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Part of the problem is that Democrats are really two parties

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liberalpragmatist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 10:40 PM
Original message
Part of the problem is that Democrats are really two parties
To an extent this has always been true, and in some ways, the departure of the old-school Dixiecrats has left the two remaining wings much more closely aligned. Still, we're split between a true progressive wing, and a center-right, Southern and rural wing.

In many ways, the negotiations between congressional Democrats resemble old-school bipartisan discussions. Except that all the moderates are now in the same party as the liberals. The Republicans basically have almost no moderates left.
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 10:46 PM
Response to Original message
1. I really don't know what a moderate is anymore
or what being a moderate means.

There seems to be no specific idealogy to the moderates other than to the monied/corporate interest in the country.

True Conservatives are bad for the monied interest because it would mean a loss of their funding. Virtually every fortune 500 corporation is subsidized by the federal government in some way.

True liberals would mean an increase in taxation and a removal of the outsourced services to be provided by career public servants.

Moderates I guess means corporatist.
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baldguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 10:50 PM
Response to Original message
2. I am not a member of any organized party — I am a Democrat.
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NoPasaran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 11:16 PM
Response to Original message
3. Democrats deride Republicans for marching in lockstep
And then go ballistic when other Democrats won't fall into line.
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Not sure who's deriding them for that
Edited on Fri Sep-04-09 11:20 PM by depakid
Or why anyone would. They're successful in getting their policies in place- even they're unpopular (sometimes extremely so).

Democrats on the other hand are routinely failures- even when their policies enjoy overwhelming public support.

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stray cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. I actually like people I elect to be capable of thought - what good is it if we follow
any leader with a R or D next to their name off a cliff? If the congress and senate would have been capable or real leadership or independent thought we wouldn't have Bush's tax cuts or the war in Iraq. Thankfully a few were capable of thought and they didn't take away SS by giving a check to put in the stock market.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. But if you think a Dem could lead us over a cliff
If you think that is possible, are you really a Dem?

What cliff would any Dem lead us over that would be as high as one a Repuke would?

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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. Here's two cliffs:
1) Bailing out the failed Wall Street Bankers WITHOUT demanding serious regulatory changes that will prevent it from happening again. NOTHING has changed.
Too Big to Fail in now the Holy Grail of US Corporations.
It opens the door to Private Profits and Taxpayer bailouts for losses.

2)Escalating the insane war in Afghanistan.
There is NO possible GOOD outcome.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #4
12. There is a point where we have to put whatever it is aside and march
in lockstep. Not sure why that is bad in and of itself. Especially when we are fighting people who do.

It is scary how close this country came under Bush and Cheney. It's a relief they didn't get farther and McJerk did not get elected. But that they got so close shows the value of working toward goals rather than crying about how they aren't reached yet.
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kurt_cagle Donating Member (294 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 12:50 AM
Response to Original message
5. Evolving Political Realignment
The religious right and hard core conservatives are Traditionalists, part of a movement that emerged originally in the 1870s in the South and Midwest. As a movement, they are fading, and will probably be gone completely in about 20-30 years. The business wing of the Republican Party (and Democratic Party) were primarily centered along the Connecticut/Massachusetts/Urban New York corridor, and were actually fairly progressive in the 1950s - these are Moderns, pro-business, measuring progress by business growth and very strongly pro-corporatist. By the mid-1970s, a fair amount of these had ended up in the Democratic side of the equation, making up the centrist wing of the party.

Meanwhile, a lot of the civil rights movements that had been strong in the 1960s had ended up shifting increasingly to localized culture change rather than political change, and had also, in many cases, ended up taking advantage of technological social networking technology in the 1980s and 1990s to ultimately end up re-emerging as the progressive wing of the Democratic party (these are Cultural Creatives, and are made up primarily of information workers, writers, librarians, teachers, activists, psychologists and environmentalists). They are, in general, much more of the belief that action should take place at the local level, that communication and network oriented social structures are key to the future and that many of the problems that currently exist have to do with too heavily centralized authority and hierarchical distribution, whether in government, business or education.

My own suspicion is that the struggle of hierarchicalists vs. distributivists will end up being the dominant struggle of the 21st century. This will end up causing an interesting re-alignment, in which Progressives are increasingly going to be finding common cause with both Austrian School Libertarians (the Ron Paul crowd) and even social conservatives that are disgusted with the degree to which large government AND large business are destroying their way of life. This will be especially over the next twenty to thirty years as a more Distributivist social system begins to emerge from the wreckage of the economy and as the existing "Republican Religious Right" dies off (which it is in the midst of doing now, due primarily to old age - most of the leaders of that movement are now in their late 60s and 70s.

What this means is that in the next decade, the Democratic Party will likely fracture along different lines, and a distributivist party will emerge as part of that.

Obama's in an awful position at this stage - these divisions are clearly visible. By inclination, he's likely more progressive than centrist, but the reality is that his own party is clearly under a huge degree of stress, and he's having to balance one against the other in order to get his agenda passed, all the while dealing with the disintegrating edifice left by Bush. Personally, I think that he made a tactical mistake in thinking that the banks and the corporatists would in fact cooperate with him once the initial crisis was at least staunched (and I really question Raum being his chief of staff, as Raum is very much a corporatist and is no doubt at least establishing the agenda to favor the centrists moneyed interests). Now its forced him into a position that's left the festering wound of the banking crisis detract from the health care reforms while simultaneously trying desperately not to be painted as a socialist by the Republican wing of the Corporatist party.


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stray cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 08:50 AM
Response to Original message
6. Republicans certainly are but they are smarter - they know how to work together
to get things done. Dems just like to form circular firing squads. The GOP is not a monolithic group either - just smarter in ways that matter for getting things done and more effective
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mikekohr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Congressional Republicans are at 12% approval, Only 28% of Americans align with Republicans on
health care versus 48% that favor the Democratic position. We may not be perfect but the Republican party is nearing national irrelavancy.

mike kohr
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. True.. The GOP extremists know at least to vote for the guy closer
to their side of things.

It could be because they are mindless lock steppers. But in a huge country like this, one can't afford purity - one will just become irrelevant.

I like the way Kucinich runs for President to keep those ideas out there - he could not win the primary or the election in this era. But he's keeping those thoughts out there.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 03:38 PM
Response to Original message
10. I agree, my guess for the future is that it will split along those lines
The two parties of the future are both in the Democratic party now. The Repukes are getting so far to the right they will end up on the fringe with the Libertarians, or like the Greens.

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