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[Name removed]

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[killbotfactory]

1. He's been the focus of attacks for months now

Only because he's a frontrunner.

If any other candidate were in his position, they'd be getting the same treatment. And if anyone else wins, they'll get the same treatment, only during the general election.

[blm]

14. Noone else has Dean's record of lies, inconsistencies and policy changes

and backtracking and 'clarifications' like Dean does.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

17. Reply

[killbotfactory]

31. How's the weather in bizzaroworld?

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

36. Foily.

I think...

[Octafish]

48. Wrong. Dean Loves Entergy's payola.

Does Howard Dean Have An "Enron" Problem?

"Let’s see some money on the table to keep the promises you made (to) those veterans instead of sending the money to Ken Lay and the boys at Enron with $3 trillion worth of tax cuts." — Howard Dean, appearing on MSNBC-TV's Hardball with Chris Matthews, Dec. 1.

Did then-Gov. Howard Dean's administration approve a $180 million sweetheart deal to the boys at Entergy, at the same time utility executives were pumping campaign contributions into his then-fledgling campaign for president?

And did that deal wrongfully stick Vermont taxpayers with high electricity rates for ten years?

They are questions Dean may find himself having to answer on the campaign trail, as he repeatedly invokes the Enron scandals in an effort to link the Bush Administration to "Ken Lay and the boys at Enron."

CONTINUED...

http://www.latefinal.com/archives/000899.html

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

59. What year is it?

[Octafish]

65. Dean's a mealy-mouthed mouse of a man.

It doesn't matter what year it is — Dean isn't smart enough to keep his lies straight. In 1996, he didn't like Iowa. In 2004, the guy loves Iowa.

Harkin endorses Dean

EXCERPT...

The timing of the endorsement was a political gift for Dean, who spent Friday struggling to prevent lasting damage from the impact of four-year-old comments on Canadian television in which he said the presidential caucus system was dominated by extremist interests.

‘‘Four years ago, I didn’t really understand the Iowa caucuses,’’ Dean said Friday. ‘‘I wouldn’t be where I am without the Iowa caucuses.’’

The broadcast filmed in Montreal, ‘‘The Editors,’’ covered U.S. and Canadian politics. NBC News reviewed 90 of Dean’s appearances on the show since 1996 and first reported his comments about the caucuses Thursday night.

On the Canadian program, Dean said: ‘‘If you look at the caucuses system, they are dominated by the special interests, in both sides, in both parties. The special interests don’t represent the centrist tendencies of the American people. They represent the extremes.’’

CONTINUED...

http://miva.dmregister.com/miva/cgi-bin/miva?news/live/display.mv+direction=showstory&showrec=4

Hey, RUMMY! Ask me about Dr. Dean's position on the Social Security retirement age! One day, Dean says he's for raising the retirement age to 70! Another day, he says he never said that!

Ha ha ha ha!!!! The guy is a liar. What's worse, Dean's a DUMB liar!

[Name removed]

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[bloom]

2. Or are we setting up traps?

?

There will be traps for all of them. Whoever makes it.


It up to us to make traps for the Republicans - or help them fall into their own.

[wtmusic]

3. Not a Dean-basher, huh?

The premise of this thread stinks to high hell. Is Dean damaged goods? Well, with Kerry war vote, I guess we're both in the bargain bin.

Sheesh...another flamefest. Ignore.

[Name removed]

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[MuseRider]

11. I am sorry to say

no you can't discuss anything anymore without this. I appreciate your question though. He was damaged goods to me the moment he began to make disingenuous statements. I don't care how far in the lead he is, lack of respect for others tells me he won't respect any of us either.

[wtmusic]

12. Please don't clutter the board

with more flamefest bullshit, and act indignantly as if there's a smidgen of substance to it.

Every candidate has their faults (even Kerry). If you're not going to compare faults, it's flaming. Period.

[Name removed]

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[wtmusic]

22. Laughable

Kerry has no problem with his war vote. Clark has no problem with his proposed attack on Pristina airport or his Republican remarks and voting record. Gep has no problem with his support of the PATRIOT act...

Your take that Dean's are somehow more serious than the others' is not supported by any facts or by polls. No substance whatsoever.

[Name removed]

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[wtmusic]

28. Dang, if only Dean was a little more 'Republican'...

I'm still waiting for something you are basing your opinion on...

:shrug:

[blm]

47. Dean is TOO Republican for me. His record is the most corporate friendly

and his civil liberties remarks over the years are the most appalling.

[Printer70]

53. "Corporate friendly" = joke

Name one governor who didn't incentivize businesses to create jobs in his state.

[Eloriel]

70. Pete

Howard Dean is only damaged goods to the extent we let the media get away with tearing apart the smallest thing.

I see a lot of posts on this forum that Dean lies, that he flip flops too much, etc. I've been following Dean closely for the better part of a year now. I know of NO instance where he has been "guilty" of what you and others claim.

There have been changes of mind (growth over a period of years, as with his position on NAFTA and WTO), there have been times when he forgot an off-hand remark from the 1990s (as with a comment he made to the effect that to save Social Security it might be necessary to consider raising the retirement age to 70 -- and it wasn't even that he said he said he FAVORED that, just that it might be something to cosnider); there have been gross distortions of what he did say by taking things out of context (as Paula Zahn did today with Trippi, refusing to read the rest of the quote from Dean on the Diane Rehm show where he said he didn't believe the "rumor" that the Saudis had pre-informed Bush about 9-11 but that that's the kind of thing that gains currency because Bush refuses to cooperate fully with an investigation); and even set-ups from the press (as when Howard Fineman laughingly asked Dean if he identified with Job and Dean's response was actually, "I am feeling a little Job-like these days," and then Fineman went on later to SLAM him for his arrogance.

Now, bozos and operatives here at DU will continue to make lots of hay about all this garbage, but the point remains that if WE -- ALL of us, on whoever's campaign and among whoever's supporters and all of America -- continue to allow this shit, it'll happen to whoever the nominee is. If it's not gaffes or "flip flops" (and Lordy, Lordy, what would they do with Kerry's record of statements on the war? or Clark's along with some the other things on HIS record), there'll be some other way to savage the Democratic frontrunner and nominee. (cf, Al Gore, 2000).

I'm not just saying this because I'm a Dean supporter, because as I said, it will befall whoever the front runner is, and whoever the nominee is.

We have GOT to get a fucking clue, people.

And that brings me to another thing Howard Dean said for which he received quite a bit of grief when he commented to a reporter that if we had good leadership at the head of the DNC, he'd stop the kinds of savaging attacks from the other candidates. There's NOTHING wrong with honest "attacks" or criticisms of policy differences, one's record, even one's perceived flip flops, but much of what's gone on will leave Dean (if he's the nominee and if not WHOEVER is the nominee) bleeding and wounded by the time the primaries are over in EXACTLY the way you describe.

So, YOU, my friend, are blaming the victim here. Yes, by God, he's quite likely to be damaged goods. And you can thank your guy for doing that, and you can thank several of the other candidates as well.

But don't imagine for a minute that anyone else would survive any better were they in this position or if they get in this position or the nomination. I almost wish Dean would temporarily drop out of the lead so someone else can get savaged like this for a while.

And I hear this argument: well, whoever our nominee is they're going to have to be tough enough to survive Karl Rove. That's absolutely true, but good grief, that doesn't mean that we do Rove's work for him, and even the Republicans are gleeful because that's PRECISELY what's happening.

Like I said, somehow, someway, some day, we've GOT to get a fucking clue.

And don't anybody give me that shit that Dean started it first. Dean has NEVER leveled the kinds of savaging, Rove-like assaults on anyone that have been leveled at Dean. Never. If any of you think that calling people who have behaved Bush-Lite on their behavior (when that's precisely what they needed to hear to stop that shit) is in any way Rove-like or, for that matter all that wounding, you've just not been paying attention.

Eloriel

[Name removed]

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[funky_bug]

10. Don't ignore - defend

Dean is not damaged goods. He has a very strong grassroots movement, and avid, loyal supporters. He's still number one in every poll, falling or not (spare me the "polls don't matter speech - what else have we got to go on right now - votes?)

If Dean stays on top and gets the nod, he'll get every Dem's vote... yes, EVERY Dems votes... whether we love him or hate him. If I hear that, "Not my vote" crap in response, I'm gonna chalk it up to an immature response from someone who doesn't play well with others.

Dean is still on our side - like him, love him, or loathe him. I won't go along with this trashfest anymore. No one likes the aftertaste resulting from eating their own words.

[Skwmom]

38. Wishful thinking.

Many Dean supporters just assume that we can put up any candidate and every Democrat will vote for him. I believe the one poll showed 20% of Democrats wouldn't vote for Dean and the real attacks on Dean haven't even begun. If Dean is the nominee I'm predicting the number will be higher than 20%.

[janx]

50. Thanks. It's no wonder you're an Irving reader!

:pals:

[funky_bug]

51. No, thank you!

You reminded me of happier times... when I was reading Owen Meany, and Bush was NOT my prez.

[imhotep]

4. No

you are projecting.

[Terwilliger]

6. given that Dean may be "damaged goods"

who isn't? If we got rid of Dean tomorrow, who would replace him?

[poskonig]

7. Dean opted out of public financing.

Other candidates did not. While all candidates will be attacked, I'm worried we'll be buried by Bush if Kerry or Dean are not chosen.

[Skwmom]

39. All the money in the world

won't save a damaged candidate.

[genius]

8. I know Democrats who won't vote for him. I don't know of any other

candidate that people dislike even half as much as Dean.

[stopbush]

21. You're kidding, right?

I can name two:

Lieberman

Bush

[asjr]

9. Rove will

paint any Dem a liberal liar. It doesn't matter who it is. It could be the front runner or the runner up. I am tired of the media bringing up all this stuff. It is just fodder for the pundits and CNN.
I support Dean if he is the nominee or if not, anyone who is the nominee. The media will be the death of all of us if they don't stop this crap. And it is crap, pure and simple. Politics is a dirty game and getting dirtier all the time. I am going to ignore it and wait until the primaries and the election. Shit happens.

[MuseRider]

15. You are right

they will paint every one of them as a liberal liar but it would be much easier for us in the long run if we had a candidate who wasn't so easy for even us to paint that way.

[bitchkitty]

13. Do you really believe

that the media would play nice with Clark or Kerry?

Dean's a fighter - that's what we need.

[Lobo_13]

16. Less damaged than Clinton

By far.

[JVS]

19. All candidates will be tarred with that brush

Dean just has had his tarring come earlier because he is the front runner

[YellowDawgDemocrat]

20. Yes, Clinton should have resigned, Hillary should have given up in

New York and in the future, when campaigns start getting toward the end result, we should switch and vote for the Green Party.

That's what made our party great. Quit when the political process nears completion.

[Name removed]

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[JVS]

35. hahahhahahahahha! What a rousing sentiment!

[stopbush]

23. Yep, just like Clinton was damaged goods - and 20 pts behind(!) -

in 1992...and we all know how THAT one turned out.

[Name removed]

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[stopbush]

37. I'm not following your logic here.

You asked if Dean was damaged goods, as if damaged goods exists in some sort of vacuum.

Yes, this isn't '92. In '92, Clinton faced a Bush whose record in office was FORMIDABLE when compared to that of his idiot son, and Clinton STILL won. The public perception was that Poppy "won" the Gulf War and that, for many, he was a continuation of Dr Feelgood (Reagan). The perception now is that we're in a quagmire in Iraq, the dim son declared victory too early, and that we're in for a long haul. The economy sucks and even Lou Dobbs is on bush's case over this "selfish recovery" and the exporting of jobs. Clinton beat bush over "read my lips." Sort of amazing when you think about it. Now, even the freepers are freaking out over the monster they've created.

I don't even look at Sharpton as damaged goods (ie: T. Brawley fiasco). Look at what came out about bush in just the last two days - no WMD, the Carnegie report, O'Neill calling him a blind man, his Enron buddies back in the news, recovery a joke (1,000 new jobs in Dec), and on and on it goes. If this is the stuff the media is allowing to slip through, just imagine what the REALLY bad stuff looks like!

Nope, the only guy running for pres who is damaged goods is Dubya. For every "Dean tapes" issue that the RW throws at our guys, there are dozens of bush fuck-ups that are turning people off to him and his facism. What do you think freaks out conservatives more - Dean bitching about the Iowa caucuses 4 years ago or bush's immigration policy fiasco?

We do ourselves and our candidates - all of our candidates - a disservice to waste even a moment's energy on such manufactured issues.

[Name removed]

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[stopbush]

56. You're correct that the ordinary rules of politics don't apply to

Dubya. In a normal year, a moderate/conservative incumbent would have RW pundits like Lou Dobbs falling in line, you'd have freepers already uncorking the champa...Budweiser, you'd have a record as president that had at least ONE redeeming quality to run on.

None of that is gonna happen this year. We are seeing the unraveling of the bushistas, it's only a matter of "when" we reach critical mass, not "if."

Bush will go down in flames, UNLESS they play out their ultimate scenario by either 1) declaring martial law and canceling the elections outright, or, 2) putting it in the bag via BBV. Based on their behavior and record to date, I fully believe that they are not above trying either of those scenarios to stay in power.

But the few remaining shreds of faith I have in the good sense of the American people says that these jokers are going down, big time.

[Terwilliger]

52. but we DO live in a McGovern or Dukakis America?

Just not a 1992 America?

[HFishbine]

27. A sincere attempt at an answer

Can you agree with me that the media is going to try to "soften up," as you put it, whoever the dems nominate? If not, if you think there's a candidate for whom they'd roll over, then that's the candidate you should think about supporting if this issue is of paramount concern for you.

However, if you think that they will go after any dem, then you have to consider this. You've seen what they are trying to pin on Dean. That's the known quantity. The unknown is how they will paint another candidate. Do we have a womanizer in the crowd? An alcoholic? Another waffler? An amatuer not ready for prime time? An infirmed candidate? A liar?

What I'm saying is, how will they attempt to smear another candidate and could it, would it, be worse than what they are trying to pin on Dean?

[Name removed]

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[wtmusic]

34. Gee, let's paint * as a waffler/liar

Much easier target, yet it doesn't seem to have seriously undermined his numbers, does it?

[Name removed]

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[Crunchy Frog]

60. Yes, * is a much easier target

and if this country still had an independent media he would probably lose in a race with Bozo the Clown. However, we now have a media that will cover every misstep made by the Democrat while virtually ignoring every one of *'s screwups.

In other words, his point still stands, that the old rules of politics no longer apply, and I at least am very concerned that we run the candidate who will be least vulnerable and will provide the least amount of ammunition.

[HFishbine]

40. The difference between Dean and Gore

If the media is determined, it's hard to repudiate any negative image they may try to pin on a candidate. Hard, but not impossible. What will help? Three things at least, not all unique to Dean, but different from Gore to some degree.

1) Standing up. Gore tried to brush off the misperceptions about him. He didn't forecefully refute them. Dean is a stand up guy. I think we have a number of candidates who would assert themselves to dispell any contrived misconceptions. A candidate who will stand up for himself will make a difference. A candidate who can quickly dispose of the silliness and move to offense, framing the discussion on his terms is even better.

2) Money. The more the better and I don't think I have to explain this one.

3) A large and active base of supporters. Every little thing that we do helps. Calling the media on its bullshit through calls and emails, writing letters to the editor, displaying bumber sickers -- all of it. Forgive me, but we DO have (some) power. The media doesn't interceed when we talk to our friends and neighors or when we campaign door-to-door.

[welshTerrier2]

66. what THEY did to Gore

both you and HF have omitted something important from your posts ...

i have no problem characterizing the media as right-wing ... they lie at every opportunity ... they are little more than propaganda machines for their corporate masters ... how can they seek truth when their real goal is to seek dollars ... the two are not often compatible ...

so, what's my beef?

the problem is that you both seem to buy into the idea that all of dean's credibility problems derive from a biased media ... i'm afraid that's just not the case ...

without producing, and defending, a laundry list of genuine flip-flops and missteps, me thinks the candidate owns his share of the blame here ... dean himself has acknowledged that he tends to "shoot from the hip" ... it's nice that he's aware of it ... but it's not OK that he does it ...

some of what THEY did to gore, dean is doing to himself ...

[HFishbine]

80. Oh, I agree

I didn't mean to suggest that Dean bears no responsibility. The media needs something to exagerate and obsess on.

But that doesn't make other candidates immune. A bout with the flu followed by a cyst removal and suddenly, your the sick candidate. Get hit in the eye with a frisbie, sprain an ankle jogging, and your the klutz. Get the number of disabled veterns wrong, forget the name of the president of the Phillipines, and you're unprepaired.

[candy331]

32. I wonder who dug up that nice little tape

from Canada? Since none of the others have had front runner status isn't it stupid to think there is no tape or something worse that will be dug up on anyone who has the front runner status? Get real people this is politics and it is dirty, a shame but that's facts. I was not in to politics back then but I will never forget that racist Willie Horton ad used by the republicans.

[LSdemocrat]

29. They'll make the same argument about Clark, Kerry

I don't foresee much of a problem with Dean (Trippi will keep the campaign on the right track)

But they can make the same case about the other leading candidates in the race:

Clark: Speech to Pulaski county GOP, political opportunist, one day "I would have probably voted for the war" next day "I would not have"

Kerry: his various explanations and stances on the war (before recent times)

It all depends on how well the campaign operates. If it works well, we shouldn't have a problem, if it pulls a Dukakis (fails to respond to attacks), we're screwed.

[Upfront]

33. Don't Worry

Everyone but Clark and Dean is history. Soon Clark will be history. Dean is your next President. Get used to saying President Dean, soon you will get it.

[quaker bill]

43. No

No more than the others. 90 percent of it is out of context BS anyway.

[Dr Fate]

44. They will attack and lie about whoever the candidate is...

...we all need to start pulling together as DEMS, no matter who wins the nom...

[mzmolly]

45. That's the goal, but they haven't succeeded.

bummer

[tishaLA]

46. "Damaged goods" is part of the political process

it's not something that botehrs me about Dean at all. I'm a Clark supporter, and I recognize that some might want to fetishize the early days of Clark's campaign as representative of him as a candidate. I think that's bullshit.

The best line I heard about the primary process was that it works like putting clay into a superheated oven: some clay will break, while others will be tempered and stronger because of it. Whether the candidate is Dean, Clark, Kerry, or Edwards, I am sure they will be quite strong. And even stronger because ALL of us will be united behind him or her.

[Cheswick2.0]

49. Kerry is damaged goods

Dean is doing just fine

[Printer70]

54. No one is paying attention to primary but Dem base

Dean is fine with most of the mainstream. He's got a bad rap also amongst GOP circles but so will any Dem candidate after talk radio and Limbaguh gets through with them.

[Crunchy Frog]

55. I have to admit

that a few months back I thought that Dean was a much stronger contender for the GE than I think he is now. He was very much my second choice because of his appearance as a straight shooter and someone who would fight back without looking sleazy. Things that I have been seeing in recent weeks are forcing me to reassess my original assessments. I now believe that he is weaker than I originally thought.

This does not make me happy because there is a better than even chance that he will get the nomination and I'm becoming increasingly fearful that Karl Rove will eat him alive.

I am very sorry if this post offends anyone, but it is my honest opinion.

[KaraokeKarlton]

57. Pete, the more Dean gets attacked, the better he does

It only makes him more determined and the mud hurled at him just slides off his back. Frankly, none of the other candidates would be able to survive the shit that's been hurled at Dean and STILL be leading and gaining ground as Dean is. Honestly, what is Bush going to throw at him that hasn't already been thrown by his Democratic opponents? Dean is the best prepared to face Bush, and he CAN and WILL beat him. Take this Vermonter's word for it...Howard Dean will NOT let America down. If it's possible to beat Bush, Dean will get it done. I've never seen anyone campaign like he does. He'll hit 5 states a day 7 days a week if that's what he needs to do.

[Name removed]

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[WiseMen]

81. Many Dean Problems are self-inflicted.

[lcordero]

58. the trap has been set for a very long time.

I'll tell you this much, I wish that I could have been Skinner for a day back in May 2003 just so that I could have taken a look to see if all of the IPs were from the same subnet if you catch my drift.

on edit: What Americans are going to be looking at in November is, "Am I going to pick the evil that I know or the evil that I don't know?"

[arewethereyet]

61. Dr Dean has damaged himself beyond repair

and he can blame noone but himself, it all came fron his own mouth.

He had a great plan (actually Trippi had a great plan) but he was unable to execute as he refuses to think about any word before it comes out of his mouth. Much like my ten year old oddly enough.

[w4rma]

62. No. And, it seems pretty obvious that he's the only guy who can survive

smears like those that are being thrown at him by opportunistic opponents.

[Armstead]

63. WHOEVER is the nominee will be "damaged goods"

Dean has been damaged because he is the perceived front runner.

But whoever ultimately emerges will be a target for similar treatment. Kerry's "Frenchness" haircuts, looks, flip flops, etc. Clark's military record, flip flops, Clinton connections, lobbyist career, etc. Edwards' trial lawyer past...etc. etc.

Better get used to that, and stop setting our choices on what they will say, because whoever it is they will try to make into damaged goods.

[welshTerrier2]

64. i don't like dean ...

i read some of the biased, intolerant criticisms of Pete's base post ... when we get to the point that only positive comments are permitted about Lord Dean, we're really in trouble ... some of the immaturity and lack of intellectual integrity that afflicts some of the most partisan dean supporters on DU has colored my attitudes about dean himself ...

fwiw, i am still undecided ... but i have decided that there is no way i'm voting for dean (in the primaries)... so, understand this, for me, dean is indeed damaged goods ...

i was a very early supporter of howard dean ... i made the first contact between DU and his Burlington campaign office ... but Dean has alienated me on numerous occasions ...

3 specific points (i don't intend to debate them in this thread because the question asked in the base post is whether we think Dean is damaged goods) ... i'm listing them here to explain why i feel the way i do ... not to debate whether i'm right or wrong for having the beliefs i have ...

so, here are 3 reasons i don't like dean:
1. i think he's been disingenous about his stand on Iraq (he's tapdanced all over the place about his 60 days statement)
2. i saw him distort statements that Kucinich made describing statements Dean had made about the mandatory retirement age
3. i hated dean's arrogance and anti-party attitude when he stated that his supporters would only vote democratic if he was the nominee ... even if this were true, this is not the kind of message democrats, any democrat, should be sending ...

what do i think will happen? it's still to tough to call ... if dean can't land a real knockout blow in january, i think he'll eventually fade back into the pack ... and if he does get an early and decisive win, i think the democrats are in trouble ...

[Name removed]

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[welshTerrier2]

69. thanks Pete

ya know, i've noticed a subtle change, almost an unconscious change, in my feelings about dean over the last month or two ...

it used to be that i really liked most of the candidates, especially while they so eloquently highlighted the failures of the bush empire ... while i had withdrawn my early support for dean, i was proud to have him on our team pounding away against bush ...

but lately, i've grown to dislike the guy ... and it's not "buying in to what the media tells me" ... the truth is, i mostly listen to dean's direct statements ... i hardly watch any tv news at all ...

i really do see him as a shoot-from-the-hip flip flopper ... and i really hated his disloyal, arrogant statements about his supporters taking a walk if he wasn't the nominee ... as i said in another reply in this thread, even if it's true, saying it is bad for the party ...

and if dean is starting to slip among those who earlier supported him, how well will he do among the undecideds ... fwiw, this is one undecided who just doesn't like the guy ...

[w4rma]

71. Dean: “I will not run as independent. I will support the nominee.”

…
KING: New York City, as we go to some calls for Governor Howard Dean, hello.

CALLER: Hi. Governor Dean, I have been so impressed by you ever since I saw you on “Meet the Press.” And I'm going to my first Dean meeting this week. And my question for you is that many Democrats believe that if not for Ralph Nader staying in the election that we wouldn't have George Bush as a president.

So my question to you is, if you do not get the Democratic nomination, will you still run on the independent ticket?

DEAN: No, I will not.

CALLER: If so, how will that impact the upcoming race?

DEAN: I will not run as independent. I will support the nominee. It is essential that George Bush not be re-elected for the future of this country. It is essential for our economy. It's essential, so we can regain the respect we had around the world. And I will under no circumstances run as a third party and independent. I will back the nominee. I hope I am the nominee because I can bring about half those votes that voted for Ralph Nader back into the party. That's how we are going to win. And I think at this point there is no other evidence that any of the other candidates can do that and I think that's why I'm the most likely to beat George Bush.
…
http://www.cnn.tv/TRANSCRIPTS/0308/04/lkl.00.html

[welshTerrier2]

72. if your point is

that dean is more loyal to the democratic party than ralph nader was in 2000, than i have no disagreement with your post ...

but i don't see how dean's callous observation that his supporters would not be likely to vote democratic if he doesn't get the nomination is helpful to our cause ... regardless of his beliefs on the issue, he should be doing everything he can to enlist new voters into the party no matter who gets the nomination ... it sounded to me like he only wants to encourage them to be democrats if they vote for him ...

[adadem]

73. Like you WT2

I was a early supporter...tho my reasons are different. Most importantly for me I didn't feel comfortable with some of the campaign plans and what would be expected of volunteers...not that they were unethical just the methodology.

I think that many of us who were early supporters and then left have much stronger feelings about him and thus are in a difficult spot.
I've already come to terms with the fact that for the first time in many,many years I may not be able to vote for the Dem nominee for President. As much as I despise bush I find that I despise dean and what he stands for just as much.

I know I'm not alone...my deepest fear is that we may be heading toward a big floor fight and eventual brokered nomination in Boston. This will put the Dems at a big disadvantage and leading into a bigger divide within the party.

[welshTerrier2]

77. my little simplistic analysis

your post was painful to read ... it sounds like you can't find a good place to land ...

here's my little simplistic analysis of where we came from and where we're going ...

first the history ... 9/11 happened ... and most of the dems rolled over when bush's poll numbers were close to 90% ... that's the real problem for the democrats ... not howard dean ... that's where the real rift began ... with the exception of byrd, kennedy and kucinich and a few others, it was more a question of "dude, where's my party?" ...

during the runup to the invasion of iraq, i was one of DU's most vociferous anti-kerry voices ... and anti-gephardt, edwards and lieberman ... i proudly proclaimed that no democrat (i called them demHawks) who voted for the war would get my vote ... i thought about "going green" ... today, i just don't think i can afford that luxury anymore ... all candidates are back on the table ...

anyway, there was a giant vacuum to be filled ... there really was no "democratic wing of the democratic party" ... at least not regarding the IWR ... and howard dean, with virtually nothing to lose stepped into the void ... any marketing guy can tell you it's nice to fill a niche and corner the market ... i liked that dean wasn't afraid to speak out against bush ... i give him credit for doing it during those very dark days when many were silenced by the perceived political risks of standing up to bush ...

so dean took off ... and his momentum has carried him a very long way ... unfortunately, though, i'm afraid the toe-to-toe combativeness that filled a need at one time has turned to something not as appealing ... and dean will begin to lose support now ... whether it's the beginning of the end for him or whether he can hold out and maintain enough momentum remains to be seen ... for anyone who thinks dean's a sure bet, think again ... this will not likely be over until sometime in march if at all ...

you may be right about a brokered convention ... but i'll tell you where i think you're not right ... and that's about not voting Dem ... i know i don't have to tell you how horrible 4 more years of darkness would be ... we can't afford to have republicans in complete control of our government anymore ... if you're not in a battleground state, no problem ... vote your conscience ... but if your vote could make a difference, the price is just too high to not vote Dem ...

one last point about brokered conventions ... i know the conventional wisdom is that you need to get down to a nominee as early as possible ... all the old cliche's about a house divided and we'll never heal the wounds and blah, blah, blah ... well, perhaps all that old wisdom is true ... but if a brokered convention gets us a stronger nominee, perhaps someone who is not even running right now (Hillary, Gore, Harkin ???), than maybe it wouldn't be so bad after all ... most voters don't pay too much attention to politics until convention-time anyway ... perhaps that's just wishful thinking but i'm keeping an open mind on the subject ...

[stickdog]

76. What the whore press is saying: "Dean did something that could kind of

be construed aggainst him, although it really wasn't newsworthy. Dean did something that could kinda be construed aggainst him, although it really wasn't newsworthy. Dean did something that could kinda be construed aggainst him, although it really wasn't newsworthy. Dean did something that could kinda be construed aggainst him, although it really wasn't newsworthy."

What people are hearing: "Dean, Dean, Dean, Dean."

[fernwoods]

78. Reply to "Crucial question for ALL Dems: Is Dean damaged goods?"

I agree that Dean has been selected by those in control to run against Bush because he will be so easy to defeat. The way the media repeated over and over that Gore said he invented the Internet which must have been taken out of context, they will really use the lies of Dean to their benefit. And since Dean believes in mercy killing, which is a crime in Vermont, all it would take is for one person to say he has done mercy killing and whether it is true or not won't matter, the media will tell the story before they know if it is true and he will have no chance to win. I really feel that by the time the press got done with him, he would have no chance against Bush.

[welshTerrier2]

79. welcome to DU, fernwoods

always nice to save a copy of your first post ...

do you feel that other democrats would be less susceptible to attacks by the media?

i have some real issues with dean but i'm not sure he's more damaged than bush is on many issues ... i think it's going to be a very close election no matter whom the dems nominate ...