Buy Insurance or Go to Jail?

[masuki bance]

Violators Will Face Up to One Year in Jail

"...The latest spark is a letter that Thomas Barthold, the chief of staff to the nonpartisan Joint Committee on Taxation, sent Thursday to Sen. John Ensign, R-Nev.

Given that the health-care bill written by Finance Committee Chairman Max Baucus contains a $1,900 fee (or excise tax) for not buying health insurance, Ensign wanted to know what would happen if an American didn't pay the penalty.

In a handwritten letter, Barthold told Ensign that under an existing provision of the Internal Revenue Code, willful failure to pay a fine can result in being charged with a misdemeanor which could carry a penalty of up to $25,000, or up to a year in jail, or both. The handwritten letter was a follow-up to an answer that Barthold gave Ensign during Thursday's mark-up of the Baucus bill.

...

Despite the fact that there is broad support for an individual mandate among Democratic politicians, the insurance industry, many experts, and even a few Republicans, Barthold's letter potentially hands the GOP a big new weapon in the fight against Democratic efforts to overhaul the nation's health-care system.

View Barthold's letter to Ensign by clicking http://a.abcnews.go.com/images/Politics/Barthold_letter.pdf">HERE.

It was scanned by Ensign's Senate office and provided to ABC News. The accuracy of its contents was confirmed by the nonpartisan Joint Committee on Taxation. "

http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/2009/09/buy-insurance-or-go-to-jail-.html

Will the government actually enforce this penalty?

[MichiganVote]

1. Ohhh please...let them take someone to jail over this...totally toothless legislation

[Zavulon]

26. If it passes, it gives the government the chance to enforce it selectively.

It's absolutely outrageous legislation, whether it eventually becomes toothless or not.

[MichiganVote]

39. Never stand up in court and Obama looks like an idiot even talking about it.

[Zavulon]

52. Then why is it in the bill, assuming the reports are correct? (NT)

[Avalux]

2. I think the compromise is a simple one then.

Pukes agree to a public option and Dems take out the "fee". Simple.

[Truthiness Inspector]

55. In other words, extortion. n/t

[elleng]

3. Even thinking of asking such a question here

suggests the near impossibility of getting thru the absurdity teabaggers and their ilk spent their summer spreading around the country.

[masuki bance]

5. No penalty for not buying insurance?

[elleng]

6. There's a lot of space between JAIL and NO PENALTY, isn't there?

Its absurd to believe that anything like a harsh penalty would survive, if anything at all does.

[Zavulon]

33. It's in the bill.

What kind of fucked-up mind could have come up with this? I'd have expected this from Tom Coburn, not our side.

[hokies]

42. I'm not surprised. I knew this was coming as soon as Hillary proposed it.

And clearly you have to have a penalty if you want people to follow the mandate.

[Zavulon]

49. Do you view this as good? (NT)

[hokies]

57. No, I really don't like it

Clearly the main beneficiaries will be the insurance companies who will get tens of millions of new customers. The public option is way overhyped too, since it's estimated that only a small fraction of the american people will be on it.

I knew that health reform would be bad when the details of the Obama administration's deal with the pharmaceutical companies was leaked. I found it odd that the pharma companies promised savings NOT TO EXCEED $80 billion. If the American people were getting a fair shake, then the language would have been AT LEAST $80 billion. The fact that they were capping the cost savings to the American people told me everything I needed to know.

[Zavulon]

73. Well, welcome to DU.

I'm glad to have a new kindred spirit here. What you just wrote is exactly what I've been saying for quite some time. :)

[ohheckyeah]

4. n/t

[old mark]

7. You have free healthcare in jail......nt

[boppers]

12. Wait, so I can pay $600 a month for healthcare, or get it free in jail?

Uhm, apparently this was written by people who don't understand jail. There are, quite literally, millions of people who would rather be locked up and live a few years longer than die in poverty, trying to pay some insurance company.

[old mark]

13. Even get free food, rent.....sadly, you are right-there are many people today

who feel more secure in prison, and some see it as an easier life than being free. I worked with a lot of institutionalised people over the years, and it's very hard for them to face being "outside" - they really have to learn to exist in a new world.

mark

[NYC_SKP]

8. WOW-- That's the TOP STORY on DRUDGE, just checked top item on left column...

It is a wonderment.

:puke:

[masuki bance]

9. Does that mean that it's debunked? nt

[jefferson_dem]

16. Of course it is.

The OP lurves him/her some drudge-fueled yellow journalism.

[PBS Poll-435]

62. Me fail English? Thats unpossible!

:hi:

[NYC_SKP]

68. !

LOL @ "unpossible" :P

:hi:

[johnaries]

10. It's not "not paying a fine", It's not paying your taxes.

And if someone doesn't pay their taxes, then why shouldn't they go to jail?

[Zavulon]

27. So it's a tax increase, then.

A regressive one, which is completely counter to Obama's promise. Great.

[cherokeeprogressive]

45. THAT should be the big news here.

"Given that the health-care bill written by Finance Committee Chairman Max Baucus contains a $1,900 fee (or excise tax) for not buying health insurance, Ensign wanted to know what would happen if an American didn't pay the penalty."

[Zavulon]

51. Honestly, I couldn't be more disgusted.

I can't bring myself to vote for a Repug, but if this flies it looks like I might be staying home in November of 2012.

[hokies]

11. Nobody will go to jail

obviously. They'll just have to pay a monetary penalty.

[rug]

14. And when they don't pay it they'll go to jail for contempt of court.

How did a campaign for public health care become another vehicle for putting people in jail?

[hokies]

23. Thankfully the Dem leadership is too spineless to send someone to jail

and you can take that to the bank. Just look at how quickly Max Baucus appeased Joe "You Lie" Wilson. Plus Fixed News is hyping this story about the potential for jail time, so you know the Dem leadership won't have the balls to do it.

[Zavulon]

28. The fact that they even COULD imprison people over this legislation is bad enough,

and people will go to jail when the Republicans are back in charge. I don't see how anyone can support or excuse this.

[Bluenorthwest]

15. And if they can not pay it?

What then? Or if they refuse?

[jefferson_dem]

17. So do you not support universal coverage?

n/t

[IndianaGreen]

22. Medicare for all is universal coverage, while Baucus bill is bullshit!

Embrace mandates at your own political peril!

[Zavulon]

29. How do you support a threat of imprisonment as part of universal coverage?

Oh, and most people put "n/t" in the subject line. It saves us the trouble of clicking on your post and seeing nothing but "n/t," which we could figure out all for ourselves even without the "n/t."

[jefferson_dem]

34. Not so sure I buy into the whole "threat of imprisonment" boogyman that you, Hannity, and Drudge...

toss out there.

But I do thank you for the DU posting tip. You sound like quite the expert. :)

[Zavulon]

36. So the Politico has this wrong, then?

It wouldn't be the first time, but this would be a big ball to drop, even for them.

Do you have anything to refute it, or are you just going to accuse me of marching in lockstep with Hannity and Drudge?

[jefferson_dem]

37. Check out grantcart's thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8671777&mesg_id=8671777

Simply put, if we want to A: work within but reform the current system and; B: provide (virtually) universal coverage while bringing down costs; the program must include a requirement that everyone be insured. Of course, the program must also include means-tested wavers and subsidies to ensure coverage is accessible to all regardless of income.

I understand how one might not want to be lumped in with Ensign, Hannity, Drudge, and Politico health care reform fear-mongers.

[Zavulon]

38. It doesn't answer my question, though...

...does the current legislation provide for jail terms?

I'm against mandates in this case anyway; this is nothing more than a way for Obama to be able to use accounting trickery to claim he's not raising our taxes ("It's not a tax increase, you're buying it," - as if I have a choice). Nor do I trust the means testing and subsidies to be done in a fair or competent manner. I'd prefer to simply see taxes go up and have it taken out of my hands with no potential penalty rather than this crap.

And before you go off on your Hannity accusations again, I don't listen to him - and I bet he wouldn't prefer a tax increase.

[hokies]

24. IRS enforces the tax code, so they will take care of it.

Probably would end up garnishing people's wages.

[masuki bance]

25. What would they do if you have no wages?

Take your unemployment check?

[Zavulon]

31. Yes. Or your welfare check.

You're not being given a choice about not being able to afford it. You WILL afford it. Food is secondary, you must support the health care for others who will be sharing cells with you.

And people here are actually behind this idea.

[hokies]

40. Well, I personally don't like the individual mandate for health care

so don't shoot the messenger. :nuke: :hide: :nuke:

But I seriously doubt people will be going to jail over this. The media would have a field day against Democrats and the Dems know it.

Also, Republicans support the individual mandate too, so there isn't much of a political price for Dems to pay for this. Kind of like sending more troops to Afghanistan.

[Zavulon]

54. Just my opinion, but the potential for abuse here is unacceptable. (NT)

[JTFrog]

43. If you get a welfare check, you already get free health care.

You do realize this right?

[Zavulon]

53. I know next to nothing about welfare, but

I have a couple of neighbors who would be surprised to learn what you posted. Do you by any chance know of a good FAQ link on this?

[JTFrog]

60. Why yes, yes I do. I'll even post the link specifically for your state...

http://www.dhmh.state.md.us/mma/Eligibility/MAelig-2006Q&A.html

5. How can I get Medicaid?

All people who receive money through Supplemental Security Income or Temporary Cash Assistance automatically receive Medicaid.


If your neighbors actually collect a welfare check and are honestly surprised by this, I'll eat this post.

I'm not surprised, however, that you know next to nothing about welfare given the bullshit you spouted in this thread. And I guess it shouldn't surprise me that you're spreading disinformation about things you know next to nothing. It seems to be a common pursuit around here.

[hokies]

69. Oh I can feel the love

:rofl:

[Zavulon]

71. Wow, your argumentative skills impress me.

So much so, in fact, that you've bored me into never reading anything you write again.

I'd tell you how and why you could eat your post, how many holes there in public outreach regarding welfare, but I care so little about what you think that I couldn't be bothered.

Take your attitude and ignorance and consult your local proctologist. You'd be doing all of us a favor.

[JTFrog]

75. Your argumentative skills are such that you run away when proven you've been talking out your ass?

Your attitude and ignorance in spreading bullshit rw propaganda in this thread suggest that even a proctologist can't help you at this point.

[Zavulon]

30. Comforting.

"Probably" doesn't eliminate the possibility of a jail term for someone who simply can't afford this new charge, which is in fact a tax increase.

I can't believe this is even being proposed. Makes me sick.

[hokies]

41. Obama changed in favor of the mandate to please the insurance companies

This is obvious to even the casual observer. The Dem leadership is worried about creating too many corporate and powerful enemies.

[Zavulon]

50. And your opinion on this is... ? (NT)

[hokies]

58. Well, it's not change I can believe in

I think his administration needs to understand that lower costs to the people and high profits for the pharma companies don't go together. I guarantee that 10 years from now health care in the USA will still be a lot more expensive than in other industrialized countries.

:hi:

[Zavulon]

72. Exactly the answer I was hoping to get.

I'm glad I'm not alone. :hi:

[residentfan]

18. ...

Senator Max has been trying to sabotage this whole process from the beginning. This is simply another attempt by him to do so.

[gauguin57]

19. Will they take care of my healthcare while I'm in jail?

OK ... take me away! I'll be better off!

[grasswire]

20. it costs $35,000 minimum to lock someone up for a year

So taxpayers are going to pay $35,000 because someone didn't pay a fine for not buying insurance?

The world has gone mad.

[IndianaGreen]

21. IRS will freeze assets to get their money.

If any among you support this idiotic and dangerous scheme for mandates, be prepared to see the people revolt at the polls.

[Zavulon]

32. Actually, this will clean up the streets.

The government can sweep up the homeless, who will have no chance of affording this, imprison them, and boom - poverty is a crime. Oh, yeah, let's support this. :sarcasm:

[TomCADem]

35. So, You Are Citing Senator Ensign (R) As Support?

Thanks for the RW talking point!

[cherokeeprogressive]

44. Tell that to Barthold.

Here's the handwritten note he gave to Ensign. Read it and then call it a RW talking point.

Thanks in advance.

[jefferson_dem]

46. Here are some google links on the subject.

Click through a few and tell us this is NOT a right wing talking point -

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4GGLL_enUS319US319&q=Buy+Insurance+or+go+to+Jail

[cherokeeprogressive]

47. Done. No proof that it's a RW talking point other than they're all talking about these facts:

Ensign wanted to know what would happen if an American didn't pay the $1,900 fee (or excise tax) for not buying health insurance, included in the health-care bill written by Finance Committee Chairman Max Baucus;

and

Barthold responded with this:

[Ikonoklast]

48. Oh, there was a final bill, passed by Congress and signed by the president?

I must have missed that.

So much nonsense over something that hasn't even become reality.

Unrec.

[rucky]

56. This would be the time to address this kind of stuff, though.

I don't think any legislation I can think of has been drafted so transparently as this one so far. I kinda like that we're combing over the details of a work in progress, rather than wait to see what they sneak past us in the final vote.

[SpartanDem]

59. I think people are forgetting about the expansion of Medicaid

depending on the bill people up to 130 to 150% of poverty level would get Medicaid so this idea that the very poor would forced to buy insurance or go to jail isn't true.

[JTFrog]

63. It's bullshit propaganda that the haters are pushing in this mini Faux News thread. n/t

[PBS Poll-435]

64. No. You are mistaken. This thread is pure as snow or glacial springs

And Faux has had crazy mandate penalties on the crawl since Friday.

[amandabeech]

70. One hundred fifty one percent (151%) of the poverty level doesn't usually

mean that a family or an individual can afford to shell out much more than $50 a month for insurance premiums, if that.

Any mandated coverage is going to cost much, much more than that, particularly for older people even with the public option.

I understand the point of getting everyone into the system so that minor health problems don't become big ones, thus saving money. However, from everything I've read here on DU, I dont' think that the subsidies are going to be sufficient for health care to be truly affordable for those whose employers don't help significantly with the cost.

[Mimosa]

76. ^ Exactly right, Amanda. Over 45 or 50 and the insurance rates will go up^

I'm sorely disappointed by what the Democrats are doing re: healthcare. Whatever happened to progressive ideas? We've been sold out.

[masuki bance]

77. That is a big concern with the mandate. nt

[PBS Poll-435]

61. Piss in the punchbowl?

From you?


Shocking.

[Inuca]

65. Ensign's letter to the COmmittee on Taxation

is pure posturing and BS, an attempt to keep this in the public eye, not a real question. The real question was asked and answered during the FInance Committee markup discussion last week. Ensign brought up the exact same point, also emphasizing it by mentioning those people that would not want to get insurance nor pay the fine as a matter of "principle", because they are patriots and don't want the government interfering... whatever... People going to jail for not getting health insurance? What an (p)outrage! Rockefeller's answer was that in all his years of public service, including as a governor, he has never heard of anybody going to jail for something like this. His answer was more lengthly and included other arguments that made minced meat of Ensign's point, but I do not remember the rest.

[Dinger]

66. Force Me To Buy Insurance/Go To Jail= Lose My Vote

:patriot:

[mgcgulfcoast]

67. this has to be taken out.

[LooseWilly]

74. I feel constrained to point that...

The jail time comes only if you don't pay the IRS "fee"/"tax" for not paying off a health insurance HMO their protection monies.

If you decide to tell the HMOs to piss up a rope... but you pay the Revenuers their fee...then the IRS will not be likely to crawl up your ass. It's only if you decide that the "fee" for telling the private insurers that you consider them assholes and hemorrhoids an the ass of humanity... that one is liable to be prosecuted under this hemorrhoid of a law....

[olegramps]

78. It appears to me that the only reasonable reform of health care is a single payer system.

I believe, based on my reading of the bills, that all of the various proposed legislation is wholly inadequate and perhaps the "cure" may be worst than the present diseased system we have to suffer.

I think that the Democrats should have put forth only a universal single payer system and let it win or be defeated. I would be in favor of all health insurance companies going out of business unless they were non-profit. My disdain also includes life, auto, home or what ever, that is virtually mandated as in the case of auto and home insurance. Mandating that people have to purchase health insurance, with the threat of fines if they fail to do so, solely to enrich these crooks is nothing short of robbery.

Well, thats my rant.