lobbyist meetings with the big health insurance & big pharm players. Arrests of doctors and nurses in Congress who showed up to demand representation of Single Payer.

We were NEVER allowed to discuss real reform with this President. We were TOLD (like a bunch of children who are incapable of thoughtful review of all the policy options), single payer is OFF the table before the conversation even began. Obama's sole discussion about single payer was to dismiss it as 'too dispruptive' in one of his town hall meetings.

Obama has not taken a firm stand on the most important points of true health care reform. He refuses to stand firmly for a real public option, instead placing all the 'options' on the table to be 'negotiated' away.

Selling a severely flawed plan dictated & pushed by the insurance companies to the American people may be seen by some as 'a President working his butt off', but it is seen by me as an exercise in snake oil salesmanship in the first degree. The President may be 'working his butt off' but for whom?

Obama praises the deal with the blue dog's as progress while the progressive caucus (the people that DU, as a rule, revere as defenders of truth & justice) came out against the deal stating it is a 'sop to the insurnance companies' and pointing out that by limiting the ability of the government to drive insurance rates lower, it 'lets insurance companies off the hook for savings they are already promised to the government'.

Meanwhile, the blue dogs proclaimed this a big win.

Obama already has one completely shameful HUGE corporate scam perpetuated by the corporations and passed through his popularity, under his belt:

The bank bailouts.

With health reform, he may just add another notch to his belt.

And, if indeed the corporations are again able to pull off the is coup with Obama supporters championing THEIR legislation because of the President's support, they will have indeed reaped the benefits of investing in Obama as the new corporate frontman.

It will have worked like a charm.

[alcibiades_mystery]

1. TARP was passed when Bush was President

Clownish post.

[Buzz Clik]

3. You lookin' for a fight?

Stop posting annoying facts! We're on a roll here.

[debbierlus]

18. Bank bailouts went WAY beyond Tarp & you know it -

Tarp was just a warm up...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jane-hamsher/obama-financial-team-to-t_b_163196.html

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/story?id=7153525&page=1

http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/business/NATLTab-For-Banks-Could-Reach-24-Trillion.html

http://www.openleft.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=12454

http://firedoglake.com/2009/02/09/geithners-plan-bail-out-the-banks-keep-the-same-people-in-charge-and-let-them-do-what-they-want/

You know what?

You might want to fight against this kind of b.s. policy and pillaging of the American citizen, instead of rallying against the person who dares point it out.

I thought this type of behavior was reserved for the bushbots.

[John Q. Citizen]

21. They won't engage in real argument, just in attacks. They are afraid of your argument because it's

a pretty good one. All they have is derision to counter your good argument with.

[alcibiades_mystery]

38. Please

Everything you linked there is an implementation of TARP.

But this goes to the larger point. Essentially, your argument boils down to this:

Because Obama didn't 1) nationalize the financial sector, 2) nationalize the health sector, and 3) transform the embedded operations of the Congress inside of seven months, he's a corporate toady, and everyone who voted for him is a dupe of corporate interests. It's ludicrous. What you want is rapid transformation of the whole of American society in inside a year, presumably deriving from Obama's magical powers to make it so. In other words, you want revolutionary change, but through the gentle means of the ballot (i.e., through reformist means).

Now, I want revolutionary change, too. But I'm not so stupid to think that you get revolutionary change through conventional means, nor am I stupid enough to think that any of the things you seem to want could possibly pass through the conventional means we have available. At least without a civil war, which is thoroughly unconventional, I should think. So, the Congress - a massive majority Democratic Congress has difficulty getting a public option through, but you think they should have gone with complete nationalization of the health sector! Some people need to learn the principle of a fortiori. Because, you see, single payer is far more radical than a public option, so if the one is difficult, the other is damn near impossible under the current configuration of power. You don't want a bill. You want a martyred ideal. Which is, of course, the trait of any fanatic.

Revolutionary change is bloody business, and more so when you expect it on the spot. If you want the far less bloody version of reformism, you're going to need some patience. But you should stop expecting revolutionary change without either blood or time. The world doesn't work that way.

[dionysus]

79. please make that an OP.

[suzie]

104. +1

[The Magistrate]

102. Well Said, My Friend!

[Sunnyshine]

103. Americans accept dismissive explanations and endless hesitations way too easily.

What nation on Earth had a civil war over granting their citizens universal health care?

Everyday, my eyes take in the gross inhumanity of our current socio/economic systems. WE suffer from diseases caused by the poisons of corporate polluters on one end, and are then processed right into our death on the other end. Corporations are there to profit from every aspect of our existence. Squeezing the life out of us. Life is grand for those who make money off of that model. Not so much for those who do not. Why tolerate such irresponsible hedging and keep giving them more money to kill us off even quicker?

Conceding and coddling these unfit corporatist is letting them keep highest stakes in controlling every aspect of our way of life here in America. They even profit off of religiousness! Food, Energy, Tobacco, insurers, banking, media, etc...plutocrats twisted up together to concentrate their wealth. The are out of control and have no interest in changing their unethical tunes.

Please do not blame compassionate folks for wanting what is ultimately the better answer. They are real people who may have troubles and we are all paying to our death trying to survive in a system that is corrupt and immoral. We see decades upon decades of millions and millions of deaths laid out in charts to show how well they profited from our numbed go along mentality.

This is not about some flippant purity oath, but serious life and death decisions for millions of people.

Seems like defeatism to advocate for baby-steps and band-aids with health care- especially w/ current economy. The loudest people in this fight wanted the very same thing back in the '80's/'90's. These paid pundits then later became money hungry lobbyist's for the fanatics who keep us sick and broke. Imagine that! We are still in the same crappy boat, and its been taking on water ever since.

I do not expect President Obama to fix this with a wave of his hand, but I am sure we would make more progress if people would support each other and stop allowing the profit masters to control the outcome because we excuse it with forgone conclusions.

Please don't take this reply as me trying to flame your post. I do understand what you are saying too.

[Buzz Clik]

52. Are we playing DU bingo? I just got a big one -- "bushbot"!!!!11 woohoo!

[DevonRex]

2. Ridiculous post.

[dionysus]

5. the hits keep coming don't they?

:hi:

[DevonRex]

8. Yep they do. And now she's a mind reader.

:eyes:

:hi:

[John Q. Citizen]

12. Says who? And why? At least the OP makes an argument. All you do is make an unsupported statement.

Can't you offer a logical argument to counter the OP?

Are you that unable to come up with a coherent thesis?


Do you have a bottom line at which point you wouldn't support a bill? Do you think for your self, or did you hire Barack to do your thinking for you?

[dionysus]

13. and the OP's argument is supported by...

...



...



...


...

pure conjecture....

[DevonRex]

19. She stated a wacky opinion as if it were fact. Kinda like the birthers.

:evilgrin:

[John Q. Citizen]

22. You attack like a freeper; All derision no thought out argument. please make you case without

personal attacks, if you are capable of making a case, that is.

[dionysus]

26. ah, the obligatory freeper accusations. keep going, you're on a roll.

:rofl:

[John Q. Citizen]

29. Derision is your only argument? What do you like about the compromise? Why is it good for us?

Please elaborate.

If you have even thought about it.

[dionysus]

31. the OP is declaring Obama is a insurance company stooge with no proof. there is nothing to debate.

:shrug:

[debbierlus]

34. No proof. Give me a BREAK.

When advocates of real reform are locked out of the debate, and we have to beg to get ONE single payer advocate at his health care summit - it is not speculation.

When he holds private meeting after private meeting with health insurance executives, it is NOT speculative.

When he places a strong public option on the 'negotiating table' to be bartered away, it is NOT speculative.

Speculative?

C'mon. Be honest. At least with yourself.

[dionysus]

35. the clue phone rings, to inform you that congress is writing the legislation... not the president...

:eyes:

[debbierlus]

39. Oh please. Obama could do a LOT to stand up for real health reform

He is in a STRONG position to lead on this one. I am sure you have seen the polls supporting a public option.

He stands no political vulnerability in standing up for strong and meaningful reform, yet he lays it all out to be negotiated away.

Why?

We voted them in to FIGHT for us and real reform, not negotiate away real reform for the appearance of political harmony. And, that is my point. They don't NEED to negotiate out the foundations for strong reform. People want strong reform.

The OBVIOUS conclusion - if they don't need to negotiate away the public option, if they could stand and fight (and yes, be cheered) for standing up to and against the profiteering insurance companies - they must WANT to pass legislation that benefits the insurance companies.

And, that by its very nature goes AGAINST the needs of the Ameican people.

This is not complicated. It is blatantly obvious.

[alcibiades_mystery]

41. You forgot about Obama's magic Society Transforming Power

The STP is not being deployed!

[debbierlus]

62. If you recall inauguration day, you might remember the electricity and hope

Obama rode in on the change bus. People were ready. People are ready.

People want real reform. They are hungering for relief from the corporate profit mongering bastards who dictate the law.

He never has taken on the corporate system, he works within its broken framework, reduced to a spokesperson for the policies they write. He never positions himself againt them, always trying to reach out an olive branch to gain meaningless concessions.

[alcibiades_mystery]

65. You are reduced

We'll see in six months whether the concessions are "meaningless" to people fucking dying without insurance today. It's not a fucking game you know.

[debbierlus]

81. People will continue to die as the insurance companies retain control over the health care system

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Faryn%20Balyncd/29

Read this -

Obama calls this progress.

It is not progress. It is the private insurance companies wet dream. Read my journal for the post about who is pushing hardest for this version of 'reform'. Hint - it isn't doctors, nurses, or other health care providers, the vast majority whom support single payer.

No. It isn't a game. But, it is sure being played out like one.

And, you seem to be under the delusion that the private insurance industry that has reduced the current health care system to this shameful state seems to have interest to actually fix it for the people. And, THAT who is writing this crap.

[alcibiades_mystery]

86. What I learned

Is that you never gave up your hatred for Obama, and this is just another way for you to play it out. It's pathetic and sad. You always view the downside, because you always want top see it. It gives you pleasure, even. You have no judgment or credibility to speak on anything, because your blind rage clouds everything.

[natrat]

88. i hate stupid people

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DevonRex]

28. She started her OP with a crazy statement. It got the responses it deserved.

[John Q. Citizen]

30. Obama has worked hand in glove with the health insurance companies from the start

AHIP attended all of his meetings. They did press conferences together.

Are you claiming that isn't the case?

[DevonRex]

14. The very title of her OP is an unsupported statement. Nothing but

ridiculous speculation meant to trash Obama and ONLY Obama, as if nobody ELSE has had anything else to do with any of this. There IS a Congress, you know.

Did you READ the title? Good lord. It's speculative nonsense only meant as flame bait. So I called bullshit.

[debbierlus]

32. Speculative? HA!

It is speculative that the main goal of this legislation is to continue to allow the health insurance leeches to profit off human illness?

In fact, with no strong public option, we are developing a system to expand the private insurance system, ensure they remain profitable with increased enrollments, and keep the current status quo. Is this the type of health reform you really want? Mandated private insurance through insurance companies that STILL will wield the power to deny care. Mandated private insurance that will maintain their profits without any competition.

No. It is not speculative.

When Pelosi comes out and states that any public plan must allow the insurance companies to remain competitive...(ie PROFITABLE), it is not speculative. http://alankatz.wordpress.com/2009/06/11/public-health-plans-and-level-playing-fields/

When Obama is willing to 'negotiate' away any true public option to get mandated private insurance pased...it is NOT speculative.

If this in NOT what you want, the time to speak up is NOW and call the White House and every Senator and Congress person and ring the phones off the hook.

Threaten Blue Dogs to be primaried.

Fax, show up at their offices, phone, participate in local protests, stand with signs on the street....

[DevonRex]

33. Look, I think you are on the RIGHT side of the health care reform argument.

Your other OP on the subject this morning is fantastic.

It's the Blame Obama For Everything stuff that hurts whatever arguments you want to make. It's just conspiracy theory stuff hitting from the left rather than the right.

[paulk]

24. that's such a compelling argument...

[donco6]

54. It's all they've got. n/t

[dionysus]

4. jesus christ.

:eyes:

[JohnnyLib2]

7. Is he for reform or agin it?

:evilgrin:

[boomerbust]

6. YYYAAAAAWWWWNNN

:boring:

[donco6]

53. THAT's your contribution?

How utterly worthless.

[debbierlus]

9. Look at the damn policy. Argue for it on the merits.

I will be fascinated to hear the defense of the continual leeching of profits off human illness, soon to be governmentally mandated by Congress & the Obama administration.

A system that is breaking apart, in MA, as we speak.

I really don't care, if you flame me. I am completely used to it.

And, I would love a real fight. A real fight for health care with a community of progressives who won't stand for ANY politician negotiating the human right to health care for insurance company profit.

I am such a radical. Decent health care reform, what a concept! I forgot, silly me, we can't HAVE it because THEY won't let us.

[John Q. Citizen]

10. i think you make a very strong argument. At least we know why single payer was strangled in the

crib last December.

They had to marginalize the single payer people in order to negotiate away the public option people.

Now we are headed toward fascist health care. We will be legally compelled by the government to purchase health insurance from private insurance companies.

Everyone will be covered; with shit insurance, large out of pocket expenditures like deductibles and co-pays, and the insurance companies will continue to run the system and buy our congress people.

[invictus]

23. +1

[jbnow]

98. Only Dennis K campaigned on single payer. Sad

We know it would never pass congress in any case

Outside of the single payer I liked Obama's plan best...but now he is accepting that mandate. Mandates are so wrong with private for profit companies(though Obama was bashed for being against them in primaries by Clinton, Edwards and of course Krugman.)

With a strong public plan it is a little better...but I think his idea to have kids on parents insurance to age 26 to cover many and then at least waiting to see the prices and situation before considering mandates...

[DevonRex]

11. Your OP is 50% fiction and 50% speculation, all designed to slam Obama

and Obama ALONE. You deserve to be flamed.

[John Q. Citizen]

20. Let's take it line by line, shall we. I'd like to see your argument instead of one liner opinions.

"This entire health care 'reform' is being dictated by the health insurance companies. The people pushing hardest for this reform are big pharma and corporate private insurance lobbyists."

That's the first line of the OP. I just heard the head of the pharmaceutical association on NPR this morning pushing for these reforms. Apparently they already negotiated that there would be no drug importation from other countries, and no price negotiation for drugs; ie the bush bill (medicare d ) would stand unchallenged. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=111347558

This is neither speculation nor is it fiction. These are the prople who are dictating the terms of the deal. We, the American people are just left as cheerleaders. We aren't part of that deal or part of the debate.


Please defend your statement that this is fiction or speculation. Thank you.

[DevonRex]

27. I suspect that you and I agree in large part on the issues. I agree that

health insurance companies are dictating policy. What I do not agree with is her implication that Obama hasn't tried to get real health care reform.

We have all seen how difficult it is dealing with members of our OWN party, like Baucus, etc. And Harry Reid doesn't seem to be any help at all. Hell they're even having to threaten Baucus' chairmanship and I'd just like to know what took them so long. He's behaving like a nasty ass republican.

We are frustrated about this. I am frustrated about this. But I have better sense than to lay all the blame at Obama's feet. If the OP wants to discuss the issues WITHOUT irrational assumptions about Obama somehow doing all this FOR the insurance companies, that's great. But when the OP starts off with a batshit crazy sentence like that...

There is another post up now by the OP that actually has links to an article. And that post will promote discussion. This one was simply a speculative piece that lays all the health care reform ills at the feet of ONE man an as such, it deserves to be flamed.

[John Q. Citizen]

40. Obama has worked with Baucus from the very start. So has SEIU, (here in Montana) and

so has DFA and Move-on. In fact, from the start, all of them have been rhetorically on the exact same page. It's funny, SEIU is on record as supporting single payer (endorsed 676) yet as of last June they were doing letter writing campaigns in Montana to thank Baucus for his hard work on health care.

We know that Obama ran on inclusiveness, he specifically said that all ideas would be considered, and then the first thing he did was cut the millions of Americans who favor single payer out of the debate.

So assuming anything about Obama, is perhaps unwise, and that would include assuming he isn't doing this for the health insurance companies too.

I think we should hold Obama to the exact same standards we are holding Baucus. You know Baucus' white paper he released last January was chock full of great sounding things like a strong public option that would control costs, like full extensive coverage for all. Just like Obama's rap.

The problem isn't their rap, the problem is what the bill looks like now and how far they are willing to compromise away OUR health care reform so they can claim they did something.

I've been damn suspicious from the start because one of the first things I learned about politics and about negotiation is you always start by asking for more than you expect to end up with.

So when almost ALL the Dems (including Obama) started with the Public Option I felt like the fix was already in and the writing was on the wall.

Anyway, thank you for your real and actual response, I don't necessarily agree with your opinion about this OP completely, but i respect that you are willing to actually discuss it. Thanks

[DevonRex]

44. It seems like democrats compromise with the first idea they put on the table.

I don't understand it. I think some of them don't actually want more progressive policies, like Baucus, etc. But I think some of them believe they're showing a willingness to find common ground. But it seems to me that that only makes things better if the other side (a) realizes it and (b) responds in kind. Actually I should add (c) gives a shit.

If I had my way, we'd all have Medicare and that's what I've been telling my representatives.

And thank you, too, for the discussion. :hi:

[debbierlus]

36. Thank you. I invite everyone to read my journal for much more detail and LINKS

This post was my analysis after watching this debacle closely for MONTHS.

I have written EXTENSIVELY about specific points.

[Sheepshank]

57. Your link doesn't indicate no importation, no price negotiations.

Did you get that from somewhere else?

[John Q. Citizen]

74. It's in the audio. I heard it this morning on the radio.(NPR)

[Laelth]

15. I fear you may be right. k&r n/t

:dem:

-Laelth

[berni_mccoy]

16. Aw Jeez, Not This Shit Again!

[depakid]

17. Look, as much as I want to agree with your take- and as much as anyone thinks the goals are noble

fact is that single payer can't be done in one fell swoop. And probably shouldn't be.

That said- you're right. It probably wasn't wise to summarily dismiss the matter, as that's what Republicans and their enablers would have been expected to characterize the issues as anyway. "Socialized medicine." BOO!

And so they have.

Yet again.

For the most part, we're dealing with positional bargainers here. Not smart folks, looking to solve problems. These types drive their points home through fear- and so, we need to as well- as Obama has done from time to time- lay out what happens without reform.

And really get down and dirty with it.

[debbierlus]

25. No, single payer can't be done in one fail swoop. And, I have repeatedly stated

I support a STRONG public option...

The basic questions - what is Obama willing to negotiate and for what purpose?

Mandatory private insurance with no real government option is not progress. It is government mandated participation in a failed/unethical/financially insolvent system.

This has already played out in MA. Our system will collapse under the expesnse within two years. Without taking the profit motive out for the insurance companies, real reform won't happen.

A strong public option is a viable step towards that goal. I agree.

However, with every day that passes, it becomes more and more apparent that we are NOT going to get anything close to a real public option. Only a political expedient 'let them eat cake' gesture that will be impotent to stop the profiteering by the private insurance companies by design.

This is an on-coming train. You can see it from miles away.

And, there is no possible way we can stop it from hitting us, if we can't even agree its coming.

[SpartanDem]

42. If the only the thing plan did was mandate insurace then you might have a point

but you completely ignore the other reforms that are in the plans. If Obama was insurance stooge that you make him out to be none of these would be happening becuase it will cost them billions in care they've been able to deny.


No Discrimination for Pre-Existing Conditions: Insurance companies will be prohibited from refusing you coverage because of your medical history.

* No Exorbitant Out-of-Pocket Expenses, Deductibles or Co-Pays: Insurance companies will have to abide by yearly caps on how much they can charge for out-of-pocket expenses.

* No Cost-Sharing for Preventive Care: Insurance companies must fully cover, without charge, regular checkups and tests that help you prevent illness, such as mammograms or eye and foot exams for diabetics.

* No Dropping of Coverage for Seriously Ill: Insurance companies will be prohibited from dropping or watering down insurance coverage for those who become seriously ill.

* No Gender Discrimination: Insurance companies will be prohibited from charging you more because of your gender.

* No Annual or Lifetime Caps on Coverage: Insurance companies will be prevented from placing annual or lifetime caps on the coverage you receive.

* Extended Coverage for Young Adults: Children would continue to be eligible for family coverage through the age of 26.

* Guaranteed Insurance Renewal: Insurance companies will be required to renew any policy as long as the policyholder pays their premium in full. Insurance companies won't be allowed to refuse renewal because someone became sick.

[mvd]

43. Without a strong public option, though, these measures are just a band-aid

Eventually without real competition, insurance companies will find new ways to screw the American public.

I strongly think we need single payer, but we don't have the votes - plus, a strong public option is a breakthrough.

[DevonRex]

50. ICAM. nt

[John Q. Citizen]

46. My complaint is that I don't believe trading a mandate and subsidized private insurance is worth

guaranteed issue, modified community rating, and caps on annual or lifetime totals.

Guaranteed issue, full community rating and abolition of caps should be the basic law of the land, period. Unfair denial of payment or slow payment should carry treble penalties in municipal or state court, payable to the insured, just like a bounced check.

Instead congress is negotiating with criminals who have already bought the congress and we are getting screwed.

[invictus]

56. +1

[debbierlus]

61. Thank you. Basic simple points.

[depakid]

49. No need to holler

I can see what you you see, too.

Just as we can- if we're smart and look down the line, see how other folks look at things, too.

Sometimes- you gotta fight. Hard- and get plain old mean.

And that's especially true when dealing with dishonest individuals and organizations- 'cause they will bully reasonable people.

[Mimosa]

59. That's what MD friend says

My bud the MD remarked that Obama fears 'unemploying' near 2 million people who work in the health insurance industry as well as crashing the investment portfolios of middle class Americans who've invested in those corporations.

Never-the-less, I want the public option! I expect it, too, since it was promised.

[HughBeaumont]

93. It's just patently silly, though.

What does the President think, under Single Payer we're not going to NEED their positions? Someone still has to process all of the paperwork and online stuff for new arrivals, incoming, outgoing, etc. Someone still has to administer and manage the work. Rural availability is important, and you need administration there. Liasons will be needed during transition. It's not as if these people are going to be thrown out into the street. They'll just be working for a new employer - the American PEOPLE.

You ask me, Single Payer will create jobs because you'd have a guaranteed influx of paying customers.

[Teaser]

45. fail

.

[mvd]

47. No, I don't think there is a conspiracy here (at least where Obama is concerned)

Maybe he put a little too much trust in them when he negotiated, but the insurance industry sure is working AGAINST what he wants.

[TheKentuckian]

48. I disagree that Obama's motivation is to take care of the insurance companies

The central support for that argument seems to be that "We were NEVER allowed to discuss real reform with this President", which is bogus on the face we've been doing nothing else but discussing real reform. In fact, even the worst of the bills is further than we've ever contemplated before. Honestly, even just overhauling on the regulatory side would be real reform.
EVERYTHING we are looking at here is more substantial than what Clinton got smacked down on. You believe in single payer? Well, I do too but that doesn't mean it isn't silly and probably counter-productive to spend much, if any, time on a proposal that has less than 25% of your own side's support. Making the debate about something that very few support isn't genius and you don't begin a negotiation at impossible as it drives people to take their marbles and go home.

We were not told anything like we were children, in fact, we've not been talked to like we are reasoned creatures as consistently as Obama has since Carter. This is a situation of dealing with reality, the votes aren't there and can't even optimistically be manufactured without significant, no make that OVERWHELMING public pressure, which ain't happening. It is my opinion that it is impossible to spoken to as an adult when one is having a tantrum. When in the world does a measure that may get five votes in the Senate get a lot of focus?

You are holding the President to something he (nor any other serious candidate) never promised and using that as a hammer. Single payer was off the table way before Obama took office and I'd argue before he announced his candidacy but Obama wasn't the one to do but rather voters from all across the nation that have elected people that never gave even a headfake's worth of a hint that they'd ever go along with something of the scope of single payer.

Then you chose to further "strengthen" you arguments by making Obama responsible for the bailouts when you know good and well they've been going on before TARP was even passed.

I understand frustration at events but Obama is one of the few that are even remotely on our side and you're pretending that the man is the cause of the problems rather than doing what he can against huge opposition to get the people a little better shake. The people aren't giving the man cover to more and he is getting nothing much at all from anyone in the party at all other than from Dean, Sibelius, and a touch or two from Kerry.

I just think that it is pretty laughable that of all the players in this game that anyone would select Obama as the big problem. It's not the insurance lobbies, it's not the Republicans, it's not conservative Democrats, it's not the media ginning up bullshit, it's not Reich Wing media push fear at full bore, it's not a seemingly disinterested population that is firm as room temperature butter on reform. No, it is the only motherfucker even trying, it's so obvious.

[slipslidingaway]

51. Rec - AHIP and drug companies now running adds in support

of this reform for mandated insurance. AHIP was the group who attacked SICKO as detailed on the Bill Moyers program with Wendell Potter.

:(

People might not like to hear this, but I agree that the Obama administration set the tone for discussions at the WH summit.

Heck all they had to do was give them a seat at the table, never mind call on them to make a statement.

Silencing groups who pose the greatest challenge to the insurance companies does not produce a strong public option.

Look how the other side is negotiating health reform, they are running ads attacking a system that the Democrats have taken off the table!

Yet the Democrats start out saying "I'm in favor a single-payer system, but..." we'll never get that so I'll ask for less.

They discarded their greatest asset in this fight from the beginning..so then one has to ask WHY?


President Obama calls on Karen Ignagni of AHIP to speak on HC reform...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=385&topic_id=328837&mesg_id=328837

AHIP Takes Part in President Obama's Health Care Forum on March 5th.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gTFzG7Kaa4

Imagine if P. Obama had called upon Dr. Maria Angell to speak at the WH summit instead of Karen Ignagni, members of Congress might be pleading for a public option.

Examining the Single Payer Health Care Option: Marcia Angell Testimony
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQNphM6xUsE

Dr. Quentin Young, Longtime Obama Confidante and Physician to MLK, Criticizes Admin’s Rejection of Single-Payer Healthcare
http://www.democracynow.org/2009/3/11/dr_quentin_young_obama_confidante_and

Dr. Marcia Angell not invited to attend and therefore not called upon to speak, Conyers asked that two single-payer advocates be invited to attend....Dr. Quentin Young and Dr. Marcia Angell - his request was denied...

[debbierlus]

60. Amen. It is right there before our eyes. Obama is putting corporate interests above good reform

It is so obvious, this thread is becoming comical.

Our entire government has turned into a corporate fascist system and Obama isn't challenging it, he is trying to work within the broken framework.

But, that is the problem. It is BROKEN.

Profit above people simply can not make good health care reform. We need leadership on this issue, not a salesman trying to sell us reform written and promoted by the health care lobbyists and executives.

[slipslidingaway]

67. Watch who is included and who is excluded, who is marginalized

and who is misrepresented.

When people applauded a single-payer system during a discussion...

Obama: "Got the little single-payer advocates up here."

http://www.correntewire.com/obama_got_little_single_payer_advocates_here


Single-payer (HR 676) is not a government-run health care

:(

Public Option Not Single-Payer, Obama Says

http://www.texmed.org/Template.aspx?id=7812

"President Obama told American Medical Association delegates on June 15 that the Health Insurance Exchange Program, or public option, portion of his health system reform plan is not "a Trojan horse for a single-payer system."

"I'll be honest," he said in a speech to the annual AMA meeting in Chicago. "There are countries where a single-payer system may be working. But I believe – and I've even taken some flak from members of my own party for this belief – that it is important for us to build on our traditions here in the United States. So, when you hear the naysayers claim that I'm trying to bring about government-run health care, know this – they are not telling the truth."

[jeanpalmer]

101. Obama was loose with the facts

in his Q&A at the New Mexico town hall meeting. To say that Medicare and Medicaid are the "single biggest driver of our deficits" is not true.

Medicare is almost balanced in terms of income and outgo. In 2008, there was a slight deficit of about $4 billion. In the future, Medicare becomes a problem, but it isn't now. And when you factor in that Social Security had a $179 bilion surplus that is being spent as part of the general budget, you can see that these social programs do not drive the deficit. They pay for themselves with dedicated funds. So to include Medicare as a biggest driver of the deficit is a misrepresentation.

At the end of his comment, he caught himself and almost as an after thought included "defense" and "interest on the debt" in "the lion's share of the federal budget." And it's a good thing he did because those two are the real drivers of the deficit. Just the wars contribute $154+ billion to the deficits.

[ipaint]

69. Obama could have been that leadership.

He certainly saw the suffering and heard the stories from thousands of folks begging for help during his run for the white house. He chose not to be.
A strong public option was only possible if single payer had been put on the table at the start. And that is why it wasn't.

We will end up being legally forced to pay a private for profit business to access health care. Too many people support a public option so some neutered powerless version of that will be offered as show. The insurance companies will find a thousand different ways to get around their negotiated obligations and denial of care with the accompanied profits will once again flourish.

I am most amazed at the willingness of people to hand their jailers the key for good. The last 30 years of conservative politics and policies have taken their toll. Putting an incredibly abusive private business in the seat of legal gatekeeper in charge of access to health care is insane. Today without a mandate they do a worse than crappy job, bringing our health care system to it's knees. Giving them the kind of power a mandate hands over with no counter balance of a strong public option is suicide.

[debbierlus]

83. I know. The writing is on the wall

[PretzelWarrior]

55. blah blah blah. FAIL!!

stupid post. stupid premise. you obviously have exactly 0 years in legislative process.

[John Q. Citizen]

75. If that's your argument for mandates and publically subsidized private insurance no wonder no one

wants it.

If America wanted Romney care, we would have elected Romney, now wouldn't we?

[cali]

58. what bullsshit debbie dear.

stinks just as badly as the other shit you post. you may think you're a genius little mindreader, but you ain't.

[debbierlus]

63. Ah, Cali - closed door meeting since February with the health executives

A complete black out of the discussion of single payer

A complete black out of true reform activists from the negotiation table - s

Lobbyists for Big Pharm and Corporate Insurance championing Obama's reform (look in my journal for the link)

The public option being stripped down to a meaningless political gesture instead of real reform (Obama announces this as progress).

Ah, yes, Cali, Obama would never dream of putting corporate interest above real health care reform.

After all....just look at his economic policies....

:sarcasm:

This is just sad.

[debbierlus]

64. You know what? If people became as enraged about private insurance writing our health care policy

As they do about attacking me for pointing it out, we might stand a chance to reform this country.

[alcibiades_mystery]

66. The Martyr, ladies and gentlemen

The ten o'clock show is, unfortunately, always the same as the eight o'clock show.

[paulk]

68. pot meet kettle

[alcibiades_mystery]

70. LOL

Well, I certainly don't go around complaining about always being under attack. On the other hand, it would be fairly easy to predict any response from YOU on any crime issue whatsoever. So, cheers, pal.

[paulk]

71. "fairly easy to predict"

that's where you're wrong, and that's why your posts on this board are so generally worthless.

[alcibiades_mystery]

72. riiiiiiight

:thumbsup:

[debbierlus]

80. Oh please. Right now on the front page is a journal post exposing the death of a real public option

That death was described as 'progress' by Obama.

Progress.

And, that is sickening.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Faryn%20Balyncd/29

Obama should be standing up and DEMANDING a real public option. But, he proclaims progress.

And, thus confirms this post....I will say it again. CORPORATE SNAKEOIL SALESMAN.

This isn't about me. The leers, the insults...

whatever.

Look what happened today. Look what is happening before your eyes.

[Name removed]

85. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DevonRex]

73. Why would you deliberately bury your GOOD thread with this piece of shit? Hmmm?

Here was your good thread, which had a link and actual facts.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x8560260

That was worthy of discussion. Yet you apparently decided that it was better to post flamebait BULLSHIT just to piss everybody off, rather than have an actual discussion. Seems to me that you're doing a bait and switch here. Put a little good information out there so you can flame away to your little heart's content.

See, I can read minds, too. Just like you. :rofl:

[dionysus]

76. does this surprise you in any way JZ?

[DevonRex]

78. Nah, but it's fun to bat it around a little bit.

:rofl:

[anonymous171]

77. LOL

no

[dionysus]

82. sometime it's like you need to put on a rubber nose and clown white just to read these OPs

[johnaries]

84. Wrong. Obama HAS come out strongly for a public option. Several times.

[alcibiades_mystery]

87. The OP's dumb trick: Obama says "We're making progress" in negotiations

What else can he say? He means, of course, that they are not hopelessly stalled. But for the OP, who is an PUMA Obama hater forever, it means he is happy with ONE specific mark-up compromise among the many circulating bills and ideas, and this sdignals that he was always - and I'm quoting here - a "CORPORATE SNAKE OIL SALESMAN." What the OP means, of course, is that Obama is an upstart punk who jumped the line over Queen Hillary, but we all knew that already. The OP is a sham.

[natrat]

89. he is the president of the United States and this is his baby and its a huge corporate giveaway

i think most of the people on here supporting the current state of legislation are paid bloggers. This is such a simple issue and even uninformed people know right and wrong, SO FUCK YOU AGENT MIKE

[SemiCharmedQuark]

97. WTF are you talking about? Agent mike? What?

I think people have better things to do than pay people to post on a message board. That goes for any viewpoint.

[saltpoint]

90. Who you workin for?

[natrat]

91. why are health care stocks skyrocketing now ?

cuz these companies are about to be granted a monopoly with no regulation and a customer base that by law has to by the product regardless of its quality

[Mimosa]

94. Public option may be dead as a doornail? n/t

[natrat]

92. top ten

Top Ten Ways To Tell Your President & His Party Aren't Fighting For Health Care For Everybody

by BAR managing editor Bruce A. Dixon

Barack Obama and Democratic majorities in the House and Senate were swept into office on a promise they would deliver affordable and accessible health care for all Americans. But the corporate media journalism limits the national health care conversation to what insurance companies, drug companies, for-profit health care professionals, their executives, lobbyists and politicians of both parties and other hirelings have to say. So it isn't as easy as it ought to be to tell what the politicians are doing about accomplishing health care for everybody. Hence we offer these ten points. This is how you can tell whether your president and his party are fighting for the health care you deserve.

1.Their plan doesn't cover the uninsured till at least 2013.

2013 isn't “day one.” It's not even after the midterm election. It's clear after the president's second term, if he gets one. Congress passed Medicare in 1965 and president Lyndon Johnson rolled out coverage for millions of seniors in eleven months, back in the days before they even had computers.

22,000 Americans now perish each year because they can't get or can't afford medical care, and this year three quarter million personal bankruptcies will be triggered by unpayable medical bills. Why this president and these Democrats are in such a hurry to pass health care now that doesn't take effect till two elections down the road doesn't make sense in any kind of good way.

2.Their “public option” isn't Medicare, won't bring costs down and will only cover about 10 million people.

The “public option” was sold to the American people as Medicare-scale plan open to anybody who wants in that would compete with the private insurers and drive their costs downward. But in their haste not to bite the hands that feed them millions in campaign contributions each hear, the president and his party have scaled the public option back from a Medicare-sized 130 million to a maximum of 10 million, too small to put cost pressure in private insurers. Worse still, the president and his party are playing bait-and-witch, not telling the public they have reduced the public option, to nearly nothing.

This remnant of a public option is not Medicare, as Howard Dean insists, and it will not lead to the sort of everybody-in-nobody-out health care system that most Americans, whenever they are surveyed say they want.

Some Senate and House Democrats want to ditch even the pretense of a “public option” in favor of something they're calling a private insurance “co-op”, which as near as anybody can tell has the same relationship to an actual cooperative that clean coal has to actual coal.

3.The president and his party have already caved in to the drug companies on reimporting Canadian drugs, on negotiating drug prices downward and on generics.

This explains why Big Pharma, the same people who ran the devastatin g series of anti-reform “Harry and Louise” ads to spike the Clinton-era drive to fix health care are spending $100 million to run Obama ads using the president's language about “bipartisan” solutions to health care reform.

4.The president and his party have received more money from private insurers and the for-profit health care industry than even Republicans, with the president alone taking $19 million in the 2008 election cycle alone, more than all his Repubican, Democratic and independent rivals combined.

Democratic senator Max Bacaus got $1.1 million in 2008. Democratic senators Harkin, Landreau and Rockerfeller each got over half a million, and Senator Durbin got just under half a million. Other Democratic senators got a little less. Four Democrats in the House, Rangel, Dinglell, Udall and Hoyer got over half a million apiece in 2008, with other Democrats not far behind.

Is there any wonder that the insurance companies, like the drug companies are also running “bipartisan health care reform” commercials using the president's exact language?

5.The president's plan, and those of Republicans and Democratic blue dogs too, will require families to purchase health insurance policies from private insurers.

This is something the policy wonks call an 'individual mandate”, under which Individuals will be “mandated” to purchase affordable insurance, though companies would not be required to offer it. In Massachusetts, the prototype state for the Obama plan, a family with an income of $33,000 can be required to spend $9,000 in deductibles and out-of-pocket expenses before the insurance company is obligated to pay a dime. As in Massachusetts, public money is used to purchase private insurance for the very poorest citizens. With the revenues of insurance companies on the decline, individual mandate programs are a welcome bailout for the private insurance industry.

6.The president's plan, and those of Republicans and Democratic blue dogs too, could force you to buy junk insurance.

Think about an insurance policy that costs a lot, but is full of loopholes, exceptions and steep deductibles and co-payments. That's junk insurance, and for many it's the only insurance companies offer. Even more pernicious is the widespread practice among insurance companies of “recission” in which claimants are routinely investigated and disqualified in the event that they finally make a claim. Insurance companies admit they do this to half of one percent of policies per year. That means if you hold a health insurance policy twenty years, you don;t have insurance – you have a ninety percent chance of having insurance.

7.The president's plan, as well as those of Democratic “blue dogs” and Republicans, are to be funded in part with cuts in Medicare and Medicaid.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x467605


FUCK YOU AGENT MIKE you piece of shit

[Name removed]

95. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[stranger81]

96. As it currently stands, this bill is nothing more than a giveaway to the insurance industry

Mandating everyone purchase private, for-profit insurance while at the same time eliminating any public option and racheting down what were very meager subsidies to begin with = SUCK CITY. May as well have asked Blue Cross or Anthem to write the bill themselves (assuming, of course, that they didn't).

Why anyone but the most insipid incrementalists think this is a step in the right direction is beyond me. Apparently, the right direction involves turning over your last dime to the private insurance companies.

[Honeycombe8]

99. I disagree. Obama has indeed stood firmly for a public option.

He has done so several times, that I've seen. I think what you may mean is that he hasn't said what Bush would've said, "It's either my way or the highway. If Congress sends me a bill w/o a public option, I'll veto it. No ifs, ands, or buts." That's not the way Obama speaks.

I know of no meeting between the ins. cos. and Obama. Do you?

I know of no instance where Obama has met with the Senate committee to hash out the details of the bill. It is the Senate's bill, not Obama's.

I expect that Rahm is passing on to the committee what the administration wants in the bill. But it's the Senate committee's job to draft its own bill; it does no good for several Dems to refuse to compromise on points that the other side will not compromise on, either.

It's a conundrum. I would think the thing to do is for the W.H. to bend the arms of the Blue Dogs, quietly, behind closed doors. This is how the Republicans got Lindsay Graham to fall in line (Graham was against the Iraq War and said so; then suddenly, he no longer would say that, after a hint of him being investigated was leaked to the press. Voila. No further mention of an investigation. And no further mention by Graham of that awful Iraq War.)

I think that's how it's done.

[and-justice-for-all]

100. I second that

I have never heard him state otherwise.

[Dawgs]

105. FAIL.

Blaming Obama for fighting to get universal healthcare with a government option is so old school.

[earth mom]

106. The denial stinks to high heaven here on GD-P!

What's so amazing about people defending the shit Obama's pulling now with Health Care is that it's going to bite them in the ass someday!

Just wait until health insurance companies take a HUGE percentage of everyone's paycheck in the near future and there's not a damn thing any of us can do about it.

Then the whining, bitching and complaining will start.

Told you so.