Dean's Faith-Based Folly (Washington Post)

[chimpymustgo]

In awarding Howard Dean his "Panda Bear of the Year Award, Washington Post columnist Colbert King had a few searing insights into the opportunism of Howard Dean.
********

Dean's Faith-Based Folly


By Colbert I. King
Saturday, January 10, 2004; Page A19


-snip-

A panda bear is my own humble way of recognizing the politician who is most shameless when it comes to pandering or ingratiating himself or herself with the voters. Dean is this year's winner, hands down. The second-place finisher wasn't even close.

Dean captured the suck-up prize with his revelation that -- praise the Lord -- he has finally found a way to talk about his deeply held religious faith. Most remarkable, and the reason he won going away, was his explanation for how he reached this exquisite moment of sudden understanding. Was it a particular scene, some road-to-Damascus experience, that occasioned such a flash of insight in Dean? What, pray tell, set off Dean's new compulsion to openly discuss Jesus and his mastery of the Bible?

-snip-

So, Dean, who rarely sets foot in a church, and until recently campaigned for president as if religion was the farthest thing from his mind, has now decided to give full voice to his faith as he attempts to win the hearts, souls and, most important, the votes of South Carolina's Democratic faithful.

Now, does that man deserve a panda bear or what?

What's most amazing is Dean's fearlessness in messing around with the Lord's people. In my book, it's okay to make up to corn growers in Iowa and to toady to the anti-George Bush wing of the Democratic Party. It's even understandable -- though not forgivable -- to get on the good side of good old boys driving pickup trucks with Confederate flags in the back. But a politician is treading on thin ice when he starts trying to creep into the good graces of the faithful by pretending he's one of them, or by suggesting that his political value system reflects his faith.

After all, this is the same Howard Dean who said that "we have got to stop having the campaigns run in this country based on abortion, guns, God and gays," the same Howard Dean who once said his policy views are not formed by his faith. But now this new Howard Dean, faced with having to pass the test of the South's faithful, turns on a dime and tells The Post that his decision as governor to sign a civil union bill benefiting gays was influenced by his Christian views.

-snip-



------------------------------------------------------------------------
Much more at: 
 
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A4900-2004Jan9.html

[BootinUp]

1. oouuuch!

This is basically what I predicted. Before you jump on me, I am talking about the media, not my opinion of Deans faith.

[chimpymustgo]

2. Is there any way to interpret Dean's "finding Jesus"

OTHER than political opportunism?

King does an excellent job of making the case.

[janx]

48. When did Dean "find Jesus" ?

Am I missing something?

[zeemike]

5. The media can and will spin anything

No matter what Dean said about religion, they would have a spin for it if they chouse to select religion as the topic.
If he would have said he was atheist or agnostic could you see what spin they would have? And if he refused to talk about religion they could, if they wanted to, go after him for that as well.
As long as we are manipulated in this way, allowing them to have there agenda, the RW will control this country.

[windansea]

8. no need for media spin

Dean himself admitted he would talk about God in his southern stump speeches

I don't give a hoot if he got the Panda award...but people are going to see right through this obvious ploy

[BootinUp]

10. But who started the spinning

is what the article is about. And that is why it will cost him far more in the (edit)red states. You simply cannot deny that Dean was playing politics, heck he announced it.

The media wants to make money first and foremost. They will talk about whatever brings them more rating points.

edited for color blindness.

[zeemike]

15. The media wants to make money

This is the great cop out that exempts them form fairness and the responsibality for reporting the truth.

[BootinUp]

21. So you would disagree if I said

That Fox overtaking CNN in ratings caused CNN to adjust their news coverage to be more foxlike?

[spooky3]

3. to the extent that King is correct, to me it is a greater indictment of

voters than of Dean, especially with respect to demanding that candidates go to church regularly and speak about it, while campaigning for a job for which there are constitutional protections against entanglement.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[zeemike]

7. If I didn’t know I was in DU

I would think that picture of Dean and Jesus was a repug dirty trick.

[Renew Deal]

9. You need to learn how to laugh

It's funny stuff

[zeemike]

11. Would you laugh?

If I posted a picture of Clark with raised hand in uniform in front of a Nazi flag?
I’ll bet not.

[Renew Deal]

24. It's Jesus

I don't get what Jesus has to do with the Nazi's.

[maddezmom]

13. trying to keep my sense of humor

I did like the flip-flop one. :)

[janx]

27. The URL for that pic also contains the Dean-as-Hitler photoshop

job.

Tell me, is that an official Clark site?

[Renew Deal]

40. No

[mzmolly]

71. It would appear to be "yes" Bleachers?

:shrug:

[Renew Deal]

82. Check post 75

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=94673&mesg_id=95983&page=

It explains the technology

[mzmolly]

97. It explains how someone attempted to cover their tracks.

The Clark campaign needs to remove any association with this site! These are Clark supporters, and this along with the stop dean movement is leaving a really bad taste in my mouth Bleachers. This isn't passing the smell test?

[Renew Deal]

103. At least you understand what is going on.

The pictures need to be linked to specifically as far as I can tell. You have to know they are there so you can use them. I don't think you can browse to the pictures. A good place to complain is the host.

http://www.freepgs.com/

FreePgs.com - The best free webspace on the net

Free 20 MB PHP Web Hosting with No Ads Login Signup

Get a completely free 20 MB website with NO ADS and a short URL

[mzmolly]

113. I wish I did understand what is going on. I've seen to many questionable

*proove it* type activities from some Clark supporters. I am sad for my party. It crosses the line Bleachers.

I think it is YOU that should complain to the host. I also think you should complain to the Clark campaign as this site is collecting donations for your candidate.

[Renew Deal]

118. Forget it. 115 and 116 explains it all

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=94673&mesg_id=96118&page=

I agree. I will complain too. It was a republican disrupter.

Edit: BTW, how are they accepting donations? That site points to the real Clark site.

[mzmolly]

123. The site is pro-clark/anti-dean...

Bleachers. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that these are people associated with Clark's campaign. Just like the stopdean movement was. I am disgusted with your peers. Granted, they dont speak for Clark or yourself, but they don't bode well for your cause.

They link to an offical Clark site, not a Bush site Bleachers, you deemed him/her a "republican" disruptor. He is officially merely a "DU disruptor." There is no *proof* of party affiliation. ;)

Again, they may or may not be officially associated with Clarks campaign, but I'm seeing far too many coincidences to keep writing them off.

[Renew Deal]

124. It looks like Jim was right

They might have stolen the code. The picture in the middle of the site doesn't change.

[fjc]

12. It's a Duer standing in for a Republican...

[janx]

22. the same website has the pic of Dean as Hitler...

The infamous one we've seen appear around here from time to time.

Isn't that interesting?

[Renew Deal]

25. That has nothing to do with me.

I only linked the pic. I never checkout out the website.

[janx]

29. Is it an official Clark site or not?

?

[maddezmom]

36. NO

it's not there...

[mzmolly]

70. MM, your a fair person.

The link states:


© 2004 - Paid for by Clark For President - P.O. Box 2959, Little Rock, AR 72203

and here are their Meta tags

<META TYPE="description" CONTENT="Official campaign Web site of Clark for President. Features biography, photo gallery, news, and information for volunteers and supporters.">
<META TYPE="keywords" CONTENT="Wesley Clark, General Wesley Clark for President, democratic candidates, presidential candidates, Gen. Wesley Clark, democratic presidential candidates, General Clark, Wesley Clarke, presidential elections, 2004 presidential candidates, 2004 presidential election, wes clark, democratic primary">
<META name="ROBOTS" content="INDEX, FOLLOW">

<title>General Wesley Clark for President - Official Campaign Web Site</title>

Official Campaign Web Site

I hate to say this Clark supporters, but the integrity questions surrounding Clark are coming to mind here. I realize you are not responsible as Clark supporters ok? I also realize Clark personally may not be, but someone should be out of a job over this.

[Renew Deal]

84. Check post 75

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=94673&mesg_id=95983&page=

It explains the technology

[mzmolly]

102. It would appear the Clark campaing has taken advantage of the

technology? I'm not impressed. Where are Clark supporters finding out about these graphics? You should be trying to get to the bottom of this Bleachers, not posting pics from this obnoxious site.

[Renew Deal]

105. Not to their knowledge

There is no way to know who is linking to you. I found the jesus picture because someone posted it on here. I had no idea what the site was. Now we know it is a free hosting service. I think I got to the bottom of it. They will never tell me who opened it by name.

FreePgs.com - The best free webspace on the net

Free 20 MB PHP Web Hosting with No Ads Login Signup

Get a completely free 20 MB website with NO ADS and a short URL

[janx]

115. Yes--Campaign for Clark posted it, as did Jujube2.

It was posted here at least twice before you posted it. That much is true.

[Renew Deal]

116. OK, that's a clue

ClarkCampaigner was banned. I think they were a repuke disrupter. That explains it.

[mzmolly]

117. These coincidences are popping up far to often in the ranks of Clarks

so called *clean* campaign.

[Renew Deal]

121. How do we know you didn't do it?

Just to cause tension. Prove that you didn't do it. It looks like it was a republican disrupter that did this.

[mzmolly]

126. What a ridiculous question. desperate to boot...

this is becoming far more interesting as of late.

Do investigate Bleachers, you seem to have some knowledge in these matters. Let us know what/who you find.

[Renew Deal]

129. Check this out.

This person was the original source of the pictures...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=93510

[mzmolly]

134. Glad he's gone.

:hi:

[maddezmom]

125. mzmolly~ I agree it looks bad

but I think there are too many possiblities to say it was paid for by Clark. Come on, I know you don't really think that's the truth. I think it's a disruptor. Someone with a lot more internet savvy than me can figure it out. I tried to point this out in another thread that got either locked or moved.

[janx]

17. What is the source of this pic?

I come up with:

"http://www.freepgs.com/clark04/"


Can you shed some light on this please? Is this an official Clark site?

[BootinUp]

26. Not official

If you go to www.freepgs.com you will see that anyone can set up an account there. I don't think its possible to determine the owner of that page. Also I didn't see the hitler smear of Dean, are you sure it was the same url?

[janx]

31. Try "trust.jpg"

Yes. I am sure.

[BootinUp]

35. Disgusting

picture.

You really question that this might be an official campaign page? Come on....

[janx]

42. It looked fairly official and mirrored the official site.

Meetup, Madonna, the standard Clark graphics, everything. Links to the blog, other Clark sites, the choo-choo train, everything.

[BootinUp]

44. Its easy to steal a web page...

[janx]

66. Please see message #63.

n/t

[Renew Deal]

85. Check post 75

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=94673&mesg_id=95983&page=

It explains the technology

[janx]

91. Screw the technology, Bleachers. That isn't the point.

This page is part and parcel of the Clark campaign. Now you can go into denial over this or you can acknowledge it and do something about it.

If I ever, ever saw someone from the Dean campaign (and there are plenty of linked websites there) try to get away with this low-rent smear tactic, I'd report it immediately and the page would be gone from cyberland in a matter of HOURS.

[Renew Deal]

98. You can deny the truth all you want

You have no proof it is paid for by Clark. I have proved that you are wrong. It is not my fault that you do not understand the technology. I have explained it to you.

The host is not paid for by Clark. The redirecter is not paid for by Clark and it is probably not paid for by anyone since they have free in their name. The site isn't hosted, just the pictures. The rest is a redirect.

[maddezmom]

120. thanks for explaining

I'll be the first one to admit, I have no understanding or knowledge of how this works. :) My first thought this am, was that it was a disruptor. General Clark would not approve of this type of thing.

edited: thought I was replying to Jim. oops

[janx]

96. So you think that somebody stole this web page? I'm not

trying to corner you here. I'm trying to figure out what's going on. It almost looks like some kind of clandestine right wingnut activity we're dealing with here, and that certainly isn't out of the realm of possibility.

Just look at the thread on the fake emails Dean supporters are getting.

[BootinUp]

101. Theres no thinking involved, I'll try to explain it though

Its a fact that someone, not the offical Clark campaign, set up a site on freepgs.com. Then they copied the content from the official site to their own. Its done all the time, legally and illegally. Its also done to do spoofs where they make humorous changes to a page. Someone should report it to the Clark campaign though, they could get it pulled down.

[Renew Deal]

114. Post 112 includes another possible cause

but both are valid

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=94673&mesg_id=96118&page=

[mzmolly]

133. Can the Clark campaign prevent/stop this Jim?

It sure looks bad for them regardless.

[BootinUp]

144. I'm sure if they knew about it they could call the hosting

site and get it taken off.

[Renew Deal]

45. It's a pointer

It could be forwarding to there also.

[mzmolly]

100. Why would the Clark campaign allow this "pointer" to be associated?

The site clearly links to an official Clark site. Clark supporters post filth from that site time and time again HERE. Do explain? How are you all finding out about this? Someone involved with the Clark campaign is clearly behind this matter. Perhaps it's the stop dean crew, perhaps not. But, this is damaging YOUR cause. And YOU should do something about it.

[Renew Deal]

108. They can't avoid it.

There is no way to know someone is doing this. I have never seen this filth. Can you provide some examples? I can't explain if you can't prove. I found out because I am a techie and I understand this stuff. Do you still insist that someone in the Clark campaign is behind this? I have explained how anyone can do this for free; even you. How is it damaging my cause? I am not an internet cop who is going to baby sit everyone out there. I will see what I can do. You should pursue it yourself also since you are so offended.

[mzmolly]

135. I don't intend to pursue this in the same manner you are.

but you can consider it pursued on my end.

[jujube2]

143. could be a Dean campaign dirty trick, making it look like Clark is sliming

This reverse psychology is a classic dirty trick.

Or it could even be the Clark campaign making it look like they are being framed, to get the sympathy support since everyone rallies to someone who has been wrongly accused - plus it could give them a good platform to sanctimoniously claim to be above it.

Or it might just be a Clark fanatic who really thinks he's doing the good work.
Any one of these are possibilities.

[Renew Deal]

41. Some overzealous supporter

or malicious person needs to be reigned in.

[jujube2]

93. I found another one - try "america.jpg"

I found it here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=87784

[janx]

104. You yourself posted that one earlier today, correct?

I remember seeing that in another thread that was subsequently locked.

[jujube2]

106. no, I didn't, but I saw it and a few others

I posted the jesus one because I thought it was funny.

[maddezmom]

132. yes, janx

you are correct. That's the thread, where I first saw it. Called it offensive.

[Renew Deal]

119. That one is probably why that person got banned.

That's nasty stuff.

[janx]

128. Oh, now I see what you mean--america.jpg

From "Clark Campaigner" no less.

[Renew Deal]

130. That's right. Look at this

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=93510

[mzmolly]

63. It says it's paid for by the Clark campaign..??

© 2004 - Paid for by Clark For President - P.O. Box 2959, Little Rock, AR 72203 - and here are their Meta tags

Can anyone explain this?

[janx]

65. HOLY COW! I missed that completely!

So it is official, at least in terms of funding.

[Renew Deal]

67. no necessarily

I think it points to the official Clark site.

[mzmolly]

69. And, it's paid for by the Clark campaign.

"THE CLARK CAMPAIGN?!"

I knew this propaganda effort to smear Dean was trickling down from the top brass. This confirms my suspicions.

[janx]

72. No, at the bottom of the page it clearly states:

© 2004 - Paid for by Clark For President - P.O. Box 2959, Little Rock, AR 72203

[Renew Deal]

76. Right

You can set up a web server to redirect to somewhere else. You can also steal the source code. It's pretty easy to do.

I am saying that it is redirecting to the Clark site.

[janx]

81. It may be redirecting to the Clark site, but it is--of itself--

paid for by the Clark campaign.

The "paid for" information does not refer to the original, main site. It refers to the site in question. That much is clear.

[Renew Deal]

86. You have them mixed up.

What is paid for is the official website.

The other site is a free hosting service. Anyone can use it.

[mzmolly]

94. Tell me why so many Clark supporters for DU are made aware?

I've seen graphics from that site time and time again HERE.

It would appear that the scoundrels have attempted to cover their tracks, but not very well?

[Renew Deal]

99. Proof?

I would love to see what you are talking about. I have ben here for a whil and hav not seen anything like that. Also, it is a free web host. You or anyone can use it and they can put anything on it.

[mzmolly]

109. Perhaps it didn't strike you like it did me, I've seen these nasty pics

on several occassions here. The proof lies here in this thread in what is now a deleted post.

[Renew Deal]

122. You know what? I just saw them.

Someone else posted a link full of them. It is crap. I hadn't seen that before.

[mzmolly]

136. They don't last long as they are deleted.

Sorry you have missed them in the past. I unfortunately have not.

[janx]

107. My ultimate point is: Who in this case is using it?

Is this legitimate?

[Renew Deal]

110. Who: Someone out on the net.

It could be anyone, even you. Maybe you posted this to stir the pot. I have no way of nowing.

Is it legitimate??? No

[Jerseycoa]

146. God, no

Please don't think that, Janx. :(

[BootinUp]

95. Nonsense

It is not redirecting anything, someone copied the HTML code for clarks homepage and put it on their own site.

[Renew Deal]

112. That's possible too.

The reason why I think it's a redirect is it is going to Clark's active site. It is not a 1 day old version of it. If you want, scheck it a few times today. You will see the money change. If the money changes (or is accurate right now) it is a redirect.

[Jerseycoa]

145. Is this all straightened out now?

If you click on this (the fake site):

http://www.freepgs.com/clark04/

And reload, you get Madonna, the previous endorsement pic, which is no longer there at 7:40 PM. Proves this is not Clark's site but a previous version. It's only when you click on live links that you reach the real Clark 04 site.


If you click on this (the real site):

http://clark04.com/

And reload, you get the Ortiz, the current endorsement pic.


It is not a domain being forwarded to Clark 04. So somebody boosted the code for Clark 04 and put it up on a free host mirroring the official site. The mirror site is also hosting these disgraceful pictures. A freeper signed onto DU and posted a Jesus picture (which I have not seen) or a Hitler picture (which I very much regret having seen) that had something to do with Dean from that fake site.

Do I have that all right? I'd like to alert the Clark campaign if no one else already has.


On Edit: I notified the Clark campaign and asked they try to get it removed from www.freepgs.com - we all must be vigilant, no matter the candidate being victimized, this stuff is vile and unacceptable. I have no way of knowing who did this. I tend to think RW freeping, but you really do never know. We have to be our own investigators and stay alert, because it's only going to get worse and worse until next November. The Dean-Hitler picture was enough to convince me of what is to come. We can't jump on each other unless we know the facts. So far, all we know with this one is the Clark 04 site was hijacked for a disgusting purpose.

[mzmolly]

68. Yep the "Clark is running a clean campaign meme" appears totally

false.

[janx]

73. This is the filthiest attack I've seen yet.

It puts all others on an almost legitimate level by comparison.

[mzmolly]

75. By far Janx. And the fact that so many have taken part here leaves me

baffled. I wonder how many contributed to Clarks campaign with THAT in mind? Sad really.

[Renew Deal]

77. Is this a joke?

You don't seem to understand the technology. A site is redirecting people from themselves to the official Clark sight. It's not that hard to do.

Click on this:

www.americansforclark.com
www.meetclark.com
www.clark04.com

You will see that the fild on the top matches the one you clicked and they all go to the same sight. It's that easy and enyone could do it.

[mzmolly]

90. It says Paid for by the Clark Campaign Bleachers.

You tell me how Clark supporters find these pics?

[Renew Deal]

127. The person wasn't a Clark supporter.

Someone on here posted before that it was a republican disrupter.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=93510

[janx]

78. Most Clark supporters know nothing of this garbage.

That's the saddest part, yes, because they paid for it!

[BootinUp]

80. highly dubious to say the least n/t

[janx]

83. You think they knew? Did you know?

Surely you didn't know about this.

[BootinUp]

87. Know what, that someone set up a page and copied the HTML

code from www.clark04.com?

Because thats all this is.

[Renew Deal]

88. See post 81

It explains it further

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=94673&mesg_id=96014&page=

[Renew Deal]

89. See posts 75 and 81

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=94673&mesg_id=96014&page=

[janx]

20. So is this from an official Clark website or not?

The URL doesn't tell me much.

"http://www.freepgs.com/clark04"

[Renew Deal]

23. It was posted by another DUer this morning.

I don't know where it came from, but I don't think it's from the Clark campaign.

[janx]

32. Delete (it's not worth it)

.

[janx]

46. That "DUer" signed up yesterday.

Do you see my point here? I think we have to be very careful, in our partisan zeal, not to link to everything we think might discredit another candidate without checking sources.

It was done elsewhere in this thread with a cartoon...one that came from a right-wing site.

The right-wing is out in full force against Dean, and there's probably plenty of anti-Dean material to choose from. Please at least be judicious when choosing the links with which to bash him. It ultimately does Wes Clark no good if you aren't.

Hint: Juvenile photoshop jobs are immediately suspect.

[Renew Deal]

92. I didn't know it was a right wing site.

There was no way to no. It is a free web host. Also the Jesus thing was funny and was not bashing Dean. The Hitler thing was not.

[janx]

111. The "Jesus thing" was most certainly not funny, no matter

what you compare it to.

It was another piece of low-rent, right wing horse shit.

[Renew Deal]

131. There was no way to know that.

But now I do.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=93510

[fjc]

6. Ever notice how eager are so many Christians...

to sit in judgement of the religious sincerity of others? It brings to mind that famous remark of Gandi's, "I love your Christ, but I can't stand your Christians." When you think of it from that perspective, perhaps this is, after all, a "Christian nation."

[KittyWampus]

14. Dean Found A Carpetbag Under His Christmas Tree

and inside was the Baby Jesus... that was on farq and it still makes me laugh. :D

[BootinUp]

16. LOL! n/t

[Cheswick2.0]

51. for someone with your sig lin, that is certainly a strange statement

Did you miss the part in church were we learned we don't get to judge other's faith?

[Duder]

18. This said it all...

'The Lord has just blessed Bush. . . . It doesn't make any difference what he does, good or bad. God picks him up because he's a man of prayer and God's blessing him."

Why on earth does Howard Dean want to compete with that?'

Edit: typo

[Cheswick2.0]

52. Why, do republicans own God?

What competition are you referring to?

[Duder]

60. It's Colbert King's opinion

I just lifted some of the litter from what I consider his bag of garbage here that's passed off as journalism.

[janx]

19. delete (sent to wrong poster)

[killbotfactory]

28. I forgot democrats can't talk about religion

That's an exclusive right held for George "Pious" Bush.

[mouse7]

30. There WP really HATES Dean

The WP doesn't even try to fake a little even-handedness. They just rant away.

[retyred]

33. Self delete, inapproiate image sourse

thank you for the heads up w4rma



retyred in fla
“Good-Night Paul, Wherever You Are”
So I read this book

[w4rma]

38. Here's another cartoon by the folks who did yours, retyred.

http://www.coxandforkum.com/

IMHO, you shouldn't be advertising their crap.

[BootinUp]

43. true

[edzontar]

53. My God--what a stinking, bigoted, Repuke site THAT is...

Any so-called Clark supporter posting from this sinkhole is a Puke troll, for sure....(or else a TOTAL IDIOT)...

DU in 04--a VERY different place, indeed...

[mzmolly]

61. I've noticed a certain lingo here as of late among certain people

who call themselves Democrats/Liberals...I'll say no more except I'm not referring to any one individual. ;)

[janx]

62. It seems to be a trend

around here lately.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

34. "never mentioned his religious views the entire 11 years he was in office"

Where Dean stands depends on where Dean finds himself sitting, and at the moment he thinks he's sitting pretty in the front of the Democratic pack. With the nomination in sight, and facing the prospect of taking on a popular born-again Christian in the White House, Dean figures he needs to start making up to voters who take their religion seriously.

Part of that equation is correct. The polls show that religious values rank high with most voters. And as Alabama Democratic Rep. Artur Davis, an African American, wrote this week in the Democratic Leadership Council's magazine, Blueprint, Republican conservatives have "seized the language of faith, and turned it into a conservative value." Davis observed that a significant number of people, particularly in the South, are people of faith, and they are very open about it. Said Davis: "If we leave faith to the Republican Party, we have lost a very important connection with a lot of people." So there is much to be said in favor of a public figure expressing his or her faith.

Dean's problem is that he's not coming across as being genuine.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A4900-2004Jan9.html





Dean, who recently pledged that he would begin speaking about faith on the campaign trail, is off to a rocky start — and earning a frosty response from the head of the Anti-Defamation League.

The candidate, a Congregationalist whose wife and children are Jewish, began trumpeting his fealty to Jesus around the Christmas holiday in what he acknowledged was a bid to connect with Christian voters in Southern states. Last October, Dean had talked up his Jewish family's background during a meeting with Jewish communal leaders.

Those moves are "patronizing to both communities" and "in poor taste," said ADL national director Abraham Foxman. "You talk to Jews and tell them how Jewish your family is. You talk to Christians in the Bible Belt and tell them how much you love Jesus. We've gone beyond that."

Dean certainly is pushing it. Since he began his God jag, he has likened the Democrats' campaign to Jesus' squabbles with the Pharisees 2,000 years ago, saying the presidential contest "ought to be about evicting the money-changers from the temple" ñ not realizing, perhaps, that the Gospel story and the 'money-changer' disparagement have formed the basis of oh, 1,900-plus years of anti-Jewish polemic. He also flubbed a question asking him to name his favorite book in the New Testament. He named Job, which as we know is part of the Hebrew Bible — known to Christians as the "Old Testament." He later corrected himself.

But Dean is nothing if not ecumenical. The New York Times overheard him channeling his inner Muslim, using the expression "Inshallah" ("God willing"), which is often heard across back fences in Vermont. And at a Chanukah party in New Hampshire, Dean recited the Hebrew blessing over the candles, just as ñ great moments in presidential campaigning — he did impromptu during an interview with the Forward in November 2002.

Foxman, who issued a statement Tuesday "to remind everybody that (religious talk) has limited viability and credibility in an election campaign," said the ground rules are: "there's nothing wrong with being proud" of one's faith, but "it's not a reason to vote for anybody."
http://www.forward.com/issues/2004/04.01.09/news5.campaigncon.html

[Cheswick2.0]

55. Abraham Foxman doesn't speak for me and I find his trying to offensive

I am not offended by Dean's reference to religion. I think the guys a little paranoid. Mentioning Pharisees and money changers who's behavior Jesus objected to is hardly an indictment of Jewish people.
This guy is reaching and I find HIM offensive.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

137. You're offended at someone speaking their mind and stating their opinion?

:wtf:

[Rose Siding]

37. This is just the way they tore into Bush!!!

...when he said God told him to invade Afghanistan and Iraq! And they were WAY harder on him because he had used his faith as an excuse for war, rather than as a way to share more about himself with the people who will be electing a president.

oh, wait...

[CalProf]

59. lol! n/t

[rucky]

39. Sorry, But Faith Does Play a Role in People's Value Systems

sometimes it's used to justify bad values & judgement
sometimes it's used to guide good actions & judgement

Even athiests use their non-faith to guide them. They often tread even more carefully than the faithful, because there's no safety net.

I welcome any offer for a politician to discuss their faith. That way I know where they're coming from: It'll either warn me away from them, or attract me to them, but I listen to those types of statements very carefully.

[jujube2]

49. I don't know if that's true, personally

I believe in "natural law" from which morality is derived. Religion only states these laws that we all inately know.

Familty tradition and upbringing also plays a role in values, but I wouldn't say that it varies that greatly with or without a religious element to it.

[goodhue]

58. "Even athiests use their non-faith to guide them."

Don't think that's true. And I'm saying that as a lifelong non-Christian who may or may not be an atheist depending on my mood.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

139. Yeah, what a silly statement.

I am guided by the fact that I don't believe in little green men from Mars, or the tooth fairy, or an all-powerful, all-knowing being who controls everything, but for some odd reason hasn't seen fit to announce it's presence for a couple thousand years. OK.

[Ramsey]

47. The perspective of a private practitioner of religion

I can understand where Dean is coming from, when he says he isn't comfortable or used to talking about religion publicly. I grew up as an Episcopalian. My family and neighbors attended church, often very sporadically, but religion was not out in the open like it is in some other faiths. We don't run around saying "praise the lord" and "bless you" all the time. To us, one's religious faith is considered a private thing, a personal relationship with the deity, and church is simply a place to gather to remind yourself of that. I also don't believe one's attendance record at church is an arbiter of the depth of one's faith. It's what you do and how you live your life and how you treat others and your moral beliefs that define your faith.

Speaking of the role of religion in the life of North easterners, Middlebury College political scientist Eric Davis said: "Part of the culture about this part of the country is religion is a private matter and what people do or don't do about religion is their own private business".

Now Dean is saying that the people in some parts of the country see this issue differently and are more open about their faith and beliefs. What Dean has said is NOT that he has "found Jesus", but that if people ask him about his faith, he will talk about it, even though he isn't accustomed to doing so.

From the Washington Post: "I am not used to wearing religion on my sleeve and being open about it," the former Vermont governor told reporters aboard his campaign plane. "I am gradually getting more comfortable to talk about religion in ways I did not talk about it before." Dean said frequent trips to Bible Belt states such as South Carolina, where evangelical Christianity flourishes often in public ways, are prompting him to more candidly discuss his faith. "It does not make me more religious or less religious than before. It just means I am more comfortable talking about it in different ways," he said.

King's article is just another of so many hack-jobs on Dean lately, and I am sure we will see more. But once again, rather than actually look at what Dean has said himself, many DUers simply jump on the anti-Dean bandwagon. The reporter claims that because Dean hasn't spoken openly about his religion in the past and doesn't regularly attend church, that he couldn't possibly have any depth to his faith, and therefore he must now be pretending to have any religious beliefs solely for political reasons. That premise is patently offensive to those of us who practice in the same way Dean does. Do I have to have to wear a big cross on my neck and scream "Praise Jesus" to have deeply held beliefs? Personally, I don't think so.

What quotes from Dean himself are offered up in the article to justify this tirade? I only see two direct statements from Dean mentioned. In reference to people in South Carolina: "The people there are pretty openly religious." And: "We have got to stop having the campaigns run in this country based on abortion, guns, God and gays". Hell, the author gives Pat Robertson's prediction that God has told him Bush will win more space.

Furthermore, there are a number of misstatements or misinterpretations in the article. For example, here's what Dean actually said about his civil unions decision: "My view of Christianity . . . is that the hallmark of being a Christian is to reach out to people who have been left behind. So I think there was a religious aspect to my decision to support civil unions." That is a viewpoint, from a religious point of view, that I can wholly support and empathize with. Dean openly admits he has kept his private beliefs out of his public conversation until recently. Does that therefore mean these beliefs did not exist?


I wonder, do we really want a candidate who is not willing to listen to people and answer their honest questions, just because those questions were not asked of him in the past?

[janx]

50. Very good summary.

Some people, myself included, believe that their faith is a private matter.

[edzontar]

54. Attacking candidates over their faith is the lowest

Form of human filth.

[pacifictiger]

56. The Interfaith Alliance

has just announced they have interviewed all presidential candidates (except Bush and Sharpton who have not yet responded to their request) regarding issues surrounding faith and politics. I have not looked at any of them yet, but they can be accessed at http://www.interfaithalliance.org/Election2004/Election2004List.cfm?c=88

Here is a copy of an email I received from them this morning.


Religion and The Presidential Election:

Presidential Candidates Talk To The Interfaith Alliance About Their Faith and Its Impact on Their Political Life
(Washington) -- With religion becoming a predominant theme in the 2004 presidential elections, The Interfaith Alliance (TIA) announced today the release of the first segment of their video interviews with eight of the nine 2004 Democratic candidates for President. The TIA Video Questionnaire focuses on the candidate's personal views on faith, how those views impact policy-making and where each candidate stands on issues related to religious pluralism and religious liberty.
"Religion is already playing an unusually high-profile role in the 2004 presidential campaign, and issues of faith will continue to be at the forefront of a national dialogue," said Rev. C. Welton Gaddy, president of The Interfaith Alliance national organization. "We need to know where each candidate stands on crucial issues such as religious liberty and pluralism, the use of religious rhetoric and how one's faith impacts public policy-making. These personal interviews offer a valuable insight into how the candidates view faith and its intersection with politics and their quest for elected office."

In videotaped interviews, the candidates candidly reveal their views on religion and politics, including:

· Their own personal faith and religious background;

· Instances in which their personal faith and values impacted public policy decisions;

· How they would balance dictates of their faith with constitutional responsibilities as President;

· The role of religious liberty and separation of church and state in the founding of America;

· Faith-based initiatives;

· Why is the Republican Party viewed as the party of faith and morality?

As part of TIA's election year program, "One Nation. Many Faiths. Vote 2004," the video, audio, and text transcripts of the interviews are now on the website:

www.interfaithalliance.org/electionsvideo.

Transcripts of additional questions and answers will be released on January 13th and January 16th.

The candidates interviewed are Gen. Wesley Clark, Gov. Howard Dean, Sen. John Edwards, Rep. Richard Gephardt, Sen. John Kerry, Rep. Dennis Kucinich, Sen. Joseph Lieberman, and Ambassador Carol Moseley-Braun.

President George W. Bush and Rev. Al Sharpton were invited to be interviewed but, to date, have not accepted. "We look forward to adding their perspectives on these issues, " Gaddy said.

He went on to say, "Religion should be a prophetic voice for inclusion--calling people of all religions, as well as those who affirm no religion, to cast a vote informed by both politics and religion, consistent with the core values of our democracy and our faith."

--30--


Founded in 1994, The Interfaith Alliance (TIA) is a non-partisan, clergy-led grassroots organization dedicated to promote the positive and healing role of religion in the life of the nation and challenging those who manipulate religion to promote a narrow, divisive agenda. With more than 150,000 members drawn from over 70 faith traditions, 47 local Alliances and a national network of religious leaders, TIA promotes compassion, civility and mutual respect for human dignity in our increasingly diverse society.

[chimpymustgo]

57. And that makes a candidate appealing to voters over their faith

exactly what?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

140. Dean isn't being attacked for faith or lack of faith, but for pandering.

Again.

[mzmolly]

64. Good for Dean. I am glad he's taking back Jesus from the RW

They twist the meaning of Christ time and again. Wether your a Christian or not, it's plain as day!

I do know many Non-Christians who fully respect people who have differences *in matters of faith*

The hi-jacking of Jesus by the RW needs to be addressed. You can't address that, with out first making your faith known.

GO DEAN!

[Eric J in MN]

74. I agree that the rightwingers shouldn't be allowed to claim religon for

I agree that the rightwingers shouldn't be allowed to claim religon for themselves only.

Just like Bill Clinton refused to let the rightwing control "family values," Howard Dean is emphasizing that Jesus "sought out the disenfranchised."

[mzmolly]

79. Right, the RW has made it appear that they are Godly and Dems are not.

so in essence, we have to choose between our God and our Party? :eyes:

[Clark4VotingRights]

138. This is another one of those non issues against Dean IMO.

He's explained over and over that Southerners speak more openly
about their faith than Northerners, so it makes sense to know
his audience. I haven't heard Dean say anything remotely
evangelical.

And any candidate that doesn't know his audience/address his audience's interests, is not being very respectful, and won't succeed.

Clark has used different rhetoric in the South, and I applaud him for it. He's addressed black voter disenfranchisement even more than
he has in the North. He's addressed how the criminal justice
system victimizes young black poor men. How it brands them as felons and strips them of their voting rights (usually Dem...).
He knows his audience.

Their both being sensitive and savvy.

Oh, and the Washington Post is a rag.
Right up/down there with the NY Times.

[thebigthink]

141. You don't suppose...

...that he's trying to wangle an endorsement from Jesus...

;-)

[snyttri]

142. Confusing the New Testament with the Old can't be good, or easy for

those who care about the Bible to forget.

Very funny coulumn