No democrat should throw themself on the "public option" sword

[cleveramerican]

there is no scenario where passing nothing makes us look good.

we don't need any martyrs

we need statesmanship

[cali]

1. what? so simply passing any legislation, even if it's bad, is the answer?

Hardly. statesmanship? we need dems to do the right thing and provide real healthcare reform. I don't think that's possible without a viable public option.

[cleveramerican]

2. if the votes aren't there....

you take what you can get right now
fall back re-group and live to fight another day

what is accomplished by opposing the lesser watered down version?
is getting nothing good for anybody?

[cali]

3. I disagree. Bad legislation is not better than nothing.

forcing people to buy insurance without providing them with a public option is not better than nothing. And guess what? The votes aren't there for a bill without the public option either. Anyone who thinks that repukes in the House and Senate will vote in meaningful numbers for any plan backed by Obama, is simply deluding him/herself. And the progressive caucus won't vote for legislation without a public option.

[elocs]

9. Also, does less than perfect healthcare reform necessarily=bad legislation?

On the other hand, Democrats are deluded if they believe that compromising with Republicans and making concessions will help pass healthcare reform because the Republicans will vote against it anyways. If the positions were reversed, and Republicans held power and wanted legislation pass, they would make it so. If only Democrats could do this.

[cleveramerican]

41. news flash: its other democrats being compromised with

you push for what you want
and you push hard
but if you fail to convince enough to win
you don't go down with the ship
you suck it up and support the president.


its a bitter pill to swallow for some here, I know

[Freddie Stubbs]

15. We do not know what the final legislation is going to look like

Perhaps we should withhold judgement until it becomes clear what the bill contains.

[cali]

17. sorry, I can't support a bill without a public option.

it's that simple for me.

[Freddie Stubbs]

19. Even if it does not contain a mandate for people to get insurance?

What if it was just a bill which prohibited insurance companies from denying coverage for preexisting conditions? Would such a bill be a bad thing?

[cali]

21. it wouldn't necessarily be bad, but it would almost certainly not be meaningful

reform and the insurance companies would be sure to find loopholes to screw people.

[Joe Bacon]

33. The SNOWE JOB will give corporations everything

The SNOWE JOB forces everyone to buy policies

The SNOWE JOB allows corporations to keep 35¢ of every premium dollar

The SNOWE JOB allows corporations to charge 5X the standard rate for people with preexisting conditions.

The SNOWE JOB gives low income people a subsidy to pay for their junk policies.

The SNOWE JOB still allows beancounters to deny care.

Oh, and don't forget, THE SNOWE JOB has a trigger that will get pulled in the same manner as the Medicare D Trigger wasn't pulled.

If this is all you can get on the Federal Level, screw them. I'll work to elect a governor in California who will sign single payer. If the rest of the nation wants to teabag, fine with me.

[jefferson_dem]

18. Not bad...but less good perhaps.

A bit of "reform" can actually be realized without the public option.

Sorry.

[MannyGoldstein]

4. We Have The Presidency And Both Houses of Congress

If we can't pass something good, then we absolutely deserve to look bad.

[jerryster]

8. Agreed.

We voted in large numbers for a Democratic President and solid majorities in the House and Senate. Sad to say, but can you imagine what Republicans would do if they had the three? They would just steamroll whatever legislation they wanted. Their attitude would be that they had a mandate and the hell with the other side. What do we do with a mandate on this most important issue? Squander it. And if the President doesn't think that the Republicans will use the town hall bully mentality for the rest of his term he's living in a fantasy world all his own. Once the bully finds out he can take your lunch money he will take it every day.

[bvar22]

14. Not only that, but...

...the Democrats also own overwhelming Public Support for REAL reform including a STRONG Public Option.

They have no more excuses.
They either produce REAL reform,
or admit Nader was right.

[AzDar]

34. +1

[bklyncowgirl]

5. Great, then how do you force competition among insurance companies?

It seems to me that without the public plan what we get is a huge transfer of wealth from the American taxpayer to the insurance companies with little gotten in return.

The insurance companies get the currently uninsured but have no obligation that is not easily circumvented to hold down costs. The taxpayers get the bills.

How is this reform?

[DrDan]

6. so . . . passing a repub bill does make us look good?????

when everyone knows it will be a repub bill?

Might as well have the repubs in-charge.

[cali]

7. the repubs won't vote for a bill backed by Obama. period. oh, maybe

Snowe will and a handful of others, but that's not enough. the compromise shit is aimed at the blue dogs.

[DrDan]

11. of course it is aimed at the bd's - but it in essense a repub bill

they will get any major changes they want in the bill - or removed

Wednesday will be the test.

[cleveramerican]

42. Passing nothing means we are hopelessly inept.

why are you calling it a republican bill when no republicans are anywhere near it.

even the lesser watered down version is all ours.

[eridani]

10. There is such a scenario

Passing something that makes the situation worse.

[asdjrocky]

12. So let's let the tiny minority of pugs write all the bills.

Seriously, how hard is it to take your lunch money?

[Becky72]

13. A "sword" supported by 55% and opposed by 41%?

Sometimes we liberals want to get our asses kicked.

[AllentownJake]

16. So 10 corporate democrats

and the RW wins because we cave again.

Wonderful.

We need to drive the snakes from our party.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

20. Agreed

However, I tend to believe that people won't ultimately feel the need to "throw themselves on the sword" over the PO, especially since it's entirely possible that Obama may still deliver it or possibly something better. Expanding Medicare would be an even better solution in my book. Regardless of whether he's "wavered" on the entity known as a "public option" throughout this whole process or not, it should be clear to anybody paying attention that he wants choice and competition, something the private insurance industry has been unable to produce so far (and he knows this), and if, as Axelrod supposedly put it, that the PO is "gone" but that it's "spirit" is still alive, it's entirely possible that he might well have come up with an even better idea for meeting this principles and I highly doubt that it is anything as simple or straightforward as a mandated "bailout" of private insurance companies as some people here cynically tend to believe. At any rate, I guess we will find out next(?) week what is REALLY happening and who needs to "eat crow". Whatever happens I just don't believe it will be anything that will have been worth all of this angst (although creating a little angst may not have been a bad idea if it helps build more pressure).

[Chef Eric]

22. That's not very clever, cleveramerican. Not very accurate, either.

And why are you framing the issue with ridiculous terminology? A public option "sword"?? Where did you come up with that? That sounds like something Joe Lieberman might say.

[cleveramerican]

43. it just rolls off the tongue.. don't it?

[Mystayya]

23. Just more spin

[RememberWellstone]

24. bullschitt, we have/had the votes

Time to make it happen or walk the phuk away..no more capitulation, the President needs to tell congress vote it in or I'll make you are voted out. Period or don't vote at all!:evilgrin:

[ShortnFiery]

25. I am and that's where I'm staying ... If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything.

For far too many election cycles I've been told "centrism" = "corporatisim" is the only way.

It's not left or right nor GOP vs. Democratic, it's "The Corporations vs. The People."

What side are you on?

No way do I continue to support fascism JUST BECAUSE they wear "a velvet glove" of "D" that masks the full realization of Neo-liberalism.

Newsflash: The corporations run both parties (GOP and Blue Dog Democrats).

[Vidar]

26. Anything without a public option is simply welfare for the insurance companies, which don't need it.

[gkhouston]

27. Not true. A bill that mandated the purchase of private insurance but provided

no meaningful reform would be a gift to the insurance industry and a nightmare for everyone else. That would be worse than no bill.

[Freddie Stubbs]

28. What if the bill provided for co-ops?

:shrug:

[Joe Bacon]

29. Blue Cross started as a co-op

See where that got them. Nowhere.

[WeDidIt]

32. Co-ops have been tried, and failed.

No public option makes this a mandated transfer of wealth from the middle class and working poor to the insurance companies.

[gkhouston]

37. A menu of shit choices. n/t

[harun]

30. The options are H.R. 676 or a Strong Public option. The rest of the Public Option

bill is FULL of Corporate Welfare to the for-profit insurers. Like making tons of young people without insurance pay in to get insurance. It is a huge revenue boost for the for-profits. It is a giveaway to the for-profits to make them happy.

There is no chance in hell the Congressional Progressive Caucus will pass anything in the House that doesn't have a strong public option. Unless of course it is H.R. 676. Which they would be more than happy to pass.

[WeDidIt]

31. No bill is better tha abill without a public option

If HR3200 is passed wihtout a public option, IT WILL MAKE MATTERS WORSE!!!

It's nothing but a massive mandated welath transfer from teh middle class and working poor to the insurance companies if there is no public option.

[cleveramerican]

44. you are dead wrong

and after consensus is reached
you will come around

[Pharlo]

35. 'statesmanship' my ass, we need LEADERSHIP

If the current regime is too incompetent to lead decisively, we look for representatives who can. Why should 'the public good' ALWAYS be sacrificed for 'the corporate greed'?

Those who promote 'statesmanship' need to realize that what is good for corporations is not always what is best for society as a whole. And, it's issues like health care that drive that fact home for a lot of people like no other issue will.

The problem is NOT the progressive/liberal view. The problem is the lack of leadership on this issue. Particularly from the White House. There are 435 members of the House of Representatives and 100 Senators. I expect 535 different opinions from them. From the White House, I expect ONE clear concise message. I have not been getting it. Sec. Sibelius, Axelrod, Emmanual, Obama, 'White House officials'....... running the gamut from supporting the public option to not quite certain if they do or not. Unacceptable leadership. They need to come out with ONE message and shout it from the rooftops.

And, in my opinion, that message NEEDS to be "Public Option IS the compromise! If the centrists and conservatives can't live with that, we'll go single payer."

I feel strongly enough about this that I don't give a damn what 'political party' they claim to belong to. They are either for us or against us. And, by 'us', I mean everyone subject to the whimsical vagaries of the private health insurance death panels. Those who have government subsidized health care or sufficient personal wealth to make health care costs inconsequential are NOT 'us'.

Personally, I think this is going to be the defining issue that determines whether or not the Republican party lives or goes the way of the Whig Party. They have reached the point now where they consist, for the most part, of the lunatic fringe. Most clear thinking traditional Republicans have jumped ship and are in the process of trying to take over the Democratic Party. The health care issue will determine if they succeeded. If they have, many progressive/liberals will leave the Democratic Party and either adopt an existing party or create a new political party. It may take a generation to get established, but, one thing many progressives will not do is 'compromise' their lives away for the bottom line of private insurance companies.

[ProSense]

36. What BS! There is no sword. An overwhelming majority of Americans support a public option.

Every Democrat should be behind it 100 percent. If you think this is about their careers, you're part of the problem.

[Phx_Dem]

38. Amen. We shouldn't give up, but in the end something is better than nothing.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

39. LOL. nt

[freddie mertz]

40. Statesmanshipmeans being willing to lose if the alternative is something even WORSE

Than the status quo.

Which the trigger option is.