I hope duers understand if there is a public option the majority of you won't be able to

[ej510]

buy in you will have to buy private?

[MNDemNY]

1. I get it...

but without a strong public option this is all for naught.



NO PUBLIC OPTION... NO BILL

[kath]

2. Yep - AFAIK, the "strongest" public option out there so far would only be available to 9-10 million

people by **2019**!!

We will still be getting fucked over by insurance companies, only more so.

[debbierlus]

24. Obama did not advocate for a real public option at all. He minimized it and HE SAID

Only about 5% of the population would end up enrolled...

That is hardly a challenge to the big insurance companies.

The public option is suppossed to provide real competition to drive down prices. That is not logically possible with such a small & restricted plan.

He also stated that people who had employer based health insurance could not join a public option.

Those who are stating that we are going to get a public option are ignoring the President's own words.

What we MIGHT get (and the President left it WIDE open to be thrown out of the legislation) is a public option that is a political gesture to appease the majority who want it with no teeth or ability to compete.

So, stop trying to ignore the President's OWN explanation of what the plan would be.

[kath]

47. Hey, I agree w/ you that we're being fucked -- there is no REAL, robust public option out there in

any of the bills, nor is Obama advocating for one. And if your employer gives you a crappy plan, you're STUCK w/ that crappy plan.

Debbie, I've been quoting some of your posts about your sister's experience w/ RomneyCare on various threads. It is utterly freakin' OUTRAGEOUS that they call a $1400/month premium (w/ co-pays and deductibles on top of that) for a family making $70K "affordable". What freakin' planet are they on, that they would call that "affordable"?!!?? Heck,.that's way more than our mortgage payment, and we make more than $70K and live in a relatively low cost-of-living area.

You've had some very good posts and threads -- I've been wondering if maybe you should start one about this whole bullshit "affordable" word that our bought-and-paid-for "representatives" and Prez are throwing around, which has no connection whatsoever with what NORMAL people would call affordable. Maybe soliciting examples of RomneyCare "affordability" outrages, or other abuses of the word "affordable"...

We are so screwn...

[RobinA]

58. Why Does Everyone Assume

that a public option would be better than an employer's crappy plan? I think it goes without saying that a public plan will be bare bones, last resort plan, much like today's MA. Even if you had a choice, you wouldn't pick MA over much of any other plan.

[LooseWilly]

49. Yup, that's what I heard in the speech debbierlus...

The public option mentioned in the speech seemed like it was meant to be some sort dumping ground for those who didn't have private insurance, but it sounded like it was meant to kick in after the mandates... so it seems like it's only for those who can't get private insurance.

45 million without is 15% of the population. If the public option is meant for 5%, that means the other 10% are going to be mandated to buy private insurance.

Sounds like yet another loophole to save the insurance companies money...

[WinkyDink]

53. So, is it just cutting down on Medicaid recipients?

[LooseWilly]

66. Rather, it sounds like an increase in Medicaid recipients...

Which will then lead to an increase in medicaid costs... which medicaid can't afford... which will then "prove" that government run health care doesn't work...

Or rather.. it will create another system to run in parallel to medicaid... which can then fail... I don't know... it really doesn't make sense to be honest. The details of the proposal seem more and more stupid as the details are examined...

[yurbud]

41. is it a means tested program or something?

[Nite Owl]

3. That's the way I understood it

there is no real choice, if you have insurance at work you have to take that you cannot opt for the public plan instead.

[OwnedByFerrets]

6. Even if that plan SUX

[CTyankee]

27. But won't your employer insurance be forced to abide by the new rules in the legislation

that prohibits some of the nefarious practices the insurance companies now do? I'm talking about no caps, no denials for preexisting conditions, etc.

I honestly don't see how the insurance companies are gonna go along with it, tho...

[lumberjack_jeff]

4. "The majority" will still get it from their employer.

But the employer will be required to pick up 65% of the family premium cost, and the plan they offer must be good.

[OwnedByFerrets]

5. 180 million, if my numbers are correct.

We get some things like no caps on coverage, no cutting you off and no pre-existing conditions, but in return for that, we get exponential premium rate increases. Not a plan I can support unless I can buy into a public plan myself.

[elocs]

18. Those are biggies: no caps on coverage, no cutting off, no pre-existing conditions.

In fact, I would hazard a guess that people who have had their lives turned upside down or their health destroyed by those things would call them huge.

[OwnedByFerrets]

37. But if they cant afford the coverage, those huge issues disappear for them.

[elocs]

39. What I am saying is that those are very important points for those who are denied coverage

or cut off because they have a pre-existing condition.

[OwnedByFerrets]

42. Yes they are. What I am saying is that I WISH the proposed

legislation went further.

[elocs]

44. Yes, I understand, but we're not exactly going away empty-handed

and for anyone who has been denied health insurance because of something like a pre=esisting condition they will be quite happy with what they got.

[OwnedByFerrets]

45. You are correct.

[Mojorabbit]

61. We are in that position

but we can afford an exorbitant premium. Many will not be able to do so.

[GOTV]

7. Where are the details?

[Buzz Clik]

8. Number one priority is to get everyone insured. Next, reform the health insurance industry.

Then, reform health care.

One step at a time.

Let's not get too self-focused.

[ej510]

9. Obama's reform is to support the insurance industry.

We were fucked over last night, and most people ignored his words, because he is greatest orator of this era. The brotha is masterful, but he is a corporate democrat.

[Buzz Clik]

10. Nope. That isn't what he proposed at all. However, that is the hysterical reaction.

[Jennicut]

12. "The brotha"...was that necessary?

[ej510]

17. I've used that term plenty of times. It is part of my culture.

Get over it.

[Jennicut]

19. I could call Italians and the Irish plenty of deragatory names, doesn't make it right

My Italian and Irish grandfathers were called plenty of things, don't think I will use those names for myself.

[ej510]

20. Brotha isn't derogatory at all. In the black community it is a sign

of respect and family. Sorry you do not understand my culture before you speak out about another culture; which you obviously cannot indentify with you should ask questions.

[Jennicut]

21. Fine. We agree to disagree.

[joeycola]

56. I tutor elementary kids of all colors. Brotha is a commonly

used phase amongst them all.

[SeattleGirl]

13. You must not have listened to the same speech I did. n/t

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Doctor_J]

22. Yes, get everyone insured by bankrupting those with private insurance

That's priority 1 alright! :eyes:

[jeanpalmer]

51. By that time

everyone wil be broke and/or bankrupt.

Do it now. No excuses. Let's get someone with the balls to make the arguments and take up the fight.

[grantcart]

11. if your talking to the people who don't have insurance they should be able to buy it

but the private plans that people can buy into will be different than the plans that are being offerred today:

1) No discrimination for precondition

2) No dropping because you get sick

3) It will have to meet the conditions of the health exchange.


how much will it cost and and how much will it cover and how much will the subsidy be?


Even for the public option we don't know the answer to these questions.


The only thing that the speech settled last night was that the government is going to be in charge of regulating health care - something that hasn't happened till now.

[ej510]

14. High profits for the insurance industry.

[eridani]

52. None of that happens until 2013

Meanwhile, 88,000 people will have died due to not being able to pay for care, and 1 million+ bankrupted.

And age discrimination remains firmly in place. Fuck that!

[msallied]

15. I'm sorry, can you direct me to the website that has the bill on the President's desk?

[WinkyDink]

54. Isn't that a tad late to discuss it?

[Enrique]

16. the choice would be with the employers for most of us

from what I've heard, a lot of employers would choose the public option if it were designed well.

And the more who choose it, the better it would work. Greater bargaining power, greater market pressure on the private insurers.

[debbierlus]

28. Can employers choose the government option ? From what Obama said

The only people who could qualify are people who don't have employer coverage. And, that coverage is from private insurance companies...

People will have to keep the coverage they have - and that means employers must continue to offer the coverage they already have....

I have to research this a little more, but I think your statement is inaccurate.

[Blasphemer]

35. Employers being able to choose the PO would make a huge difference

I'm not sure how that meshes with the 5% claim. If all employers could indeed opt for the public option for their employees, it would cover far more than 5% of Americans.

[andym]

38. Not if the private insurers match its price/performance.

The 5% comes from the Congressional Budget Office predictions. They apparently predict that the private insurers will match.

[LooseWilly]

67. I think the implication is pretty obvious... employers can not choose the PO. Else 5% is unlikely...

[TheKentuckian]

23. This is not an instant gratification deal

The most important thing is to get a robust option even if few are eligible. Once a framework is in place it is easier to expand than to win the war to create, just like Social Security.

[debbierlus]

25. It will not BE a robust option if enrollment is severely limited

What will happen will be the public option (with no government subsidies, mind you, Obama stated that in the speech) won't be able to compete, the cost to enroll will be HIGHER then in private since it does not provide the basic framework to compete and the REPUKES will point to the public option as a failure that creates HIGHER costs and doesn't work as well as private insurance....

This is a sellout to corporations.

Stop trying to defend this impotent political gesture that is still on track to be thrown off the table, as some type of real reform.

Instant gratification? NO gratification.

Just knock it off.

[Dawgs]

29. It's either the public option that Obama is proposing or not having one at all.

I'll go with a weak one, and trust that the Democrats will tweak it to include more people later on.

Your way gets us nothing.

[debbierlus]

32. My way would be to fight tooth and nail for the Weiner Amendment to HR3200

Instead of accepting pure SHIT from the Obama administration...

A weak public option is not going to provide a check on health insurance costs.

It won't be able to compete with the insurance companies. It could be MORE expensive then the private insurance option, and it will set the stage for decrying a government insurance plan as ineffective.

This is insanity.

I can't believe so many on DU are going to drink this corporate kool-aid because they like the salesman.

WAKE UP.

[TheKentuckian]

31. I don't take marching orders from hysterical, illogical, and irrational whinners

Knock it off???? How about kiss my high yella ass???

I have just as much a right to make my assessments and bring your nonsense into focus to boot but I've never extended my rights to supersede yours. Why can't you disagree without directives? The only impotent thing I see is your dogmatic and out of touch with reality approach to governance and view of policy making.

[debbierlus]

34. No, it appears you take marching orders from the corporate salesman for the insurance companies

Yes.

Knock it off.

You are reduced to defending a weak, ineffectual 'public option' that Obama himself stated will only cover about 5% of the population. Instead of calling this administration on the carpet for breaking campaign promises against mandates and offering a program that ALL Americans can enroll in (just like the health care plan offered in the United States Senate), you are cheerleading
a private mandated insurance plan that will not have any type of real competition to control costs. You are supporting a plan that is failing in my home state of Massachusetts, a plan that will not provide universal or equal health care coverage for all Americans.
You are letting the private corporations dictate the legislation and get away with it because you are taken in by their salesman.

Just as I would say KNOCK IT OFF to the sheep that followed Bush off a cliff, I will say KNOCK IT OFF to those who blindly follow
a politician instead of fighting for real policy change.

Advocating for real health reform is not whining or hysterical (although labeling people who fight against corporate fascism with such labels is a typical means employed by republicans for marginalizing those who dissent)

So, knock it off.

[Dawgs]

26. +1. Getting the public option is what's important.

Sad to see that so many still don't get it.

[debbierlus]

30. No. Getting a weak public option is potentially worse then none at all

A impotent public option that can't compete with insurance companies will not drive down prices.

It will be end up being MORE expensive then private insurance since it will be so small and limited in scope.

This sets the stage for the repukes and corporatist dems to scrap the programs entirely - stating that it doesn't bring down costs and doesn't work - and point to the fact that private insurance is cheaper. It will hurt the case for expansion of government insurance and keep us locked in this dysfunctional profiteering system that we need to escape.

It matters VERY much what type of public option is passed.

Open your eyes.

[LooseWilly]

68. cheers debbierlus... I couldn't agree more...

[Overseas]

33. So we need to be sure our representatives change that aspect.

We need "Medicare Part E" - E for Everyone who wants to buy into it, in addition to those who get it because they can't afford any coverage.

[cojoel]

36. or maybe we need to get a public option, and then fix it

Once there is a public option, it will be harder to take away. Then we can fix it, in reconcilliation if need be, so that it is useful.

[yurbud]

40. how do you know that?

[Orsino]

43. My hope is that a sufficiently well-run public option...

...will sell more young-to-middle-aged Americans on the efficiency and affordability of not-for-profit care, and thereby on single payer.

[mzmolly]

46. The point is that our insurance companies will have to compete

with the option, thus bringing down cost and improving coverage.

[WinkyDink]

55. Seriously, in what other area has competition done this? Auto prices? Housing? Tuition?

It isn't exactly like there is only one insurance company today, WITHOUT competitors.

[mzmolly]

64. But there are monopolies in various states. Further, the post office

competes with UPS and so on. There are many examples.

[LooseWilly]

69. California established an Insurance Commissioner to oversee Auto Insurance.

Within 3 months I started getting rebates from my auto insurer...

There is no "public option" for auto insurance.

Unless we're willing to create an Office of the Health Insurance Commissioner... National Position... the Public Option is the only thing that will create a price check, through competition, for health insurance companies. Regulate... or create a relatively cheaper "post office" of Health Insurance to force competition into the industry. Choose... but the competition choice seems obviously the cheaper of the two...

[GivePeaceAchance]

50. ..

..

[harun]

57. I understand that is what is being discussed. People need to raise the issue

with their representatives that we want the number of people the Public Option is available for increased.

[gravity]

59. As long as there is a public option, it will evolve

Right now it is more important to get something passed, even if it is not perfect.

The health care bill will also reform private insurance, so you will still get an instant benefit from it.

[LooseWilly]

70. "As long as there is a public option, it will evolve"... you mean, like Medicare has???

[ProSense]

60. Wrong. Many more will have a choice and the plan is designed to evolve

Sec. 202. Exchange-eligible individuals and employers. Defines who is eligible for participation in the Health Insurance Exchange including employers and individuals. In year one, individuals not enrolled in other acceptable coverage are allowed into the Exchange as well as small employers with 10 or fewer employees. In year two, employers with 20 and fewer employees are allowed into the Exchange. In subsequent years, the Health Choices Commissioner is granted authority to expand employer participation as appropriate, with the goal of allowing all employers access to the Exchange.

<...>

Sec. 313. Employer contributions in lieu of coverage. Requires an offering employer to contribute to the Exchange for each employee who declines the employer’s coverage offer and enters the Exchange via the affordability test outlined in the act. The contribution is generally 8% of the average salary for the employer.

<...>

Sec. 412. Responsibilities of nonelecting employers. Establishes a payroll tax of 8% of the wages that an employer pays to its employees for employers who choose not to offer coverage. Certain small employers are exempt from this or are subject to a graduated tax rate. An exempt small business is an employer with an annual payroll that does not exceed $250,000. The 8% payroll tax phases in for employers with annual payroll from $250,000 through $400,000.

link

[LooseWilly]

71. "individuals not enrolled in other acceptable coverage are allowed into the Exchange" Uhh, allowed ?

And the presumption is... that it will be like the insurance provided by employers.. or nearly so?... And... will it be like that provided by employers who have beat their unions into a corner, and who are then spending huge portions of their union negotiated wages on health insurance??... and, will that be the "gift" of this legislation to all the retail workers making 1/3 of union wages... to be able to get insurance from the private insurance companies at the rates that the union employees consider onerous?... how wonderful for the retail employees who will now find that bargain mandated (?).

Ahh... how wonderful... at least they won't be turned down for pre-existing conditions... 5 years from now?... and those onerous rates... they'll be even higher for the smokers (but just as mandated)?

And... I seem to have missed any stipulations about the rates of the coverage costs increases being limited to keep them within reach of pay rate increases...

Happy happy wonderful new world... we'll all be... healthy...

[quiller4]

62. Fine by me as long as discrimination against pre-existing conditions

and rescission end.

[Bluenorthwest]

63. The thing is this: a public plan that can not be chosen is not an option

just a plan. So this thing they are calling 'the public option' might be public, but it is not on option. So there will be some sort of public plan, maybe, but the option part is toast. Calling it a public option is mendacious.

Option:
1. The act of choosing; choice. See Synonyms at choice.
2. The power or freedom to choose.
3. Something chosen or available as a choice.

Option does not include last resorts, nor a thing that can not be chosen, but rather is assigned for lack of choice.

[boppers]

65. I'm not in the majority.

I've been a private contractor since '99, unable to afford the *insane* premiums of a solo health plan.

Unfortunately, Obama isn't planning on letting me keep the insurance I have (none).

[LooseWilly]

72. Alas... no more having no insurance... time to pony up for some shitty insurance.

Enjoy... or take a tax hit...

[boppers]

73. Those who don't exist...

Pay no tax.

I've saved 6,000 on car insurance, and lost ~1,500 on not having it. I have it now, but when I didn't exist, I didn't pay some "fee to breathe and drive".