Bush's Debate Face: A Silent Dean Scream?

[DrFunkenstein]

Does anyone else think that Bush's look of offended entitlement will become one of the lasting images of the election? It was the first time since 9/11 that someone had burst the boy's bubble, and Bush clearly wasn't ready for someone to not kiss his monarchical ass.

I've read 'irritated' and 'annoyed' alot in the press since the debates, but I think the expression was something closer to 'how dare you, impetuous whelp!?!'

I think every comment Bush makes on foreign policy/security will end with an asterix signifying that he had his ass handed to him on his strongest issue.

I've just read that Kerry's strategy is to move on to domestic issues while Bush's strategy is dig deeper into Kerry's foreign policy credibility. Does anyone else see victory in this formulation? If Bush seemed like a one-trick pony at the debates, this strategy only reinforces that image, while strengthening the perception that Kerry is the man to turn to for kitchen table issues.

I think the entire momentum of the election has shifted, and somehow it all comes back to how unsteady, how unresolute Bush appeared in the cut-away shots. Kerry can move on, Bush has to play catch up on his best issue.

I think we are going to win this thing. Not a blow out, but between 5-10%.

If you don't believe me, read this article. I think the writing is upon the wall, the tea leaves at the bottom of the cup.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1802&e=5&u=/washpost/20041003/ts_washpost/a2925_2004oct2

[MexedMissage]

1. Are the cut-away shots allowed in the next two debates?

Or did Rove/Baker put the kibosh on them...I don't expect they'll allow them again if they have ANY say in the matter.

I hope they're covered by the rules for all three debates.

[dogtag]

3. They didn't 'allow' them this time around, but

there's not much they can do about it since the networks don't sign the debate agreement and can do whatever they want. I'm sure if they could stop the cutaways, they would.

[VOX]

20. And it's ironic that the camera-feed came from Faux, of all things...

With those reaction shots, Faux did as much damage to their figurehead as he did with his sorry show at the podium.

[trogdor]

25. They can't.

In order to do one face at a time without panning a single camera (very awkward, like home video), you need two cameras, one for Kerry, and one for Bush. Since the media were not signatories to the debate MOI, they felt free to do whatever they wanted with the two camera feeds, including running them concurrently, as C-SPAN did.

[ProfessorPlum]

4. They weren't "allowed" in the first debate

It will be interesting to see how far off the reservation the networks are allowed to go, or if they will be threatened effectively by the 'thugs.

It won't matter much though - Chimpy seemed as petulant during his answers as during Kerry's.

[IIgnoreNobody]

7. They are not allowed in the agreement between the campaigns.

But the networks are not parties to that agreement.

[ProfessorPlum]

2. He doesn't really want the job for another four years

He's tired of being the puppet for his crony corporatists. Presidentin' is hard work. Plus, more time to sleep, more time for the GameBoy - losing is looking really good to him right now.

Plus, all of that debate prep is a pain in the ass!

It's really hard for him to fill 2 minute responses with 20 seconds worth of sound bites.

Seriously, the GOP's real disdain for their opponents shone through loud and clear. Too bad that doesn't play well for the masses.


And what will Bush do when his audiences aren't asking him questions like "Mr. President, how did you become so wonderful?"*


*Sorry, I stole that one.

[hippiechick]

16. I agree.

The man has never finished anything he's started - always mucks it up and leaves a mess for someone else to fix.

The economy, Iraq, et al will be 100% the same.

I don't envy Kerry, actually, considering the scope of the distaster he's going to inherit next month.


:hippie:

[Jacobin]

47. I think you are right

Come to think of it, who would want to try to undo the BushQuagmire in IraqNam. Like riding a tiger, can't stay on and you can't get off.

Kerry's gonna have his hands full, that's for sure, straightening out the crazy shit he has done to the world, the insults, slights and stupidity.

I think Smirk's worst nightmare is getting re-selected and trying to cover up his screw ups for four more years. His second worst nightmare is following in defeat like Poppy

[mzmolly]

5. Well you'd need mass media cooperation, and that we don't have.

Dean's scream was altered and played a thousand times.

Bush's "Deer in the headlights" moments are being downplayed by the media ... that's the fundamental difference.

[madfloridian]

11. Twice now Dean and Bush have been compared...last 24 hours.

I wonder why that is being done? :shrug:

[mzmolly]

17. I think people hope that the media will help take down Bush like they

did Dean because of an akward moment.

I don't think people understand the media want's a Bush Presidency, they didn't want a Dean Presidency.

[madfloridian]

19. I would like to think that.

I am glad you do.

[Cha]

51. I know you've seen this madflor...Or maybe not..

"Dean's outstanding on Russert"

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/10/3/115810/894

And this thread is good too talking about Dean and Clark as "National Treasures"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x963671

[AntiCoup2K4]

27. Actually, this is at least the THIRD such thread that I've seen

And as I said in the first one, it's clear when the same old Dean bashers come out of the woodwork who it is that "can't get over it".

And on the subject matter (as long as I'm here) there's really no comparison between Junior's dumbass facial expressions and the "Dean scream".

The "scream" was an electronically exaggerated one time event. Junior's dumb faces are an every day occurance, as is documented by damn near every photograph of the moron that I've seen in the last three years.

[Cha]

49. EXACTLY! b ush's

ARROGANT SMIRKS are self-inflicted...


Dean's "Scream"..was media induced..HUGE DIFFERENCE..

And the media wants bush to win and they didn't want Dean..he had vowed to BREAK THEM UP!

Just like Kerry is doing! And Kerry's going to win and BREAK THEM UP!:)

Viva Dean & Kerry! :kick:

[cali]

6. Hi, Dr. Funk.

and Prof Plum. I don't know if either of you remember me, I used to post as Clar. Good to see you're both still here.

And no, I don't think it'll quite rise to the scream, but it sure was a step in that direction.

[ProfessorPlum]

8. Hi Clar!

I think of it as more of a "Gore's sighs" or "Bush I looks at his watch". Though those were invented by the media after the fact.

To my delight, Chimpy's abysmal performance was obvious to me in real time. Maybe more of a "Ford thinks there are no Soviets in Eastern Europe" kind of event.

[MallRat]

9. I have dibs on ImpetuousWhelp.com!!!

:-)

[Libby2]

10. Sadly no

It was much worse than the Dean scream....much.

But it won't get the airplay that scream got.

I will never ever forgive the media for what they have become.
They help destroy opportunities for some wonderful men, with their 10 second replays.

People are brainwashed.

[maine_raptor]

12. Images are always more powerful than words.

In the second debate, the cut-away shots will be unavoidable. All Kerry has to do is position himself between the camera and Bush, but in my opinion there are two other factors that will come into play during the second debate.

1) Questions will come from the audience and while, as I understand, vetted in some manner they will be somewhat spontaneous. Kerry thinks fast on his feet, Bush does not. And while he can recite "talking points", the particular "Point" he uses to answer the question may not answer the question exactly (Remember this is domestic policy, not one of Bush's strong suits). Do that a few times, along with Kerry nailing the question (and criticizing Bush's policies in the process) as a contrast and you end up with something that could become very uncomfortable to George. (Maybe a few more sour faces?).

2) Mannerisms: Bush is awkward, with his arms spread and that bow-legged shuffle thing he does. Kerry by contrast is smooth, relaxed and as that article in today's NY Times shows (sorry no link - on Kerry in Ohio), very charismatic in a "town hall" setting. That does not bode well for Karl's Little Man.

So to sum up, yes the "pic of the campaign" will come from the debates, I just think we have not seen it yet.

On Edit: Landslide, Yes, 10-15%, Naw 7-8% :D :bounce:

[girl gone mad]

13. I rreally got flamed yesterday for saying as much.

The Dean scream was largely, if not entirely, an invention of the media, but it signified a turning point. It put the Dean campaign further on the defensive and took some wind out of their sails.

Bush will have to struggle now against a public image that is wholly unpresidential. It won't get the kind of media play that Dean's "scream" got, so it will be up to us to remind people somehow.

[madfloridian]

15. You did not get flamed. Many just wondered why.

Is Dean making that much difference, that he needs to be marginalized here all over again? It is the same people over and over who do this, and it is a little obvious now.

[Francine Frensky]

18. I think you are taking this the wrong way... the point is that

while Dean's momentary lapse (and yes, it really was a lapse, to show that much raw emotion) was played over and over and over again in the media, and became a joke and ultimately made Dean a joke..... the point is that it was a 3-second mistake.

Versus:

Bush just made a 90-minute mistake, and it was in prime time and it was at a moment when 60 million people saw it.

And now, if bush's faces were to get as much airtime as dean's scream, this whole election would be over.

But, I'm afraid they won't.

[madfloridian]

23. Perhaps a little overkill? Read this.

Read this from yesterday.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=958211

[Upfront]

33. What Lapse?

Dean was shouting to be heard in a room full of yelling young supporters, much like a pep rally. They had a directional mike on him him which did not allow room noise to be heard out over the TV transmission. It looked out of place because of that. One other thing, Dean was having a good time, B### was not. I to am tired of the now and again shots at Dean. No one has worked harder for Kerry. It makes me proud to support him. Kerry is no longer ABBB for me, I can,and do,look forward to voting for him for the 1st time. When he finely said he would not have gone to war knowing what he knows now he brought me on board. I think Kerry is a good man and I know Dean is.

[madfloridian]

36. Amen, upfront.

:hi:

[Kahuna]

50. I think as * supporters mull over their support for the next few

weeks, a lot of them will come to the conclusion that something about * just isn't right. I hope a good five percent of them will stay home. Thus, assuring a victory for us! :D

[madfloridian]

14. This is a shame, really.

It is the same folks who feel the need to do this. Most of us are trying to work with the party, support Kerry, and win the election.

When I see posts like this I feel like it just doesn't matter.

Comparing Bush and Dean is the ultimate insult to us, and I think it is being done on purpose. So be it. Go ahead.

[girl gone mad]

26. No one is comparing Bush to Dean.

I certainly was not.

The comparison is between events that signified a change in perception of the candidates. Of course, the Dean scream was manufactured, but it really did result in a shift in the way Dean was percieved (unfortunately).

[madfloridian]

29. Of course you are.

Yes, and your thread yesterday did the same. Let's keep this kicked and continue the discussion. Then we don't have to have more threads on it.

[donheld]

21. More like a Tammy Fae Cry

:evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin:

[LoZoccolo]

22. What's funny is if he /doesn't/ do this at the next one...

...then it'll be even funnier because people will talk about how his campaign probably coached him on how to look during his pauses!

[yellowcanine]

34. If he gets too much coaching he is likely to develop a tic from the

pressure.

[demokatgurrl]

24. As I said elsewhere, if Rove is smart

he'll get Bush a botox injection for the next debate.

[madfloridian]

28. Big bump for this.

:kick:

[LSdemocrat]

30. Only if the media shows the images about 3 billion times by election day

[cheshire]

31. I laugh thinking about * acting like a king or dictater. I want to slap

him upside his head like a smart ass teen. I never did that with my kids because I raised them to respect others. * is so full of him- self. And himself is well shit.

[madfloridian]

32. Bump so we can compare Dean/Bush again.

:kick:

I find it so offensive to compare Bush's ignorance with Howard Dean's passion, that I think we should keep discussing this.

By the time we are through, Kerry will be elected because Howard Dean has clarified so many of his positions for him. Like the global test. Like his stance on the war.

[molly]

35. Look at those pointy ears - spear nose - cold eyes

who would vote for the devil?

[madfloridian]

37. Let's keep this up for discussion.

I really would like to hear discussion of Bush's ignorance and how comparing him with Dean is ok.

[Vanje]

38. My favorite descriptives...

...heard on network media were:
Cranky,Peevish, and Confused

[Kahuna]

45. My favorite description: "The word I'd use starts with a 'P' but

I won't say it here." It was said by either Roger Simon or Ron Brownstein on Tweety's show yesterday. My guess is the word he would use was, "pissy."

[DrFunkenstein]

39. Yeah, What I Really Want To Do Is Dig At Dean

It takes some creatively logic to imagine that I posted this to insult Dean people here (and make Kerry seem better?). It is utterly ridiculous (I can't believe I actually have to say this) that I am somehow suggesting that Bush's actual performance was anything like Dean's actual performance.

Let me be perfectly clear: The point of the thread was to suggest that the lazy-ass media quickly become fixated on singular clips that can get repeated ad nauseum as a shortcut for actual reportage - let alone real journalism. The 'Dean moment' was an example of the media at their laziest and most snide, taking the 'Dean scream' (yes, yes, I know that the sound mixing was radically altered for nefarious effect) as a window into the soul of a politician.

It was about comparing two instances of lazy media, not the two performers themselves. If you'd like to continue this as a debate over my 'true intentions,' my insatiable need to put down Howard Dean, then enjoy yourself. People know that he was not my first choice, nor my second, nor my third (I wanted both Wes Clark and John Edwards before Dean), but I am not the kind of person that kicks people when they're down - especially when you are one of the most effective surrogates out there, for Pete's sake!

And, truth be known, I would love for the media to run with the idea that debate was Bush's 'Dean Scream' - which would be disastrous for the GOP Machiavellian-in-Chief. And, I apologize that it would happen on the back of a fine politician, but I think that Dean with his self-effacing humor would be fine with it if it helped take down Bush.

[HalfManHalfBiscuit]

40. Some people are just too touchy about Dean

Your point was about the media and the scream was just a good example of media laziness.

We all know Dean has worked his ass off for Kerry and it is greatly apreciated.

[madfloridian]

42. Baloney.

When it is done over and over and over, in subtle ways that some do not catch....then touchy is ok.

The point about the media could be made without having 2 or 3 posts a day about the scream.

[Kahuna]

48. C'mon, Mad. Lighten up. I'm sure that no offense was meant to

Dean or his supporters. :hug: The issue is how the media made so much of the scream. And if bush's "strange" behavior deserves the same media fixation. I know that the scream is a sore issue for you. Gore's sighs are a sore issue for me. But, they did happen. And even though it was unfair for our guys to be judged solely by those few moments, they were. By the same token, shouldn't bush get the same scrutiny? THAT'S the issue.

[madfloridian]

52. The scream did not bother me.

I knew why that evening happened.

He had already lost by then, and he well knew it...so did we. I have some things I could post, but it is not acceptable right now to me to be that way.

He says in his book that only time will tell whether some issues will keep him from being elected. He knows what was done to him well before the scream.

It is best to not give the impression of using the scream to get back at folks for the primaries. If it is not being used that way, then I say great. I will fall all over myself apologizing.

It is very hard keeping some folks on board for Kerry right now. I know because it is that way locally as well. The oddest part is that a lot of us locally have noticed that is the Clark people working with the DFA folks to keep the local Dems from turning Republican.

On the internet, something happened. It is the opposite. It needs to stop.

[madfloridian]

41. Dean's scream, Gore's sigh.....what a loss to our country.

It is too bad really. There is an article up today about some guy who "scripts" our candidates on just how to look and speak.

Of course we are aware the media did it. We are also aware of the high number of reminders here from the same group of folks.

I treasure Dean's scream, I wanted to scream myself...so did my husband.

Our own party brought down a good man because he allowed a civil unions bill and was thus declared unelectable by the powers that be.

Our own party brought down a good man because he had discovered a new way of funding a campaign...grassroots.

And all that was BEFORE the scream. No wonder he screamed. But he was smiling. Comparing him with Bush in anyway is insulting.

Pardon my skepticism....if it were not the same ones all the time I would not be that way.

[Kahuna]

43. bush's smirks are the equivalent of Dean's scream and Gore's sighs..

Since he benefited from Gore's sighs, he should be penalized for his own bad behavior. OFF WITH HIS HEAD!! :D

[GoneOffShore]

44. According to Jon Stewart

most politicians today are so NOT used to being challenged that when they are, they completely lose it.
That's one of the things that I think happened to * on Thursday.
And if anyone here is old enough (as I am) to remember the Nixon-Kennedy debates, Thursday was an eerie, but good reminder of them.
Buh bye Bush.

[madfloridian]

46. Same folks do this.

Have your fun. I guess it is more fun than trying to bring folks together.

[Supersedeas]

53. the look of offended entitlement (fits)