Toon: Reverse Racism!

[Lyric]

Barry Deutsch

http://www.leftycartoons.com/a-concise-history-of-black-white-relations-in-the-united-states/

[Lilyeye]

1. My aunt will be getting this in e-mail. Thanks for sharing!

[FreedomFlower]

2. I like it.

But of course no people on the right will see it, or if they do, they won't get it.

[rebel with a cause]

3. Good one. Sure beats the one in our paper today.

Ours berates Dan Hynes (Democrat/State Controller running for Governor) for wanting the $53 million in funding to go health-care instead of for tourism. He must be an evil man...Oh, I forgot the wonderful :sarcasm: republican mayor in the paper's home town is running for that position also.

[Romulox]

4. Unrec. People aren't guilty of other's actions because they share the same skin pigment.

The correct argument is that the effects of slavery have negative consequences for African Americans that extend into 2009 in a very real way.

Arguing that modern Americans have some sort of collective guilt for slavery (as the comic book does) is counterproductive, ahistorical nonsense.

[BlooInBloo]

6. I don't blame you for creating the historical inequity, but I might blame you for not helping...

to eliminate it.

O oversensitive one.

[Romulox]

7. Would you (potentially) use an ad hom argument to defend a logically flimsy premise?

:hi:

[noiretextatique]

11. what about the benefits of slavery that have positive effects for white people?

surely some of the benefits have accrued to modern white americans, just as the negatively consequences continue to impact african-americans.

[Romulox]

12. Such as?

I certainly wouldn't discount the idea out of hand, but concrete examples would help.

[NoSheep]

13. I would point to a lot of land in Virginia that has been passed down

through generations; generations of white people who kept their land by relying on the fruits of slave labor that helped them grow their wealth. Shirley plantation for example.

http://www.shirleyplantation.com/index.html

[Romulox]

16. Well, *I* don't own any land in Virginia.

Nor do most Americans, regardless of skin color. So that's not really a good example, imo.

[NoSheep]

22. Really?

It's an excellent example. Hundreds of black men and women and children and their descendent's comprising 11 generations did NOT prosper from the fruits of their labor but 11 generations of ONE white family DID prosper as a result of labor of these hundreds. That's what I would call a "benefit" (odd choice of words) of slavery that is to the white man and his descendent's advantage to this very day.

[Romulox]

24. Right. But people are individuals, and my name isn't on the deed.

You describe an injustice as to one group of individuals, and unjust enrichment on the part of another. I'm with you there. But I'm not in either group of these people. Saying that does not negate the first sentence.

The point of saying this isn't even to absolve myself from responsibility for the plight of marginalized people in general and African Americans in particular. I just don't think this responsibility derives from "guilt", but rather the basic social contract--that is, that Americans must care for one another. Besides the basic logic issues (I own no land in Virginia,) I think the latter framing is productive, and the former is not.

[NoSheep]

34. I understand your point, but my take on the cartoon may be where we differ.

White people continue to this day to benefit from slavery.
Black people to this day continue to have hardships because of our country's history of slavery.
Many white people may say they are not racist but are unwilling to recognize the inequities that continue to exist because of it that benefit them and do not benefit blacks. The very fact that you are white gives you a benefit whether you'd like to acknowledge it or not. This doesn't mean you are criminal or are personally guilty of wrongdoing. But what I do think it means is that you are part of a group of people who should recognize this inequity and work toward justice for the marginalized group. That may be with a vote against the neocons who want to defund ACORN...or maybe learning something about that to share with others who are misinformed. That may mean supporting organizations that seek equality among all people, tax breaks for the disenfranchised. That kind of thing. I think that's what you are saying, no?

But so many are unwilling to even acknowledge the inequity and there is so much each of us could do to right that wrong....whether we feel we are personally responsible or not. We DO personally benefit from being white.
Maybe we do agree....I just think that saying you weren't a slave owner or land owner whose wealth was made possible by slavery is a very reasoned or productive response.

Finally...and this is slightly off key as far as what I think the cartoon is saying and granted, a simple little example that most of us here understand, but I had a boss once who refused to hire blacks. He also loved to talk about how they didn't want to work (this is what some of the tea-baggers say when they get upset about a health care public option) Many applied and many were qualified for the jobs he posted, yet he wouldn't hire them. He wouldn't give them a "hand up" if you want to put it that way. Yet he condemned them and said it was their own fault for not working. This is some form of pathology that I will never understand.

[Romulox]

42. I agree with virtually all of this post.

"Maybe we do agree....I just think that saying you weren't a slave owner or land owner whose wealth was made possible by slavery is a very reasoned or productive response."

I think we agree way more than we disagree. I am not, will not, would not deny the reality of racism. It exists on a personal level, but it does the most damage on the institutional level--everything from our k-12 education system to our for-profit prison system.

My point is simply that class matters, too. My family also has a history in this country, and it's not the one depicted in the cartoon.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

14. Independence from Britain.

The White House.

The Capitol.

The entire Southern economy on which much of the current economy is built. Insurance giant Aetna for example.

Pretty much everything that's good in American music.

The 14th and 15th amendments.

[Romulox]

17. I was asking for a SERIOUS answer. nt

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

33. You got one.

[Romulox]

41. Yeah. Just not from you. nt

[Empowerer]

19. Not one American alive fought in the Revolution or did a thing to secure the colony's independence

from Britain. Yet we love to celebrate the Fourth of July and constantly wrap ourselves in the good deeds of the Founding Fathers as if we are somehow imbued with some unique, praiseworthy specialness, solely by virtue of being citizens of the country they created.

But let ANYONE even SUGGEST that we must also own the negative aspects of our history and, God forbid, lift a finger to remedy the damage wrought thereby, and we're immediately deafened by cries of "THAT'S REVERSE RACISM!!! *I* didn't own any SLAVES so why should I be PUNISHED for what THOSE PEOPLE did WAY BACK WHEN?!?!?"

And, sadly, they don't even see - or refuse to acknowledge - the moral and historical inconsistency.

[Cha]

37. Yeah, especially the republicons don't like to own

that negative history of America..they of the "ownership society".

[Number23]

53. Fan-TASTIC. As usual.

Fabulous post.

[CTLawGuy]

15. +1

A more accurate analogy would be an unrelated white person being told they had to lift the black person up because of what the white person sitting on the ledge did.

[Romulox]

18. One better: a smug rich, white guy telling the white guys left below

that they must stay down there to "offset" his privilege.

[Gator_Matt]

20. Romulox, I'm with you on this one - this cartoon is nonsense

(1) It seems to imply that lowering standards for African Americans corrects for slavery. (2) It also implies that white people are all living a life of privilege due to slavery.

In regards to (1), this only serves to put unqualified people into the system while screwing over hard-working non-minorities who deserve it. This is particularly terrifying when you realize that medical schools do this too.

In regards to (2), I, like 99% of white Americans, was not born into a position of privilege due to slavery. In fact, my family wasn't even in this country during slavery. This cartoon implies all whites are living on easy street thanks to slavery and should feel guilt over something they had nothing to do with. This is outrageous. Slavery was a disgrace, but shouldn't be used 150 years after-the-fact by political opportunists to push a social agenda.

[Romulox]

23. I think that the PTB are TERRIFIED of class-based considerations.

I am NOT against Affirmative, including race based considerations. However, I think class should be the centerpiece of AA efforts.

The elegance of this solution is that it necessarily embraces all people who are marginalized in our society without drawing artificial distinctions. The powers that be (including many who make race the focal point of their social critique) tend to fight this idea tooth and nail. I tend to attribute it to divide and conquer tactics.

[dolphindance]

27. I still think you have some kind of chip on your shoulder when it comes to black people.

You must have been wronged some way in the past. Perhaps a missed job opportunity that you feel undeservedly went to a black person?

I dunno. You seem to be very eager in many threads to diminish evidence of racism.

[Romulox]

28. Huh? I just said I support Affirmative Action, including race based considerations.

"You must have been wronged some way in the past. Perhaps a missed job opportunity that you felt went to a black person?"

So...you don't want class based affirmative action to be a topic of conversation? Because the effort to "see into my heart" is nonsense that would make me mad if it didn't just fall flat. :shrug:

[noiretextatique]

35. this person acknowledges that racism still exists

however, he doesn't acknowledge that modern white people continue to benefit from slavery and jim crow. i don't understand how any reasonably educated person can come to such a conclusion, but many white americans feel the same way. to me, it's really quite simple. my grandparents couldn't get certain jobs that were reserved for white people...the same was true with my parents. my generation is the first in our family to have full access to american society. i do acknowledge class as an issue for all americans, including white americans, but the reality is: white people benefitted from limiting the ability of black people to participate in society. the benefits were economic, social, political...you name it.
i can't fault any one person for the reality, but i know some white people benefitted from the theft of my great grandparents land. i doubt i could get that land back today, and i know for damn sure my
great grandparents or my grandparents, or my parents could get it back either. some white family my still be benefitting from that theft, or they may have benefitted by selling the land.

[Romulox]

40. I don't think that's a fair representation of my position in the least.

I said that class based considerations should be primary in Affirmative Action, with race being a secondary consideration.

I didn't say any of the things you attribute to me in this post. :hi:

[noiretextatique]

43. these are YOUR words

"The correct argument is that the effects of slavery have negative consequences for African Americans that extend into 2009 in a very real way."

Yet you are dumbfounded by my question:
what about the benefits of slavery that have positive effects for white people?

then you wrote:

Arguing that modern Americans have some sort of collective guilt for slavery (as the comic book does) is counterproductive, ahistorical nonsense"

Like many people, you conflate "guilt" (and idiotic and insulting word in this context) with responsibility. Do you know why slaves or their descentdants were never paid reparations? White people didn't want to pay...that includes white slaveoweners and their descendants. The issue really boils down to a refusal to take responsibility. And what did slaves and their descendants get instead of reparations? 100 years of brutal apartheid because black people were excluded from participation in society and had ZERO political capital. We could only start to have the conversation about reparations recently, as black people gained political, economic and socal captial.
Personally, I think it's pointless to argue for reparations, because of the reason i mention above, but I use reparations as an example of america's failure to take responsibility for slavery and jim crow. Fuck "guilt"...who the hell needs that. But I think america got away with a huge crime because the majority defined it as "something that happened in the past that *I* am not personally responsible for. I will remember to use that the next time someone discriminates against me.

[Romulox]

44. Umm, the vast majority of those are *your* words, not mine. I posted the opposite upthread.

This is what I posted in post #24 to this very thread:

"The point of saying this isn't even to absolve myself from responsibility for the plight of marginalized people in general and African Americans in particular. I just don't think this responsibility derives from "guilt", but rather the basic social contract--that is, that Americans must care for one another. Besides the basic logic issues (I own no land in Virginia,) I think the latter framing is productive, and the former is not."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8673018&mesg_id=8675825

[noiretextatique]

48. those were your words, not mine eom

[Romulox]

50. According to MS Word, 35 out 251 of those were my words. nt

[Romulox]

52. PS: Why in the world would you ignore the quote from upthread where I say the OPPOSITE

of what you imply?

:wtf:

[Romulox]

46. Wow. It's easy to "look into somebodies heart", but hard to read what they've actually posted,.

:hi:

[noiretextatique]

49. you wrote those words in this post, #4 iun this thread

here it is again:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8673018&mesg_id=8673458

i copied and pasted exactly what you wrote. perhaps you should look into your heart before you write :shrug:

[Romulox]

51. Right, but all the parts where you ascribe negative motives were your words, not mine.

:hi:

[kwassa]

30. White people live a life of privilege automatically

There is nothing in the cartoon that implies lowering standards for African-Americans, by the way. This seems to be your personal projection on the subject.

You, as a white person, do have privilege that minorities, particularly African-Americans, don't share. These privileges have not necessarily to do with wealth as they have to do with equality of opportunity. These privileges exist today, not just in our slave past, so it really doesn't matter when your family got here, you get those privileges now.

You might read this classic on the subject:

http://www.amptoons.com/blog/files/mcintosh.html

White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack
Peggy McIntosh

excerpt:

1. I can if I wish arrange to be in the company of people of my race most of the time.

2. I can avoid spending time with people whom I was trained to mistrust and who have learned to mistrust my kind or me.

3. If I should need to move, I can be pretty sure of renting or purchasing housing in an area which I can afford and in which I would want to live.

4. I can be pretty sure that my neighbors in such a location will be neutral or pleasant to me.

5. I can go shopping alone most of the time, pretty well assured that I will not be followed or harassed.

6. I can turn on the television or open to the front page of the paper and see people of my race widely represented.

7. When I am told about our national heritage or about "civilization," I am shown that people of my color made it what it is.

8. I can be sure that my children will be given curricular materials that testify to the existence of their race.

9. If I want to, I can be pretty sure of finding a publisher for this piece on white privilege.

10. I can be pretty sure of having my voice heard in a group in which I am the only member of my race.

11. I can be casual about whether or not to listen to another person's voice in a group in which s/he is the only member of his/her race.

12. I can go into a music shop and count on finding the music of my race represented, into a supermarket and find the staple foods which fit with my cultural traditions, into a hairdresser's shop and find someone who can cut my hair.

13. Whether I use checks, credit cards or cash, I can count on my skin color not to work against the appearance of financial reliability.

14. I can arrange to protect my children most of the time from people who might not like them.

15. I do not have to educate my children to be aware of systemic racism for their own daily physical protection.

16. I can be pretty sure that my children's teachers and employers will tolerate them if they fit school and workplace norms; my chief worries about them do not concern others' attitudes toward their race.

17. I can talk with my mouth full and not have people put this down to my color.

18. I can swear, or dress in second hand clothes, or not answer letters, without having people attribute these choices to the bad morals, the poverty or the illiteracy of my race.

19. I can speak in public to a powerful male group without putting my race on trial.

20. I can do well in a challenging situation without being called a credit to my race.

21. I am never asked to speak for all the people of my racial group.

22. I can remain oblivious of the language and customs of persons of color who constitute the world's majority without feeling in my culture any penalty for such oblivion.

23. I can criticize our government and talk about how much I fear its policies and behavior without being seen as a cultural outsider.

24. I can be pretty sure that if I ask to talk to the "person in charge", I will be facing a person of my race.

25. If a traffic cop pulls me over or if the IRS audits my tax return, I can be sure I haven't been singled out because of my race.

26. I can easily buy posters, post-cards, picture books, greeting cards, dolls, toys and children's magazines featuring people of my race.

27. I can go home from most meetings of organizations I belong to feeling somewhat tied in, rather than isolated, out-of-place, outnumbered, unheard, held at a distance or feared.

28. I can be pretty sure that an argument with a colleague of another race is more likely to jeopardize her/his chances for advancement than to jeopardize mine.

29. I can be pretty sure that if I argue for the promotion of a person of another race, or a program centering on race, this is not likely to cost me heavily within my present setting, even if my colleagues disagree with me.

30. If I declare there is a racial issue at hand, or there isn't a racial issue at hand, my race will lend me more credibility for either position than a person of color will have.

31. I can choose to ignore developments in minority writing and minority activist programs, or disparage them, or learn from them, but in any case, I can find ways to be more or less protected from negative consequences of any of these choices.

32. My culture gives me little fear about ignoring the perspectives and powers of people of other races.

33. I am not made acutely aware that my shape, bearing or body odor will be taken as a reflection on my race.

34. I can worry about racism without being seen as self-interested or self-seeking.

35. I can take a job with an affirmative action employer without having my co-workers on the job suspect that I got it because of my race.

36. If my day, week or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether it had racial overtones.

37. I can be pretty sure of finding people who would be willing to talk with me and advise me about my next steps, professionally.

38. I can think over many options, social, political, imaginative or professional, without asking whether a person of my race would be accepted or allowed to do what I want to do.

39. I can be late to a meeting without having the lateness reflect on my race.

40. I can choose public accommodation without fearing that people of my race cannot get in or will be mistreated in the places I have chosen.

41. I can be sure that if I need legal or medical help, my race will not work against me.

42. I can arrange my activities so that I will never have to experience feelings of rejection owing to my race.

43. If I have low credibility as a leader I can be sure that my race is not the problem.

44. I can easily find academic courses and institutions which give attention only to people of my race.

45. I can expect figurative language and imagery in all of the arts to testify to experiences of my race.

46. I can chose blemish cover or bandages in "flesh" color and have them more or less match my skin.

47. I can travel alone or with my spouse without expecting embarrassment or hostility in those who deal with us.

48. I have no difficulty finding neighborhoods where people approve of our household.

49. My children are given texts and classes which implicitly support our kind of family unit and do not turn them against my choice of domestic partnership.

50. I will feel welcomed and "normal" in the usual walks of public life, institutional and social.

[CalvinandHobbes]

31. What does this mean?

I can avoid spending time with people whom I was trained to mistrust and who have learned to mistrust my kind or me.

[kwassa]

32. It means that white people can arrange to be just with white people.

[Gator_Matt]

39. I empathize, but this isn't African American specific

This is true for any minority. A society tends to serve the majority. I'm white, but this list would apply to me if I entered a region where I were the minority. My point is that it's not so much "white privilege" as it is "majority privilege." I went to a minority-majority school as a child, and let me assure you that it was not a pleasant experience. I've never encountered such animosity before or since, and this is coming from someone who is a liberal.

[dolphindance]

25. White privilege is real, and you don't have to be rich to benefit from it.

Every day you are given the benefit of the doubt, get better treatment, and are seen as more trustworthy.

Cry me a river.

[Romulox]

29. I agree with that. I think this debate cuts a bit finer than that. nt

[dolphindance]

36. OK.

[BlooInBloo]

5. Indeed. Correcting historical inequity is the most evil thing imaginable.

:rofl:

[hokies]

8. LOL!

:rofl:

[hokies]

9. Hilarious cartoon

Thanks for posting. I hope people won't be offended by it. :hi:

As a black man, I don't hold white people today guilty for crimes they obviously didn't commit. But I think that the claims of people crying reverse racism at the drop of a hat are wrong.

[Skittles]

10. claiming "reverse" anything is wrong

it's racism / discrimination, period - no matter who it's done by

welcome to DU :hi:

[Gator_Matt]

21. Correct, a person of any race can be a racist

This simple fact seems to elude many Americans, since it has been framed as white-vs-black for so long. Racism is unfortunately ubiquitous to all races.

[dolphindance]

26. Yeah, but it's mostly white people who can actually affect people's lives with their racism. (n/t)

[Gator_Matt]

38. Yes and no

In an absolute sense, sure, since there are far more white people in the US. On a per capita basis, I don't think you could make that claim though.

[kwassa]

45. Why not?

[Romulox]

47. Before you spill a lot of bits responding to this poster, I'd encourage you to look at his posts

to other threads, and specifically the Detroit thread.

Not. Worth. It.