"Thanks for getting Obama elected. Now sit down and shut up!"

[DutchLiberal]

That's what DU says to people who have dared to criticize president Obama. "How dare people complain about him? They only worked hard to make sure Obama got into the White House. Now why don't they just sit down and shut up and blindly praise Obama?" Never mind the fact that Obama himself has said he wants people to hold his feet to the fire, so he'll make the right decisions. DU must have missed that part.

Let's take Bill Maher, who got trashed by DU the other day:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8672889&mesg_id=8672889

Bill Maher has recently criticized president Obama for not doing bringing enough change to policies and politics. And as the thread above demonstrates, he got pounded by DU for saying something as horrible as that! Now, Bill Maher gets painted as somehow being in league with the Fox News hosts; as someone who propels right-wing talking points against Obama; as someone who smears the president with lies; and as a "hater".

And this brings me back to the title of this thread. Because, as I remember it, Bill Maher was behind Obama 200% during the elections. I can remember how he was cheered and congratulated every week on DU after having destroyed McCain and Palin, and after having defended Obama against right-wing lies.

Like the time the right-wing went crazy over Obama not wearing a flap lapel-pin. Maher got Obama's back:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQVYmhpvhkg

When the GOP tried to make people believe Obama was going after people's God and guns, Maher defended Obama:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtbarqbKNNI

When Obama was elected, Maher foresaw the right-wing media attacks and debunked them:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojl_BZrTGCU

And when Obama was inaugurated as president, and a group of extremists, cheered on by Republicans in Congress formed the 'birther movement', Maher slammed them silly:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1WmbY-B6uU

Those are just a few examples. Every time Maher said about the GOP and the media what no other host on tv wanted to say, and DU loved it. But then, he started to do something strange. He started living up to his own words. Because, when Bush was still in power, Maher said, of the people who blindly followed him: "we should adhere to principles, not to people." Needless to say, DU welcomed this thought then. But when Maher began to apply that to himself and president Obama, DU stopped being so enthusiastic. Bill Maher dared to criticize the president, and DU pushed him under the bus.

"Thanks for using your show as a platform to support and defend Obama, Bill. Now sit the fuck down and shut the fuck up!"

[Buzz Clik]

1. Maher's thing is to stir the pot. He considers himself a libertarian of sorts which means...

... he never has to help out. His job is to criticize only. At least he's good at his job.

[DutchLiberal]

3. He doesn't promote libertarian values or policies on his show, but progressive ones...

[earth mom]

47. Bullshit. It's NOT stirring the pot to want Obama to get the people Universal Health Care!

Or to expect Obama to be different and better than * which he is not at this point!

What a fucking disappointment-Maher is right!!!


I swear, Up is Down on DU these days and it's fucking disgusting! :puke:

[Buzz Clik]

60. Obama cannot get us universal health care.

If that's Maher's point and you agree, then both of you need to take Civics again.

[earth mom]

129. * did whatever he fucking wanted to do. What's stopping Obama, hmm?

Answer: the will to do so.

Face it, Obama does NOT give a shit about the other 95% of us!!!

[Deja Q]

149. That's what entertainers are paid to do: Stir pots. It's not a monopoly for republicans...

:shrug:

[rpannier]

2. Welcome to the result of the 24 hour news cycle

Everything is about this very second

It's irrelevant to many people what your track record is, it's what you are doing/saying at this moment that is what counts

Support an issue or individual 94% of the time, the 6% you don't makes you a fifth columnist

And what's so bizarre is the most virulent attacks seem to come from people who laugh at the 'lock step' Republikkans and how they can't think for themselves or tolerate any form of dissent

[ChairmanAgnostic]

4. but some dissent is appropriate.

For 6-8 weeks, this president did nothing on healthcare. That left the stage open to the scare tactics and brain-washing by the K-Street lobbyists. Had he even tried to outline a major plan he would like, 50-70% of that crap would have never gotten off the ground. Were it not for the progressives pushing, writing, e-mailing, and screaming, I wonder just when the White House was going to make any move.

Remember Obama's demand that he have a completed bill on his desk by August? It's what, October now? That, too, is his fault. No pressure, no push, no demands? No results.

[Tansy_Gold]

6. Obama presented "his" health care plan on September 10, 2009

Hard to get it passed by August, non?



Tansy Gold, who looked it up in the heat of last night's "discussion"

[ChairmanAgnostic]

10. precisely my point.

A lot of misinformation could have been avoided had the White house said something in June, even early July.

[rpannier]

13. I agree dissent is appropriate

As I said we live in a "this moment" world

[Tansy_Gold]

5. I'll get in a rec before the bots get here.

G'morning!

The worst of this trend -- and I've seen it, too, which is why I rarely venture out of teh "safe" threads like Stock Market Watch and Week-End Economists -- is that the responses generally devolve into personal attacks. "You're so stupid I don't know how you can operate your computer!" as one wrote to me last night.

I don't have a problem with the profanity; the goddess knows I use enough of it myself. But the chatty cathy back and forth -- "That poster is always doing that shit" "I know it, but I'm here to be your friend" -- suggests that we do have a band of junior thugs who will gang up on anyone who dares challenge their idol.

The last time I engaged in that kind of nonsense was when Mary Fowler took one look at the Fabian poster taped inside my locker and sneered, "He's cute, but he can't sing worth beans."





TG

[Aramchek]

81. how can you call the majority 'bots'?

because in order for a thread's recs to remain in the negative,
the majority of us have to vote that way, correct?

[Tansy_Gold]

83. Because i don't give a rat's ass about recs and unrecs.

I occasionally rec a thread or unrec one, but other than I pay just about diddly point squat attention to the number of recs a particular thread gets.

I'm far more interested in what gets posted.


It's pretty damn hard to hold a discussion with recs.




TG

[DutchLiberal]

89. Thanks, that's exactly how I feel about it.

So many people on DU are so childish, with their obsession over rec's and unrec's. They're more absorbed with that, than they are with an actual discussion. It reminds me of Fox-viewers who boast that "their" network is better because it has higher ratings...

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

137. Then why make a post about it? (nt)

[Tansy_Gold]

139. 'Cause I f***** felt like it.

I realize that many of the people who post on DU are inexperienced and naive and some are just plain ignorant. I also realize that many have the attention span of a gnat on crack and couldn't read to the end of a five-paragraph post if their lives depended on it.

I'm one of those old codgers who enjoys reading and enjoys writing almost as much, even though it takes a little longer.

So sometimes I post things for the sheer joy of the writing.

Yes, I rec things and I unrec things, but I don't OBSESS about how many recs a thread has or doesn't have. It's kinda like tossing a penny in the fountain in front of the Chinese restaurant: I do it for the fun of it, not because I really expect it to MEAN anything.

And sometimes the reference to a rec or unrec is the lead-in to a wider discussion, which is what this example was.

Truth is, if DU didn't have the rec and unrec feature, I wouldn't miss it for a second.

On the other hand, I would miss the fountain at the Chinese restaurant.




TG

[Mimosa]

7. I worked hard to get Obama elected

I haven't noticed a whole lot of mindless bossterism. I have to admit I am very disappointed by what hasn't been accomplished about health care.

[Tansy_Gold]

11. The first link in the OP is to a DU discussion last night

that included personal attacks -- some posts were removed but some were left in place -- against anyone who dared to suggest Obama was anything less than perfect or had performed in anything less than miraculous style. NO CRITICISM was allowed. None. Even those -- like me -- who EXPLICITY STATED they were pleased about some of the things he has accomplished were not allowed to express any disappointment.

It's sad, and yes, it's not at all unlike some of the goings on over at that "other" site, but that doesn't mean we can't point it out and try to do something about it. That's what progressives generally do! :hi:



TG

[stray cat]

8. Many expect DU to have more sanity then free republic when they talk about issues

and most of the time they just look like flip sides of a coin - displaying rage but not much substance or rationality

[Why Syzygy]

9. Spot on.

These past few months have been a real eye opener into the average Liberal. I have been astonished to find there is no lack of denial and close mindedness in our own park. Sad.

[izquierdista]

12. The only liberal who has an excuse

Should be Ted Kennedy. I liked it when he would thunder outrage at the conservatives and uphold liberal values. Who does that today?

[ChairmanAgnostic]

14. Dick Durbin, with a different style. Al Franken, ditto.

Barney Frank. Bernie Sanders, absolutely.

[quiet.american]

15. It seems this OP should actually be called: "In Defense of Bill Maher."

(Whether he's talking about Obama or not, I tend to not care for Maher. A few years ago, at the invitation of a friend, I went to one of his HBO tapings. He displayed quite a streak of misogyny during his performance. Turned me off.)

[Tansy_Gold]

17. No, not at all. Maher is merely the example given.

And I'm daring to speak for someone else, which I really shouldn't do.

Regardless what one thinks of Maher, the point at least from my perspective was that there is a portion of DUers who simply will not tolerate criticism of Obama FROM ANYONE. Not even mild criticism. It's almost as though one could say "I thought his tie was crooked during the second half of the speech," and you'd have half a dozen DUers screaming "WHY DO YOU HATE OBAMA? YOU'RE A FUCKING PUMA!!!!!"


Btw, I agree that Maher can be viciously misogynistic and so can Jon Stewart, and so can Keith Olbermann. And I'm quite sure they would deny it, but that's the nature of misogyny.




Tansy Gold

[quiet.american]

25. Yet Maher is the example given in every instance for this argument :)

The "issue" seems to be merely the vehicle for an inspired defense of Maher -- not that there's anything wrong with that. :)

As far as some DU'ers taking umbrage with criticism of Obama, I think the OP is whistling in the wind if they think this might change anything. The pendulum swings both ways on DU -- there are times when one can't say anything POSITIVE above Obama on DU without getting slammed with epithets.

C'est le DU!

[DutchLiberal]

34. Maher is just another example in a longer list of people being 'blacklisted'...

for criticizing Obama.

First it was Dennis Kucinich, for saying the White House didn't push the public option hard enough. He was labeled a "defeatist" --in the best case. The same people who applauded Kucinich for his principles a half year ago, were now ganging up on him.

Next was Rachel Maddow. Praised for attacking right-wing talking points about Obama, now slammed as "too pessimistic" and, again, "defeatist" because she thought the Obama administration was giving in too much to the 'Blue Dogs'.

And now it's Bill Maher. He fought Republican smears against Obama the hardest and was cheered on the loudest on DU during the election campaign. But once he criticized Obama for a lack of action, those same people threw him under the bus.

This is a trend. An ugly one, and, as one poster above stated, it's the mirror image of "that other site".

[quiet.american]

42. Having been around DU for some time, this is not anything new.

You've probably been here a while, too. I'm not sure what the big surprise is -- it is "DemocraticUnderground" after all.

And I wouldn't name FreeRepublic as a "mirror site." For one thing, there is no range of opinion (or even intelligent opinion) allowed there. At DU, one can start as many threads as one likes taking exception to the fact that on DemocraticUnderground there will be some who take issue with criticism of a Democratic president.

These things go in waves. They're out, then they're in. Then they're out again. Then they're in. There's no "ugly trend" cementing itself in place. Kucinich will be in again at some point, and so will they all.

As for Maher, I haven't listened to him lately, but a few months ago, I'd read his "lack of action" remarks -- they struck me as Maher being Maher - saying something purely to get a reaction. It's not surprising he did get one from DU, maybe not the one he was looking for, but I wouldn't think that would even matter to him. He got a reaction.

[Dawgs]

16. Bill Maher is an idiot.

**

[DutchLiberal]

21. Thanks for proving my point.

:hi:

[Dawgs]

23. FAIL. Maher was an idiot when Bush was Prez, and he's an idiot now.

His criticism of Obama has nothing to do with why he's an idiot.

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cha]

75. And, you come on here and throw personal attacks at our

members.

[DutchLiberal]

91. Hello pot. Let me introduce you to kettle...

I have yet to see ONE post of you that answers the point of an OP/another poster.

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[QC]

59. It was mildly amusing the first few thousand times someone did it,

but now it's just tired.

[donheld]

136. Has FAIL gone STALE?

[QC]

138. A long time ago....

[Tarheel_Dem]

65. +1. (nt)

[Jennicut]

30. I have never been fond of Maher since before I knew who Obama was

He always seemed to be just saying things for shock value. I love Jon Stewart, Michael Moore, and K.O. and they have been critical of Obama.
Maher comes off as a pompous, sexist egomaniac at times.

"New rule: stop acting surprised someone choked Tila Tequila! The surprise is that someone hasn't choked this bitch sooner."

I make my case.

[Knight Hawk]

115. Biil Maher and The Bill Maher Show

I have watched the show for years.You have to separate Bill Maher from the show.The show is great ,he usually has a very interesting and diverse panel and interesting guests.He can come off a little wierd at times.

[Jennicut]

122. Um, no. He is the show. And he disgusts me at times.

Politically incorrect? Try sexist pig.

[DutchLiberal]

124. If you can't stand comedy, don't watch it.

Or watch 'Leave it to Beaver' or 'Father knows best' instead.

[Jennicut]

132. Either we take him seriously or we do not.

The OP started out upset that Maher was being criticized politically...and now you say don't take him seriously, it's only a comedy? Can't have it both ways. Is Maher an important voice or not? Jon Stewart manages his comedy just fine with out being an ahole.

[DutchLiberal]

142. I did not say "it's only comedy".

I said: if you don't like his comedy, don't watch it. If you are very easily offended, then Maher's comedy is not for you.

What has that got to do with the fact that there are a lot of hypocrites on DU who slam Maher for criticizing the president?

[kid a]

18. yet another hyperbolic "don't tell me to shut up" thread.

Bullshit.

Stupid, uninformed, dishonest anti-Obama shit gets called out.

I can look back at the last 8 months and see many things that I wish Obama would have done the way I would have done them. And I don't mind reading logical, reasoned discussion of those issues.

I also look back at the last 8 months and see progress on some issues, and an attempt by Obama to shift the policy back toward social, economic, and constitutional balance.

Please don't shut up! But, now that you've gotten your token "call out the bots and cheerleaders" post under your belt, spend some time reading a wide range of opinions, not just the "Obama Sucks" ones

[man4allcats]

26. You "don't mind reading logical, reasoned discussion of those issues."

And yet when someone presents a link-documented point of view with which you disagree, you call it "Bullshit. Stupid, uninformed, dishonest anti-Obama shit". I'd say you mind.

[WonderGrunion]

27. If the links cited

are all "Bullshit, stupid, uninformed, dishonest anti-Obama shit" then the OP can still be the same.

Beck cites sources sometimes too. It doesn't make him any less wrong.

[DutchLiberal]

37. But the links cited are "reasoned, thoughtful pro-Obama defenses"...

So why I get compared to Glenn Beck is beyond me...

[WonderGrunion]

40. No the links are example of Maher's projection on Obama

That's the problem with a virtual unknown being elected to the presidency. Much like Kennedy, Obama is a canvas that everyone paints their own ideals on without actually listening to his views. Then they gripe about how this "Isn't change I can believe in".

You selectively use progressive sources to show why progressives are wrong about Obama. Maher's shtick is that he's an antagonist to whoever is in power. He was an antagonist to Clinton, to Bush, and now to Obama. He will be an antagonist to whoever is President next.

[DutchLiberal]

49. Yes, that's what comedians do --and should do! However...

There's a difference: Maher couldn't be and didn't want to be the same kind of antagonist to Clinton and Obama as he was to Bush, for the simple fact that Bush was a *disaster*. I'm sorry, but Maher gave more airtime to some of Bush's scandals than most so-called 'journalists'. He should get some credit for it, even if he's 'just' a comedian. And since it's very unlikely that Obama will be anywhere near as bad as Bush, Maher's role will be different. But that doesn't mean any criticism is off.

[man4allcats]

41. That's true, but as the OP's first link clearly demonstrates,

DU undeniably has its own "our guy" high school cheerleading squad. I refer to the first link only because it links to DU and illustrates the point. The other YouTube links, while interesting, don't come with a DU audience and thus cannot be used here to support the cheerleading charge.

[DutchLiberal]

51. The YouTube-links are there to debunk the charges made by the cheerleaders. n/t

[Bluenorthwest]

29. Your adjectives make you seem dishonest

you seem to mind a great deal. You characterize that which you can not define, you editorialize upon that for which you lack factual standing, and you misrepresent yourself in the most self serving of ways. Being honest is the first step.

[CakeGrrl]

67. Yep. And they ALL end up the same way.

Sit back and watch the condescending "Now you've done it! The cheerleaders and Kool-Aid brigade are gonna come after you" posts, the "You can't tell me not to criticize Obama" posts, the back-and-forth about what constitutes criticism vs. bashing...

Lather, rinse, repeat, repeat, repeat.

[Skittles]

152. bullshit

anything less than cheering gets "called out" and unrecommended :thumbsdown:

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[donco6]

20. Heaven forbid we should be able to differentiate actions.

Some have been good, some not so good. It's too bad we cannot talk about both.

[slay]

22. Ut-oh. Be careful you don't upset the Obama cheerleading squad

you know, those same people who are pro-Obama no matter what he does. Those same people show up over and over in many threads defending EVERYTHING Obama does as sacred and holy. If you don't know who they are, you'll figure out pretty quickly. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if one or two reply to my comment here. Come on - take the bait cheerleading squad - you know you want to.

To not question Obama when I believe he is wrong about something would make me no better than the idiots who voted for and worshiped Bush - and we all know how that turned out. My criticism will not be silenced (nor will my applause if he accomplishes great things) and I'm glad yours won't be either DutchLiberal.

[Jennicut]

28. I am very supportive of Obama but okay with legitimate criticism

That is what we are supposed to do with relation to out government. I also hate the dividing of people into pro and anti Obama camps here. Calling someone a cheerleader really sets it up for there to be fights on this board. Sometimes I think people over react to criticism and to praise of Obama.

[slay]

32. You make a good point Jennicut

I think people do overreact to some of the Obama praise and criticism here - myself included at times. However the Obama cheerleading squad is real.. i guess I should probably not call them that though in an attempt at peaceful discussion - although there is often no discussing anything with them as they mock and ridicule you, but you are correct, I should not sink to their level. Thanks for the thoughtful reply Jennicut.

[Jennicut]

35. Thanks. Hey, most of us are all liberals here and on the same side.

[Arkana]

116. Yeah because there are NO people that look for any little excuse to criticize him.

None at all. Nope.

[WonderGrunion]

24. There's a difference between constructive criticism

and the plethora of "OBAMA BETRAYED US !!!!11!!1111" screeds that are posted here. I have no problem with discussions of ways that Obama could change his approach to issues or threads asking to call the White House to bring awareness to issues that haven't been addressed yet. What pisses me off is almost all criticism of President Obama falls into "Obama threw us under a bus", "He's no different than Bush" or "Obama is a Corporatist/Fascist/Globalist/Socialist/Muslim/Carebear". Anyone using one of these arguments will get an automatic rebuke from me because they are simply untrue accusations against a President that I support the majority of his positions.

Does it suck that it will take a few more months to close Guantanamo than expected or that he hasn't pushed for a repeal of DADT/DOMA yet or that he's not pushing for prosecution of BFEE criminal endeavors? Yes, it sucks. But I expect him to address all these issues. I expect that Guantanamo will be closed. I expect that DADT and DOMA will be repealed. I expect that this investigation into torture practices will lead to a bright light being shone upon the practices of the * administration. I will not declare him a failure without giving him the 4 years we elected him to serve to attempt to accomplish those things.

[Bluenorthwest]

31. He had time to rehire Blackwater

And to fire hundreds of volunteers in service for being gay. It should have been the other way around. It could have been the other way around. It is the hundreds of loyal Americans he fires to serve his discriminatory dogma that can declare things about him. You and I do not really hold equal standing to those brave individuals. Their lives are destroyed. Blackwater is making millions. Hallelujah indeed.

[Tansy_Gold]

33. And neither one of you called the other names.

There can be disagreement, and there can be discussion.

I think what the OP was referring to, however, was the lack of civility in some of the discourse. "You're so stupid I'm surprised you know how to type" kind of thing.

I've seen that repeatedly from the devotees, not so much from the critics. And I'm one who's been on record as a critic since the announcement last November that Geithner would be treasury secretary. I thought it was a terrible appointment and still do. I was raked over the coals then and I was raked over the coals again last night.

That's the kind of lack of civility that comes up more and more and more at DU.

It's not about Maher -- you can love him or hate him -- but it is about DU and how we treat each other here.



Tansy Gold, who is very happy she only knows one DUer in person

[DutchLiberal]

38. A lot of people who give constructive criticism get trashed anyway...

Like Bill Maher. He never said any of those things you cite, yet he's a "hater" now, according to DU. :shrug:

[WonderGrunion]

39. You're right. Obama is a Carebear

Betrayal Bear! :eyes:

[Phx_Dem]

43. Who's thanking you for getting Obama elected? We all had a big

role in getting him elected. And by "we all" I include nearly all Democrats, many independents and a good number of Republicans.
The whiners act like they elected him all by their little bitty selves.

[DutchLiberal]

52. Try imagining the " whiners not having voted for Obama.

Can you say 'president McCain'?

The point is that it's not for you or any cheerleader to decide whether or not we can criticize the president. And that the cheerleaders are hypocrites for trashing the people who supported Obama all the way --and still support him, even as they criticize him from time to time. But apparently, that's too much to take for certain people.

[Phx_Dem]

84. Not necessarily. The whiners are loud, but they're not that big.

Obama won a huge margin.

Don't break your arm trying to pat yourself on the back while you try to take credit for what many people, collectively, did.

[DutchLiberal]

92. In four years, you'll be courting the "whiners" again, begging them not to vote 3rd party...

And after getting what you want, you'll throw us under the bus again.

Never mind that we're criticizing Obama on *your* behalf, too, for *your* good, too. And never mind the fact that Obama himself said he wanted people to hold his feet to the fire. Just go along, pretend we're "the enemy". The world is much easier in such black-and-white divisions.

[Phx_Dem]

146. Then you can throw the election to the Republicans like you did

in 2000 by voting for Nader.

Any gay legislation that has passed during Obama's term will be repealed and you can spend your days whining about what you did to yourselves.

[DutchLiberal]

147. Bush didn't steal the 2000 elections???? Wow, must've missed that...

"Gay legislation"?? WTF?

[Skittles]

153. LOL........DutchLiberal

I thought EXACTLY what you did when I read that :rofl:

[treestar]

80. +1

And that they should be personally of the first priority! Like the whole country was going to revolve around them and that's why they "worked" for him (I don't believe they really did) - like everyone else who worked for him are irrelevant people.

[Phx_Dem]

86. They remind me of lobbyists who give a politician money then expect

him to "be their bitch." Fortunately, That's not how democracy works. You vote for the candidate who most espouses your views and whom you trust to make the right decision. You don't vote for someone and then expect them to be at your beck and call, as if you're the only person in the country.

:crazy:

[jenmito]

44. You called out my thread and accused me of telling Bill Maher to shut up. Why not show me where I

told him to shut up? I pointed out where he claimed nothing has changed while also, on that same thread, pointing out false things he said about Obama. You and Maher are two peas in a pod.

[DutchLiberal]

53. That's the biggest compliment you could make me. Thanks!

[jenmito]

54. I'm glad you're proud of lying to people-and YOU don't even get paid to do it like he does!

[DutchLiberal]

88. I'm proud I'm compared to people as intelligent as Bill Maher...

He has more intelligence in his left pink than you have in your entire body.

[jenmito]

99. You mean when he's high?

:rofl:

[DutchLiberal]

101. You're a small person, you know that?

[jenmito]

106. No, I'm not, but of course you ALSO think I worship Obama and Maher doesn't lie, so your opinion

doesn't really mean anything to me. :hi:

[eleny]

45. If I support and vote for a candidate I'm going to push them publicly & privately

Maher has that same right.

I fully expected to be pushing him to do what I'd like to see after he was inaugurated. If DUers don't like it, then it's tough darts. I think people get ticked or hurt when we exercise this American right towards Obama. I marched against the Vietnam War during LBJ's administration. So this is nothing new.

K&R

[bigwillq]

46. People just need to respect other people's opinions

especially on a supposed progress website. Not everyone's going to like a politician (even a Democratic president, or Senator or House Member) with the same passion and vigor as someone else. I think it's 100 percent ok to criticize elected officials (they do work for us after all).

Whether one thinks that the criticism reaches a level of "bashing" or not, we should still respect that person's opinion, and their right to say what they feel. Just because one is a Democrat or a Liberal, they may not like a fellow Democrat's policies or vision or decisions, and I think it's ok to feel that way. And I think it's ok to continue to state that opinion on this site. There are extremes on both sides of this spectrum (the always negative folks and the always ultra positive folks). I think both should be able to co-exist here without any form of censorship.

You may not like my opinion, and I may not like yours, both that's ok. We may even squabble over it. That's ok too. It may get nasty. That's ok too. Passion does that to all of us.

But I have also noticed a lot of the "sit down and shut up thing" from some people. A select few. And I can't stand it.

[damonm]

48. Um...no.

Respect their right to have 'em, absolutely.
But the opinions themselves? Not a chance. Stupid is stupid, and should be called out as such.

Are there things I want Obama to do better on? Oh, HELL yes. FAR too slow on DOMA and DADT, for one, and I'd like more action on investigating the Bushies to start getting prosecutions.

But generally, I think he's doing about as well as possible, given the ginormous crock of shit he was handed last January 20th. Time will tell on the other items.

[bigwillq]

62. But not all opinions you may disagree with

are stupid. You just may not agree with them, but not all of them are stupid 100 percent of the time, and not to all people. I certainly don't think the opinions of others that I disagree with are stupid. I just disagree with them. That's the bullshit that needs to stop as well. People attacking other people's opinions. You can call some out as stupid but not all, because if you think ALL are stupid, then you are very close-minded.

[damonm]

68. And at no point did I say so.

And NO ONE is under any obligation to respect someone elses's opinion. Ever.
In this society, we're obligated to respect the right of others to hold whatever opinion they do - regardless of whether or not we agree with it. And if you or I think a particular opinion is wrong or stupid, we have every right to call it so - just as we have every right to defend an opinion with which we agree.
Freepers, for instance, have a CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT to their stupidity, limited to when that stupidity threatens public safety as illustrated by court decisions.
Those who claim Obama = Bush have the same right to their wrongheadedness, just as I have the right to what may well be mine.

[Drunken Irishman]

50. People who spout off stupid shit should not be taken seriously.

Whether you helped get Obama elected or not. Some of the shit I've seen come from Bill Maher's mouth fits this statement. I like Maher, but he's not very smart and it shows.

Just because Maher can be an ally does not mean he gets off scout free for dumbshit said, eh?

[billh58]

61. Maher is

a comedian first, last, and always. His personal views are mostly masked behind comedy, and he seldom (if ever) shows his true political leanings. He is little different from any other late-night variety show host, with the exception of having lower ratings than most of them. If you want reasoned Liberal opinion, I suggest Keith Olberman and Rachel Maddow. If you want a few laughs, Maher and Stewart are a good choice.

Having said that, I would also just like to note that there appears to be an inordinate number of very angry people who regularly post on DU. The terms "cheerleader," "bot," "gun nut," "grabber," and other over-the-top divisive labels are regularly used as verbal grenades, and amount to irrational "Internet rage." I doubt seriously that most people who are so venomous on DU (and other sites) would have the courage to engage in that kind of verbal assault in person.

Biting wit and clever repartee are acceptable and at times refreshing, but to resort to juvenile name-calling is a gross misuse of the written word, and of most people's time. It's getting harder and harder to find a political thread on DU in which to engage in a calm, civil, conversation without getting flamed by a pedantic snob, or a hair-trigger malcontent.

There are, of course, all of you Liberal Democrats who are reading this, who would never engage in a personal attack on a fellow DU member because of their views (disruptive trolls excepted). For that bit of civility in the midst of this severely-divided country of ours I sincerely thank you...;-)

:dem:

[AspenRose]

64. *applause*

:applause:

[Tarheel_Dem]

70. Excellent post. I've decided to alert everytime I see the terms "bot", "cheerleader", or

other such derogatory terms used in reference to supporters of the president.

[DutchLiberal]

94. Oh, how nice to know we have our very own thought-police on DU!

[Tarheel_Dem]

130. I'm sorry you feel put upon at DU. You guys are very good at namecalling, and

then you plead for civil debate. What hypocrites. Do you even know what "thought police" refers to? I don't have to read a poster's thoughts when they come right out and call some of us "bots", "cheerleaders", etc. And these are the same posters who want people to rec their anti Obama screeds (like yours), so they can turn around and post them at FR. Too transparent.

What amazes me is the total lack of a sense of irony. We get scolded if we say something unflattering about a "progressive" pundit, or talk show host, and then there's the gratuitous "thrown under the bus" references. But if we defend a Democratic president, on a democratic website, we're "cheerleaders". So the message is, never say anything bad about a radio personality or comedian, but rip the Democratic POTUS to shreds at every turn?

[DutchLiberal]

143. But 'us guys' CAN be called "whiners", right? Or told to shut up and support the president, right?

Otherwise we get reported, unrecommended (could care less about that), or flamed. So I suggest you look in a mirror before you make any accusations again.

[DevonRex]

71. People who use the term "bot" and others like it are intentionally rude

and disruptive. I wouldn't wipe my feet on them, although I might have to scrape them off the bottom of my shoe from time to time. :)

[Cha]

77. Well, Aloha, to you too, bill~

B-)

[billh58]

78. Me ke

aloha pumehana my friend... :hi:

[DutchLiberal]

93. I'm sorry, but Maher brings up important topics that nobody else in the MSM dares to tackle...

Or, in the case of Olbermann and Maddow, probably, are not allowed to by their corporate masters (and I'm not slamming them, because I hold them in highest regard).

Things like the American military empire overseas (including 27 European countries!); greed as the root cause of all problems facing the US; pointing out the dangers of organized religion; and the fact that left and right in the political spectrum aren't what they used to be thirty years ago... are all issues which are never discussed by other hosts, because they are about the fundamentals of the US, and nobody but Maher dares to make them subject of discussion.

[billh58]

112. I agree, but

I also believe that is just his Libertarian take on things. Most people take Libertarianism with a grain of salt, especially the "imperialistic USA," and "both Parties suck" diatribes. Those are also the battle cries of the Far-Left, but gain little traction with Democratic Liberals.

I appreciate that you admire Maher enough to give him so much legitimacy, but I like his humor and wit much more than I do his attempts to be a serious social or political commentator. I appreciate his support for mainstream Liberal causes, and the campaigns of John Kerry and President Obama. I didn't care, however, for his support of Bob Dole, or Ralph Nader that much.

In summary, Bill Maher is good at what he does, but is not someone who has (or even realistically expects to have) much meaningful influence on American politics. He is certainly not in the same league as Mark Twain, nor does he purport to be. He is Bill Maher -- nothing more, nothing less.

[DutchLiberal]

114. Fair enough. Yet he doesn't promote actual libertarian values on his show anymore..

If you listen to his take on the economy, it's clear that he has stopped supporting libertarian politics a long time ago.

I wouldn't call it "far-left", but "liberal" instead, and yes, I believe he stands for mainstream liberal causes. But the political landscape has been so manipulated, that what used to be right-wing is nowadays considered moderate, hence what used to be liberal is now seen as 'radical' --when it isn't.

[billh58]

118. He may have

changed his political views, and I suspect that he is still learning about differences between the freedom of being a stand-up comedian, and the restraints on a TV host who needs to look more closely at sponsorship and demographics.

Plus, we all mellow with age -- hopefully...;-)

[DutchLiberal]

119. Thanks for your civilized manner of discussing issues...

It's much needed and I appreciate it. :)

[billh58]

121. I'm 68

years old, and have finally decided what I want to be when I grow up: less obnoxious. It makes retirement so much more pleasant... :toast:

[Political Tiger]

55. Somehow I think Bill Maher will find a way to carry on despite being "bashed" on DU!

[DutchLiberal]

95. Of course he will. I love it how he slams his own audience for being too politically correct...

He literally doesn't care when they make the "ooooeeeeh"-sounds. I think that's cool.

[SeattleGirl]

56. Oh here we go again

Of course it's fine to criticize Obama. But some folks -- I would venture to guess you are among them -- think that if others don't join in with your criticism and feel exactly the way you do, that those others are Obamabots.

Sheesh.

Not everybody here thinks the same, and not everybody sings the same song.

If that were true, this site would be called Republican Underground (or, Free Republic).

[DutchLiberal]

96. You shouldn't guess anymore.

[boppers]

57. "Help, Help, I'm being oppressed!" eom

[DevonRex]

63. OP: "Leave Bill M. aloooone! Waah! Waah!

:rofl:

Seems to me we can voice our disagreement with a fucking entertainer as much as we like.

[DutchLiberal]

97. Yes, you're right. You have every right to be a hypocritical ass if you want to...

I'm just pointing it out. And your childishness.

[DevonRex]

100. Bill, I think you've been spending too much time with Coultergeist.

[CakeGrrl]

66. Unrec for old, tired divisive cliches

And I suspect Mr. Maher will survive the vicious lion's den that is the DU "Sit down and shut up or we'll throw you under the bus!" crowd.

:rofl:

[Tarheel_Dem]

69. Let's be honest. Maher's an entertainer, who some people think is leftish.

With the election of a democratic president and congress, many progressive writers, comedians, and talk show hosts have seen their ratings dip; while at the same time, their right leaning counterparts have seen their ratings and readership explode.

I don't think I've watched Maher twice since the election. He's an opportunist, and I understand him wanting to be controversial..it gets ratings. He'd love to get into a pissing match with the White House, it could only raise his profile. Outside of DU, I don't know anyone personally, who's still watching. Fuck him!

[Cha]

76. Yeah, Fuck that Opportunist, bill maher, and

Fuck his Cheap shots, too.

[Name removed]

105. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

109. Deleted message

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[DutchLiberal]

110. Is "fuck" the only word you know?

[brentspeak]

103. How does that explain all the left writers and commentators who've been rightfully livid at Obama?

People who very much did support his candidacy -- like Thom Hartmann, Robert Scheer, Jane Hamsher, etc?

[Name removed]

128. Deleted message

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[brentspeak]

133. Your vapid, substance-less response proves that you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

[Name removed]

134. Deleted message

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[brentspeak]

135. I have a revulsion of politicians who are bought/paid for/cowed-by Big Corporate Money

The intersection of Wall St/K-Street and Washington over the past 30-35 years has pretty much cut the nation's blue-collar/middle classes off at the knees, and Obama is plainly keeping that tradition going. The way I see it, those who aren't livid about it are the ones who aren't thinking clearly -- not me.

[DutchLiberal]

145. Very well put!

Anybody who *isn't* upset with that, is living in an upside-down world.

[Name removed]

104. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tarheel_Dem]

131. I thought it was against DU rules to say fuck you to a fellow DU'er?

It's okay though, I hope they lock this piece of shit thread.

[DutchLiberal]

144. Then why do you come to post here, tough guy?

[scheming daemons]

72. FAIL n/t

[DevonRex]

73. I can't wait for DutchLiberal's YouTube version of this to come out!

:rofl:

[Uzybone]

74. All this fire for a comedian? Save your passion for something of consequence.

Maher doesn't care about any of this half as much as you think.

[DutchLiberal]

107. If you think this is "for a comedian" you didn't get the point.

It's about the attitude that's now prevalent on DU, in which everybody who is critical of any of Obama's policies or politics, is immediately trashed and thrown under the bus. Anybody who's not 100% in lockstep gets the "fuck you"-treatment.

[billh58]

117. That statement

does not ring true, as I have had many civil and meaningful debates about "criticism" of President Obama on DU, so your use of the terms "everybody," "any," "immediately," and "anybody," are out of line.

Admittedly, there are a few DU-ers who neither tolerate criticism, nor praise, of President Obama, and some of those resort to juvenile name-calling. But to use the broad brush of "bot," or "cheerleader" and terms like "anyone," and "everyone," is more than disingenuous -- it's dishonest discourse. There is no discernible "attitude that's now prevalent on DU," that did not originate with the same group of Primary Election antagonists who were at war with each other, and can't seem to let it go. The rest of us (the majority of the DU membership) have moved on.

When you start a thread with the intent of being confrontational, you have just posted flamebait, and contributed to the incivility that you rail against.

[DutchLiberal]

120. Nonsense. I made a thread to point out hypocrisy.

[billh58]

123. Unfortunately, your post

doesn't come off that way to an unbiased reader. Accusing the whole of "DU" of being hypocritical, or unbending, tends to ruffle the feathers of those who are not hypocritical or unbending, and just have differing views. That confrontational approach whether intended, or not, invites flames.

P.S. I just did a quick scan of the various current posts on DU, and found many more pieces which are critical of President Obama, than pieces which glorify, or praise him. Yes, the usual suspects on both sides were in evidence, but they were nowhere near to dominating the discussions.

[treestar]

79. Except that nobody ever said that.

They just said don't work against him. In a two party system, that's like helping Palin.

But if you prefer being a victim, carry on.

And if you worked for him just expecting him to get what you want specifically you are just delusional or very self centered. And it's hard to believe you did the work. Anyone can say that on DU, and anyone who worked for him wouldn't be criticizing him that hard.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

82. I criticize Obama a lot and I don't have a problem with others doing so as well.

The problem with Bill--and don't get me wrong, I love Bill--is that he often does not do his homework. To assert that Obama hasn't done anything to promote change is ludicrous. He may not have fulfilled all of his promises, but Jesus, he's only been in office for 9 months. Considering all that is on his plate, can we try to give the man a break?

[DutchLiberal]

102. Well, it was Obama who asked people to hold his feet to the fire...

Bill is doing it.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

111. AFTER ONLY 8 MONTHS?? And also having to deal with a bunch of obstructionist

Repukes and DLC Democrats?

[DutchLiberal]

113. You can't have it both ways.

A lot of people complain one can't criticize Obama because he has only been in office 8 months. Now people are complaining that the criticism comes *too late*???

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

125. HUH? Are you making any sense? Criticize Obama, but be reasonable! There's a long list of decisions

that I don't like, but I'm not irrational because I know what this president faces. He was left with a complete mess.

[DutchLiberal]

126. But WHO gets to define what 'reasonable' is?

To a lot of people on DU, NO criticism of Obama is reasonable!

[Boomerang Diddle]

85. Bill Maher's crying all the way to the bank.

[whistler162]

87. NTSA

[DutchLiberal]

108. What does that mean?

Honestly, I don't know.

[gulliver]

90. "Worked hard for Obama" is a fallacy

Probably most of the people who worked hard for Obama but now criticize him bitterly actually hurt him in the election. Bozos turn off supporters and energize the opposition. There is criticism and there is criticism of course. I trust Obama a lot more than dummies, whether they are Bush or some J. Random Whiner. Criticize Obama, but keep it respectful, IMO, and realize that he may know one or two things you don't.

[DutchLiberal]

98. After *that* post, you should be the LAST person to talk about respect...

[GreenPartyVoter]

127. That's always been the message to the far left. We're only good for votes, not ideas.

All we can do is be active and work the phone lines and keep our elected officials' feet to the fire, and work to share our ideas with others and hopefully win them over to our way of thinking.

[dionysus]

140. not really. people tend to get pissed at certain posters whose agenda is so transparent as to be a

joke.

[downeyr]

141. I noticed this a lot around DU...

...it seems like there are two different camps in this forum--one more dedicated to idealistic principles and the other more partial to practicality, being in lockstep with the party. I don't want to classify it any further than that, but that seems to be the two groups that reside on DU.

[Beacool]

148. No need to thank me, I didn't lift a finger.

:D

[Lord Helmet]

150. go puma!

[Forkboy]

154. No shit.

[Name removed]

151. Deleted message

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