Stunning anti-Obama letters to the editor from students at a Florida Christian school.

[madfloridian]

I read these letters today, and I just wanted to cry. I realize Central Florida is very much a fundamentalist area, but this was a painful reminder indeed.

These letters are from two 11th grade students at Landmark Christian School in Haines City, Florida.

President Barack Obama

From the first one:

Lately I've been hearing people talk bad about anyone who speaks out against Barack Obama. They are being called racist, ignorant, or not "open minded." I just want to say off the top that I am not racist, or ignorant, and I have a very open mind toward things, and, contrary to most beliefs, a majority of right-wing conservatives are not ignorant racists. On the other hand, I do see the fact that Barack Obama's policies are going against many of the rights that our nation was founded on. He wants to take money from people who worked hard all their life and give it to people who did not work as hard, or did not work at all for it. This spreading around of the wealth is not only not fair for the working people, it is also a characteristic of socialism (the first step into communism). I am not going to go on a rant, talking bad about our President, but I do want to say that I do not agree with his policies, I do not judge by name or color, I judge by words and actions. If you cannot see past the charisma, speech quality, and promises of wealth, and see the fact that he basically stands strong for socialism, then I am not the ignorant one, you are.

To that person, I say...are you one of the approximately 42,000 students going to private religious school on my taxpayer money?

Gee, I would hope not.

From the second letter:

"… We do not consider ourselves a Christian nation …" These words came out of the mouth of our own President, Barack Obama. Either he has forgotten our history or he has chosen to ignore it, because America was founded on Christian principles. The pilgrims came over to America from England to seek religious freedom. The Constitution and other foundational documents were written to protect our religious rights. "In God we trust" is written on all of our coins for a reason. Without God, America would not be such a prosperous nation. In Psalm 9:17, the Bible says, "The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God." America is quickly forgetting God, especially if its leader, who was elected by the people, claims we are not a Christian nation. We need to turn back to God before he turns his back on us.

I guess Florida Democrats have decided they are fighting a losing battle against the religious right here. I know of several Democrats who are supportive of these views now, especially in our neck of the woods.

The Gradebook Blog at TBO.com has more on this moving to the right by our state on this issue.

Blurring political lines in the voucher wars.

John Kirtley, arguably Florida's leading voucher supporter (probably a tie between him and Jeb Bush), is now a member of the board of directors of the Hillsborough Education Foundation, which raises money for public schools.

Kirtley's new gig further blurs the political lines in the voucher wars. Democratic lawmakers in Florida continue to migrate to the pro-voucher position. And just last month, Step Up for Students - the voucher group Kirtley chairs - announced a partnership with the Hillsborough teachers union to help train private school teachers.

I really very much like a comment from the comments section of that blog:

Splintering segments of the community in private religious schools, minority focused schools and magnet schools is not advancing our society.

Children are not learning a broad curriculum together, they are instead being isolated from one another and focusing on ego-centric curriculum that is self serving rather than focused on the common good.

It's a mistake to cater to a population that does not want to look beyond themselves to become part of something bigger and in all likelihood better than what they can create on their own.

Amen.

And I really do hope those two letter writers are not going to private religious school on my
taxpayer money.

More than two years ago, the state stopped giving tuition vouchers to students who wanted to leave failing public schools for private school. Since then, Florida's other two programs that pay private-school tuition for disabled kids or poor children have grown by 21 percent and 65 percent respectively. Today, 42,000 Florida students attend private school on the public's dime. And a new study touting voucher benefits could trigger more expansion.

Why is the number growing? As more people learn about the programs, more sign up. Low-income families are thrilled they can afford to find a school that meets their children's needs. Why are these 2 programs still allowed?

..."A 1999 lawsuit that challenged vouchers targeted only Opportunity Scholarships, offered to students at public schools that had received two F grades in a four-year period. The Florida Supreme Court ruled it was unconstitutional to do that.

But no one has fought the two other programs in court. The state's teachers union, one group that sued to kill Opportunity Scholarships, isn't planning to go after those two because of the cost and time involved. Critics argue the court ruling should apply to all three programs because they are so similar. But the Supreme Court justices noted it would be improper to make that assumption.

[bluestateguy]

1. "It's not patriotic to criticize the president"

I bet you that was what these kids learned for the last 8 years in their "Christian" schools.

[saracat]

2. My god, yes I said god, these people are beyond stupid.

[bluestateguy]

3. How do these Christian fundamentalists feel about vouchers going to Muslim schools?

I assume that is OK right?

[aggiesal]

58. And, I'm getting sick of ...

always hearing about spreading the wealth to those less fortunate.
2 things they don't understand.
1) It's not spreading the wealth to the less fortunate, it's spreading
the wealth to everyone, with most of it going to the middle class.
2) It appears that they didn't have a problem with the 8 years King George
was in charge when spreading the wealth meant taking it from the middle
class and distributing it to the richest 2%.

Is that how they want to distribute the wealth?

[donheld]

99. Not to mention a Wiccan school

[still_one]

4. This country was founded on separation of church and state

These letters reflect just how ignorant some of these students are

The only thing I would like to point out is that based on past elections Obama won by a comfortable margin. That alone tells me there is hope for the country

I suspect, contrary to what the media would like you to believe that 2010 will not be bad a bad year for Democrats

The pseudo-christians have over played their hand the last eight years

[madfloridian]

7. But their voices are still the loudest.

And still seem to make a difference.

Sounds like one of those kids is getting defensive. We need to make them feel that way more often.

[Homer Wells]

72. The saddest part is that

although they are a very loud vocal minority, they are backed up my the Main Stream Media, giving them much more influence than they deserve.

:grr: :mad:

[WinkyDink]

10. Not to mention that the Puritans most decidedly did NOT want "religious freedom" for all.

[formercia]

19. Accusing innocents of being Witches was the meme then.

Times have changed, but the mentality remains the same.

On the good side, the Puritans morphed into the Congregational Church, one of the most Liberal and inclusive churches.

[Brother Buzz]

33. The Congregational Church morphed into The United Church of Christ that included...

Barack Obama as a member.

The Congregational churches traced origins to two English dissenting Protestant groups: the Separatist Pilgrims, who established Plymouth Colony in 1620; and the Puritans of the Massachusetts Bay Colony, who landed in 1629 and 1630 and settled Boston.

The Separatists were the truly inclusive group. The Mayflower Compact gave equal footing to the Saints (believers) and Strangers (non-believers). The Strangers had equal voting rights and could own property. They also became targets for the witch hunts, just ask Captain John Alden Jr. There was not much love between the Puritans and the Strangers. Notable Strangers were John Alden and Miles Standish. Priscilla was the daughter of a Saint.

[AlbertCat]

36. Not to mention that the Puritans most decidedly did NOT want "religious freedom" for all.

Nor did they "found" America.... unless you still think America is a colony.... ruled by a King appointed by god. That, in the 1630's as well as the 1770's was the definition of a "Christian Country"... a country with a king appointed by a Christian god. I believe the American Revolution was anathema to such "Christian" governments. We are definitely a secular government. Get out of the cocoon of "religious school" and learn something useful!

[zeos3]

16. The ignorance is summed up here...

"... because America was founded on Christian principles. The pilgrims came over to America from England to seek religious freedom. The Constitution and other foundational documents were written to protect our religious rights. "In God we trust" is written on all of our coins for a reason. Without God, America would not be such a prosperous nation."


Almost every sentence here (from the second letter) is in direct conflict with the one next to it. WTF?!? What happened to reading comprehension? What happened to critical thinking? We talk about religious freedom but must impose that religion on everyone in the country? How's this for ironic? Were the pilgrims fleeing non-christians in England or were they not practicing the "correct" form of christianity? Was it being imposed on them in England?

[MadMaddie]

39. To bad the kids didn't learn that "In God we trust" was only

added to US currency

<snip>
The motto IN GOD WE TRUST was placed on United States coins largely because of the increased religious sentiment existing during the Civil War i 1865

IN GOD WE TRUST was first used on paper money in 1957, when it appeared on the one-dollar silver certificate.

<snip>

Guess history isn't important to the younguns in Florida.....

[Mad_Dem_X]

87. "founded on Christian principals" - no, no, NO!

I am SO sick of this meme I could scream! Most of the Founding Fathers were NOT Christian! Somebody needs to give these kids a lesson on the REAL history of our country!

[billh58]

25. They are not

only ignorant, they are arrogant, armed, and ignorant. The Red State right-wing Constitutional "absolutists" believe, to the point of antebellum fanaticism, that their views are the only ones which are valid. It is amusing to note that they take every opportunity to lecture the rest of us about not respecting their "valid" vision of a white, armed, Christian nation where bigotry, intolerance, and survival-of-the-fittest is championed by the likes of Beck, Hannity, and Limbaugh.

Unfortunately, Democratic "centrism" actually listens to the parents of these budding societal misfits, and cowers (out of habit?) when rednecks demand more religious interference in our government, more guns, and the dismantling of existing social safety nets. The final straw, however, is their apparent ability to deny all US citizens access to quality health care, while rapidly expanding access to guns.

The current 5-4 neoconservative out-of-balance SCOTUS is poised to continue the damage to our nation that Dubya and his band of criminals did not have time to complete.

[530jonathan]

96. actually it wasnt founded on separation of church and state

That concept was from a letter Thomas Jefferson wrote to a baptist church


This is a transcript of the letter as stored online at the Library of Congress, and reflects Jefferson's spelling and punctuation.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mr. President

To messers Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.

Gentlemen

The affectionate sentiments of esteem & approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful & zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, and in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more & more pleasing.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection and blessing of the common Father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves and your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.

(signed) Thomas Jefferson
Jan.1.1802.



http://www.usconstitution.net/jeffwall.html


never is the separation clause in the us constitution

[Cha]

5. This is to the first sentence in the first letter..

Lately, I've seen threats against the president from people who claim to be "Christian"..calling the president every hateful name they can think of..they call him "everything but a child of God."*

*That's what Obama used to say on the campaign trail after an especially vicious mcpalin rally.

And, if they could only have the facts at hand and not let the faux propaganda machine do their thinking for them.

[madfloridian]

6. The Ledger site appears to be very very very slow...

That is the gist of both letters, though.

Pretty pathetic.

[Loki]

8. In response to the first student's letter.....

do you even pretend to read your bible? Might want to try Matthew 25:31-46. Religious school, my ass.

[madfloridian]

9. Unrecs begin.

:shrug:

[BlooInBloo]

75. lol! You never learn.

[ovidsen]

11. Jesus wept.

The ignorance of history and their own Bible shown by these students is breathtaking.

And please, somebody... give them an encyclopedia. Or even a dictionary. If President Obama were pressing for a socialist state, he'd be moving to take over every private enterprise in the country, from car repair shops to huge conglomerates.

He is not.

K&R.

[evenso]

12. These students don't know the truth about the founders

They're getting this propaganda from the likes of David Barton. The founders, the authors of the Declaration of Independence, the Federalist and the Constitution recognized "providence" as being behind the founding of the republic. But that "providence" was not the diety of neo-Calvinism, and certainly not the Biblical god of the later "Great Awakening" two generations later. The founders differed in their views of God his role in the universe, but seemed to respect the deist view of a naturalistic god that moved through the history of Old Testament Isreal, but certainly did not favor a denomination, nor Calvin nor John Wesley or the Roman church. Theirs was a more universalist diety. A diety that gave humankind natural rights but could not be found in any particular denomination or denominations. The god of the right wing is a neo-Calvinist god, a god that moves through certain denominations, favored by the Family Research Council or the Moral Majority. This is the god of Farwell, Robertson, Reed, Keyes and their ilk. America was not founded on the belief in this particular god. NO, America was founded on a diety that looked favorably upon reason, the Enlightenment, the sciences (including evolutionary science). This is the diety that bestows natural rights on the Lockean or Jeffersonian world. The right wing Christians of today worship a different god.

[katkat]

14. Diests

Can anyone provide the name of one (or more) Founding Father who was actually a Christian?

[immoderate]

22. How about George Mason?

Just showing off. None of the main characters we talk about, Washington, Franklin, Adams, Jefferson, Madison, Monroe was a Christian. They were Deists, except Adams, a Unitarian.

There were Christians in the group, but they were bit players.

--imm

[DeadElephant_ORG]

13. America was founded on FREEDOM of worship - NOT on Christianity. nt

[olegramps]

15. Brain washed little turds.

This is a prime example of the failure of religious schools. These little jerks offs end up with shit for brains. When these bastards get sick and find out that their Republican religious masters don't give a fuck if the live of die maybe, just maybe they will see the light, but I doubt it. Their brains have been turned into a cesspool of ignorance.

[madfloridian]

17. The comments in regard to the letters are very interesting.

There are some very astute ones there.

So far this is my favorite:

"im thinking this was a class assignment.

the pilgrims were kicked out of england for being fanatics, much like the school is churning out.

america was founded on business. jamestown and the mayflower were business enterprises. religion, while indeed present, always took a second seat to money, much as it does now.


conservative-disposed to preserve existing conditions, institutions, to limit change, i.e. stagnant.

progressive-Moving forward; advancing; Promoting or favoring progress toward better conditions or new policies, ideas, or methods "

[Grassy Knoll]

18. Uh....not 11th grade students......

Rather, It's adult Repukkk's with an 11th grade education !
Who are they trying to fool ?

[butterfly77]

20. These stupid brainwashed sucker are really ,,,

naive. I wonder who in the fuck they think spread the wealth during Bush's term and he spread it to the already wealthy...SOmething is seriously wrong with these people if they now see something wrong when they didn't for the past eight years. This is why I stopped going to church during the bush years and they infilitrate the churches and want to tell you who God is..

[The_Commonist]

21. Which of Obama's policies...

"...wants to take money from people who worked hard all their life and give it to people who did not work as hard, or did not work at all for it."???

[mitchum]

23. May those little motherfuckers soon be with their precious lord

[Gman2]

24. Forgive them, their radically ignorant parents know not WTF.

[Gman2]

31. Those kids will do the opposite of their freak parents, bout 15 or so.

[d_r]

26. bless his heart

He says it "The pilgrims came over to America from England to seek religious freedom." But he just can't seem to put it together. Religious freedom, kid, religious freedom. They came here for religious freedom. Freedom from the government telling you what religion to follow. Religious freedom. He came right out and typed it in his letter, but his brain just couldn't close the deal.

[madfloridian]

27. lol very well said.

Thank you, his brain couldn't "close the deal"

:D

[Anakin Skywalker]

28. No Biasness in These Letters! No Biasness At All!

NOT! "two 11th grade students at Landmark Christian School in Haines City, Florida" Just about every sentence those two morons wrote were parrotings of phrases their teachers and parents scared into them!

[lupinella]

29. Hail thee well, fellow Floridian

As an I4 corridor Floridian, I want to thank you for your diligence in keeping an eye on our local crazies. I do not have the fortitude to dip my toe into the cesspool of the ignorant and evil. Hell, I get infuriated with the 'Safe for little ears' bumper stickers in re. a religious radio station and of course the 'choose life' license plates.
I found years ago that the only way for me to keep my sanity was to read about this state through a filter. Much like I can find out what they are saying on freeper sites by checking my blogs, I am able to get my local info from you, the emotionally stronger person, who remains capable of disseminating the information without reaching the place where you are screaming like a mad person at the swan boats of Lake Eola: 'Why do all the insane/delusional/paranoid people retire here? Where is there empathy in a city where feeding the homeless is banned? How do so many people who are reliant on tourist trade for a living content to have bumper stickers that say, "Welcome to America, now speak English" or, my favourite, "Why is it called tourist season if we can't shoot 'em?"'
*seethe seethe*
Anyway, just a note of appreciation for the insight I need.
Know thy enemy... but at a distance.
Sincerely.

:toast:

[madfloridian]

32. That is an amazing post.

I have seen those bumper stickers, you know.

"Welcome to America, now speak English" or, my favourite, "Why is it called tourist season if we can't shoot 'em?"'

It really does take a tough hide to live in Central Florida...

The things I heard and saw during the Bush years are nothing compared to the rotten rhetoric of hate I hear now.

We really do have to "keep our distance" from so many here. And that is a fact. There is very little common ground. I was on a mailing list I loved with my high school class. I had to get off it when Bush came into power. I never knew it was like that here...until he brought out the worst in the worst of them.

I wonder how I grew up without being like them. Maybe I was like them and did not know it. Too many questions without answers.

[lupinella]

43. People are always surprised I was born here.

I take that as a compliment.
There are a few things I do love about the state: as an actor it is one of the three largest Equity (the theatre actor's union) employers per capita, which allows me to do what I love. It has an interesting arts' scene - if you squint. Plus, I love that I get to meet people from all around the world.

Everything else is so very odd. I think people often assume the Bible belt ends at the panhandle, but it has such a stronghold here.
At one of my four jobs I work with a gay man who left the log cabin Republicans because they were too liberal. Second job I am surrounded by comedians, three of whom are in their thirties and 'saving themselves for marriage' (I know it is a personal choice, but not the norm in that field.) Third job - we found out less than a year ago that our technician, a man who spent his breaks highlighting his Bibles and 'witnessing' to people over the phone, was a convicted paedophile. And my fourth, ah yes... I was working there during the fallout from 9/11 into the Iraq horror. I had a screaming match with a man about the difference between the Shia and Sunni and his answer was to, 'Nuke them all and let god sort 'em out.'
And these are people in a 'liberal' (for Orlando) environment.

I agree with you about the escalation of extremist rhetoric. I spent eight years in the foetal position rocking in a corner. However, it now seems that the crazed masses went from a frenzy of nationalism into showing their true racist colours. (Although the world's largest Confederate flag certainly was a clue.) I am so pale that I border on translucent, but am tri-racial. I cannot count the number of times someone has told me a racist joke only to try to back-pedal, flailing as if on a unicycle, when they are told that not only do I not share their charming antebellum prejudices, but am in fact one of the people they are mocking.

As for belief in science, well apparently that is completely optional. I have stopped trying to explain the difference between the words theory and hypothesis.
When the Orlando Sentinel endorsed Obama, I was stunned, but still not so much as to take a subscription to them since they are on my boycott list ever since their sales department marketed a vitriolic anti-Islamic dvd (it was a free gift!) in their paper.

And reasons such as those are why I rely on your insight. Being a native, I just can't stare into the void any longer. I was raised by these people. They are my family, and when I was young, they were my friends. I, like you, marvel at the amazing divide between the basic ethics and morals between 'us' and 'them'. I put it down to the difference between an incurious mind and cruel nature versus a questioning one with an empathetic bent.
Thank you for your patience with my rant.
Sincerely,
:applause: to you.

[RoccoR5955]

30. Hopefully those kids, with their right wing views will be there

in 20 or so years, when Florida is under water, from global climate change.

[donco6]

34. And yet, many DUers support vouchers for private schools.

Great.

[madfloridian]

35. Yes, they do.

But usually only when I am against them. :shrug:

[donco6]

37. It's not just you, believe me.

I've argued with many - though I've seen you right in there, too. What the hell is wrong with people?

[AlbertCat]

38. What the hell is wrong with people?

It's all the rhetoric from both sides on how awful public school is. They didn't like public school for one reason or another I suppose.

And of course there's not enough sports equipment at public school! Only nerds like school y'know!

[joeglow3]

54. I support them...

largely based on personal experience. I went to 9 years of public school and 4 years of private school. I was a C student (at best) with TONS of discipline issues (at MULTIPLE public schools). I went to a private school, got solid discipline, was challenged more than ever before and ended up graduting with straight A's (at a college prep school). My father worked 20-40 hours of side jobs to pay for this (and I had to kick in about 15% of the cost from my earnings). Why should someone who makes slightly less my family did (and we did not have much) be denied the same opportunity?

[madfloridian]

60. As long as my taxpayer money is not paying for private schools...

I don't care where people go.

But it is, and that makes it my problem.

[joeglow3]

67. What part of that upsets you?

My wife and I send out son to a Catholic grade school. The cost to educate him is $3,900 a year. The local public school spends over $14,000 per student (AFTER adjusting for costs of educating children with special needs). Thus, the Catholic schools here save the public school system over $100,000,000 a year.

That said, I would support only allowing vouchers for non-religious schools.

[donco6]

64. So, because you were a fuck up at public school -

I should pay for your private school tuition? That would be a Hell No.

[joeglow3]

68. VERY Democratic of you.

Calling people fuck ups and opposing a path that may make them productive members of society. After all, if they cannot survive in the nice little box we have, "fuck 'em," huh? With Democrats like you, who needs Republicans?

[madfloridian]

69. Why do you want us to pay for your private school?

That's what I don't understand.

[joeglow3]

70. It is simple math

Like I said, our public school spend over $14,000 to educate EACH kid for one year. My wife and I pay $1,900 a year for our son and the other $2,000 in cost comes from the parish. Thus, under a worse case scenario, the schools would issue a voucher for 100% of the cost ($3,900) leaving them with OVER $10,000 extra to spend on the additional kids. Is your argument REALLY that spending $3,900 of taxpayer money to have a private school educate a kid is a waste, but spending $14,000 is not? That math kind of confuses me.


Honestly, the ONLY intelligent reason I can figure out why someone would oppose this is separation of church and state. Under that scenario, I agree that we should seek out non-religious private schools.

You can also bring up testing, but there would be ways to mandate that as well.

[madfloridian]

74. Where did you get the $14,000 figure for one kid?

That's new stuff to me.

[joeglow3]

78. Here is the link

http://tinyurl.com/yaewjtn

Click on the Executive Summary of the current budget and open the pdf.

Page 2 shows projected enrollment of 48,503 for 2009.

Page 8 shows a total 2009 budget of about $658,721,968.

This works out to about $13,581 per student. Now, the discussions lately (apparently not reflected here) is that they believe they will need a bit more money this year.

Any way you cut it, it is a HELL of a lot more than $4,000 a student.

[madfloridian]

83. What site does the tiny url link go to.

I have gotten in trouble clicking those links before.

[joeglow3]

86. Omaha Public Schools website - ops.org

[madfloridian]

93. Florida cost per student from 2008 ...$8,868

"The oft-cited, in-the-$7,000-range figure (this year, it’s $6,871) is from Florida Department of Education calculations, based on state and local dollars.

DOE officials say it’s fair to roll federal money into a per-pupil spending figure – that money does go to operational costs - but not capital outlay and debt service.

"Counting federal money, Florida spent $8,868 on operational costs per pupil in 2007-08 (according to the figures on page 4 of this DOE document.)"

http://blogs.tampabay.com/schools/2009/07/how-much-do-we-really-spend-per-student-in-florida.html

Of course if a child leaves public school to go to charter school, all or part of the money follows him, and may or may not come back if he is dismissed from the charter school.

And money is taken from public schools to be given as vouchers to private schools.

[donco6]

79. LOL! Yeah! Send ALL kids to Catholic school!

Think of all the money we'd save!

We just need to find a whole shitload of nuns who work for free. . . hmm . . .

[joeglow3]

80. Ummmm, are you hard of reading????

I agreed we could/should look at non-religious private schools.

[donco6]

81. Are you hard of thinking?

You were comparing costs of Catholic schools to public schools. How about comparing costs of private schools where they actually PAY their staff?

[joeglow3]

82. Once again, your math is fuzzy.

The cost per pupil is three and half times that of the private school. Additionally, fixed costs (buildings, etc.) should be relatively equal, meaning the variable costs (salaries) would be an even greater multiple. Thus, could you please back up your claim that public school teachers make 4-5 times what Catholic school teachers do?

[donco6]

84. Well, no, you're math is fucked.

You need to actually read Omaha's budget, not just skim the first page.

Page 18 shows a comparison of total expenditures per pupil from prior years. The current year is $9,037 per pupil. You haven't provided a budget for your Catholic school, just the amount you pay. To compare the costs of running the school, you need a budget.

Oh wait! Private schools don't have to show you their budget! So I guess we can just go fuck ourselves.

[joeglow3]

85. As a member of the parish, I have seen it.

Additionally, I know how much we pay for a year. We pay $1,900 and the parish picks up the other $2,000 in costs. However, I just looked at it is not online. We received it in our bulletin a month or so ago, so I know I have tossed it by now. So, you can choose to not believe me.

Guess that ends an attempt at an honest discussion.

[donco6]

88. Yeah, pretty much.

Maybe if I join your parish I could get the info.

On second thought, nah.

[jinto86]

92. A friend of mine has seen it work

Who I have mentioned before is educated at private school in a far superior way for 17,000 less a year (give or take, not sure what individual aides make in the Dallas/Ft. Worth area but can't imagine it is much less the 25,000 a year). Pretty sad when you think about it. Yet, as someone who has looked at that school for a job, they make a decent wage though maybe not quite as much. Sounds good to me. 7 to 1 instead of 1 to 1 makes for more money.

[wolfgangmo]

89. So if I can paraphrase your position

It is that we should allow for public funding of private schools using a voucher or "scholarship" system that would allow the poor to pick poor schools and the rich to supplement what they are already paying to send Chas Jr. to Andover?

I'm sorry but one of the strengths of public education is that it is a commons, an area where the many are given the opportunity to experience the other. Private schools will lead to the continued ghettoization of america.

This is not democracy. This is plutocracy. If you have your way then America will truly become a 2 class system with the Haves using public funding to maximize their advantage and the Have not's licking up the crumbs.

Beyond which, I am not aware of many (and I am tempted to say none) private schools that pay their staff any living wage money. Most private school teachers, unless subsidized by a spouse, are only using the job as a spring board to get into a real school. If private schools become the norm, then we will have to start fighting McDonalds for employees for many of the schools.

I'm sorry that you had a crappy time in Florida's public schools but that is less an argument for private schools than it is an argument against the short sighted and stupid policies that the repubs have pushed since the Reagan years and which have hit Florida's public schools pretty hard. Don't blame the schools, blame the pulbic officials who ignored their oaths of office and dismantled public education deliberately.

America's education system used to be the envy of the planet, now we are a joke in many ways. Sniff - Nancy R is so proud. "Just say no (to funding schools)"

[jinto86]

91. So if I can paraphrase your position #2

You would rather us do away with school choice altogether. After all what good is elimating vouchers for the rich if the rich don't need the vouchers to begin with.

As I have talked about on a different post I regularly talk with a middle class mom who desperately needs private school for her son. She had enough of seeing her boy getting bullied and not taught in the public education system (teachers don't know or don't care about how to educate special needs kids) so she got him into a nearby private school for special needs kids (www.hillschool.org I believe is its website). He is thrieving so much more then ever before now, but at 13,000 a year (considerably less then it took to educate him in the public system as he had an invidual aide with him 24/7 then, that must cost what 25,000 a year beyond his normal education costs). Sadly, she has limited means (middle class but 13,000 a year is a lot for a middle class person) so who knows if she can do this for 4 more years or will have to send him back to the public education system to get the same treatment as before.

I also wonder, with the public option sure to lower costs by getting rid of overhead costs, and with every school major school district having administrators who make 6-7 figures... why doesn't competition help the education system too.

P.S. A) I was educated during the Clinton years, the education system sucked then way more then it does now for kids like me and B) yes my friend is from Texas but I am from Iowa... great education system up here in case you hadn't heard... experienced the same basic problems.

[donco6]

94. Uh, it's only less because the private school isn't providing -

isn't providing him with the special education services he was required to receive in the public school. That's the only way he'd have been assigned a 1:1 paraprofessional. So that's hardly an appropriate comparison. We just looked at the example above for Omaha and their costs per pupil were just over $9,000 year. And that's WITH special education services.

[jinto86]

97. Oh that one is easy

He doesn't need the one on one assistance anymore with a teacher who understands him and wants to help him. In the public schools he has basically two options if he wants to pass. be in some remedial classroom that would be way inappropriate for him, or get a 1 on 1 aide that will help get him up to that C+ level that is deemed desireable. The public school system could start a school like this, but should my friend be punished for the lack of a public school? If he is doing better isn't that what matters? Shouldn't the school district help him if he is being helped.

[donco6]

98. So there's no public school teachers who care about students.

Nice. Only in private schools can you find teachers who care about their kids. Interesting.

[jinto86]

101. Nope

But only in private schools like the one he is going to do they require all teachers to have their special education endoresments and to have taken more then 1 class in how to teach special needs kids. Most teachers are unknowing, quite a few are uncaring.

[smoochpooch]

40. Response: if you believe in a talking snake, a 4,000 year old earth, and a guy coming back to life

(or what we would normally call a zombie), you have lost all credibility. Your judgment and lack of intelligence is fundamentally impaired, and anything that comes out of your mouth is not based in reality.

[SoCalDem]

41. Not surprising at all. Millions of people did NOT vote for him

and they have finally been emboldened to speak their vile words. Until the tea-baggers & the town brawlers, they were a bit timid, but no longer.

Their "front-men" laid down the markers for them, and told them it ws okay to go all-out now.

They could not prevent him from being elected, and were undoubtedly discouraged & depressed as we all celebrated, but now they have their "game" back, and their new goal is to undermine him at every possible turn, and to hope that someone out there in the REAL AMERICA™ hears the dog-whistle and takes one for the team :(

[gauguin57]

42. If this is how these people really feel, then this certainly is NOT a Christian nation.

Because these people are as far from the example of Christ as you can get.

I don't want to hear them talking about NOT caring for the least of our brothers, and then thumping their bibles and claiming to be "Christian."

They make me want to puke. And so do the parents who raised them.

[Zoeisright]

56. +1000

I grew up around people like that. They are some of the meanest creatures to crawl on the face of the earth. I've learned that if someone mentions their religion all the time, duck, because they're going to hit you sooner or later.

[olegramps]

44. Just a few examples of the thinking of the Founding Fathers

"The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries."
-1803 letter objecting use of gov. land for churches James Madison.
"Ecclesiastical establishments tend to great ignorance and corruption, all of which facilitate the execution of mischievous projects." James Madison
"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole cartloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity- John Adams

"This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it." John Adams

". . . Thirteen governments thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind." John Adams

"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose."
- to Baron von Humboldt, 1813 Thomas Jefferson

"The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend all to the happiness of man. But compare with these the demoralizing dogmas of Calvin.
1. That there are three Gods.
2. That good works, or the love of our neighbor, is nothing.
3. That faith is every thing, and the more incomprehensible the proposition, the more merit the faith.
4. That reason in religion is of unlawful use.
5. That God, from the beginning, elected certain individuals to be saved, and certain others to be damned; and that no crimes of the former can damn them; no virtues of the latter save."
- to Benjamin Waterhouse, Jun. 26, 1822 Thomas Jefferson
"I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature." Thomas Jefferson
"We discover in the gospels a groundwork of vulgar ignorance, of things impossible, of superstition, fanaticism and fabrication ." Thomas Jefferson

"Christianity neither is, nor ever was, a part of the Common Law."
-letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, 1814 Thomas Jefferson

"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches." Benjamin Franklin
"In the affairs of the world, men are saved, not by faith, but by the lack of it." Benjamin Franklin

"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." Benjamin Franklin

"It is much to be lamented that a man of Franklin's general good character and great influence should have been an unbeliever in Christianity, and also have done as much as he did to make others unbelievers" (Priestley's Autobiography)

"Of all the tyrannies that affect mankind, tyranny in religion is the worst." Thomas Paine

THOMAS PAINE was a pamphleteer whose manifestos encouraged the faltering spirits of the country and aided materially in winning the war of Independence:
I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of...Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."
From:
The Age of Reason by Thomas Paine, pp. 8,9 (Republished 1984, Prometheus Books, Buffalo, NY)

GEORGE WASHINGTON, the first president of the United States, never declared himself a Christian according to contemporary reports or in any of his voluminous correspondence. Washington championed the cause of freedom from religious intolerance and compulsion. When John Murray (a universalist who denied the existence of hell) was invited to become an army chaplain, the other chaplains petitioned Washington for his dismissal. Instead, Washington gave him the appointment. On his deathbed, Washington uttered no words of a religious nature and did not call for a clergyman to be in attendance.
From:
George Washington and Religion by Paul F. Boller Jr., pp. 16, 87, 88, 108, 113, 121, 127 (1963, Southern Methodist University Press, Dallas, TX)

BENJAMIN FRANKLIN, delegate to the Continental Congress and the Constitutional Convention, said:
As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion...has received various corrupting changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his Divinity; tho' it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the Truth with less trouble." He died a month later, and historians consider him, like so many great Americans of his time, to be a Deist, not a Christian.
From:
Benjamin Franklin, A Biography in his Own Words, edited by Thomas Fleming, p. 404, (1972, Newsweek, New York, NY) quoting letter by BF to Exra Stiles March 9, 1970.

The Treaty of Tripoli, passed in 1797 reads in part: "The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion."

[appleannie1]

66. I could add many to the above, but you said it well.

[Blue_Tires]

45. i'm not going to get lectured about 'wealth distribution'

and 'taking the money of hard-working people' from an 11th grader who's never worked and honest day in his life...

[Beacool]

46. Why would you want to cry over these two letters?

I don't agree with their sentiment either, but at least these kids are involved and interested in politics. The letters were well written and polite, no foulmouth ranting.

Why does it upset you so much that they expressed their position by sending letters to the local newspaper? Freedom of speech is not only for those whose opinion we agree with.

;-)

[madfloridian]

48. I don't know how to answer that.

I really don't.

[donco6]

100. Hey -

"So what if little Gunther is involved in Hitler youth. At least he's involved in the political process."

Are there NO degrees of worth when it comes to involvement in something? Is our response always, "Well, at least he's not killing something."

Sheesh.

[B2G]

62. I don't see what the problem is either

You disagree with their point of view. They were polite and well spoken (although IMO misguided).

Stunning? You want to cry?

That stuns me.

[Beacool]

63. Some people are very dogmatic, they see everything in black & white.

Me, I'm more live and let live. I think that everybody has a right to express their own beliefs, even if I may not agree with them.

;-)

[madfloridian]

77. She's talking about my being dogmatic for pointing out indoctrination

in private religious schools that get public money.

Interesting.

[jinto86]

102. When does it stop being indoctrination?

If this was a progressive 16 year old would it be indoctrination. Heck if it was a progressive 9 year old would it be indoctrination? Kids sing worship songs to Obama ("Jesus loves all the Little Children" was used for one of those songs) and its alright, but a 16 year old is conservative and its indoctrination. Something about that seems wrong to me.

[zulchzulu]

47. Jesus would spit on these asshats and denounce them as hypocrites

They are as "Christian" as a rat eating a squirrel's balls.

[louis-t]

49. The second one is very disturbing.

This person is speaking from the position that they believe Christianity is the ONLY religion. They meld God and Christianity as if they are one. They claim the Constitution is only there to protect religious rights. This is a sickness.

[Blue_Tires]

52. i can't come down on them too hard

they have a very small worldview from their cloistered suburb...I remember some of the half-assed views on life I had at 17 and no one could tell me otherwise until i experienced it for myself...

[intheflow]

50. I love how the second letter quotes the Torah in defending their argument

that the US was founded as a Christian nation. :eyes:

[lovelyrita]

51. I live in Haines City, not to far from the Landmark Christian

school. There might be some hope for the area, Haines City had more volunteers for the Obama campaign than any of the surrounding areas. So there are those of us in the area that are not crazy fundies. :)

[madfloridian]

53. Thanks for posting that. Glad to hear that news.

Keep up the good work.

:hi:

[Zoeisright]

55. Ah, a bunch of little mindless Rushbots.

I see they aren't teaching critical reasoning or logic in those schools.

[newtothegame]

57. Your post is a little scary. You're suggesting these kids shouldn't think for themselves?

And please don't give me this "They're not thinking for themselves, they're brainwashed!!!" Be a little more creative than that. They're morans :), yes, but I know plenty of conservatives that are thinking freely for themselves, even if they're wrong.

ed for sp

[Hansel]

59. The rich laugh all of the way to the bank over this statement:

"He wants to take money from people who worked hard all their life and give it to people who did not work as hard, or did not work at all for it."

Anyone who is naive enough to believe that the amount of money you have is correlated directly to how hard you work has never spent any time around the upper levels of management during the day or with the people who clean their offices at night.

So many of the people on the right are brainwashed into believing that the poor and people who find themselves on hard times are there because they don't work or didn't work hard enough. This spoon fed propaganda is what keeps these fools working their butts off for crap pay and minimum benefits while their managers stand around with their hands in their pockets jingling keys and reaping the benefits.

The person who wrote this was also whining about being called racist, which to me it just like saying I'm a racist. In other words, I'm not a racist just because I say that brown people don't work hard and therefore don't deserve the rewards that my white brethren have worked so hard to get.

Apparently this person has never heard of slavery or slave wages. They don't know anything about inheritance or social privilege. They really believe that working hard is all that it takes. Fools.

[Odin2005]

61. Proof that teaching religion to kids is child abuse.

[appleannie1]

65. Apparently that so-called Christian school is not well versed in the history of our country.

The author of letter #2 was right that this country was founded on religious freedom. That means any religion. "In God We Trust" never appeared on our coins in the beginning. E Pluribus Unim did however. That means "From many, ONE" Meaning from many cultures, many countries, many religions and all are considered equal. So therefore, Obama was correct. In God We Trust first appeared on the two cent coin during the Civil War. When that coin was obsolete, it no longer appeared on any currency. It never appeared again until the McCarthy era, a blight on our country. It was then put on our dollar bills out of fear of McCarthy or over being black balled as a Communist. Then the Falwells, Swaggarts, and Bakers were able to cash in on the fear and real Christian values went out the window with the dish water in favor of extremism. Hence we have reached the point we are today. And any real Christian can tell you, it goes against everything Christ actually taught. And it has no place, per our founders, in our government.

[ThisThreadIsSatire]

71. Is it just me, or does the word "indoctrination" jump out at you? nt

[conscious evolution]

73. yes

[madfloridian]

76. I hesitated to use the word, but yes.

And in Florida taxpayer money goes to some in those private religious schools.

Jeb campaigned for vouchers on the theme that we were not giving the poor a good education. It was a lie, but his propaganda worked.

Then they made it sound like since we in the public arena were neglecting them, we should let them use our money to go where they wanted. It was all a lie, but it worked.

[and-justice-for-all]

90. "… We do not consider ourselves a Christian nation …" correct,

and who else has said something to the same effect? John Adams, 2nd President of the United States "The Government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian religion."

[mwb970]

95. Kids parrot what they've heard their parents say.

99% of 11th graders have no clue whatsoever about the world they live in, or America, so they just repeat what they've heard from people they believe in. In this case, their hateful, clueless parents.