I consider myself insulted again by the DLC.....this is unnecessary.

[madfloridian]

This was written by Marshall Wittman, a McCain campaign aide. To put this in the DLC Blueprint is an insult to all who supported Howard Dean, and to the Howard Dean himself. He is not exactly complimentary of Kerry either. We do not need this bunch pulling us to the far right.

http://www.ndol.org/print.cfm?contentid=252914

So what does the Bull Moose think of the donkey? In the early primaries, I thought Karl Rove had induced a mass brainwashing of the Democrats as they flocked to Howard Dean. If the Deaniacs had seized the party, the Bush-Rovian dream of realignment might have been realized. Dean was their dream opponent -- a socially liberal, anti-war candidate from Vermont. However, the good centrist sense of the Democratic rank and file prevailed.

This Bull Moose is not all the way with Kerry, but part of the way with JFK. I am generally to Kerry's right. However, on the key issues of progressive economics and a muscular and smart foreign policy, John Kerry's ideas are far preferable to George W. Bush's. And, with his gesture this summer in approaching McCain about the vice presidency, Kerry demonstrated that he is committed to a new politics of national unity....."

Howard Dean makes it clear in the book that this argument that we won is bogus! Clinton won, Dean says, because he was a great politician, not because he was a centrist. BTW, we lost congress, didn't we?

How does the DLC get away with claiming how much we WON by going RIGHT?

Necessary statement: My husband and I, and all of our DFA group here, have donated to Kerry and will vote for him.

[cally]

OK..who do we contact and complain to

This is stupid and we need to respond. I was a Clark supporter but I know this is crazy.

[sangh0]

1. True

How dare someone disagree with you!!

How does the DLC get away with claiming how much we WON by going RIGHT?

"Going right" was what many Dean supporters said Kerry was doing when he voted for IWR. Now, you don't like it when that's brought back up.

[madfloridian]

12. We lost congress. Gore did not get to be president.

We lost congress more in 2002? Besides Clinton....who won?

[sangh0]

44. Take a deep breath

and maybe then, you can explain what that has to do with this

[madfloridian]

51. Can you say "mass brainwashing". Can you say DLC lost?

They did not win, and they are claiming to by saying centrism is winning. That is baloney.

I resent very much the way you say:
"How dare someone disagree with you!!"

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

89. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

91. Deleted message

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[GOPBasher]

2. I agree, that's an absurd piece.

I think there were a few issues we needed to go right on, such as welfare reform and the death penalty. But on everything else -- education, health care, minimum wage, environment, etc. -- I really think the nation leans left.

[pmbryant]

3. Wittman is a Republican and is pro-Kerry

Or at least he used to be a Republican. (He appears to be officially an independent now.) It is great that he is supporting Kerry, and is on our side, helping us to defeat Bush.

EDIT: I don't understand the complaint against him. Do you reasonably expect former Republicans to be complimentary to everything Democratic?

--Peter

[madfloridian]

7. He can support Kerry, sort of, his words...without insulting us!

Sorry but that is the truth. I am furious over this. I am a lifelong Democrat, a moderate, and I am damn tired of being insulted.

[pmbryant]

11. I don't understand where the insult is.

All he is saying is that he thinks the Bushies would have preferred to run against Dean. I think that is true. (It doesn't mean Dean wouldn't have won; it just means the Bushies and the GOP, in their simple, narrow world view, would have preferred him as an opponent. I think that is a simple fact, as misguided as that opinion may have been.)

--Peter

[madfloridian]

13. Excuse me, but "mass brainwashing" is an insult .

It really is.

[pmbryant]

28. I suppose so. :-)

I missed that phrase. But this guy is a former Republican, remember. Still not a Democrat. Coming from a person with that history, I don't think of it as an insult, but as a colorful statement of political differences.

I think it is fabulous that he is on our side now. I hope we can tolerate some colorful, perhaps insensitive, phrases, if we can thus enlarge the coalition to oust Bush.

--Peter

[madfloridian]

31. But he is writing it on a Democratic party site.

That makes it more serious. I like some of the things he has to say in the article, especially about Ralph Reed. But the DLC could have done without the brainwashing paragraph.

[pmbryant]

74. DLC is just a wing of the party, not the party itself

As RogueTrooper said in a different post below: "The DLC are yesterday's men."

--Peter

[sangh0]

77. I wouldn't expect the RNC to publish

an article by a repuke explaining why he will vote for Kerry.

[el_gato]

82. I also wouldn't expect them to publish articles trashing other repubs

So why does a supposed democratic group spend so much time trashing some of the most important people in the Democratic Party today?

[sangh0]

85. Think again

Dean's group has trashed other Dems. All of the Dems do it. But I guess you never heard of "the circular firing squad"

You're the only one on DU.

[el_gato]

You are very confused

Show me where the RNC has posted articles trashing fellow republicans.

Or better yet articles published by the RNC by Democrats trashing Republicans.

[sangh0]

95. You are very confused

We are talking about Democrats, not repukes. Maybe you haven't noticed (the way you didn't notice the article was written by a repuke, not a DLCer) but there is a difference between D's and r's

[el_gato]

104. Who published the article?

DOH!

The DLC has consistently attacked grassroots efforts in the Democratic Party because they don't want our input.

[sangh0]

110. Changing your argument?

You claimed that Dems don't attack each other. Once I made it clear you were mistaken, you try to distract from your fumble by asking another question.

[Name removed]

115. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sangh0]

119. You have no answer, so you curse

Earlier, you said

So why does a supposed democratic group spend so much time trashing some of the most important people in the Democratic Party today?

You don't seem to realize this happens all the time in the DNC. Sharpton did it to Dean. You think Sharpton is DLC?

[el_gato]

125. Review the thread sangho

go back and re-read the thread.


You are making excuses for the DLC trashing other Democrats because they don't follow the corporatist line.

You can have your beloved DLC-republican gang.

I'll take a real Democrat over them anyday.

[sangh0]

128. Do you think Sharpton is DLC?

I noticed that this was another question you are trying to avoid answering.

[sangh0]

135. el_gato?? Where'd ya go?

.

[el_gato]

136. I will leave you to your beloved corporate phonies

You bore me with your efforts to defend republican scumbags posing as democrats.

You can have them, I'll take Howard Dean.

[sangh0]

138. So you're choking?

I'm not surprised

[el_gato]

145. Until you answer my question in post 82 I'm done with you

As well this entire thread is just you defending a group that hates grass roots democracy.

[Name removed]

150. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[el_gato]

154. Whatever, You're not even making sense anymore

This entire thread is nothing but you defending the DLC and thier efforts to trash other democrats.

[sangh0]

155. So you have no links, so you choke and curse

Is Sharpton DLC?

Was 22 million new jobs a Bad Thing?

[el_gato]

157. Link?

Show me your 22 million jobs.

An emerging industry namely the computing industry was responsible for the jobs during the Clinton years not NAFTA.

As well, NAFTA was a product of the Bush Sr. Admin.
It doesn't surprise me that you support it.

And we have done nothing but hemmorage jobs over the past several years and continue to do so every day.

[el_gato]

158. Making shit up does not make it true sangho

[sangh0]

165. That's why I asked for a link

which you still haven't done.

[T Town Jake]

196. Just because they might not want YOUR input gato...

...doesn't mean they don't want any grassroots input. You don't speak for everyone at the "grassroots," or even at DU for that matter.

[UpsideDownFlag]

180. well, it's good to know i'm not alone in my loathing for the DLC.

after getting flamed the other day for my DLC poll, i felt a little lonely for a while.

[T Town Jake]

198. You got mass-flamed for something you posted? Well...

...maybe it'll give you a little appreciation for what those RKBA'ers in the Gungeon you so like to disdain & deride have to put up with.

[UpsideDownFlag]

222. maybe you should go to the gungeon and read my post near the

top of the page.

thanks.

:wtf:

[el_gato]

78. the right wing, i.e. corporate tools

[Upfront]

193. Hope Your Right

Should Kerry lose, got help the Democratic party. They will be split forever, and people like this speaking for the DLC is the main reason. Rethug lite comes to mind in a hurry. Could not agree more with you Mad Fl., this is total bull shit, and why I will never, and I do mean never will give the DLC another dime.

[KoKo]

37. Well! WTF lets just bring the whole damned Repug Party that isn't tied

to DeLay over and welcome them in and kiss their cheeks and say "Go for It!" We know you won't support us or vote with us....but we just love you to go around talking about us and making nicey nice about how you just can't support "some" of Bush's policies so you'll cross over just this once....:nuke: :puke:

[JI7]

49. people choose to go where they want , they aren't invited in a Democracy

[mimitabby]

182. well, if our brains are washed..

how do you describe all the ninnies who watch faux?
brain addled? brain soiled?

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

4. Two things

You're right about Clinton being an amazing politician being the source of his victory, not his policies.

It's incorrect to suggest Dean lost because he was "too far left". Dean lost because people realized you can't be effective being angry and hammering for a full year and expect to have people keep listening to you all the way to the ballot boxes. Dean was not pragmatic in his campaign approach. Kerry is, and it's that very pragmatism that has us in position for a landslide victory right now.

[madfloridian]

5. Here is their bragging statement on their conquest of Wittmann

http://www.ndol.org/ndol_ci.cfm?kaid=131&subid=192&contentid=252921
Escape from the Elephant House.

Hell, they can brag, but they do not have to insult all of us Deaniacs.

Oh, hell, now I really can not wait until after the election to take this country back from these men.

[WilliamPitt]

6. You're insulted by a Republican characherization of Dean and the DLC?

Stop the presses.

[madfloridian]

8. It is from the DLC website, Will Pitt.

They do not need to print that article right now. Our group of DFA folks here are the heart of the party, which is finally waking up.

Dean is on the road every day keeping folks from slipping away from Kerry.

Shame on them, and on you if you think it is ok to insult so many fellow democrats.

[JI7]

14. i'm a Dem and i'm not insulted, especially since he is a Republican

[madfloridian]

17. I am the one he accused of being "mass brainwashed."

I really really care.

[pmbryant]

23. (Replied in wrong place)

Oops.

[sangh0]

45. I have a hunch

that the repuke doesn't even know who you are.

[madfloridian]

52. You do not need to do this all the time, sangh0.

It is getting obvious.

[sangh0]

56. But I do

Honesty isn't a part-time occupation.

[el_gato]

58. Nonsense

Pointing out irrelevant bullshit is not equal to "being honest"

Your just trying to score stupid rhetorical points.

[sangh0]

62. So the subject line of a thread is "irrelevant"??

I would have never guessed

[el_gato]

66. Your take on it is.

That person that doesn't know you either, does it matter? NO.

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[el_gato]

I'll make if very very simple for you

You came off with a non-sequiter about how the person that wrote the article does not even know the poster. I pointed out to you that your statement is irrelevent and I said the writer does not know you either.

Understand? If not I suggest you get some remedial help.

[sangh0]

90. "I said the writer does not know you either."

That's why no one should be insulted by this piece.

You came off with a non-sequiter about how the person that wrote the article does not even know the poster

Not a non-sequitor. The OP's subject line states that MF is "insulted" even though the author doesn't even know that MF exists.

[el_gato]

96. Whatever you need to tell yourself

If that's what you need to do to justify your support for an organization that spends it's time trashing democrats.

[sangh0]

102. Whatever you need to tell yourself

If that's what you need to justify your belief that you can read my mind and know what I think of the DLC, then go for it.

[el_gato]

112. I've read your posts for probably a year now

or however long you've been here.


It's not like your coming out of the blue.

[sangh0]

117. You didn't read the article, and you havent read/understood my posts

If you did, you wouldn't say I'm a supporter of the DLC.

I just don't think they are important. Their glory days have past.

[el_gato]

120. Then why are you defending them?

[sangh0]

122. Link?

Please post a link to any post of mine where I praise and/or defend the DLC.

[sangh0]

el_gato?? Where'd ya go?

.

[sangh0]

137. el_gato?? Where'd ya go?

.

[Name removed]

159. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sangh0]

167. No link?

I guess asking the loony left for facts is a pretty laughable request.

[WilliamPitt]

16. My bad

Still, after all this time, I'm surprised you'd let the DLC get under your skin. They are what they are.

[KoKo]

27. Nevermind................

[AntiCoup2K4]

46. Yes. they are what they are

..and they are REPUBLICANS :grr:

[el_gato]

50. The DLC corporatists are bad for the Democratic Party

It does not surprise me they are publishing the rantings of a moronic republican since the DLC is about as republican as you can get without being officially Republican.

[pmbryant]

67. This fellow, Wittman, is absolutely not a "moronic Republican"

First, he is no moron. Second, he is now an independent.

Third, he is no "corporatist" either. Amongst the principal reasons why he left the Republicans were their love of corporate welfare and their lopsided tax giveaways to the wealthy.

--Peter

[sangh0]

73. Nice to see that some DUer's read the article

Not coincidentally, it's the ones who are criticizing the article who think it's the DLC's position, and that the writer is a bush* corporate repuke, even though the author starts out by identifying himself as a "Bull Moose"

I bet the critics missed the significance of that.

[madfloridian]

107. BUT he had to do the Dean insult thing.

That is DLC all the way.

[madfloridian]

He is a senior DLC fellow now.

Read the article about him I posted.

[sangh0]

113. "Sr Fellow" means "Nobody important"

.

[el_gato]

148. Do you really believe that?

Wow!

[sangh0]

151. Is Sharpton DLC?

Do you think 22 million new jobs is a Bad Thing?

[Name removed]

156. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sangh0]

169. Is Sharpton DLC?

Are you still dounting that Clinton created 22 million jobs?

Stay on the crack

[demwing]

41. Self deleted

Because I didn't read far enough... Sorry :)

[WI_DEM]

9. The DLC

has lost whatever relevancy it might have originally had. As a Dean supporter I'm insulted by it as well. As a Democrat I'm insulted by it. We should be coming together rather than dividing us. I wouldn't mind seeing the DLC being put out of business.

[blm]

10. Doesn't anyone CARE that the article is just plain old INACCURATE?

Dean governed proudly as a centrist and many on the left never thought he was anywhere near liberal.

Wittmann is describing the MEDIA caricature of Dean as a far lefty, without examining Dean's 11 years of actual governance. Dean and Clinton were both pretty moderate and centrist in their approach.

Wittmann is just WRONG in his reference to Dean. No need to take it personally. I could care less if he is not fond of Kerry's whole record, as long as he votes for him and moves a few more conservatives along with him.

[madfloridian]

15. I care, most of us are far from leftists. I am tired of it. DLC wrong .

They did not have to print the article with the "brainwashing" insult.

[KoKo]

22. They use Dean's exposing of Stolen Election, saying "Gore Won"

and Dean's Questioning of 9/11 Attacks as ways to paint him left. It's their way of sticking their finger in the eyes of the "Gore Won"...something's fishy about 9/11 Crowd. Folks like me and many others here on DU who will NEVER FORGET. Dean's Centrism is beside the point with them.

They really need to stop this..the DLC. Because the more they go after those of us on the left and the Dean/Kuchinich's who are btw working their butts off for Kerry in NC the more they anger us.

They bite the hand that's out there signing up voters and passing out flyers and hammering yard sides in the ground. We don't need this shit from DLC...:grr: :nuke:

[blm]

36. Ignore the DLC. They aren't really exercising any real power in this

election. They'll be forced to cooperate with the most progressive Democratic President of the last 40 years. (Come November)

[KoKo]

18. I thought Kerry Campaign denied they ever approached McCain for VP?

This article says they approached him. This article makes it seem we should be so happy for Repug support they use a McCain Op.

Disgusting...If Kerry had run with John McCain I wouldn't have voted this year. That would be an ABB that I couldn't tolerate.

[madfloridian]

21. Well, apparently he did. But I was going to not mention it.

.

[JI7]

25. McCain was never asked to be vp by Kerry. it was Bush who asked McCain

to be vp.

[KoKo]

29. The article states that McCain was "approached." you can read it in the

snip. What is approched? Did he leave a note on the sidewalk outside McCains DC apartment?

[JI7]

32. that article and other articles say many things , it doesn't make it true

[madfloridian]

This is the group responsible for the Dean leftist stuff.

They started it as soon as he started speaking out about the Democrats voting for the war and a lot of the GOP policies.

[KoKo]

35. Dean has been very visible this past week and doing a superb job, I wonder

who is angry about this? This is almost like a Rove thing to have a Repug Op write an article revealing that McCain was approached by Kerry (which Kerry denied) and then obviously trashing Dean.

Who is so worried that Dean who could bring more folks over to our side with his "plain spoken facts and excellent handling of the media" while MacAuliff and the rest of the DNC/DLC folks can barely hold their own making a point against any of the Bush Campaign folks with the Pundits.

This is so low...I'm raving mad...better just get off here.

[Bread and Circus]

19. The DLC seems like a bunch of self-important fools to me...

personally I am glad Dean's not the nominee, though I dearly miss him.

Frankly, I want Dean to head the DNC and I want McAuliffe out of there.

[trumad]

24. Whitman's full of shit

He says Rove brainwashed Dem's into supporting Dean and then spouts the Rove talking point of Dean being a social liberal. Seems to me he's the one brainwashed.

Why doesn't the guy write a piece explaining how McCain gargles Dubya's semen and and then swallows.

[Cha]

224. lol

}(

[HereSince1628]

20. The DLC remains an elitist paradigm in a party for egalitarianism

Sorry but it is true.

The DLC is anti-democratic in as much as it is club. The major flaw in their philosophy is "do anything to get elected." The major flaw in the organization is the idea that those who get elected are somehow "special."

Excuse me....sorry, the concept of "triangulation" left me barfing on my shoes....

Elitism is not part of the progressive movement. Granted people bring different abilities, and different opportunities, but such success brings an _obligation_ to serve, rather than building an organization intended to be made up of snobs.

The DLC has australized the democrats, both as in conservative rather than liberal democrats and as in "australopithecus." They are throw backs to good old boy systems, not a progression to broader participation.

[madfloridian]

26. But they gave Kerry at least 15 million, so they are influential.

They are the ones who labeled Dean and his supporters as leftist freaks. They have the power right now.

[HereSince1628]

42. Yes, money speaks, and robs the people of their opportunity

to be honestly represented.

THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A REPUBLICAN AND A DLC'er ON ISSUES OF PROTECTION OF AMERICAN JOBS.

Because winning is everything for the DLC they goldplated the concept of "ME TOO!" and ate every piece of poisoned pie the corpornazis fed them, just so long as the brown shirts wrote out a campaign contribution.

Now they are selling turds on their website under the guise of room freshners.

If only 1 thing good could come out of this election it would be the END of the DLC.

YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


BTW did I get it right that Karl Rove and William Kristol contribute to the DLC?

[RogueTrooper]

30. Anger aside

The real question is who yields more power in the Democratic Party: The DLC or Howard Dean?

Howard Dean yields far more power and influence than the DLC. The DLC are yesterday's men.

[madfloridian]

33. I am beginning to think so about the power.

There is more going on than folks realize. I will not put my anger aside. What they have done to the party is a horrible thing. I get more active and donate to Dean Dozen more when I am angry.
:evilgrin:

[pmbryant]

34. yours is a must-read post: "The DLC are yesterday's men"

Howard Dean yields far more power and influence than the DLC. The DLC are yesterday's men.

Thank you for bringing that up.

And the big picture here is that a fellow who was a Republican at the time of the last Presidential election, and is now a prominent independent, has endorsed our guy. That should be fabulous news!

:bounce:

Peter

[unfrigginreal]

47. Yep

Let 'em dig their own grave. It sounds like this schmuck will be a perfect fit for the DLC. I'm looking forward to the battle for the soul of the Party once we get this election behind us.

[mrgorth]

38. The DLC will never get over Dean

He called them on their bullshit and they hate it.

[UpsideDownFlag]

181. good old doctor dean...

he doesn't kiss ANYONE'S ass. even if it meant he'd lose the nomination. we should have more dems like him in leadership positions.

[JohnnyCougar]

39. I don't understand what the problem is

This article hits it right on the head. I voted for Dean in the primaries, too. But I voted because I liked him, not for pragmatic reasons. And that was a mistake.

The sad fact is, you can't vote for who you like best. Rove would be slaughtering Dean right now, especially with the lack of foreign policy experience. You think Kerry got it bad, Dean would have been annihilated with the "wimpy Democrat" meme. Perhaps Dean could have won in 2000, but not with the way the country is now.

[madfloridian]

57. If you do not think "mass brainwashing" is an insult.......

would you like some Florida swampland?

Actually I like Kerry and Edwards. I just do not like being insulted by saying I was brainwashed.

I am really surprised that you, as a Dean supporter, would think it ok for the DLC to say that Karl Rove "mass brainwashed" us.

[JohnnyCougar]

108. the brainwashing is a little bit of a stretch

Coming from a Republican, I don't really take it personally. I believe Rove wanted Dean to win. The rest of the article has validity...I just ignored the brainwashing part.

[Cha]

225. If rove wanted Dean to win in the

primary..he should have kept his media attack dogs off him!

[HereSince1628]

59. Your post seems pretty speculative

I mean there is no way to know if Rove would be slaughtering Dean right now. All that is speculation on your part. I respect your right to believe it, but then I respect your right to be wrong, too.

Go out and count the swing voters...they aren't there in big numbers.
Yes the election will be close.

If a campaign turns away people who believe in the principles of being a Democrat (and Dean attracted the party's greatest ideologues) in order to win over some disenchanted Republicans you run a damned good chance of not winning, because the "activist left" which far out numbers the undecided and waffling republican vote, could simply become disenchanted and stay home.

This DLC website crap is bad for Kerry, its bad for the party and it threatens to be bad for America.

[JohnnyCougar]

130. It's more based on sense than speculation.

George Bush could win this election on the war in Iraq and Terrorism alone. Dean has no credibility as far as foreign policy goes. The "fear" card B/C are playing would work even better aginst Dean. I don't think even alot of Dems believe Dean has the experience to deal with an out of control quagmire of a war, and that's all B/C would be talking about.

Remeber, winning over moderates means it is easier to win over the media. Dean would have been slaughtered by the media by being too leftist. If you think it's bad for Kerry, it would be worse for Dean.

I like and respect Dean, but he's not the best candidate for the Presidency right now. I hope he is included in Kerry's cabinet. But Rove knew that Dean was a walking bullseye when it comes to his percieved ability to fight terror and be a military leader.

[madfloridian]

144. You are changing the argument.

This was about the DLC's continued insults. It was not about anything else. Your opinion of Dean does not figure in to this argument. It does not matter.

The DLC is putting up an article that like many of the others on their site insults Howard Dean and his supporters.

[JohnnyCougar]

149. My point was I am a Dean supporter...and I'm not insulted.

I'm not insulted because the article makes a point that I see as valid.

[madfloridian]

172. So you are saying we were brainwashed.

There are good points in the article. However I do not see how you can think it is ok to be brainwashed. I was never brainwashed, were you?

[JohnnyCougar]

179. hehe...if you look at my posts, you will see that you are wrong

I said above that the "brainwashed" comment was a stretch, but it really means little in the context of the whole article. I didn't take it personally. I believe that getting bent out of shape over one comment should not destroy the content of the entire article.

[madfloridian]

190. "getting bent out of shape" Hmmmmm......

I believe I said a lot of the article was good. That was sort of a left-handed insult, I fear.

[JohnnyCougar]

199. I don't know where you said "a lot of the article was good"

It's not in your original post, which is the one I responded to. You sounded pretty insulted to me...that's what I consider "getting bent out of shape." Sorry.

[HereSince1628]

152. You're still solipsistic, at best you are right or wrong.

and that is the nature of n=1 statements of opinion.

You own it. I respect that. But it could be 100% wrong.

With respect to Dean being a cabinet member, I don't think that is a particularly good idea. Dean doesn't have any particular special expertise that would be of value to a department.

His resume, as it is, is that of an executive.

He didn't get the nod for pres. He wasn't selected as VP. Personally I think it's best he sit it out, and be working on 2008. At that point, if the revolution hasn't started, the democrats should be absolutely ready to dump the stupid ideas of the DLC.

[JohnnyCougar]

163. n = 1 statements of opinion...gimme a break

Is your argument insinuating that any statement of judgement based on knowledge is solipistic? If so, what good is any strategic planning? My opinion is based on firshand knowledge of social psychology, where we study the way people percieve the outside social world. If you are making this argument, you are basically saying that knowledge is useless.

[HereSince1628]

173. Ummm, your opinion is based on a sample of "1"

I could care less about your claims of expertise.

I have a PHD and I wouldn't expect that to count for anything on this discussion board.

You have an opinion. It's yours. It is either right or it is wrong.
That's it. That's just like every opinion, including my own.

Convincing people involves getting beyond solipsism and self-professed expertise.

I (and I suspect many others) would welcome your attempt to convince me with evidence beyond your own opinion. That is, after all, the nature of this discussion board.

[JohnnyCougar]

176. Well, I'm working on my PhD in Organizational psychology

And I assure you I'm not the only one with that opinion. As a matter of fact, ask anyone involved in politics, and I bet they would say the exact same thing. The fact that my argument is based on knowledge rather than opinion almost assures me that other people of knowledge share the same conclusions.

[HereSince1628]

189. The fact that this still hangs on your bet is self incriminating solipsism

As I said a PHD doesn't count here. So being in a doctoral program counts--well actually--about the same--arguments that prejudice authorit over truth are simply failures of logic.

Academic rank has no weight here.

Cite some friggin blog, something that suggests you are doing more than just sounding off. Because if you don't you are simply sounding off.

Better, provide some reference gained from your professed base of knowledge so that all of us can plug into it.

[JohnnyCougar]

197. Why did you bring it up then?

If you think a PhD has no merit here, then why did you feel the need to say that you had one?

[HereSince1628]

200. Well, that was stated in the post--it bears no weight

If you want to read something into that it is a logical fallacy.

Arguments that appeal to authority, or more stupidly, degree status are very vulnerable. Indeed they have a formal name as a logical fallicy. At best they are conditioned by the expertise of the speaker.
Yet nothing prevents even the most profoundly adept expert from mispeaking.

Hence the need for supporting evidence.

Opinions are fine. But they are samples of the most exquisitely small size in a population of hundreds of millions.

[JohnnyCougar]

203. If you think it bears no weight, there was no reason to bring it up

So you are contradicting yourself.

Then I bring it up in return, and you start giving ME the "appeal to authority" lecture.

I am through with this. If you're gonna be ridiculous, there's no point in arguing with you.

[madfloridian]

192. There are many here with degrees.

There are many folks here with those degrees. Some don't need to talk about them.

[JohnnyCougar]

195. well, if you look, I wasn't the first one to say I had a degree

It was a response to someone who obviously thought that having a degree was significant.

[PassingFair]

133. Peculiar...

considering the only time the polls show activity towards Kerry is when he sounds like Dean.
When he tells the truth, when he exposes the vile, murderous bastards for what they are, our jaws drop and we are reminded a tiny bit of how we felt the first time we heard Dean say "I want my country back!"

[JohnnyCougar]

146. Kerry sounding like Dean is better than Dean sounding like Dean

I know it might be a hard concept for someone to grasp, but because of his experience in the Senate and in Vietnam, the same words coming out of Kerry's mouth carry more weight with the Moderate republicans and the center-to-right media. When Dean says it, it comes off as reactionary: When kerry says it, it comes off as "I will be your new leader."

I really do like Dean...but his personality would be a walking target for the media. Do you think prominent Republican moderates would endorse Dean? More are endorsing Kerry day after day.

[madfloridian]

183. Not relevant now, but yes to your question.

Many did and still do. If you take a look at the military community supporting Kerry, most were with Dean first.

We have quite a few moderate Republicans in our local group of DFA. Since our local Democrats are actually Republicans in Florida in many areas....they did not fit in either party. So they supported Dean.

Now they are supporting Kerry because of Dean's activism.

This article was about being insulted. It was not about whether you approved of Dean or not. Let's face it, everyone is a walking target for the RNC.

[JohnnyCougar]

194. you're right about "everyone's a walking target"

I guess I just wasn't insulted by the article. Like I said, I was a Dean supporter, but I know Kerry will do better for pragmatic reasons. I think the article is acceptable because it has a valid point, even if there is one quote that is a little off the mark.

[madfloridian]

206. I like Kerry, I don't like the DLC, and I don't like the word brainwashed

So we agree on some things.

[JohnnyCougar]

210. Agreed!

Time to put disagreemtents aside and get Bush out of office!

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

40. I seriously doubt Kerry endorses or agrees with most of this

and the DLC is desperately trying to hang on now that they may become irrelevant. Any org that loses a party all three houses no matter how much money they can raise is hardly a friend.

[JI7]

43. yup, just look at how well Joe Lieberman did

[dolstein]

48. So you're offended at the thought of a Republican voting for Kerry? BFD

Perhaps you're offended at the thought that an organization like the DLC is actually interested in EXPANDING the party to include many moderates who previously voted Democrat. I agree that that runs counter to the Dean strategy, which appears to be focused on energizing the ever-shrinking liberal base of the party.

Unfortunately, so many DU'ers simply aren't old enough to remember when the Democrats were truly the majority party. Back then, the party was far more diverse ideologically than it is today. Despite the moderating influence of the DLC, today's Democratic Party is as liberal, particularly on social issues, as it has ever been. No, it's leadership may not be as liberal as it was in 1972. But in case you missed it, that year the party's rank and file defected to Nixon in huge numbers.

[el_gato]

53. That's not what was said and you know it dolstein

You don't have to make shit up.

They are not interested in moderates, they are interested in using the Democratic party as a tool for the corporate agenda.
Wake up!

[dolstein]

64. If you hate the DLC, then you hate Clinton

That's fine if you feel that way. But I happen to agree with Bill Clinton's policies.

[el_gato]

71. So Nafta was a good idea?

I don't hate Clinton but I don't agree with everything he did while in office either.

The Democratic party is for the people of this country and it should not be hijacked by a bunch of corporate servants.

[sangh0]

76. So 22 million new jobs was a bad idea?

Blame the DLC for those jobs.

[el_gato]

103. Look around you Sangho, our jobs are being shipped overseas

I guess you also think making hamburgers is manufacturing.

[sangh0]

121. So 22 million new jobs was a Bad Thing?

I noticed you didn't answer the question. I noticed you do that whenever you get stuck.

[el_gato]

162. Prove 22 million jobs are a product of NAFTA

show me your data, since you are the one making the claim that the policies of your beloved corporate servants are responsible.

[sangh0]

170. Still no link?

Instead of posting a link that shows I've defended the DLC, you've chosen to tell another lie.

Please link to the post where you imagined I said that "NAFTA created 22 million jobs"

Note for the illiterate: I said Clinton created those jobs, not NAFTA.

[HereSince1628]

168. Actually, I do not respect Clinton's efforts to build the DLC

Sorry, but "Bill ain't a Saint!"

I realize that might miss DU members who aren't _c_atholic.

The DLC, as best personified by Joe Liebermann, is a fraud on the ideals of the Democratic party.

Clinton was an organizer of the accursed thing. So, YES, I hold him accountable.

There is no place in this party for the good old boy elitism of the past. THAT is more properly the world of the GOP, ENRON, Halliburton and etc., and etc. and etc.

The fact that the Likud is putting pressure on ALL American political parties to become more like their right wing extremists is not a reason to actually become part of the right wing.

[sangh0]

68. I bet you didn't even READ the article

This is how the article ends:

"Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney have waged an unprecedentedly cynical and divisive campaign. The campaign has proven that there are no guard rails when it comes to a scorched-earth effort to hold on to power. However, Democrats can seize the opportunity to reach out to disaffected moderate Republicans and independents to build a new political coalition of national unity. That is both the hope and the cause of this unreconstructed Bull Moose."

And you think that article had nothing to do with getting repukes to vote for Kerry?

:crazy:

[el_gato]

75. You can buy into the rhetoric if you want

Actions speak louder than words and the DLC has a history of attacking anybody with even a slightly populist viewpoint.

They hate Dean because he speaks truth to power and in thier corporate world view that is dangerous.

I'm not interested in DLC Koolaid.

[sangh0]

81. Breaking News (you might want to READ the rhetoric)

The author was a repuke. I strongly suggest you actually read the article. It's obvious that you haven't.

They hate Dean because he speaks truth to power and in thier corporate world view that is dangerous

The author isn't DLC. He's a repuke who is anti-corporatist. That's why he calls himself a "Bull Moose". Do you even know what that means?

[unfrigginreal]

99. "Breaking News II"

The author is a Senior Fellow at the DLC. Do you even know what that means?

[sangh0]

105. Yes

It means very little. Just like how every employee at Wal-Mart is a "manager", everyone who does anything for the DLC is a Sr Advisor/Fellow.

[unfrigginreal]

111. Then stop trying to say he's not DLC

They welcomed him with open arms and he is now part of the DLC.

[sangh0]

124. He's a republican

He is not trying to defeat the republican party. He only wants to defeat bush*.

[el_gato]

139. As is the DLC

Corporate Republicans posing as democrats.

[sangh0]

142. That's what St. Ralphie says

and we all know what a winner he is

BTW, do you think Al Sharpton is DLC? Are you still having a problem finding a post where I defend the DLC?

[The Magistrate]

55. It Is A Pretty Good Article, Ma'am, Considering The Source

There is an old progressive tradition in the Republican Party, that still matters to some degree in the Northeast and the West. These people are a damned poor fit with the alliance of Mammon with the Dominionists that currently controls the Republican Party, and it would be good to have as many of them as possible cut the painter to the old G.O.P. and come aboard with us.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[Jon8503]

60. I Still Support Dean but will be voting for Kerry. I

Don't think much of the DLC and won't be giving any more to them.

[madfloridian]

63. In this thread those who are more about winning no matter the cost....

are showing up. Their further insults to me, on top of the brainwashing stuff from the DLC, show them as not caring for the heart and soul of the party.

It shows, my friends.

We support Kerry/Edwards, we donated to them. We are not brainwashed.

We stand for things that are for the people instead of corporations.

I am holding my anger close to my heart, as that passion arising from it will be needed after November. The DLC does have the power now, way way too much power.

To anyone who does not think using the term "mass brainwashing" against Democrats is wrong, there is nothing to say.

[sherilocks]

83. I'm trying to find the "brain-washing" part

Please give me the paragraph number. It's a long article. Did I miss something?

[sangh0]

86. It's at the beginning

where the author, a REPUBLICAN, says something like "I thought Democrats had been brainwashed into supporting Dean...."

[The Magistrate]

98. Winning Beats Losing, Ma'am, Every Time

If you do not mean to win, and do what it takes to win, there is no point even showing up....

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[madfloridian]

101. I don't want your kind of winning anymore.

I think you need to do some thinking. SIR. If you keep giving up everything you believe in to win...soon you have no values at all. Read my sig. Quit trying to be so clever, and think.

[The Magistrate]

106. There Are No 'Kinds' Of Winning, Ma'am

At the end of the contest, one wins and one loses; it really is that simple. A home run or a series of errors puts the same result on the board....

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[madfloridian]

118. Your response tells it all.

To you is about winning, no matter what the cost. I am suspect when people feel that way.

[Name removed]

126. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[madfloridian]

132. I am sure he is thankful that you are his supporter and spokesperson.

I hope he thanks you profusely.

[sangh0]

141. And I"m sure you'll avoid the point

because you don't want to admit that you're the only one who has said "win at any price"

[madfloridian]

147. No, listen to the Russert and Rose interviews with Dean this week.

Actually this has been part of the "Deaniac" mantra for a while....that if you just keep trying to win and not stand for your beliefs, then soon you have no beliefs and you lose.

[sangh0]

153. Just as I said

I'm sure you'll avoid the point because you don't want to admit that you're the only one who has said "win at any price"

Now you're trying to blame Dean.

[MontecitoDem]

218. Madfloridian, your statements can be read as insults as well,

if someone is so inclined. I mean, basically you seem to be saying that if one isn't incensed at being described as brainwashed, then they don't care for the "heart and soul" of the party, and they are wrong and have nothing of value to say.

This thread seems like just another opportunity for self-indulgent rantings, on all sides. Don't we have anything substantive going on today?

[madfloridian]

220. I have no answer to that.

It is really stretching things, you know. LOL

[LittleClarkie]

65. Well, I for one have been impressed with your support

If I have said otherwise in the past, I apologize.

As Kerry has been more successful in getting his message across, I've seen the Deaniacs get more jazzed.

Coming out with statements like that right now just weaken the alliance of Democrats, and that's wrong.

I saw Dean with Tim Russert over the weekend. I have to say I liked him more than I thought I would (same thing I used to say about Kerry) and I'm glad for his support. Even my Conservative friend liked him.

Dean's gift is his commitment to his convictions. He has contributed to the dialogue of this election in many ways. And for that I thank him.

But Kerry isn't moving to the right to be a centrist out of political expediency. Despite the L for Liberal on his forehead, he was already moving toward the center, and has been for a number of years. At least on some issues like national defense. And despite Dole's attempt to call him a partisan, I think Kerry is quite non-partisan in alot of ways. He's the bridge builder Bush promised to be but wasn't. I think he'd want us to build bridges amongst each other too.

I do wish the Democratic Party was more unified. They are getting there, evidenced by how all the candidates lined up behind Kerry. But we have a ways to go. Don't worry, there are those of us out here who recognize that nothing is gained with this sort of infighting.

Welcome.

[madfloridian]

79. There is nothing wrong with the center, that is where I am.

Dean is the center, most of his supporters are. That is why I am so angry at this article. They could have left out the brainwashed insult, and a lot of the article is quite good.

I like Kerry and Edwards both, and I have no problem with anyone in the party who is finally speaking up against the things that are wrong in this country.

The DLC has become full of Republicans....and they need to stop insulting us.

Thanks for the nice post.

[LittleClarkie]

92. Thanks for the information

I'm still learning. I didn't even look at Dean during the primaries. I'm such a political newbie.

I have to remember that to some people, anything to the left of them is liberal, radical, or communist/socialist. I run into that myself. I have a big ol' L on my forehead too here in Bush Country. But I'm a moderate by all indications that I can measure.

[Leilani]

202. The author of the article is an Indie

& if you read it, you will see a major part of his dissatisfaction with Repubs is their corporate masters.

There are MANY unhappy indies & moderate Repubs; he is advocating a new alignment. That will displease the Progressive Wing of the Dems.

Both parties are in search of their souls right now, & some serious thinking, discussion, & power plays will be on the agenda after the election.

But for right now, it seems like you try to bring as many people together to help elect Kerry. That was the purpose of his article.
You can disagree with him, but his goal was to defeat Bush, & that is what we should deal with right now.

[madfloridian]

209. He could have done that without saying Dean folks were brainwashed.

You know we are working for Kerry now. But there is no excuse for saying we are brainwashed. It is ugly and divisive.

The author is now a member of the DLC.

[sherilocks]

72. I read and reread Wittman's piece and

I thought that he made some good points. I have never been fond of the DLC and have written them several times when I thought they were way off base. But, and this is a big but, WE are the party of the big tent and should not be tearing ourselves apart, especially now. I supported Howard Dean, moved to being ABB when Kerry was nominated, and now I fully support him. Let's move on.

[madfloridian]

80. No, No, No.

If you as a former Dean supporter are not insulted, then you are not paying attention. You like it being said you were part of a "brainwashed" movement?

[sangh0]

87. translation

If you disagree with me, there must be something wrong with you.

If you as a former Dean supporter are not insulted, then you are not paying attention.

[KoKo]

160. sangh0, how are those Campaign signs and volunteer efforts coming that you

you were talking about recently? :shrug:

[sangh0]

171. In which dimension

did you hear me say that?

[bklyncowgirl]

84. Dean crack spoiled what was basicly a pretty good article

On the whole I liked quite a bit of what was in here and any time a Republican decides to throw his support to Kerry, I'm going to applaud.

However, I do think that the slap at Dean and his supporters was superfluous and highly unhelpful when we're supposed to be working together to elect John Kerry. Sometimes I get the feeling that the DLC is more interested in maintaining control over the party than in actually winning elections.

Let's get this election over with, then we can form up the circular firing squads and have at it.

[sherilocks]

93. Brooklyn Cowgirl, I agree with you on the DLC, and your

comments in general. But I'm still looking for the "brain-washed" part. Please help.

[madfloridian]

127. Here is the brainwashed part......

SNIP.."So what does the Bull Moose think of the donkey? In the early primaries, I thought Karl Rove had induced a mass brainwashing of the Democrats as they flocked to Howard Dean. If the Deaniacs had seized the party, the Bush-Rovian dream of realignment might have been realized. Dean was their dream opponent -- a socially liberal, anti-war candidate from Vermont. However, the good centrist sense of the Democratic rank and file prevailed.

This is exactly what Al From and Will Marshall have been doing to Dean all along.

[sangh0]

129. Notice how the author implies he no longer believes in "brainwashing"

The author says "In the early primaries, I thought...." which suggests the author no longer believes that.

[madfloridian]

94. You got it! You got the idea. Thanks. DFA just got a donation.

It was in many ways a good article. But they have to take that slap at Dean. They do it every chance they get.

My husband just read it, said they just made him mad again, and we donated some more to DFA for the grassroots candidates.

The DLC just gave DFA another 200 from us this month!!!

Then he can give more to Harkin or other senators for their homestate candidates. The DLC is very inspiring.

[mzmolly]

88. We just have to keep in mind the DLC is NOT the Democratic Party.

In fact, I think that many in it have got to be Rovian plants. Why else would they want to alienate Dean supporters?

:grr:

I would like nothing better then to see the DLC ELIMINATED!

[madfloridian]

97. If you give the candidate a minimum of 15 million, you are influential.

Yes, you are right about a lot of them being highly suspect. They surround all the candidates, especially in foreign policy, and they hang on like pit bulls.

[sangh0]

100. We should also keep in mind that the author is NOT DLC

He's a "Bull Moose" Republican. He's in the tradition of corporate reformer and environmentalist Teddy Roosevelt.

And he seems to hate bush*

[madfloridian]

114. He is now a senior fellow at the DLC.

Go to their site and read the article I posted
http://www.ndol.org/ndol_ci.cfm?kaid=131&subid=192&contentid=252921

Read up before you post.

[sangh0]

131. I not only read it, I understood it

Too bad you can't honestly say the same.

BTW, did you notice that the author implies that he no longer believes that Dean supporters were "brainwashed"?

[Geek_Girl]

164. I'm not insulted that a republican is endorsing Kerry

But I wish moderate republicans would work harder in their own party to change things instead of joining our party and using influence to make it more right leaning.

Our party caves to corporate interest way to much and we need to clean house after this election. Clinton and the dems during the 90's gave Corporate America way to much power and now look! It's biting us in the ass!

Take the media, look how they treat our candidates. That because dems allowed the deregulation of the media and gave the mega corporation to much power.

Meanwhile each day we get screwed up the ass and most Americans don't even realize it.

[madfloridian]

186. Excellent post. Thanks.

Your post is very perceptive.

[sherilocks]

123. Here is the offensive statement.

"So what does the Bull Moose think of the donkey? In the early primaries, I thought Karl Rove had induced a mass brainwashing of the Democrats as they flocked to Howard Dean. If the Deaniacs had seized the party, the Bush-Rovian dream of realignment might have been realized. Dean was their dream opponent -- a socially liberal, anti-war candidate from Vermont. However, the good centrist sense of the Democratic rank and file prevailed. "

Sorry, I'm not offended. It's just his opinion.

[sangh0]

174. I'm not offended either, but then

I was never a Dean supporter. But even if I was, I'd never be insulted by anything a repuke says. Especially when the repuke is campaigning for Kerry.

For some, supporting the Dem candidate is not enough. Purity demands that they worship at the altar of Dean.

[TheDonkey]

109. Kerry is not DLC's choice, they are still waiting for Joementum

;)

Ignore the DLC if you don't like them, they really don't speak for the DNC. Just a faction (like the many) in the party.

[madfloridian]

116. More than 15 million to Kerry...they have influence.

Oh, yes, they pull many a corporate string.

[sangh0]

134. So now you're going to attack Kerry?

while complaining about how the DLC attacks Dems?

[madfloridian]

140. You have responded to every post of mine with an angry tone.

You don't say much, just disagree with me.

If I said the sky was blue, you would say it was purple.

Could you present some good arguments for what you say? Just disagreeing is non-productive.

[Name removed]

143. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

161. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Julien Sorel]

166. One person, a Republican, writes an article

in which one paragraph says something that a lot of people say, and it turns into a 100+ post crybaby fest. Get a fucking grip, people.

I went to a corporate function in May where 90%+ of the people were Republicans. They alternated between laughing at Dean, and lamenting the end of his candidacy. Some of them were extremely well connected in Washington, the names of people you would recognize. This Wittman person is only saying what a lot of people, especially Republicans, say. But it has to turn into another DU/Deanite attack of the killer crybaby threads. Christ, I hope Kerry wins and this crybaby shit ends.

[madfloridian]

175. November 3rd is not the end.

We are not going away. I don't mind if Republicans laugh at us, I do mind that the Democrats who are taking away our Medicare and Social Security (unless they revote) and got us the NCLB, and took us to Iraq where we are bogged down.....I do mind that they are saying we were brainwashed.

That is the ultimate insult in these times. This has not been about decent Democrats and decent Republicans in a long long time.

[sangh0]

177. Breaking News

The author is NOT a Democrat

I do mind that the Democrats ...are saying we were brainwashed.

[madfloridian]

184. It is printed in an article at a Democrat think tank site......

a site which despises all of us who supported Dean, Howard Dean himself, and who would rather gather Republicans under their wing than work for their base.

[unfrigginreal]

187. Yeah, Bunter. This thread doesn't have anything to do with

peoples feelings about the DLC, only their feelings about the Dean comment. You're so incisive.

And no, don't worry that some might think the obsessed crybabies would be the ones that go to a corporate function with whiney assed Dean haters and Republican friends to laugh at Dean.

[goodhue]

178. who cares?

Please just ignore any perceived insults.
I supported Kucinich all the way to Boston. If I paid heed to feelings of insult I would have never made it that far.
In any event, with the sole exception of the vote on Iraqi resolution, Dean was just as much as centrist as Kerry.
Kerry is no less socially liberal than Dean.
The Bull Moose is clueless.

[madfloridian]

185. Kucinich was treated badly by the press and the party.

He was excellent on Crossfire today. Democrats need to use him more often.

[wyldwolf]

188. ahhh. Did someone insult your precious little lord and saviour again?

After you gushed over Dean's new book in which he basically trashed the DNC, Bill Clinton, Wesley Clark, and others, you whine about someone taking it to Dean?

[madfloridian]

191. LOL. That is funny. Never thought of him as that. LOL

I love the description, and I think he may be just that. LOL

Thanks for realizing his power and ours.

[wyldwolf]

201. LOL! Notice the words are in lower case

Thanks for realizing his power and ours.

Power appears to have failed you when you needed it most.

[madfloridian]

208. Oh, you did not know.

You have not seen it yet. Read the book. Think about it. Fasten your seat belts.

[wyldwolf]

213. Let's see

He whines about Clinton helping Clark and other Dems working against him the the primaries (welcome to Washington politics, Doc!)

My question - he did not get the nomination. Not even close. He isn't the favorite to get it in '08 or '12.

So where is that power?

[madfloridian]

215. Keep thinking that way. Keep misrepresenting it all.

It does not bother us at all. Trust me, it just does not matter anymore.

[wyldwolf]

217. ok!

No obvious power. Just a lot of sour grapes.

[Forkboy]

204. "Did someone insult your precious little lord and saviour again"

Why,it's enough to remind of me of your posts in the DLC thread.

[NoPasaran]

207. wyldwolf, I just read Dean's book

And he does not "basically trash" Bill Clinton. In fact, he writes a lot about Clinton's remarkable personal and political skills. Of course he has his differences with Clinton---but I think that we Democrats are allowed to have our disagreements without being cast into outer darkness. If anybody comes in for a trashing in You Have the Power it's the Identity Politics Left of the 70's/80's (as well as the GOP of course).

[wyldwolf]

211. I was referring to two threads involving the author of this one...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=794217

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2332098

See, with some, it is ok to trash but not ok to be trashed.

[madfloridian]

214. Those posts did not insult Clinton. They just told what he did.

Which was dead wrong. Dean does not trash Clinton, in fact,he respects him very much. He is very self-critical as well.

Oh, did they change the rule here about dragging up old and archived posts to flame?

Dean is right, Clinton should not have said that about the civil unions. You brought that up, I did not.

[wyldwolf]

216. according to who?

[NoPasaran]

219. I think your argument is really with them, not with Dean

The book really is written as Dean speaks, with the occasional phrase that, taken out of context, can cause one's head to explode, if you are so inclined. But overall, Dean seems to have a higher opinion of Clinton than do some of the flamewarriors on this board.

[UpsideDownFlag]

221. okay, it's official: don't ever DARE to call any of my posts devisive

after showing such disrespect for one of the most courageous dems in my lifetime.

[Warren DeMontague]

205. 'Brothers! Sisters! We shouldn't be fighting each other!"

....We should be fighting the common enemy!"

"Yes! The JUDEAN PEOPLE'S FRONT!"



"No! The Romans!"

...Sorry, couldn't resist. OK, No more LOB quotes from me this week.

[madfloridian]

212. Good post.

I don't trash folks. I take it seriously when a Democratic org says I am brainwashed. If they stop, I'll stop.

[secular_warrior]

223. I loathe the DLC and McCain

The DLC are like black people before civil rights who wanted to pass for white, who wanted so badly for white people to accept them.

The DLC hates their own, and wants so badly for McCain and other moderate Repubs to love them.

McCain has no integrity and simply exists to play both sides against the middle for his own selfish gain. McCain has his sycophants in both parties.. probably more in ours. It's about time someone in our party told McCain to shut the fuck up and mind his own business. He is a Republican and sticks with them when it counts anyway. McCain should never be the "conscience of the Democratic Party." He has too much say.

The one part of the characterization about Dean is - while I agree with most Dean's message - the immature "rah rah" teenybopper nature of what should've been a serious campaign. A much more serious campaign could've carried Dean's message to victory. I didn't support Dean in the primaries because I knew he had zero chance of winning, and getting rid of Bush is priority number one. Hopefully he takes back the party, though, and knocks out the DLC and McCain wannabes. The DLC will probably be finished anyway if Kerry wins. Kerry is not a centrist, even though they're trying to spin it that way in order to justify their failed centrist strategy.

[Skinner]

226. I'm going to lock this.

In case anyone missed it, there's a debate tonight. We've got more important things to do than to attack each other.