JE disapointed me big time. Flame away if you wish, but he sucked.

[karlrschneider]

I wanted to see some serious asskicking. It didn't happen. Blew a chance to reduce the fucking lying asshole back to Jackson WY.

[ALago1]

1. Disagree bigtime

He had to be succinct and on message while at the same time countering the myriad of lies thrown his way by Cheney. He did very well especially on the domestic issues.

[fizzana]

27. Edwards did miss some opportunities to really hit Cheney

I was pissed that he never brought up Cheney's claim that the US would be welcomed in Iraq as liberators. Here's what he should have said at some point.

'While you were going on TV and claiming that we would be welcomed as liberators your administration was ignoring a warning from the CIA that a post war Iraq was likely to descend into the mess we have now."

He also should have hit him a lot harder on their incompetence in running the war. He should have brought up Chalabi, the secrecy behind the energy papers etc.

[fizzana]

28. Edwards did miss some opportunities to really hit Cheney

I was pissed that he never brought up Cheney's claim that the US would be welcomed in Iraq as liberators. Here's what he should have said at some point.

'While you were going on TV and claiming that we would be welcomed as liberators your administration was ignoring a warning from the CIA that a post war Iraq was likely to descend into the mess we have now."

He also should have hit him a lot harder on their incompetence in running the war. He should have brought up Chalabi, the secrecy behind the energy papers etc.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HuskerDem]

39. I'm so suprised you feel that way <sarcasm off/> eom

[Career Prole]

73. As opposed to a seasoned, knowledgable veteran of many campaigns

such as yourself, no doubt. I'm sure there are websites where you'd be more happy, and no doubt more welcome if all your posts refer to our candidate as a "puppy".

[The_Casual_Observer]

86. This post has absolutely no merit

[Lancer]

3. I was disappointed, too.

Gwen Ifill never had control over the debate and Crashcart took advantage of the situation, IMO.

[Kitsune]

4. It's not that he sucked, he just didn't do as well as he should have.

He had at least 5 times to mention that Cheney is still being paid by fucking Halliburton. I watched this in the dorm basement lounge and I was commenting out loud on all the lies Cheney was spewing, and Edwards called him on maybe half of them.

Honestly I'd call it a draw, simply because Dick Cheney looks like a possessed cyborg and scares the bejeezus out of any sane human being.

[karlrschneider]

22. I agree. The evil cyborg does strike a chord with the many morans who

inhabit this fubar country.

[fujiyama]

83. I agree

that this wasn't a blowout but I doubt anyone expected that to be the case. Cheney himself is more crooked, and willy than Bush. He's no dummy.

Edwards tied him at worst.

[Skip Intro]

5. Everyone's entitled to his/her opinion

so you got that going for ya

[Mizmoon]

6. I thought he did really well

I'm surprised to read this reaction.

[karlrschneider]

14. I promise there is nobody on this planet who hates Shrub more than I do.

But I really wanted to see some serious ass-kicking from JE. Maybe I'm too fervent. Whatever.

[spooky3]

19. gotta remember that the average Murkun demands that ass-kicking

be gentle and done with a smile. He has to get through to those people rather than piss them off, and hope the base will understand.

[indie_voter]

7. Disagree

I think people expected some type of definitive good vs evil moment.

This doesn't happen in real life. Kerry had the easy job, fighting a lightweight.

Cheney is not *. Edwards did the best he could considering the format and time constraint.

A draw was the best I hoped for and Edwards exceeded my expectations.

[A Simple Game]

33. I agree.

Cheney threw out so many false numbers that Edwards couldn't refute all of them. The moderator may not have been biased for Cheney, but did a very poor job and at times made Edwards look foolish. Still all in all I feel Edwards won a modest victory.(My expectations were probably too high.)

[w4rma]

8. Edwards was awesome! Cheney is a blatant liar and Edward smacked him

down on so many lies. I am now a hardcore Edwards supporter.

[RobinA]

9. First of All

there was no way Edwards was going to give Cheney "a serious ass-kicking." Cheney is no Bush, and he's been at this stuff for...well, decades.

Second, Edwards problem was one of strategery, not him. They had him sticking too close to the talking points. They should have let Edwards be Edwards. Frankly, I'm sick to death of the talking points on both sides. I'm going to start dreaming about the Iraq talking points soon.

[Ripley]

15. Talking points....

Who won those I guess is the question?

EDWARDS.

Cheney the Dick had no comeback to the brief Halliburton charges...yet he had to THANK JE about his Lesbian daughter.

Insignificant, maybe. But I noticed them.

[Robert Oak]

10. Well, there wasn't a debate

You've got Cheney saying "you're wrong" with false facts..

I mean impossible.

My feeling, honestly is really a "thuck" or "draw"...

I mainly was bored, having a difficult time concentrating.

i thought Edwards closing statement was perfection and I think
he made some blunders that do come from inexperience, but
Cheney also just sat as his Mr. Neocon lying lump and to me
that's loser too...

[geek tragedy]

11. Edwards was fine.

But, Cheney was better. That SOB is a tough, smart streetfighter.

[Ripley]

17. Yeah, right.

He grew up in East Harlem selling crack.

:wtf:

[geek tragedy]

30. He's a nasty son of a bitch, but he's shrewd.

Not literally a streetfighter, but the guy has fought dirty for decades.

[Ripley]

38. Your description of him is weird.

He is 180 of street fighter. He is a bad-heart, doctor to his left at all times, surrounded by money, maids, nurses and other assorted help.

He is no freaking street fighter. That would entail lone strength and intestinal fortitude, oh, and lack of FEAR.

[secular_warrior]

40. We needed our own "street fighter"

Why we picked a sunny, optimistic , first term senator for VP is beyond me. The VP is supposed to be the attack dog !

I'm sick of Kerry having to pull this ticket on his own, take all the attacks by himself. But I guess it's his fault for listening to the idiots Cahill and Shrum and their crowd to choose Edwards.

[CrowNotAngelGRL]

37. I thought Edwards

had a really tough task against him. I think him relating to the people helped him more. I enjoyed the debate but loved the Kerry one better of course and can't wait for the one on Friday.

[geek tragedy]

66. Edwards helped put the focus on the tops of the tickets.

Cheney came across as impressive, but Bush did not (Cheney refused to defend him vigorously).

I agree that the spin should be that George W. Bush lost the debate tonight.

[Tatiana]

12. You do realize the Edwards faced the more formidable opponent:

I.E. the REAL PRESIDENT of the United States. I thought he would be in over his head, but he did a VERY credible job and held court for Team Kerry. I'm proud of him.

[alarcojon]

13. They both drew blood

Edwards slammed Chestpainey on his votes against weapons systems when he was Sec. of Defense. Cheney knew better than to even try to rebut. But I think Edwards really needed to address Cheney's charge that he missed all those meetings, which he didn't do.

I don't think Edwards sucked, but I think expectations of him were sky-high and he didn't meet them.

[Penndems]

16. I thought Senator Edwards was excellent

He articulated the Dems' platform very succiently and intelligently. He was personable and showed a sense of honor and decency when broached with the subject of gay marriage and, in particular, the love the Cheney family had for their daughter, Mary.

My God, Dick Cheney looks terrible. So pasty and aged. John Edwards radiated youthful vitality and energy. Cheney looked like a spent man. So sickly looking, as if his better days were behind him.

[Penndems]

18. I thought Senator Edwards was excellent

He articulated the Dems' platform very succiently and intelligently. He was personable and showed a sense of honor and decency when broached with the subject of gay marriage and, in particular, the love the Cheney family had for their daughter, Mary.

My God, Dick Cheney looks terrible. So pasty and aged. John Edwards radiated youthful vitality and energy. Cheney looked like a spent man. So sickly looking, as if his better days were behind him.

He definitely met his match in every aspect in John Edwards.

[Penndems]

24. Dupe message - sorry

DU site's running VERY slow this evening. :)

[Mr_Spock]

20. Well, you must've been smoking some serious dope

Can't imagine that either guy was outside of their character - the reason Kerry is on top is for a reason.

[atre]

26. I think some here were expecting Cheney to look and act like Bush

I'm not sure how anyone can say that Cheney won.

[Mr_Spock]

34. Well, I can see if some folks had unrelistic expectations - but c'mon

Sombody's been smoking crack.

[gulliver]

21. Edwards did kick Cheney's ass.

The attacks landed, and they were nice to see. I especially loved Cheney's lame response after Edwards pointed out Cheney's Congressional voting record. That was the kind of whup-ass moment I think you are talking about.

But the bigger "ass kicking" came in Edwards persuading people away from Cheney's spell of distortion and fear-mongering. Edwards' gentle, congenial, optimistic, jovial persuasion "dispelled" Cheney like fart in a fan.

[Moloch]

23. I agree....

was expecting Edwards to do much better. A lot of the questions he didn't even answer specifically, and I think he could have made his points much better and made cheney look like the evil fuckbag that he is..

I certainly hope that a lot less people saw the debate tonight than the one last Thursday.

[Peanut Gallery]

25. Not going to flame you,

but he didn't *suck.*

He was tenacious. Cheney attacked hard but Edwards didn't give up, and he still came across as a nice, likable guy.

[iwantmycountryback]

29. Totally disagree

There was a couple times at least where he rentered Cheney literally speechless. Especially about his voting record.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

31. Disagree

I think by playing cool he brought out Cheney's evil side. It was quite a contrast. Okay maybe not as much as Kerry and Shrub but the contrast in the first debate was between calm coolness and ineptness.

[secular_warrior]

32. I agree 100% - I always feared this moment - why I didn't want Edwards

I disagreed with the Edwards VP choice precisely for moments like these.

If we had someone like Joe Biden or Dick Gephardt up there Cheney would've been skinned alive.

We needed more gravitas, more age, more toughness - NOT the sunny, youthful, small town lawyer.

VERY DISSAPOINTED IN EDWARDS.

WHY DOES KERRY HAVE TO DO ALL THE HEAVY LIFTING ON HIS OWN ?

[sgtyellerdawg]

48. Edwards needs to get Elizabeth to pack...

...him another lunch cuz Cheney just ate his!!!!That was a lousy, lousy showing by John and Dick chuckled his way through the whole thing. Cheney made Edwards look like the chump Bush is...Edwards damn it - get off those damn talking points! I was waiting on him to say mexed missages!

Hate to tell you guys but the air has gone out of the race as of tonight - if Kerry can not take out Dubya on Friday then the next four years are going to be U G L Y!!!!!!!!!!

I am so disappointed.

[ScreamingMeemie]

55. I'm not. So I guess we cancel each other out.

:hi: Welcome to DU. "Great" first post.

[osaMABUSh]

sgtyellerdawg - not a typical DUer 1st post so I'm a bit skeptical

Anyway - worst case it was a draw. Edwards did not kick butt but Cheney had some 'senior moments' it seemed.

Ifil (the moderator) did a horrible job. Jim Lehrer kicked Ifil's ass. She was bad on the followups and then totally fucked up a 'third' follow-up to Edwards.

[Career Prole]

75. Study up a bit, eh? All you people whining about Edwards!

I've sent the following to a dozen news outlets already and now I'll send it to you...

After watching the vice-president's performance tonight I'm ready now to admit, however grudgingly, that Cheney supporters will accept as truth any falsification no matter how outrageous provided Cheney precedes the lie with a snarled "The facts of the matter are..."
Yes, I'm calling Cheney supporters uninformed, stupid, or quite possibly both.
There is no other explanation this late in the game.

If you believe Cheney won that debate with that shit, I don't care if you've been a Democrat for 50 years, you just aren't paying attention...or you're a dope.
I'm Career Prole, and I approve this message.

[liberal_in_GA]

50. From my Independent husband (who is voting Kerry)

He said it was clear that these two had the same intelligence level, and that this debate only underscores how ridiculous Shrub looked in his debate with Kerry. He called it a draw, and I think a draw is just fine and dandy. It's not going to decide this election.

[Ripley]

53. Who was your pick over Edwards?

Moments like these huh? Who would have done better than Dean?

Why are you very dissapointed in Edwards and why can't you spell?

[secular_warrior]

70. Of the finalists, Gephardt was my pick over Edwards, but

any heavyweight mainstream Democrat would've done - someone like Joe Biden, for example.

I was worried about Edwards lack of gravitas, lack of experience and lack of a hard edge when I thought ahead to the debate with Cheney.

Kerry is in this fight alone -- and has been in this fight alone for months. It is one against two. However, I have complete faith in John Kerry. He has what it takes to win.

ps. Spellchecker, huh ? Hurling childish insults at fellow a Democrat offering constructive critcism is neither constructive nor democratic.

[w4rma]

60. You and karlrschneider had the wrong idea about this debate going into it

I think you guys must have been thinking something unrealistic, something that noone could have done.

imho

Sen. Edwards just fought Goebbels himself. I wasn't expecting the blatant lying that Cheney did at first, but about 30mins into it I got used to it, and I could tell that Sen. Edwards was also and was calling that evil bastard out on those lies.

[sofa king]

I'm waiting for the transcript.

I liked Cheney's curmudgeonly attitude--he's such a bastard, but really fun to watch. He bullshitted a lot, and we're gonna nail him for that.

I thought Edwards did a fine job as well. He came at it from a different angle. I was a little nonplussed at first to see him repeating the bullets when he could have dissected Cheney's more nonsensical arguments.

But I think in the long run people will give Edwards credit for not responding to the distortions and instead returning repeatedly to the President's and the Vice President's record, and the Kerry-Edwards plan to fix things.

[NRaleighLiberal]

35. I have to disagree....the main goal tonight was to maintain momentum,,,,

which is what Edward did. He compared very well to the Grinch himself, who looked world weary, tired, bored, at turns - Cheney completely lost energy in the domestic portion, probably because the current administration has nothing in their hand for our citizens. Edwards did as much as could be expected of him under very challenging circumstances, should be congratulated - have you seen some of the polls? Even David Brooks on PBS thought Edwards did fine and held his own....and most of the pundits thought he had Cheney on the ropes.

[Amaya]

36. Did you want Edwards to...

choke the fucker? He was up against evil incarnate. Edwards was classy and did a damn fine job.

[leftofthedial]

41. couldn't disagree more

he did very well

he put cheney on the defensive and kept him there

it was masterful

[Turbo]

42. Edwards couldn't seem to get any ....

traction. I love the man, but he had a flat night tonight (just being honest).

There were so many times he could have landed a knockout punch, but instead he simply reverted to his stump speech, which I've heard it too many times.

I think Gwen Ifil had Edwards a little rattled early on, and he didn't recover. Edwards should have nailed Cheney on the failed North Korea talks.

[dave123williams]

43. You gotta give Darth Vader credit...

He came off EXACTLY as seriously and credibly as he did when he was constantly telling the country that there were WMD's in Iraq, and that they posed an imminent threat. He is truly a frighteningly convincing liar.

[Nicholas_J]

44. As usual

people expect from debates something that is not intended to exist in them

Edwards not only held his own but in most polls right now is ahead of Cheney, in fact he as far ahead of Cheney in several of the polls as Kerry was in a number of polls on Thurday. In osme polls Kerry was around 56-57 percent to Bush in the 40's while Edwards is doing as well in the Fox Poll as Kerry did in the Fox polls, Edwards being as far ahead of Cheney in the Fox Polls as Kerry was ahead of Bush.


FOr Edwards to achieve such and advantage over a careeer politician who has been in government for well over 30 years is an acheivement in itself.

[Nicholas_J]

45. As usual

people expect from debates something that is not intended to exist in them

Edwards not only held his own but in most polls right now is ahead of Cheney, in fact he as far ahead of Cheney in several of the polls as Kerry was in a number of polls on Thurday. In osme polls Kerry was around 56-57 percent to Bush in the 40's while Edwards is doing as well in the Fox Poll as Kerry did in the Fox polls, Edwards being as far ahead of Cheney in the Fox Polls as Kerry was ahead of Bush.


FOr Edwards to achieve such and advantage over a careeer politician who has been in government for well over 30 years is an acheivement in itself.

[BlueEyedSon]

46. Well yeah, Cheney has all those years of experience at LYING!!!

[bklyncowgirl]

47. Disagree--the Breck Girl held his own against Hannibal Lector

Once again, Americans are getting a chance to see our candidates as they are against the real Bush and Cheney. Cheney threw everything he had at Edwards and he did not flinch. Edwards threw it all back in his face with skill, strength, sincerity and charm.

Cheney's no empty suit like Bush. He was going to be tough. Edwards didn't blow him away like Kerry did Bush but I am damn proud of him.

[AmerDem]

51. you're "proud of him"?

and you call him "Breck Girl"? Get a fucking clue!

[exJW]

49. *shrug* mmm, ok, you're a dumbass.

How's that for flame? I'm sincere too! I think JE did it just right.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

52. Short of physical contact, what the fuck else did you want?

I swear to god, these armchair politicians are going to be the end of me. Please, grab a clue before you start making ridiculous statements like this.

[Clinton Crusader]

54. JE's first debate EVER compared to 30 yrs experience....

he did VERY well. Even if it's a draw, the edge goes to JE for keeping even and not folding.

I think he did very well.
:kick:

[unfrigginreal]

56. How'd you call the first Kerry/Bush debate?

[bain_sidhe]

57. I'd hoped for better, but he didn't suck

He missed a lot of opportunities to hit back, but landed a few punches of his own. Part of the problem is that Cheney lies as easily as he breathes - and it looks as realistic too. Lotta lies didn't get debunked by Edwards. OTOH, he DID land punches on Halliburton, Iraq, and health care.

All in all, it looked like Edwards hit all the targets he went in aiming for, but missed a lot of "targets of opportunity" that were presented by Cheney's lies.

I'd say he held his own, and that's actually a big thing. I think it put to rest the "lightweight" meme, which is one of the most important things he could have done. Not the ONLY thing he could have done, but it was, on balance, a positive night for the ticket.

IMHO, of course!

**edit for subject-verb agreement!**

[Orangepeel]

58. he was fine. you just expected too much

he wasn't as good as Kerry (how could he be?) and cheney wasn't as bad as bush (how could he be?)

Edwards did what he had to do -- hold his own and play up John Kerry

[TimeToGo]

59. Tie goes to the challenger

[Carolinian]

61. Edwards was great. A gentleman to the core. Doesn't he set a fine

example for our young men to emulate? His performance tonight was everything I hoped for and more.

[smiley_glad_hands]

62. I thought Edwards was Excellant.

He would have been even better if he could have stood up and walked around.

[flaminbats]

63. Edwards exceeded my expectations..

I think the press, most Democrats, and even many Republicans felt Edwards was this unbeatable God who could never be defeated! The last debate between Kerry and * had raised the bar to frightening levels. What shocks the hell out of me is how well he did, despite the fact he was already expected to win.

Unless bin Laden suddenly pops up, I believe this election is now ours to lose.

[incapsulated]

64. You're...

Nuts! Anyone who agrees with you is nuts. DU has gone NUTS! :silly:

[Anarcho-Socialist]

65. The polls disagree with you and so do I

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/09/08/politics/main641817.shtml

A poll of 169 uncommitted voters conducted by CBS News and Knowledge Networks found that 41 percent said Edwards won the debate, versus 29 percent who said Cheney won. Thirty percent said it was a tie.

[Crunchy Frog]

67. I thought that Edwards did quite well,

and I say that as someone who strongly preferred a different VP choice.

I can't believe that I watched the same debate as some people on here.:shrug:

[The Wielding Truth]

68. truthful viewing-Cheney lost when gay daughter issue turned him to mush.

Cheney had me punching the couch. He was spewing his lies so seamlessly.
Then his daughters inclination was addressed very tenderly by Edwards and Cheney withered.
I think reality seeped into his soul and for a split second he breathed the same air as we do.
He lost his will to deceive.
Now if " Lil w" could get his head out of the sand
.. maybe .....
what, he would turn into a real boy?
No. Even if he had a bigger view
it's time for a new top Dawg.
Kerry you're our Big guy now. Back to observations--Anyone see the change as I did?

[enigmatic]

69. That was devastating..

Cheney was speechless..

[ReadTomPaine]

84. I think there may be something to your observation...

I noticed that myself.

RTP

[Duncan Grant]

71. Edwards: I don't think the country can take 4 more years of this

kind of experience.

I liked that one myself. Slam.

[rndmprsn]

72. disagree

think about it a bit and you'll know why.

[henslee]

74. This is masturbatory bluster that wastes DUers energy. If I were a mod...

I'd lock it on sheer idiocy and meaninglessness. I just saw another one just like it.

[Bucky]

81. Huh? Mods don't police opinions. They enforce rules, not the party line.

It's okay to critique the guy's performance. That's not disloyalty. Don't be scared of honest criticism, please. That's the president's job.

[henslee]

89. If you want to call this "pass me the bong" remark a critique, uh, go

right ahead.

[KTM]

76. Sadly I agree

I expected a LOT more from Edwards.. I expected the skilled lawyer who won so many cases would be able to steer more, would be more prepared to negate specific lies, and more literate in his replies.

[Carolab]

77. I wouldn't judge unless

you've ever been in a similar situation. Have you EVER gone head-to-head in a public setting--like a business meeting--with a PATHOLOGICAL LIAR? I have, and it is just so hard to go up against. For every lie they tell, you have to keep up with a fact, and it is very, very difficult to counter and still keep the message on track. Edwards did a beautiful job.

[vetwife]

78. My take to the editors

John Edwards spoke believable truth. Cheney clearly misrepresented the truth and this administration does not have the ability to level with the American people . Articulate with wording especially when the american people know that it is a lie, does not a winner make.

It was also the writer's opinion that Cheney was grumpy and was not even cordial to the Senator. What do you expect from a man who uses the F word when addressing senators?

Amanda

[Julian English]

79. Fortunately, the polls disagree with your trolling

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/09/08/politics/main ...

A CBS News poll of 178 uncommitted voters found that 41 percent said Edwards won the debate, versus 28 percent who said Cheney won. Thirty-one percent said it was a tie.

A majority of uncommitted voters came away from the debate believing that both men could be an effective president if needed. More of those surveyed (76 percent) said they liked Edwards personally than said they liked Cheney (53 percent).

[Bucky]

80. Whoa, easy on the McCarthyism, friend. Disagreeing isn't trolling

If, according to the poll you cite, 31% said it was a tie and 28% said Cheney won, then saying Edwards didn't win is a reasonable point of view.

[Swamp Rat]

82. John Edwards won the debate.

Cheney was only successful at keeping his human form in check for the duration of the debate.

[chaska]

85. Cheney won...

with the muck eating slugs that make up the gop base.

That's the question: 'won with whom?' Edwards got women, no question. Cheney just came off as mean. Edwards also got the undecideds. These people don't pay as much attentionas we do, and this was possibly their first exposure to Edwards. They were surprised that he was that on the ball. Frankly, I was surprised.

Cheney got in some good shots (so did Edwards), but he just reinforced his base, nothing more.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

87. Edwards didn't give a stellar performance but he held his own

He's clearly demonstrated that he's qualified to be VP, unlike Bush in his debate who came off like someone unfit to operate a cash register at the 7-11. The problem for Cheney (and why Edwards won the debate) is not as much because of Edwards but because of Cheney himself. Cheney lied and the people know it. He misled about Zarkawi being sheltered in Saddam's Iraq and flat out lied about having never proposed that there was a connection between Saddam and Al Qaeda. The lies are what will be remembered about this debate. The lies are the Al Gore sighs or the George Bush grimaces of this debate.

More importantly, though, I think the Cheney whoring was so extreme on the networks and so very obvious, especially on MSNBC, that an anti-Cheney vote in the on-line polls was a backlash.

[chaska]

88. I think the biggest, most important thing about this debate is...

that Cheney was unable to stop the Kerry mo (momentum). Edwards may even have succeeded in pushing it up a notch.

[Moderator]

90. locking. "flame away" = flame bait