Here we post all evidence that contradicts the "debate draw" spin.

[LoZoccolo]

We don't need our own subjective comments about who we liked better. We have:

- polls, even traditional ones and not online ones
- the National Review Online article that says Kerry won
- quote from Scarborough
- quote from Pat Buchanan

But see unfortunately I'm at work and can't look around and collect this stuff much, but you know that all this good solid evidence needs to be collected fast so let's go to it.

Please post good solid stuff from polls and "hostile witnesses", not just "he looked like a chimp when he was waiting for Kerry to finish" or "he was whiny".

Then we can blast it out in say an hour and a half. So at 1:30 central time we'll organize a blast. Go.

[LoZoccolo]

1. Okay here's the NRO article.

http://www.nationalreview.com/nordlinger/nordlinger200410010114.asp

Not exactly the "liberal media" saying this.

[Village Idiot]

2. From UPI:

http://interestalert.com/brand/siteia.shtml?Story=st/sn/09300000aaa0449b.upi&Sys=siteia&Fid=POLITICS&Type=News&Filter=Politics

Judges pronounce Kerry the winner

By DONNA BORAK

WASHINGTON, Sept. 30 (UPI) -- Judges on a seven-person panel arranged by United Press International declared Sen. John Kerry, D-Mass., the winner of Thursday night's presidential debate at the University of Miami.

"In this debate, (President) Bush barely avoids mistakes, because Kerry avoids successes. Bush doesn't win because Kerry doesn't (lose)," said James J. Unger, director of the National Forensics Institute at American University. Unger prepared the evaluation form, which was distributed to all of the debate judges.

Each judge was asked to rank the candidates based on their ability to focus on the issues, present valid facts, refute their opponent's inaccuracies, respond effectively to questions and present a clear message, all on a scale of 1 to 5.

Unger gave Kerry a score of 18 and Bush 16. He said that Kerry accomplished his goal, which was to get the public to view him as a commander in chief.

"Kerry was consistently in command of a presidential message," said Unger.

Another judge, Prof. William Southworth, director of debate at the University of Redlands in California, said that Kerry won, but only by a hair. He awarded both Kerry and Bush the same number of points: 20.

"Ten out of the 18 questions Bush argued Kerry was and would send mixed signals," said Southworth. "This inconsistency is catastrophic. ... The senator is unfortunately silent at the wrong time and the wrong place."

However, Rene Sterner said that it was Bush who appeared unresponsive, often offering up one-sentence responses. He recalled Bush's response to Kerry's remark on "smartness." He said, "'We have to be totally unchanging.' I didn't think that was an adequate response -- un-changeability."

Criticisms of Bush were relayed by panelists who said the president appeared at times flabbergasted, scattered and sometimes unresponsive, while Kerry appeared poised and reflective.

Melissa Wade, director of forensics at Emory University in Atlanta, thought the cutaways shots by television cameras, which the campaigns tried to have declared off limits, only to have the television networks rebel, "strongly favored Kerry, who looked, on-balance, respectful of the president," while she said Bush looked "impatient and perturbed," comparing it to Vice President Al Gore's sighs in the 2000 presidential debate. She gave 15 points to Bush and 18 points to Kerry.

Several of the judges felt that both candidates remained focused on the issues for most of the debate, but perhaps the rules of the debate had gone too far.

Unger said, "All we needed were two debaters and one aggressive moderator, and that would be enough to beat a 33-page document every time."

But overall, the point that struck most of the panelists was that Kerry had done what he needed to do: appear presidential and reach out to voters in a clear, concise manner.

Ted Belch, who has judged the last four presidential debates, said that John Kerry did a better job of "directly, meaningfully and concisely answering the questions of Jim Lehrer," moderator of the debate.

"The American people can make a more coherent choice between these two men after tonight," said Belch.