Was Joe Wilson's remark racist?

[msallied]

I've been seeing people debate this back and forth today. You have one side saying that calling Obama a liar does not make him a racist, but I disagree with this. For one thing, you don't need to yell out an epithet to be considered a racist. Second, it's not so much what Joe Wilson SAID, it's what he did, and the climate of "otherness" surrounding Obama that allowed it to happen in the first place. That, I think, is the racial component in this. But a lot of people think it's a stretch to go that far.

What say you?

[NRaleighLiberal]

1. There was one shot of the grumpy old men sitting on their hands last night,

and I pictured them all comfortably wearing white hoods.

He may not have meant it to be racist, but I have a feeling that the word tapped into his inner self.

[Eric J in MN]

2. I don't think he was motivated by racism.

Just the shout-against-health-care-reform thing which the health insurance companies encouraged.

[CakeGrrl]

3. His words were not racist; his underlying ATTITUDE is.

The issue is that he felt free to disrupt the President with impunity because, IMO, he does not respect the office while Obama holds it.

[cali]

7. what about the dems who booed bushco

when he addressed Congress?

[proud2BlibKansan]

15. When did that happen?

[leftynyc]

23. 2005 State of the Union

Hisses and boos - all deserved. That said, I really think calling the President a liar is beyond the pale.

[Kahuna]

17. I don't recall that ever happening. If it had happened I'm sure the repukes

would have used it for justification. The fact that they haven't means it never happened.

[Rebubula]

61. And yet...

..it did

"The fact that they haven't means it never happened"

Really...just because you have not heard about it and you have not seen a big reaction (there was one, just many years back) means that it did not happen?? Awesome.

[Kahuna]

71. Sorry! You got me. What you said is what I usually say... But

it is odd that the GOP hasn't used it as a justification. Face it, they usually use anything as justification. So, really, my logic wasn't flawed at all. These are the people howling about death panels that don't exist.

[snake in the grass]

197. If Hannity has received the talking points...

...I'm sure the rest of the GOP hominids will be following shortly.

Here is the video from his show. If you don't what to sit through the entire torturous gibberish, the relevant part of the segment starts at 4min25sec.

[Kahuna]

215. I did hear them from Hannity. But oddly enough, I saw them on DU first. Hmmm. nt

[msallied]

18. A few murmured boos versus screaming out "YOU LIE!" Hmmm... methinks they aren't quite the same.

[cali]

28. it wasn't a few murmured boos. it was a chorus of them. I remember

it clearly. Not saying that what Wilson did wasn't worse, but booing the President during his SotU speech still qualifies as disrespectful.

[Phx_Dem]

91. Not the same at all. Obama was boo'd last night. No one is

talking about that as the problem. Wilson called the President of the United States a liar -- during a joint session of Congress!

You don't call the President a liar unless you have hard and absolute proof. And even then, you never do it during a joint session of congress. In this case, Wilson didn't even have proof and he is fucking wrong. He is the liar.

[Orsino]

194. Bush's acts as president merited much, much worse than boos.

President Obama's have not--at least not the specific boos the GOP mustered.

[butterfly77]

225. He deserved it and he is a LIAR..

Lying about the economy while stealing us Blind.By the way where is the missing 9 billion in Iraq?

Lying us into war

No child left behind was a LIE! Bush didn't put any funding in the budget for education..

Lying about he didn't know that people were left without food,clothing,medication and other essentials after Katrina for five days.

Signing over Nuclear technology by the bush adminstration for mangoes was just STUPID!

[hamsterjill]

72. I think you are exactly right.

Well said.

[Phx_Dem]

92. Absolutely agree. n/t

[Karenina]

244. BINGO!

[cali]

4. No. Ridiculous stretch and contortion. He may be a racist but the evidence

for that can't be found in his boorish behavior of last night.

[msallied]

8. What do you think motivated him to so easily disrespect the office of the president, then?

Do you not think it's rooted in the same behavior exhibited by the screaming "town hall" and birther segment of the population who refuse to see Barack Obama as President or even an American citizen in some cases? That it's the negative stereotyping of African Americans in general that has lead some of these people to treat Barack Obama differently than any other President has been treated? It's not just the health care debate that is causing this. We've had debates like this throughout our nation's history. There is an additional ingredient in the nasty brew.

[cali]

29. The question in the OP was whether Wilson's remark itself was racist.

it clearly was not. It may or may not have been spurred by racism, but there's no evidence of that in the remark itself. And let's face it, wingnut repukes have been just as hateful toward Ted Kennedy, for instance.

[onenote]

33. I have little doubt that in today's climate, he'd have done the same to Bill Clinton

[Becky72]

36. Some said Bill and Hillary killed Vince Foster. Did those white right-wingers hate white people?

Ultra-conservatives hate Democrats and make evil stuff about them.

[dolphindance]

41. But they would not publicly scold the President in such a cavalier way.

He didn't give a shit that this was a formal affair. Barack Obama, a black man, had no business leading the nation so he felt emboldened to act out.

[Becky72]

45. would you rather be called a liar or a murderer?

Come on now.

[NOLALady]

64. I guess I missed it when Bill was

called a murderer during a Congressional speech. When did that happen?

[Becky72]

98. I didn't know that it's only racist when the verbal attack occurs during a speech in congress

The definition of racism sure has changed as of late. It's so broad now!

Calling a white man a murderer in editorials, TV shows and talk radio=not racist.
Calling a black President a liar during a speech in congress=racist.

Very novel view of racism indeed. You get A+ for creativity.

[dolphindance]

113. A FORMAL public event where EVERYONE is watching and you ...

as a Congressman, are expected to be on the best behavior. You decide to make a scene and call out the President during his "moment".

Remember, he is not a regular citizen. He is a CONGRESSMAN. A public servant who is expected to follow certain rules of conduct.

You've got some kind of chip on your shoulder. Maybe someone wrongly accused you of being racist at one time.

[Raineyb]

114. The fact that he thought he could disrespect Obama in a way he'd never DARE

disrespect a white president is racist. And BTW, the man has issues with black people unless you think that saying the mere birth of Strom Thurman's black daughter is a disgrace is NOT racist.

[Becky72]

134. Again, you don't know if he wouldn't dare do it to Kerry

You have the right of take wild guesses, of course, but they won't be more than that: wild guesses.

Because Kerry didn't win the Presidency. Wilson has been in office since 2001. He has seen two Presidents: Bush and Obama. And the reason why he didn't heckle Bush is that Bush was an ultraconservative like he was.

[bettyellen]

157. actually, we know this beyond disrespctful behaviour is totally unprecedented.

[Becky72]

167. So if a congressman calls Obama a liar in a newspaper op-ed...the congressman is not racist?

Because he did it in a newspaper?

[bettyellen]

159. Calling a black President a liar during a speech in congress= totaly unprecedented

and rumour mongering- old as dirt and just as common.
but you already know that.

[Becky72]

166. The only unprecedented thing is the place where the heckling occured. The behavior is old as America

Racism isn't determined by the place where it occured. But you pretend the place is key.

By your logic, nobody will ever be able to call a congressman racist unless he/she decides to heckle the president during a speech in congreess. It will be ok if the congressman does it in the Rush Limbaugh show or in a newspaper article. Right?

[bettyellen]

181. "during a speech in congress" -- so do you have an impairment that leads you to mischaracterise

erey single thing you read here, or are you being disingenuous? you leave out the whole conyest as if it;s meanngless. what BS,
that;s rhetorical, because we both know the answer to that.
and that makes you NOT WORTH IT. yawn, good bye.

[bettyellen]

182. do you knw differnet places call fo different rules ad behaviour-or did your momma learn you nothing

DC has protocall, decorum ...and you are the only person who doesn;t work for Fox who thinks thos was ok.
i bet you actually know better, because you seem too obtuse for this to be real.
no sale.

[Becky72]

193. Now my momma is all of a sudden part of the argument

Tempers are flaring here, no doubt, as some keep their composure and other don't.

[bettyellen]

205. no, your lack of a basic education and failures at logic are part of the arguement.

[Forkboy]

207. You spelled argument wrong.

Basic education and all...

[Becky72]

208. lol n/t

[bettyellen]

209. wow more off topic stuff- Becks will love that, thanks!

[Becky72]

210. Like basic education was part of the original topic

A person who disagrees with you does not necessarily have basic education. He may simply have a different point of view.

[bettyellen]

214. we were talking about hecking during a speech to congress being unprecendented, u get lost easily

dont you? we were talking about decorum and unprecented behaviour and your BS attempts to equate it with other behaviour, like writing editorials.

this meandering bullshit is a bore. good bye loser.

[Becky72]

217. Yelling "you lie" in congress is not worse than accusing someone of murder in an editorial

Yet you refuse to say that those people hate white people, which is implied by your logic.
In your world, if's racist if it's said during a speech.

by the way, some brough up Colin Powell. Will you scold them?

[bettyellen]

218. BS in editorials has been going on since Washington was president, shouting LIAR to POTUS is NEW

unprecedented, look it the feck up.

[Becky72]

220. The only unprecedented thing was the place, not the behavior

And racism is not determined by a place. In your odd creative logic it is.

[bettyellen]

224. context is not something you can wish away, POTUS in congress is owed a level of repect- rules also

exsist, and Wilson broke them, so this incident was indeed totally unprecedented.
the who and the where are important, as is the other who - that he is president- not just a random black man like maybe Colin Powell.
Sheesh you will do anything to pull away from discussng what actually happened, wont you?

[Becky72]

229. POTUS is owed not to be called a murderer anywhere in the world

If the evidence to back that up is zero. Yet some did it, and he was white.

[bettyellen]

232. except its not! it'scommon- has happened to most presidents I can think of.

you need to get out more, or learn to compare apples to apples because this is the dumbest shit i have ever read on DU.
pretty much Jimmy Carter is the only POTUS I can think of that wasn;t said o have blood on their hands for one thing or another.
again that has nothing to do with what happens in congress.

[bigjohn16]

228. There's going to be a lot of firsts with this President. Some bad and some good.

Not everything bad is going to be motivated by racism.

[bettyellen]

230. ugh - the "everything" lie rears it's ugly has again here. Tks for the dismissive BS.

[bigjohn16]

233. I'm not trying to be dismissive.

I was involved in another thread where someone got into a conversation with a person who said they didn't like the President and they said to them "Why, because he's black?". We can't go down that road it stifles the debate in my opinion.

[bettyellen]

235. you are not dismissive like others here are. but just because you heard one nutter say

all criticism of Obama is racism or that - god help us you;re a racist for disagreeing it's racism... well we have to all be careful with the broad brush. if you look through this thread most of the people who don;t think it;s racism or racist enough, will say that people who disagree with them on this cry racist 24/7 over every single thing. all the time. it just ain't so. t

here are many more people here saying something can;t be attributed to racism unless it involves an obvious racist remark or symbol. this blows my mind, it;s like they have no idea of how the world works or that people say one thing and dog whistle another. people here are denying the birthers of all people have a racist undertone! also people saying whether or not its racism we shld just keep our mouths shut because it;s inflammatory. you know- the back of the bus crew. it blows my mind that this is even up for debate around here.

[Forkboy]

212. I'll be here all week. Try the veal.

[Spazito]

222. Did any repub shout out "murderer" to Clinton in the well of the House?

No, they did not. Did any repub shout out "you lie" to Clinton in the well of the House? No, they did not. We know full well the repubs had no problem OUTSIDE the House saying those things yet until President Obama, they respected the Rules of the House and did not shout out the way Wilson did on Wednesday night. Why do you think the repubs thought it could be done to President Obama where they did not for President Clinton as we know they despise them both?

[Orsino]

192. When a black president's address unhinges him...

...and Thurmond's black daughter sets him off, the evidence is rather compelling, if not quite definitive.

[Justitia]

5. He sure felt comfortable yelling down a black man in the House Chamber.

To make a comparison, do you think he would have tried to shout down Bill Clinton?

I think not.

[xultar]

6. No. It wasn't. He's messed in the head. The fever of the teabaggers makes them

think they can do anything.

[msallied]

14. What do you think gives the teabaggers their fever in the first place?

Especially when facts show that Obama is anything BUT a socialist? They're motivated to believe that Barack Obama is the worst of the worst of the "left wing agenda," not based on facts, but based on their need to cling to their rudimentary and hateful view of "colored" people.

[xultar]

27. Yeah, but seriously, that man was drunk. I don't think he was being racist...he was

like a drunk man in the bar screamin and shit trying to get attention and props from his buddies. He would have done it even if a white dude was up there.

Racist was Saxby Chambliss' statement the other day about Obama better have humility.

[msallied]

34. I would agree most definitely about the Chambliss comment.

[dolphindance]

43. The Chambliss comment and this all stem from the same racist attitude.

This black guy is lucky to be here and he better not overplay his hand. That's exactly what they are thinking. He should "know his place".

[izquierdista]

9. Since he didn't add "boy" at the end

No, it wasn't racist.








But the microphone wasn't close enough to hear what he said under his breath.

[JeanGrey]

10. I don't think it has anything to do with racism.

[Me.]

11. I Agree

"Second, it's not so much what Joe Wilson SAID, it's what he did, and the climate of "otherness" surrounding Obama that allowed it to happen in the first place."

[CitizenPatriot]

12. it came from a racist background

"You remember Joe Wilson, right? He's a member of the Sons of Confederate Veterans, an organization teeming with white supremecists and racists, who was one of 7 who voted to fly the confederate flag over the SC capitol. Yeah, white sheet guy. That's him.

I’m thinking Van Jones was right.

Republicans are a$$holes. "

http://www.politicususa.com/en/node/7156

[PatGund]

48. Bear in mind.....

Joe Wilson also said publically that he didn't believe Strom Thurmond should have admitted to having had fathered a bi-racial child.

I suspect Rep. Wilson is a bit on the racist side.

[CitizenPatriot]

51. yes, we are in agreement:-)

Joe WIlson is in the pockets of insurance industries and would very much like to maintain status quo....he grew up in racism and he uses it to perpetuate his unearned authority and privilege.

In other words, he's an asshat hatriot.

[DrToast]

13. No, it's not racist. Let's not get carried away here.

[harun]

16. Remarks may not be but his unsubstantiated hatred of the President seems to be.

[proud2BlibKansan]

19. No

[demwing]

20. Though his concerns about mexican aliens seem to imply so

there was nothing in that one comment that would indicate it as well

[msallied]

21. It's not what he said. It's the mindset that lead him to disrespect the office of the president.

[leftynyc]

22. No - I don't think it was racist

That doesn't mean he isn't a racist (I never heard of him before yesterday) but if we keep crying out "racist" every time someone says something stupid, it will lose its meaning.

[Demobrat]

24. I'm sure he would have yelled the same thing

at Biden if he had given the speech, so no I don't think it was racist.

[NOLALady]

25. Definitely.

He feels that he does not have to respect the President.

Sort of like, what do you call a black man with a PHD.

[AngryAmish]

26. Of course. Objectively so.

[Arkansas Granny]

30. No. The remark was not racist. I think we make a mistake by

characterizing any and all opposition to Obama as racist.

[dolphindance]

40. He would not have said it to a white President. There is general lack of respect.

And this is due to his race. I believe this is undeniable. You don't see it because you are white, but those of us who are black have seen it all our lives and recognize it when we see it.

Last night was one of those instances.

[gauguin57]

31. Yelling about illegal aliens doesn't necessarily make you racist. But Joe's background shows ...

... that he IS a racist.

This blog tells what Joe Wilson said when Strom Thurmond's African-American daughter was revealed ...

http://www.uexpress.com/asiseeit/?uc_full_date=20031219

"...It is the feigned surprise that vexes me most -- the stunned silence, the equivocation, the angry denials that followed the revelation that Strom Thurmond had bedded a black maid and fathered a black child. South Carolina state Sen. John Courson, who huffed, "This is ludicrous," and U.S. Rep. Joe Wilson, who called the revelation "unseemly," have a distinct affection for dishonesty."

He's a racist, pure and simple. He was an aide to Strom Thurmond earlier in his career... Strom taught him well.

[bigjohn16]

32. It diminishes the impact of the word and the pain the victims of racism feel

by saying that every time some asshole disagrees with the President they're a racist.

[NOLALady]

54. He's not considered racist

because he disagreed with the President. He's considered racist because his actions said that he does not need to respect a person of color regardless of their position or title.

[dolphindance]

55. +1000. Well said (n/t)

[bigjohn16]

65. So because he yells the words "You Lie" you now know that he hates all people of color?

That's really a stretch. It seems to me that just like Wilson who wanted to shut down the debate by shouting down the President some here want to kill the debate with unwarranted charges of racism about anyone who doesn't like the President.

[dolphindance]

67. No. He hates people of color in positions of power. An important distinction.

We're okay as long as we don't rock the boat.

What he did was unprecedented as far as these types of gatherings are concerned.

[bigjohn16]

68. I'll say it again. That's a stretch.

I agree it was unprecedented and I think he was a coward for doing it while trying to blend into the crowd. It's not enough for me to say one way or the other that he's a racist that hates all people of color who hold higher office.

[Becky72]

176. So he hates Clarence Thomas?

You learn something new every day!

[NOLALady]

87. I don't know if he hates all people of color.

Strom Thurmond was a racist. He obviously didn't hate all people of color.

It is of no importance if Wilson agrees or disagrees with the President. But, it says a lot when he shows such obvious disrespect for his superior.
Considering he's a Son of Confederates, I would suspect the racist label fits.

[bigjohn16]

94. You may be correct. But from what I knew of him after his outburst last night

I wouldn't have called him a racist based on that alone. It's hurts the fight for equality to throw that word around just to spite a political opponent.

[Alcibiades]

148. He's a South Carolina Republican!

You may not be able to make this assumption about a Republican from, say, Maryland, or even Virginia. But South Carolina + Republican = racist.

That's all you need to know.

[bigjohn16]

153. Wow.

That's a bold statement. I can't really think of anything to say to that other then, you're wrong.

[Alcibiades]

199. I see you live in a border state

My family comes from NC and SC, mainly SC. My family has been Democratic since--well, forever. When Truman gave the order to integrate the Army, my grandfather was in Korea and followed suit. Lots of folks did change, and were changed by the civil rights movement.

Back in the day, almost all (white) South Carolinians were Democrats. But there are some people who left the party after advocates of civil rights won the debate in our party: I call these folks the "Wallace wing of the GOP," because they are, at best, crypto-racists. If you know your history and understand the bitterness left behind in SC by General Sherman and the controversies of the Reconstruction era, you understand there's no reason why any any South Carolinian would be a Republican--except for the southern strategy.

Some folks joined hands with Reverend King and continued to be Democrats. Some became apolitical, if they were not so to begin with. Others followed Strom and became Republicans.

[bigjohn16]

200. You didn't state anything that made what you said a fact.

When you have hard data about your claim that all SC Republicans are racist get back to me. The only thing for sure that we know is that all SC Republican are human beings.

[Alcibiades]

242. I stated it as an equivalency

but you're right: it's a simple correlation. My parents and grandparents live in Joe Wilson's district, a place where I spent my childhood up to age 11. I offered a historical explanation for assuming why Republicans in South Carolina--not Republicans in general, but Republicans in South Carolina--can be assumed to be racist. It's based on living here and having deep roots in the Carolinas. The same people who are Republicans used to be the Wallace Democrats. I have met lots of folks who have lived through the transition from segregation era Democrats, to Wallace Southern Democrats, to Reagan Republicans. Joe Wilson began his career as an aide to Strom Thurmond: you cannot understand him, or South Carolina Republicans today, without understanding the long history of racial politics of South Carolina.

Of course, that's anecdotal and historical, and you want hard data. Fortunately, there is a lot of data on party id in the south after the initiation of the southern strategy. The phenomenon of the Wallace people becoming Republicans has been rather well documented. A good place for you to begin would be Carmines & Stimpson's 1989 book: Issue Evolution: Race and the Transformation of American Politics.

South Carolina Republicans are human beings: deeply flawed, arrogant, sinful human beings, the descendants of folks who gave us one Civil War and who are to this day agitating for another one.

[suzie]

171. Have you ever looked at what the Sons of Confederate Veterans

espouses? Joe Wilson is a member of the Sons of Confederate Veterans.

"The citizen-soldiers who fought for the Confederacy personified the best qualities of America. The preservation of liberty and freedom was the motivating factor in the South's decision to fight the Second American Revolution. The tenacity with which Confederate soldiers fought underscored their belief in the rights guaranteed by the Constitution. These attributes are the underpinning of our democratic society and represent the foundation on which this nation was built."

Go to a website about the Civil War and you will get a good feel for whether or not membership in this organization is an indication of racist leanings.

Joe Wilson was an aide to Strom Thurmond. He castigated those who accepted that Thurmond had fathered a biracial daughter.

Perhaps if a Republican from say, Michigan, had said "Liar", then it would be not be an indication of racism. But one from South Carolina who voted to keep the Confederate flag flying over the State?

[bigjohn16]

184. I wasn't asked if Joe Wilson was a racist. He may be

The question was "Was Joe Wilson's remark racist?" in my opinion no and I don't think the words "You Lie" are enough to apply that label.

[Becky72]

221. Very good point. That's why they are struggling to make their point

Because the statement the focus, not the person.

[bigjohn16]

223. There's just so much misdirected energy. Especially in this thread. nt

[suzie]

238. You gotta be joking.

You want us to distinguish whether, given that Joe Wilson has a long history as a racist, this particular remark was racist?

Maybe ol' Joe wasn't sitting there getting angrier and angrier that this black man, whom he dislikes because he's black, is President and speaking condescendingly to Joe and all his brethren on the GOP, and Joe can't hold his anger in any more and has to shout out "You lie".

Or we're to suppose that Joe, who's a military guy, gets so angry that he calls out to his Commander in Chief, "You lie", just because it's an ordinary thing for military guys to get that angry that they just yell out at their commanders in public?

But no, maybe we're to think that the possibility is that the racist Joe calmly and coolly thought to himself, "I'll just break all precedents here and because Barack Hussein Obama is a known liar, if he says thus and so, I'll just shout out 'You lie' because after all someone has to say it."

Or maybe we could come up with some other interesting scenarios of why Joe Wilson would accuse his Commander in Chief and President of the United States of lying other than his usual racist bent.

And maybe if something waddles like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's really a scarecrow.

[bigjohn16]

239. That a lot of information to get out of the words "You Lie".

I'd never heard of the man until that point. The OP asked "Was Joe Wilson's remark racist?" and yet again in my opinion no. "Is Joe Wilson Racist" that's a completely different question.

[Raineyb]

115. And you diminish the desire of black people to even want to discuss anything

with you when you constantly tell black people that something they see as racist isn't.

[bigjohn16]

124. I never said any such thing.

What he said last night wasn't racist in my opinion, he may be. The question was "Was Joe Wilson's remark racist", my answer is no. If you don't agree then that's fine but for you to say that I "diminish the desire of black people to want to discuss" is offensive. I'd ask for an apology but I'm sure it would be wasted on a person who can judge someone so harshly that quickly.

[Raineyb]

125. Yes you did. Otherwise why would you dare come out of your face and

lecture someone the way you did.

And it does diminish the desire of black people to discuss politics especially when it comes to race because of how our observations are treated. Read the responses you see below and see if people would be inclined to continue a conversation with the lectures we get around here.

And you wouldn't get an apology if you did ask for one. I see no reason why I should apologize for stating something that makes you uncomfortable especially when its true.

[bigjohn16]

128. I'm not really sure what you're accusing me of.

Are you saying that I'm a racist for my opinion on the topic? Since I don't think you should call a person a racist for the words "You Lie", you're saying I want to exclude "black people" from the debate? If I'm mistaken please set me straight. If not I think we're done here.

[Raineyb]

147. No I'm saying you disrespect people by lecturing them instead of possibly

taking into consideration that maybe the black members of this site may see something that you don't see. But very few people actually give us the that kind of benefit of the doubt. Instead we get people scolding us for "playing the race card" and telling us that what we see as racist isn't. So tell me if it were you in this position how willing would you be to discuss anything especially when it has to do with race would you be willing to discuss with people who consistently disrespected you in such a manner? THAT is what I'm saying. Stop diminishing an entire group of people when they (because it's more than one of us saying this) say that something stems from racism. It's patronizing as hell and nobody likes it and as I said earlier it makes a good number of us not want to discuss anything with you.

[bigjohn16]

152. I'm lecturing people? Did you even read your own post as you wrote it?

I don't give a person some special authority just because of the color of their skin, sorry. The OP asked a question and I answered it with my opinion. I never said once that anyone was playing the race card and I can't speak for other people. I said that Wilson's comment wasn't racist and say it diminishes the word to say it was and I'm going to stand by that. Not everything negative that will be said toward or about the President is going to be racism just because he's black and that's my feeling on the issue. I don't think we're going to agree on this issue so lets just leave it at that.

[Name removed]

160. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Becky72]

35. We tend to spin everything into being a racist comment

In my view, that's getting ridiculous.

[dolphindance]

39. The comment was not racist, but the lack of respect which generated it was. (n/t)

[Becky72]

49. Question: Why don't ultracoservatives go around attacking Clarence Thomas?

Because Clarence Thomas is an ultra-conservative.

Reminder: Ultraconservatives hate Democrats.

[dolphindance]

53. Because he is not the President and does not challenge them.

Wait for the very moment he might not rock with the party. Then some of them will pull out the racial stuff.

Look at how quickly they threw Colin Powell under the bus.

NOTE: I'm not saying that all conservatives are racists.

[Becky72]

56. And you know why they threw Colin Powell under the bus?

Because he condemned some bad conservative policies. He was black before and after the fact, but they hated him only after he stopped behaving like a neocon.

And you proved yourself that being President and being one who challenges ultraconservatives are the factors that induce thid kind of hatred. Blacks ultraconservatives won't suffer these attacks.

[dolphindance]

66. But not only did they jettison him, they quickly adopted the "black solidarity" line.

They said he went with Obama because Obama was black. So the minute he stepped out of line, they play the reverse-racist card on him like you are trying to do with me.

My point is: As blacks, We are always on probation in the white world. It doesn't matter what status or titles we achieve. As soon as an inkling of bad behavior eeks out, we're nothing but n-ggers again.

[Becky72]

170. But did they do it during Colin Powell's speeches?

If not, then it wasn't racist, according to you.

[bettyellen]

158. *crickets*

[Raineyb]

162. Funny how she's got nothing to say now. Too bad she didn't do that earlier

rather than talk out of her ass.

[bettyellen]

163. gotta love this one: people are mean to whites too so there is no racism! what an fing idjit!!

[Becky72]

173. Versus your "every mean statetement against a President is racist, if the President is black"

Unless the mean statement occurs outside of a speech in Congress.

What complicated reasoning!

[bettyellen]

179. no one here said any of those things, in fact they are fucking twisted lies. straight frm Fox.

[Becky72]

174. You have to prove this was said during Colin Powell speeches n/t

[bettyellen]

188. um, no. every black man working in our govt is not interchangable- unless you're racist.....

seeing only color. POTUS is granted a cetain level of respecy, always has been. What rock have you been under?

[Becky72]

196. I'm not even the one who first brought up the Powell analogy

I wonder why you didn't tell that person to stop interchanging black figures. Quick guess: Because he/she was defending the same view you hold.

[bettyellen]

204. your post all totally go off topic and twist weird stuff together, totally illogical and totally BS

[Becky72]

206. First, you wondered why I didn't reply to the Powell comment. Now you beg me to stop

Now you beg me to please not talk about Powell because "black people are not interchangeable," as you realize the Powell analogy wasn't a good idea.

but earlier it was sooo imperative that I address the Powell issue.

[bettyellen]

213. you used Powell as if he were to be treated as POTUS and thats wrong-u chose Colin why??

that's the question- what made you think to treat them both as equals or equate them? this is what i'd like to know.


and it was not my Powell comment, i did n't bring him up originally and I merely pointed out you cut and run because you were pwned on that issue.

onus question: are you aware understand the concept of context, and how you should maybe put things in it?

[Becky72]

219. What a surprise! A person says his opponent in the argument has been "pwned"

What better judge that one of the people involved in the argument, right? Hehe.

Anyways, I think you have struggled mightily in trying to spin this into making "you lie" a racist statement. First I "cut and run" then I was begged to stop talking about Powell because black people are not "interchangeable."

Sorry that it all backfired, since it was proved that when a black person behaves like an ultraconservative, neocons love him/her.

[ScreamingMeemie]

37. No, I don't think the remark itself was racist.

I think he was grandstanding for his pea brained supporters, who may be racist.

[dolphindance]

38. I sincerely believe he would NOT have done that with a white President.

Certain folks of his type just do not respect President Obama and this all stems from a deeply rooted feeling of superiority (over blacks) that informs ALL of their actions. He simply couldn't help himself because he did not see a President, he saw a black insurgent telling "lies".

They don't respect the title because we will never be good enough for them, no matter what our achievements. We didn't work for it like them. We had it hand-outs and people felt sorry for us.

[Becky72]

44. Agree. They said John Kerry faked his war injuries because he was bla...oh, wait

Nevermind.

Reminder: ultraconservatives hate Democrats.

[dolphindance]

46. Yes, but if Kerry WAS elected Prez, they would still show give a modicum of respect.

If only grudgingly. It is the white privilege.

They hate the Democratic policies of Obama, but his race is like a dash of red pepper that brings their rage to a volcanic craziness.

[Becky72]

47. do you have a crystal ball? How do you know what would have happened?

There is absolutely no way to know if this guy would have called Kerry a liar.

[dolphindance]

52. I'm black and I've seen this behavior at times my entire life. I know it when I see it.

There is a basic level of "human" civility that is extended to whites that blacks do not get. For racists, that is.

It's not about anything the President has done or didn't do. It's too early for that. It's the general audacity of having a black President leading a nation of white people. That's what is getting to them.

[Becky72]

59. You can 1) be black and 2) overplay the race card at the same time

And judging by the low recommendation count, most of us agree with me.

[dolphindance]

62. Not overplayed this time. You don't have to yell the "N" word to be racist. (n/t)

[NOLALady]

89. The race card again.

Would that be the two of diamonds?

http://www.zmag.org/znet/viewArticle/3982

[Raineyb]

118. The ace of spades perhaps?

I'm sick of that stupid phrase. More dismissive behavior from white people who claim to be allies.

[boppers]

165. Comment I heard on NPR today...

They were asking (man-on-the-street style) some of his constituents if the comment was inappropriate. One of them said (I shit you not): "He was calling a spade, a spade".

Damn near almost drove off the road.

[Raineyb]

248. I've read this comment numerous times and I really don't have anything to say

I was being sarcastic with my ace of spades comment but I suspect there was no sarcasm involved in that rather nasty pun.

[Raineyb]

117. Ding ding ding!

Of course this level of civility that is not extended to blacks also includes scolding black people when they call something out as racist and telling them something they see as racist is in fact not racist because they (the white person) didn't see it. And it goes on here ALL THE TIME!

Frankly I for one am rather sick of it.

[Empowerer]

131. Hear, hear!

[Empowerer]

76. Dolphin is right

Unfortunately, many people think something is racist only if it involves the use of the n-word or a lynching. But racism of the kind that we've been seeing in recent months - culminating with a Congressman's full sense of entitlement to treat the President of the United States in such a despicable way - is much more insidious and subtle.

America saw it played out last night. Sadly, all too many people continue to try to characterize it as something other than what it is.

Thank you for stating your case so strongly and eloquently. Hang in there.

[bettyellen]

156. Reminder: No one said all unfair criticism is rasicst, doesn;t mean racist shit doesn't happen.

idiotic reasoning.

[asdjrocky]

42. Nope.

Just mean spirited and stupid.

[ampad]

50. I think his attitude

and past actions speak for themselves. I think his strong reaction came from racism. I have had my fair share of interaction with racist. What I notice about them is the underlying anger. It seems that the anger becomes agitated whenever they are expected to treat a person of color as an equal. It is even worse when that person outranks them. His reaction could of been strictly partisan. I cannot say for 100% sure that it was not. However, my opinion is that there was some aspect of racism coming from the man. Whatever it might be, he has proven that he should not be holding a position of authority.

I understand that quite a few politicians lie or tweak the truth; unfortunately it comes with the job. However, this man blurted out a lie for all the world.Even after it was proved that he lied he continue with his nonsense. Anyone that takes the time to fact check or read knows that he is lying. We all know that he is an asshole. I also think we all know that he knows that he is a boldface liar. What would make a person do something like that? I guess we all have to look at this from our own point of view. I think each person will have a different take on it depending on life experiences.

It truly is sickening to watch a grown man behave like a three year old. At least a three year old can make themselves look cute when they are having a fit. It truly was a sad, pathetic, display of emotion.

[CitizenPatriot]

57. I think people are forgetting

that racism is not about a true hatred of a black person. It is a TOOL used by the privileged to maintain the status quo. therefore, it is implemented in subtle ways to maintain power and stoke the fires of resentment in the poverty striken whites. This has been going on forever.

The comment does not have to be about race to be racist.

Frankly, I don't care if it was racist or not, but I do know that it was rooted in racism. I challenge anyone who lives in the south right now and is familiar with SC politics to say otherwise. The Muslim smears and "Obama Osama" smears against Obama on their government websites, the effigies in people's front yards, state senators calling Obama the anti-Christ on their official gov sites -- read the local papers there. I think you'll be hard pressed to not barf first and then realize that the strain of racism is implicit in the very fabric of their government in SC. It doesn't need to announce itself.

Remember the fundies moved there en masse to impact the primaries. add that up with SC civil war history and it's not pretty.

We don't have to rely upon calling it racism in order to establish he was out of line, as he was out of line either way. So, if it floats your boat to think otherwise, go ahead. Sure, they treated Clinton with disrespect, too. He was also sneeringly referred to as the "First Black President".

[bettyellen]

127. this should be an OP, too many people here think you have to use the N word or it ain't racist

[CitizenPatriot]

245. thanks

It amazes me that people don't see the connection between entrenched power and racism/bigotry/patriarchy/ etc.

hate as a political weapon always serves a purpose for those in power. I wrote something about this recently and was told that I hadn't make a connection between, for example, the gym shooter and racism (this was true, I had failed to articulate the connection, but I knew they were connected psychologically). To me, a person hates the "other" (anyone- gays, women, ethnic groups) because he/she feels powerless (or wants to maintain power), and is operating from the same seat of misplaced rage and resentment that the GOP has been exploiting to win elections for 40 years.

So I started studying the psychology of rage and resentment, and it became clearer to me. And then Max Blumenthal and Frank Schaeffer started explaining that this was a deliberate weapon (the WMDs have been found) of the GOP/religious right.

There's certainly much more to be explored on this subject; but to dismiss it outright is to miss a vital aspect of what we are up against in the Teabagging Hatriot movement.

I didn't make this an OP because I don't have time to respond to the comments right now-- but I will try to write about soon and post it here. You're welcome to repost anything I've written in any way you think would be helpful.

[Rebubula]

58. Jebus Tap Dancing Christ!!

Why does everything need to have a racial slant?

The guy may be a racist, but unless I am missing something - just being a loud obnoxious asshole that breaks protocol and calls the President a liar does not equate racism.

Sheesh...everyone wants to see the boogeyman...

[msallied]

74. No need to yell. We're trying to have an adult conversation here.

[Rebubula]

186. Yelling??

Where do you see all-caps?

So...do you have a rebuttal other than that? An adult conversation does not usually include knee jerk statements that presume to know the mind of a stranger.

The man is an asshole, to be sure. However, to attempt to attach racist motives to an ignorant statement is silly and presumptive.

[msallied]

243. I'm jerking MY knee?

You obviously didn't read my post, which actually involved a good bit more critical thinking than your decidedly kneejerk response. There is sometimes a difference between a person's words and the motivations which spur them.

[bigwillq]

60. I believe Wilson is a racist.

I don't believe the remark was racist.

[Becky72]

69. That pretty much sums it all up n/t

[treestar]

73. Bingo

Joe Wilson would not have done it to a white President, even if a Democrat.

[geek_sabre]

254. how could you possibly know that? nt

[uponit7771]

85. YEap, I don't know Wilson but I do know the GOP and southern conservatives recent history

[johnaries]

63. No, just stupid. Although being a racist is stupid, you don't

have to be a racist to be stupid.

Although he may be a racist as well, this particular comment was just stupid and not racist in and of itself.

[dionysus]

70. i don't think the statement on it's own is racist, but it most likely was delivered from a racist

[jeffrey_X]

75. There is a connection to be made for sure. The lack of respect can certainly..

connected with someone who is a racist. it's a big leap, but the connection can be made through critical thinking.

[joeycola]

77. No. But it was rude and stupid.

[firedupdem]

78. "You Lie" isn't racist, but the reason he felt it was okay to yell it

out is. He has no respect for the man in the office. Plain and simple. He was boiling over with hate, and disgust that the President was even standing there.

[Jackeens]

81. + 1,000

:thumbsup:

[AspenRose]

255. And Maureen Dowd agrees with you

(Insert broken clock right twice a day quote here)

[Raine]

79. Would a white president be treated that rude and with such disrespect

that's my question and looking at the past ... they haven't been.

[Beacool]

80. Oh, please......................

There is not a day that goes by that someone here doesn't call critics of Obama racists.

Were those who bashed Bush, Clinton, Reagan, Carter and every other WHITE president we ever had racists too???

Wilson is a jerk, but calling Obama a liar does not make him a racist.

:eyes:

[uponit7771]

84. Yeah!!! Lets ignore the GOPs racist past and the Southern conservatives attitudes towards blacks...

...and then try to equate the same to Bush!!!

YEAH!!!

[Beacool]

93. Actually, the Democrats in the South were the racists of the past.

Up until not that many decades ago, it was the "Dixiecrats" who were proud of their racist roots. Let's not forget that Lincoln was a Republican.

[firedupdem]

86. Wouldn't expect any different from you...that comment makes no

fucking sense.

When did anybody get up and yell "whore" at Bill? Or "dumbfuck" at Bush? or "prune face" at reagan?

Furthermore, how do you know what the hell is racist? Ever experienced it?

[Beacool]

90. What makes no sense is calling people who criticize the president "racists".

Criticism comes with the job, every president has suffered it. Yes, racism is alive and well in the USA, but the label "racist" is used far too loosely and frequently. Opposing Obama on policy does not necessarily make anyone a racist, even a Republican.

[firedupdem]

97. Nobody is talking about criticism...but you know that already...

The blatant disrespect for this president is like no other. What happened last night has never happened to any other president.

Nice of you to determine what label is used too loosely and frequently, when you haven't spent one day experiencing it.

[Beacool]

100. Every president has been disrespected at one time or another.

Remember how Dems booed Bush loudly during his 2005 State of the Union? I think Wilson is a major idiot, but I wouldn't call him a racist just for that outburst.

[firedupdem]

107. You wouldn't call him anything but justified in what he did. Again

you're comparing booing, with what happened last night.
You know the difference, but carry on.

[Beacool]

109. And you know the difference between boorish behavior and racism,

but carry on too.

[firedupdem]

111. Yep, I've seen plenty cowards talk a lot of shit in a crowd but one

on one, cave the same way that racist ass wilson did today.

[Raineyb]

119. It makes no sense to you because you refuse to see it. As you seem not to be able

to recognize it perhaps you shouldn't have the nerve to try to tell someone with more experience recognizing racism what they did and didn't see.

That would be a hell of a lot better than the paternalistic attitude you're displaying now.

[quiller4]

252. No but he has long been active in the Sons of the Confederacy

and that strongly suggests that he holds racist beliefs.

[Uzybone]

82. The comment itself is obviously not racist

but after reading a bit about the guy, I believe racism was a factor in why he felt so free to insult the President in a setting like that. Not that we should be surprised, the is a southern GOP congressman...most of them are racist to varying degrees.

[firedupdem]

83. Exactly. He felt empowered, and emboldened and free to yell

that out at this President. No other president been yelled at and called a liar, murderer, or even a whore! It's one thing to grumble and moan, but the name calling is a different issue. But he was shaking and sweating and being a complete wuss today, not so tough without his buddies there to support him.

[Phx_Dem]

88. In this case, I think so but ask an African American. I'm not sure White people

truly know racism unless it's in their heart. We've never been on the receiving end, and those of us who are not from the South don't know dog whistles from train whistles.

The actual words "You Lie" are not racist, but I believe the motivation to say them was. No President has ever been treated with this kind of disrespect and with such threats of violence, by U.S. politicians, as this President has. Coincidence that he's the first bi-racial President? Not when you consider who the people are who are making the comments. Joe Wilson's biography is telling; he's a confederate flag loving and supporting member of the Veterans of Confederate Sons and a former aid for Strom Thrumond.

So, yeah. In this case, I think racism was what motivated him.

http://crooksandliars.com/david-neiwert/obama-heckler-joe-wilson-member-neo

[musicblind]

95. I've been on the recieving end of homophobia. I know it's not the same thing but

I live in a very conservative town and am openly gay. I've had the word "faggot" scrawled on my driveway, and dead snakes put in my mailbox.

I think that Wilson's remarks were racist. I DON'T think Wilson "knows" he is a racist, but look at history, look at the outcry from republicans... What is upsetting them so much this time? What is different this time?

I strongly believe that had Obama not been born half-black then Wilson would not have done what he did. The right hated Clinton but nobody shouted "you lie" while he addressed the congress. Again, you have to wonder... what's the difference?

The difference is obvious to anyone on the outside looking in. We are watching the last throws of an isolated community of people who still have racism in their hearts. Luckily, these people will soon be forgotten.

[Phx_Dem]

96. I don't think most racists think they are racist. It's just normal for

them to hate people who are different from them or whom they deem inferior. But it doesn't make any difference whether they know they're racist or not. I'm sure they're plenty of psychopaths who don't know they're pyscho, but it doesn't change the fact that they are. Ditto for homophobes. While they know they hate gays, they think it's justified. They think it's okay, or even good, to hate them, which makes it all the more disgusting.

I don't think people who haven't walked in the shoes of those being discriminated against can truly know what it's like, and I'm sorry that you've had to experience it first-hand.

God bless.

[Becky72]

99. Gov. Patterson of NY recently said that his political troubles are due to race

I didn't see any progressive bloggers or leaders supporting that argument, but hey. He's black. He must be right!

http://www.newsday.com/long-island/nassau/paterson-blames-racism-for-his-unpopularity-1.1386367

[Beacool]

101. He's not the only one.

Rangel pulled that recently, so did Maxine Waters and the Congresswoman who went to Cuba and thinks that Castro is just spiffy.

[Empowerer]

102. What does that have to do with whether Wilson's remark was racist?

[Beacool]

105. Because I think that the left is crying racism far too frequently.

Wilson is a disgrace, but he probably would have had as much disdain for any Democratic president.

[Empowerer]

116. That's interesting - I think they don't call it out enough

And when we do, we have to deal with these kinds of "he didn't say 'n*gger' so it's not racist so stop playing the race card" discussions.

[Raineyb]

122. We don't call it out enough. But then some of us are too busy trying not to make

people like you uncomfortable.

Me, I don't give a shit and frankly I find your behavior in dismissing a segment of poster's opinion disrespectful to say the very least. Seriously, who the hell do you think you are to tell someone who has actually experienced racism that what they perceive is wrong? You really think you know better?

[Beacool]

126. People like me?

I'm not disrespecting anyone, but I'm entitled to my opinion just as any other poster on this board. Yeah, let our side call everybody and their brother a racist and let's see how well that strategy works out for us.

[bettyellen]

129. fuck your strategy nonsense okay? Pretending racism doesn't exist is hateful demroralising bullshit

and waay too much to ask of anyone who suffers from it (and you have now made it plin that;s exactly what you want) just so you can "play" a political game of apppeasemnt and making nice.
it;s always white men who ask minorities and women to play nice.
well here;s a nice big "fuck that" for you. not happening.

[Beacool]

133. OK, fine, you all win.

From now on, let's just call every damn person who opposes Obama on anything a racist.

Whatever......

[bettyellen]

135. no one said that- but thanks for being completely fucking dismissive+ selling out african americans

becuase your pet "strategy" is more important.

[Becky72]

136. Beacool didn't pretend "racism doesn't exist"

she simply doesn't see it in the incident in question.

[Beacool]

137. Thanks

BTW, I'm a she. I just didn't bother correcting the other poster.

Let's say that Hilary was president, would it be acceptable to call all those who opposed her healthcare proposal sexists? But that's precisely what Rangel, Waters and that Congresswoman whose name I don't recall did, but using race instead of gender.

[bettyellen]

139. "our side call everybody and their brother a racist and let's see how well that strategy works "

uh huh.

[bettyellen]

138. he's telling afrcan americans that their perceptions are wrong -not because he actually belives they

are wrong, he just doesn't think it;s good strategy to "play the card". i agree it's not great for Obama to go there-it's a diversion they would love. and he doesn;t need to really, but to tell everyone who has experienced racism to STFU and get to the back of the bus because he prefers it that way-and read all hs posts because it is in there - the what and the way- fuck that. I have heard this strategy touted before, and once again F to uck that.

[Beacool]

142. Try reading profiles once in a while.

This "he" is a "she'.

[Becky72]

143. Actually, Beacool said "the left" cries race too much

In a recent message, he said, "Because I think that the left is crying racism far too frequently."

The left includes people of different races.

[bettyellen]

145. and you accuse blacks of "overplaying the racecard" ...why don't you go back and finish your chat...

about Colin Powell upthread? you ran off w/ tail between your legs just as it was getting interesting. an i got nothong to say to the ikes of you.

[Becky72]

172. If they didn't say these things during Colin Powell speeches, it's not racist, according to you

You 1) didn't mention the public figures who said Colin Powell endorsed Obama because of her color, nor did you 2) prove that they did it during Colin Powell speeches.

[bettyellen]

183. you need to learn to reason, LOL. this is ridiculous . learn to extrapolate, ok?

because this is nonsense.

[Raineyb]

189. Did I stutter? No that can't be it this is the written word.

Yes, I said people like you. Those who are seemingly so uncomfortable with discussing race that they bend over backwards to deny even the most blatant examples of it never mind the more insidious examples.

Once again you twist what is said. No one said to call everyone and their brother a racist. What we're saying is stop disrespecting those of us who point out the racism we see by immediately dismissing it without considering it and deliberately misconstruing what is said. (You know what you just did) No where did I say lets' call everyone who opposes Obama racist and you damn well know it. But it seems to play into your game of "let's play victim at the hands of the tumultuous black folks" game so you use that. It's disingenuous and fucking disrespectful. But then I suppose black people don't warrant enough consideration to pretend to be respectful do we?

[Beacool]

191. I have no problem whatsoever discussing race.

My point is that anyone calling the president a liar does not automatically mean that he is a racist. Ditto for those who oppose healthcare reform. Wilson was definitely rude, disrespectful and his behavior was way out of line, but that doesn't necessarily make him a racist unless this is a pattern of behavior.

[Raineyb]

198. Hello! Sons of confederate veterans!

Says that Strom Thurmond's daughter's existence is a smear to his name! What more do you need?

[suzie]

241. But in this case, our side is not calling everybody and their brother

a racist. Our side is calling an individual whose past statements, votes, memberships and associations give every indication that he is a racist, a racist.

Sorta different, don't you think?

[firedupdem]

104. the only one what?

Black person that has experienced discrimination?

Glad a white person like you is around to tell them if it's justified or not.

[Becky72]

106. So you agree with Patterson that his political troubles are racial in nature? n/t

[Beacool]

108. You're in Nebraska, do you know more about Patterson than we know here?

Patterson dug his own political grave. His race and lack of sight have nothing to do with his low polling. To claim otherwise was a cop out on his behalf.

[firedupdem]

110. It wouldn't matter where the hell I am, or where I've been...

If someone says they are being discriminated against, I don't dare tell them they are wrong or lying. That's the difference between me and you.

[suzie]

177. And you're in New Jersey, do you know more about the South

than those who live there?

Because I'm white, I'm from the South, I could qualify to be a Daughter of the Confederacy, and yes, Wilson said it because of racism.

[firedupdem]

103. Since we haven't walked in his shoes, we don't know what he's

dealt with to make him feel that way, but since you're white.....you would definitely know if he's right or wrong on this one. :eyes:

[Becky72]

112. Unlike others, I never said my skin color gave me an advantage in spotting racism

I use my critical thinking skills, and I'm not ready to give them up. If Nelson Mandela came up to me and told me that a white man is racist simply because he called him "liar," in public, I would thank him for his great contributions to society but I would tell him he's wrong in that particular instance.

I'm Hispanic, by the way.

[firedupdem]

120. Calling someone a liar isn't racist. Calling the commander

in chief, President of the United states a liar, in the middle of an address to lawmakers and the nation is something quite different. This has NEVER happened to any other president. So what changed? My critical thinking skills tell me it's racism. Booing and Hissing at these addresses is quite normal, name calling is not. So what changed? Why did it happen this time? When did having respect for the office of the president end? He felt quite justified in yelling that out. That's what racist cowards do...yell shit from crowds. I know this because I've experienced it. It is what it is. Superior Joe was letting "that one" know how he fucking felt and he didn't care who heard it...just like the rest of the freeper teabaggers of this racist ass country.

[Becky72]

130. By your logic, Joe Wilson is the first racist congressman in the history of the United States

The weird logic here is that, "because X happened for the 1st time, then it must be racist."

Doesn't make sense to me. There have been and there are several racist congressmen, even if they have not yelled "liar" at the President in public.

[bettyellen]

140. you think that just because heckling with disrespect can be racist- that no other behaviour is??

um, so much for critical thinking. you need to read up some kid, i don;t know what to say to you.

[Becky72]

168. You are the one acting as if racism is the ONLY behavior that can make a person lie

Which leads us to conclude that you are simply guessing. And when a person bases his assumption in guesswork, that assumption is not going to gather a lot of support, as seen in the recommendation count.

[firedupdem]

144. Do you like coming across as ignorantly as you are? When have

we had a black president prior to this one? We can end this back and forth now. You will never be able to tell me how a coward ass racist behaves when he feels nothing but pure hatred for someone else. I know how they act, I've seen it up close and personal. Joe sat there boiling over that this black man, clearly superior to his rusty ass, was speaking to the country and he had to fucking sit there and take it. How dare this great country allow this shit? Yup, boiled over and yelled out. Never would have happened to any other president and you know it.

He and strom were birds of a feather....he even slammed the man's daughter when she revealed who her white father was. He is a piece of shit and it's not surprising that he was the dumb fuck that couldn't contain himself.

But yeah, you go ahead and defend this piece of shit racist ass, says a lot about the both of you.

[Becky72]

169. Are you saying that Joe Wilson is the only racist congressman in the 111th Congress?

Because now racism is determined by whether or not a congressman yells liar during a speech and only during a speech.

By your logic, An overwhelming number of Republican congressmen are post-racial, since they don't yell liar during a speech, except for Wilson.

Such race-baiting logic is twisted.

[Raineyb]

190. Are you really this daft or do you deliberately work to

misconstrue what you read and come off as imbecilic?

[NOLALady]

231. I'm trying to figure if

some of the posters believe what they are saying or if they are deliberately trying to inflame.

It's easier to believe that they are pretending to be stupid. Heaven help us all if they are not pretending.

[bettyellen]

236. I think they are deliberately obtuse and inflammatory.

no one is that stupid.

[Raineyb]

123. You've done nothing but show your LACK critical thinking skills

And if you don't see the racism behind Rep. Wilson's decision to yell liar during Obama's speech then I'd have to say you're either blind or stupid. Which is it?

[Name removed]

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[NOLALady]

149. Truer words were never spoken.

Many are willfully blind.


as per Tim Wise http://www.zmag.org/znet/viewArticle/3982

"Nothing, absolutely nothing, has to do with race nowadays, in the eyes of white America writ large. But the obvious question is this: if we have never seen racism as a real problem, contemporary to the time in which the charges are being made, and if in all generations past we were obviously wrong to the point of mass delusion in thinking this way, what should lead us to conclude that now, at long last, we've become any more astute at discerning social reality than we were before? Why should we trust our own perceptions or instincts on the matter, when we have run up such an amazingly bad track record as observers of the world in which we live? In every era, black folks said they were the victims of racism and they were right. In every era, whites have said the problem was exaggerated, and we have been wrong.

Unless we wish to conclude that black insight on the matter--which has never to this point failed them--has suddenly converted to irrationality, and that white irrationality has become insight (and are prepared to prove this transformation by way of some analytical framework to explain the process), then the best advice seems to be that which could have been offered in past decades and centuries: namely, if you want to know about whether or not racism is a problem, it would probably do you best to ask the folks who are its targets. They, after all, are the ones who must, as a matter of survival, learn what it is, and how and when it's operating. We whites on the other hand, are the persons who have never had to know a thing about it, and who--for reasons psychological, philosophical and material--have always had a keen interest in covering it up.

In short, and let us be clear on it: race is not a card. It determines whom the dealer is, and who gets dealt."

[Name removed]

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[bettyellen]

227. people here are NOT agreeing the statement itself was racist at all- and you know it!

everyone is saying wilsons racism (a well documented thing) led him to behave in an over the top, totally disrepectful totally unprecedented way. kinda like the way people were yelling lych the ni85427 at palins ralllies and being applauded. that there is a new low standard of behaviour accepted that has no relation to hateful crap being printed in newpapers or how Colin Powell was treated or whatever other dumbass tangent you see fit to try to drag in to this to get off point and ignore the context-that this was congress and POTUS. Context is need for analysis, get some.

[Jennicut]

121. We don't know that...its was rude and disrepectful of the office of the Presidency and of Congress

[mzmolly]

141. The comment wasn't racist, but the notion that he can speak this

way to the President of the United States in that setting, is IMHO.

[bettyellen]

146. same as when they call him "that man" or don;t know where "he's from" just because they have

deniability, doesn't make it plausible.

[mzmolly]

151. Exactly.

Makes me sick.

[TheKentuckian]

154. Obviously not. Anyone can be a liar, just like Wilson. His remark was a bold faced lie

but

Don't breathe on the surface, much less scratch it because you don't have to go to deep to see bigot.

1. Republican-Sure, all Republicans aren't racist and all racists aren't Republican but I find it easy to believe (know) most Republicans are racist. They are complete xenophobes that work to undermine civil rights and promote poverty.

2. Rebel flag waiver

3. Son of the Confederacy

4. Understudy of Strom Thurmond

5. This is a current Lt Colonel in the reserves that couldn't muster the discipline to bridle his tongue towards not just a superior but the CiC. It is hard to believe that he'd blow that much restraint and decorum over a disagreement over policy interpretation on the floor of the House. That's deep.

6. Seems to have a problem with immigrants from south of the border.

Seems like undercover Klan to me but it is all but impossible for "You Lie!!!" to be a racist statement.

Also, I tend to believe that if the term "race card" is in your vocabulary you probably have some serious issues with race your self. Who the fuck says that shit besides douchebags on Fox and rednecks?

[firedupdem]

155. +10000.....Thank You! n/t

[Milo_Bloom]

161. Of course not.

He may or may not be a racist, but the remark was not.

[akbacchus_BC]

164. No, I do not think Joe Wilson was racist, he is just a moron!

[Name removed]

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[Raineyb]

185. You really get your rocks off disrespecting a whole group of people

who are supposed to be allies don't you? This type of bullshit is exactly why some black people really can't be bothered dealing with certain types of so called progressives. You're dismissive attitude is as bad as any redneck Republicans.

Congratulations, I can't wait until your overdeveloped sense of superiority comes back to bite your sorry ass.

[Overseas]

246. Just coincidentally a member of the Sons of Confederate Veterans.

Just coincidentally wanted to fly the Confederate flag in state buildings.

[a la izquierda]

178. I don't think what he said was...

but I'm a white woman, so I'm not about to tell anyone who was offended by those ridiculous comments that such words weren't racist.

I am just delighted that South Carolina's repukes are making such asses of themselves. I'm going to my best friend's parent's home in Charleston, for Christmas. They're conservative in a fiscal sense, and I can't wait to ask them what they think.

[Overseas]

247. Ask them about the Sons of Confederate Veterans group

that Wilson belonged to.

And whether they agree with Wilson that the Confederate flag should be displayed on state buildings.

[olegramps]

180. Is the pope a Catholic?

His remark, I believe was motivated by his racist attitudes and I think that he thought that it would be well received by his fellow Republicans. It only shows just how damn stupid the racist bastard is in that he was left hanging in the wind and quickly abandoned. What is even more disgusting to me is the lame attempt by the FOX propaganda machine to attempt to justify it. He epitomizes just how divided this nation is as a result of the constant hatred spewed by the right wing extremists.

[workinclasszero]

187. I think he is a typical dumb ass freeper

Of course those freeps are racist pricks but I think the so-called "honorable" Joe Wilson just had a teabagging flashback at President O's speech.

He was prolly possessed by the EVIL spirit of Beck and Limpballs, ya know? The devil made him do it!:evilgrin:

[DevonRex]

195. It was racist against Latinos since they are his target. And it's racist against Obama

since there's no way he would have done that to a white President.

[nemo137]

201. I don't think he would have said it to a white president.

But then, the right in this country has become so hateful in the past few years, who knows? But I doubt it.

[Hansel]

202. I think the blatant breach of decorum was motivated by racism, yes.

I don't think Wilson would have been emboldened to use this setting nor would he have been as hysterical and emotionally out-of-control if Obama wasn't Black. A LOT of the emotion on the right is ginned up out of fear cause by guilt of what this Black man might to do them in order to repay the White race for what they have done. Wilson is showing an irrational and hysterical distrust and fear of Obama.

Plus, HR 3200 is not Obama's bill. They don't even have enough respect for him to allow him to speak for himself.

[The Green Manalishi]

203. if you consider it so,

then is it impossible to make any criticism of any nonwhite person without being racist?

I mean of course I think Wilson's an idiot and President Obama is right on; I just think that accusations of racism, as with those of fraud or treason, should be reserved for where it is really the case. I've had several bosses who were assholes; one of them was African American; the fact that I considered the fellow an asshole had nothing to do with skin color and everything to do with actions and character.

President Obama is articulate, intelligent and doing an excellent job in his first year; he is arguably the most progressive president we've had since Roosevelt; A hard core conservative who is scared shitless by the foregoing is not necessarily "racist" (obviously, they well could be) even if they vociferously disagree with our president's policies.


IMHO tossing around "racist" to describe garden variety assholes only weakens the term vis a vis its application to real racists.

[ecstatic]

211. "Liar" is not a racial term. But his attitude and behavior

is that of a racist man. To be so infuriated at the idea of an "illegal immigrant" (code for Mexican) getting healthcare that he becomes the first person in history to shout at a President (the first Black president?!!)? The only question is--who does he hate more: blacks or non-white immigrants? :shrug:

[polichick]

216. The remark wasn't racist, but that says nothing of the man who made it. nt

[Enthusiast]

226. No. nt

[CrystalGail]

234. Whatever it is I think I see

becomes a Tootsie Roll to me

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qayjR8Qbyfc


That's all I have to say about that!

[Overseas]

237. Just a coincidence the remark came from Sons of Confederate Veterans member.

Golly gee, just because he's a member of the white supremacist group Sons of Confederate Veterans, and the first congressperson to call a President a liar during an address to both houses of Congress, and that president just happens to be half-black-- oh good golly, how ever could that be a racist comment?

:sarcasm:

[suzie]

240. Yes, golly gee. +10

[road2000]

249. Yes, I have no doubt it was racist.

There is a climate of disrespect, bordering on disbelief, among the hard-core wingers. The laughter and the ridiculous brandishing of papers in the air was pervasive among them. Wilson just voiced what they were all feeling.

[yodoobo]

250. Of course it was

[fortyfeetunder]

251. I think it was stupid and disrespectful - not good role modeling

If Rep. Wilson had an honest disagreement with the POTUS, certainly he could have picked a private time to discuss his points. But shouting out "You lie" is clearly disrespectful, inappropriate and stupid.

It also does not lend itself well to role modeling. I suspect impressionable youth will believe Rep. Wilson's actions are condoned and may try this at home or at school with an authority figure.

[Name removed]

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