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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 05:17 PM
Original message
Question for anti-Chavez people on DU
Given that conventional "representative democracy" of the sort we have here is showing itself, once again, to be permanently biased against the poor, the workers, the sick and the dispossessed, why do you want it in Venezuela?

Doesn't our situation possibly make the case that something like the local councils Chavez has brought in and something like direct democracy without corporate advertising might possibly be the way to go in the future?

Why force the people of Venezuela to stay within the limits that are ruining lives here?
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billyoc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 05:21 PM
Response to Original message
1. Because the United States of America is the greatest force for good that the world has ever known.
Any country that doesn't want to be like the United States of America is evil, or at best, stupid.


Just wanted to get the honest, unvarnished, anti-Chavez line out there.
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Billy Burnett Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #1
32. America is to the world what the RW is to America.
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robo50 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 05:22 PM
Response to Original message
2. Interesting question! Tell us how it would work, and how
we would deal with a local council full of screaming Republican Right Wing Religious fanatics, the kind that seem to be supported by the corporations and PAC and all here.

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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. You're assuming the right would control those councils
We've often been able to elect very progressive local governments.

We'd need campaign finance reform to make all of it work, of course, and much more mobilization to get that.

But doesn't the current healthcare debate prove that progressives and the working-class Rainbow majority are always gonna get screwed under our existing political model? Why stay with something that's always, for the rest of eternity, going to be rigged against us?
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robo50 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #4
16. I am assuming the right will not be taken out and shot, so they might "control"
Edited on Fri Sep-04-09 06:09 PM by robo50
these meetings as much as they shouted down Democrats at town meetings all summer...or did you miss that part of what is reality in America right now?

The right wing nuts who wave the flag and have not a brain in their head would NOT "control" by numbers, but by foolish tactics.

Also, Chavez doesn't have Fixed Noise TV to contend with.
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #2
10. I don't think it would work here.
But here is not there.
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movonne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 05:25 PM
Response to Original message
3. I agree 100%...I believe some here find there news from USA msm
about Chavez...he is a leftist and that what his country voted in and we have done every thing to bring him down...He may not be what we want but the majority of his county wants him..as far I read his county is doing better..
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 05:32 PM
Response to Original message
5. Problems in the US don't justify cults and oppression elsewhere.
It's a logical error to think as such.
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Chavez doesn't have a cult. He just has a lot of people who are sincerely loyal to him
because the guy has helped them make their lives better. It's weird how gringos always act like it's inherently illegitimate for a left-wing leader to have popular support.

And there hasn't been all that much repression in Venezuela, certainly not enough for the guy to be likened to Castro or an East European Stalinist. And there especially hasn't been anything there that was so terrible that it would justify a 1989-style right-wing counterrevolution that gets rid of the good with the bad. Eastern Europe just needed political democracy. The West had no right to force it to go capitalist. And making Venezuela go right-wing is what those who hysterically denounce Chavez are about.

And again I ask...why insist on narrow, white European-style "representative" democracy as the only model that's acceptable for Venezuela, especially since powdered-wing style Congresses of the sort the anti-chavistas want always leave the poor, the workers and the multicultural majority out in the cold. Venezuela would gain nothing from being run like the U.S. was in 1789.
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #7
15. "[L]oyal to him"
That says it all, really. Loyalty to a man. That's what makes it a cult.

The racism dripping from your post speaks volumes about your perspectives.
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Loyal to the Bolivarian movement as well. "Loyal to him" was a figure of speech
And I'm amazed you don't see the irony, given the "cult" accusations made against the candidate we elected, of your accusing any other political leader of having a cult. BTW, there are still people all over this country who have pictures of FDR and JFK and LBJ in their homes. They still feel loyalty to those men. They still thank those men for helping change their lives for the better. Are THEY part of a cult?

And what racism are you talking about? Those rallies are going to be all-white. It's only the white Venezuelans who want Chavez out. That's simply political reality.
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. I think it was your use of the word "gringo" dude.
Meanwhile, I'm a Kerrycrat. But I wouldn't call me a cultist. I'm sure most people have a shrine to the man in their homes. They just don't talk about it. Perfectly normal...
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. "gringos" refers to anyone who is a U.S. citizen. As I am a U.S. citizen myself
the expression wasn't even derogatory, let alone racist.
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Well, your description of how "gringos always act" wasn't exactly flattering
Why use the word if you weren't going for something negative.

Weird as well that you talk about how gringos ALWAYS act if you are one, and you clearly don't act that way.

Yer choice of words probably could use some tweaking. Just sayin'.
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. OK...I should maybe have said "the kind of gringos who end up in power in this country"
n/t.
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roody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #18
26. Someone who went to Venezuela told me that
they scream for him like a rock star. What a cool cult.
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Billy Burnett Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #26
33. You've never been to an Obama rally. People screaming and weeping like he's a rock star..
Are you going to call supporters of President Obama a cult too?

Some people say so, just like you have attributed to the supporters of democratically elected President Chavez.

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noamnety Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #15
27. 'Loyalty to a man. That's what makes it a cult."
Edited on Sat Sep-05-09 12:03 AM by noamnety
says the person with Obama's image attached to every post they make. :D
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 02:48 AM
Response to Reply #27
29. You caught that, didja?
:evilgrin:
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. We were ALL trying to avoid going there...
:eyes:
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. If an institutional structure is broken here why should we use it
as a standard for judging other people's institutions?

I believe that was the OP's question.
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. There isn't a single, monumental, structure in play.
The USSR had great unemployment numbers, after all.
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Well sure, and that is the point.
We should not simply attempt to map our flawed institutions onto what others have and declare theirs 'good' or 'bad' based on the fit.
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 05:39 PM
Response to Original message
6. Venezuela has not abolished representative democracy.
But they are certainly attempting to deeply reform it, to push the kleptocracy out of its lockhold on media outlets, for example, to augment it with more local and participatory structures, with direct democracy at the local level, and to actively work against the efforts of the former elites and their foreign backers to sabotage the economy and wreck the work being done.

Totalitarian leftwing regimes frequently apply a veneer of 'direct participatory democracy' over their institutions of control and regimentation. This is certainly something we progressives here who support Chavez, who support the Bolivarian experiment in 21st century social democracy should be wary of. If Venezuela falls into authoritarianism, which it hasn't, we should not be afraid to admit that their attempt to do it right has failed. Our support should not be blind.

That said, the rightwing fools here who are salivating at every iota of information that can possibly be interpreted as a stalinist transformation of the republic are intolerable. Do not expect honest answers.


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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. I agree that the haven't abolished representative democracy
They just haven't accepted the argument that they need to limit themselves to that.

I'd agree that we'd need to speak out if Venezuela ended up like Cuba. The best way to prevent that, however, is to push for complete normalization of relations between the U.S. and Venezuela. It's very unlikely that Cuba would have taken the path it took if the U.S.(including the Kennedy Administration)hadn't been obsessed with restoring the old order and putting Lucky Luciano back in his casino.
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. I agree.
Our role is to do what we do here, for example, to push back against the endless demonization of Venezuela and other progressive leftwing regimes in latin america. My view is that they are our last best hope.
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #6
14. This bit right here
"This is certainly something we progressives here who support Chavez, who support the Bolivarian experiment in 21st century social democracy should be wary of. If Venezuela falls into authoritarianism, which it hasn't, we should not be afraid to admit that their attempt to do it right has failed. Our support should not be blind."

Indeed. That's all I'm saying. And I'm glad you're aware of the possibility. That alone lends credence to your words and your support of Chavez's work.
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 09:59 PM
Response to Original message
22. And as expected not one of the falange has shown up.
They are not interested in discussion.
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. And some of 'em STILL think they were right for backing the Contras in the Eighties
...just sayin'...
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 10:06 PM
Response to Original message
23. What I like most about the Bolivarian Revolution is that it is innovative, creative,
flexible and pragmatic--qualities that are fostered by democracy--and it is not doctrinaire, ideological or rigid. Doctrinaire, ideological and rigid can happen in a lot of difference systems--from far right to far left. Democracy provides important safeguards to keep the society innovative, creativie, flexible and pragmattic, and when those safeguards are corrupted--as with the need here to have a million dollars in hand even to think about running for Congress, and the takeover of our vote counting system by rightwing corporations using 'TRADE SECRET,' PRORPIETARY programming code with virtually no audit/recount controls, and the corpo/fascist monopoly of news and opinion--the society slides into the perils of "doctrinaire, ideological and rigid," as our system is doing. There is nothing more doctrinaire than a corpo/fascist spouting "free market" theology, nor more ideological than our rightwing on any topic (which is given a big trumpet by the corpo/fascist media, far beyond their actual numbers), nor more rigid than our system of corporate lobbying/campaign contribution control of our government, which has blocked all progressive change.

The Bolivarian Revolution might get doctrinaire, ideological and rigid but it is not those things now. It is a newly inspired, widespread, leftist democracy movement that is characterized by maximum citizen participation, grass roots organization, and goals of social justice, sovereignty (especially visa vis the US and our global corporate predators--including the World Bank/IMF), and cooperative economies--a truly remarkable development, both as it has manifested in ALBA (the Venezuelan-organized barter trade group) and UNASUR (the all-South American "common market"). The Bolivarian Revolution has been energizing, participatory and creative, wherever it has arisen--most notably in Venezuela, Bolivia and Ecuador--and in its influence on Brazil, Argentina, Paraguay, Uruguay, Nicaragua, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras (where the rich oligarchy used a military coup to halt its progress), and, to some extent Chile. It is also influencing grass roots leftist movements within countries like Mexico and Peru, that currently have rightwing "free trade for the rich" governments and large US taxpayer donations to the military and the police. Both those countries may toss out their rightwing governments in the next election cycle.

One interesting innovation is in Bolivia, where the new constitution at long last acknowledge the equal rights of the indigenous (the majority in the country), and created provisions for various indigenous groups to largely govern themselves, and also protected the coca leaf (a highly nutritious traditional medicine used in teas and for chewing) and decriminalized its use. The Morales government does not tolerate cocaine trafficking and associated crime, but it is flexible enough to make the important distinction between cocaine and coca leaves. This is clearly a people-oriented policy--as are many Morales policies. The government does not engage in the stupid, fascist ideology of the "war" on drugs.

All of these new leaders have flexible economic policies--a mix of capitalism and socialism--with strong goals of use of the country's resources to help the people who live there, and social justice. The socialist goals have in no way retarded Venezuela's business climate, which saw a sizzling nearly 10% economic growth over the last five years (2003-2008), with the most growth in the private sector (not including oil), while the Chavez government managed to save $43 billion in international cash reserves. Venezuela had a head start on intelligent people running the government. They were the first, and have been the most embattled with the US, because the US imposes stupid government run by fascist criminals. All Latin American countries are still recovering from US-dictated bad government. Venezuela was in the vanguard of breaking free of those restraints, so it is doing very well.

The Chavez government has a goal of participatory democracy. They encourage it in many ways. And they and all the Bolivarians have a different sense of power--or the organization of power--than anything I've read about anywhere else, or historically. They really, truly believe that the strength of the Bolivarian Revolution is in diffuse power--power dispersed among community councils and various social groups. But Venezuela's basic government structure is similar to ours--a strong presidency, a representative legislature, etc., on national issues--and that is generally true of them all. They are trying to bend and mold the representative democracy system to the purpose of empowering the most people.

One other VERY notable characteristic of this remarkable leftist democracy movement: TRANSPARENT elections! Individual activists and civic groups and the OAS and other election monitoring groups (including the Carter Center) have done long hard work on Latin America's democratic institutions. It tells. And we really can't expect serious progressive change here until we have a well-functioning representative democracy, which means transparent vote counting--the only way to get to step 2, public financing of campaigns, and step 3, re-regulation of our public airwaves for fairness and balance in political commentary. Our representatives have become virtually deaf to us. We can't get them to throw the private (rightwing!) corporations out of our voting system. We can't get them to throw the goddamned insurance corps out of our medical care system. We are severely handicapped because our representatives do NOT represent us--and the only way to remedy that is to regain the power to elect someone who WILL represent us.

It is important to note that all of these innovative, creative, leftist governments are operating in a context of corpo/fascist media that is worse than our own! The key is TRANSPARENT VOTE COUNTING. Then you have the power to start reforming the media, and campaign finance, and so on. We simply don't have the power to change our system to participatory democracy. We have to start with what we have--representative democracy--and go back to fundamentals, such as counting all the votes in public view.

Participatory democracy can be, and is, used to organize causes and groups in our system, but the effectiveness of people-run movements (against the wars, or for health care, etc.) is almost entirely blockaded by the filthy corruption of our campaigns, greatly compounded by our having lost almost all transparency in the vote counting to rightwing corporations (an extremely dangerous situation).

I'd say we need to learn the NUMBER ONE LESSON of the Bolivarian Revolution: You have to be able to elect good people--and that means taking special care with how votes are counted and other election rules.. You can't have positive and progressive change without good public officials, as things are presently constituted in most countries of the world. And transparent vote counting is the first condition necessary to electing good people. We don't have that. It's gone. And most Latin American countries DO have it. That is the difference.
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SidneyCarton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 11:23 PM
Response to Original message
25. Frankly, I couldn't care less about Venezuela.
I do not care for Chavez, but that has more to do with his persona and his histrionics. I am leery of his policies against the press, but that's life in Latin America, where character assassinations, are often he precursors to outright assassination.

The Venezuelans are welcome to Chavez, and Chavez is welcome to Venezuela. They can ruin their country in their way, we're doing a bang-up job of wrecking ours.
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niceypoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #25
28. It all goes back to colonialism
Edited on Sat Sep-05-09 12:34 AM by niceypoo
...and the ruin that neoliberal economic policies have wreaked upon Latin Americas. There is a book that is required reading for every student in Latin American countries, 'Open veins of Latin America.' Reading that wonderful book puts the whole thing into historical perspective.

I would recommend it to anyone.

Having said all that I think Chavez is an assclown. You would think they could find a messiah that at least doesn't act like a buffoon.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 12:56 AM
Response to Original message
31. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Edited on Mon Sep-07-09 12:56 AM by Odin2005
The ONLY justified reason for radicalism and revolution is to create or restore Liberal Democracy, never to establish a revolutionary utopia ideological state, the latter type of revolutions ALWAYS results in totalitarianism, because any critics of the utopian ideologues are suppressed as "enemies of the revolution".
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