Sorry but..........I thought Cheney won the debate.

[sidwill]

I gotta call em as I see em, Cheney made Edwards look like a lightweight.

I just hope that Cheney's overall repulsiveness and JE's natural charm made the sheeple see it the other way.

[movonne]

1. Yeah sure!!!!

[enigmatic]

2. Hey, I thought Edwards won!

On both style and substance, while Cheney muttered to himself most of the night.

[sidwill]

I hope the people...

saw it that way too.

[enigmatic]

16. They did.

[soothsayer]

3. feh

[Mortos]

4. Unfortunately

I agree. Not fun, not popular but true. But there is an upside. Read this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x980744

[maveric]

5. Did you not wear your glasses.

Explain to me how he made Edwards look like a "lightweight"?

[ChocolateSaltyBalls]

31. I don't know whether or not Edwards............

made Cheney 'look' like a lightweight, but since I listened and didn't watch the debate, Cheney certainly made Edwards 'sound' like one.

I can now understand why people who listened to the Nixon/Kennedy on the radio thought Nixon won, and those who saw it on T.V. thought Kennedy won.

[JimmyJazz]

45. again, back up your opinion with examples -- otherwise you are

just flinging poo like so many others we know!

[savistocate]

71. You'd have to begin on the Right

liking those positions to start, repeated in drone echo chamber from Hell to conclude Cheeney won it.

Projection of Sen Edwards..stopping Dick in his tracks on their tired worn fabrications giving rosie picture on Mess-opotamia.
We can't afford "more of this 'experience'". S t i l l -Not being straight witht the American people.

[leftofthedial]

6. stop it! you're making me laugh!

you're either:

1. something I can't name according to DU rules
2. kidding
3. someone who slept through the debate

[hlthe2b]

7. Yeah, right.....

Darth Vader got some licks in, but Edwards in no way looked like a lightweight. Edwards clearly got under Cheney's skin on repeated occasions-- leaving Cheney with no reply.

[juajen]

8. Really!

The only people who could possibly think Cheney won that debate is if they believed the lies coming out of his mouth.

[atre]

13. I agree

No one can articulate WHY they think Cheney won... It's all "intangibles" or "immeasurables."

[Lex]

9. Whatever. Opinions are worth what we pay for 'em I guess.

[sidwill]

24. I don't understand the animosity........

Oh well, so much for tolerance on DU.

[JimmyJazz]

51. tolerance exists here. we respect opinions, but they have to

be backed by some examples - not even facts, just examples to back your opinions otherwise you sound like, well, kinda like, "other" people we know.

[henslee]

65. Agree. Sid, why not back up your statment instead of feeling persecuted?

You started this thread. Add to it with specifics. Also, at least at DU, people are willing to discuss both sides of an issue. Not the same situation at other boards my friend.

Also, why not respond to my point... Didn't JE pass his litmus test?

[Duncan Grant]

59. No Pity. You made your bed...don't blame it on DU.

You knew exactly what you were doing sidwill. :nopity:

[JimmyJazz]

I think we gotta threefer going here - et tu?

[okieinpain]

10. at the worse it was a tie. in my bias opinion edwards was the one

stating facts at the end. cheney looked tired and passed on some questions.

[Guaranteed]

11. You need to watch the debate again. nt

[apnu]

12. I STRONGLY disagree

Edwards had the facts and the truth on his side. Cheney lies. Hell, factschecks.com, as Dickie mentioned, doesn't even exist!

[sugargoose]

46. OMG-Cheney directed us to an anti-* site!

factcheck.com directs to the Soros website. Headline is:President * is endangering our safety, hurting our vital interests, & undermining American values.

WOW.........is he a mole?

[sugargoose]

50. Or, if you spell it the other way......

Factscheck.com

Redirects to buzzflash with headline

The Vice-Presidential Debate: Dick Cheney's House of Lies --
A BuzzFlash Editorial. (Edwards is Clobbering Cheney in the Online Polls Tuesday Night.)


LMAO
I hope millions look it up like he told them to!

[Ksec]

14. stfu

[snowbear]

15. Sidsmell

Sidwell posted his thoughts, then fled for the hills..

What's up with that? :eyes:

[JimmyJazz]

60. I think he's leaving chocolatesaltyballs to fend for himself

[LynnTheDem]

125. "SidSMELL"???

Wow. I was sure this was the PROGRESSIVES board.

[Texas_Dem]

17. Cheney told some really good lies. Don't be fooled by

all of that.

[funky_bug]

18. What is it they say over in freeperville...oh yes... "ZOT"

Nice try though

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dennis4868]

55. ummmm.....

"AMERICA CANNOT TAKE ANOTHER 4 YEARS OF YOUR EXPERIENCE."

John Edwards

[calimary]

118. THIS was a great line.

There was another, too, something like "bush said he was going to be a uniter, not a divider. Have you ever seen America more divided?"

But cheney left some holes that Edwards could have driven a battering ram through, and he didn't take advantage of them. He should have laughed more easily when asked if the trial lawyer dissing affected him personally. Too serious about that and he could have scored some style points.

Just as bush lost an advantage in the two or three times he said versions of "I agree with my opponent that..." It just seems to me as a sheer observer here that you should just NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER do that in a debate. You just shouldn't. Neither should Edwards have made a reference, three times, to "...the vice president talked about this a few minutes ago..." NO, JOHN! Don't do that! Do NOT acknowledge ANYTHING from your opponent! EVER!!! Refer to something that he said that in ANY way could be misconstrued as casting it in a favorable light.

What's helpful, on the other hand, is how the so-called network "truth squads" are coming out and showing how, more than Edwards, cheney played pretty fast and loose with a lot of facts. Like the (would-be) killer line that turns out not to be - the "it's the first time I've ever seen you, and I've been president of the senate as vp" shit that turns out to be WRONG - per Aaron Brown showing a photo of cheney and Edwards at a Senate prayer breakfast among other events. Just yanks the teeth out of what otherwise would have been a really killer zinger on cheney's part. But it - uh - just happens to be - uh - another LIE.

THANKFULLY, Edwards mentioned Halliburton a couple of times. But he shoulda done more than mention it. Especially when cheney tried to dismiss it as just a smoke screen, Edwards should have smacked him with it, again, going farther with it, reiterating it, embellishing on it, and talking about all the money that Halliburton got paid - that's now MISSING.

Furthermore, I would give almost ANYTHING to hear one of our guys sucker-punch bush or cheney when they start in on that crap about how Kerry/Edwards are dissing our allies or calling Allawi a puppet (how dare they, 'eh?) or calling it the "Coalition of the Bribed" - by saying "Two words: OLD EUROPE." Indeed, there was one exchange about that early on in the debate, when I thought cheney scored a few pretty good zingers, and Edwards could have scored an absolute K-O if he'd just said "OLD EUROPE." I am WISHING and PRAYING and HOPING and PLEADING for one of them to bring this up! WHY DON'T THEY? Kerry missed an opportunity to do it last Thursday night. MAYBE he'll pull that rabbit out of the hat before this is over.

Anyway, I just think Edwards could have done a LOT better, and scored a LOT more points. He missed a surprising number of opportunities to flatten cheney. I have a great deal of faith in Edwards. I think he's a great guy. I think he'll make a TERRIFIC vice president, beyond just the fact that a toadstool would be better than the liar and cheat and pirate and profiteer and war criminal we have in there now. But JEEZ! I dunno - TOO MUCH Mr. Nice Guy? He's GOTTA be more ferocious than this. He didn't fall on his face, but he didn't push us farther forward as I'd hoped. We didn't lose anything but we sure didn't gain, either. He's still EMINENTLY more likeable than cheney, even if all he'd have done was to sit there like a meatball on a plate. And he doesn't have the evil, calculating (and failing) heart that cheney does. He missed a number of opportunities to paint cheney as the liar, deceiver, manipulator. In fact, he could have pointed up the many times that cheney pulls the strings in this regime like a puppeteer. Should have POUNDED on the realities in Iraq (and ALL the evidence from the reports on the ground to Allawi's speech to his own government) and didn't, plus the sneaky shit with the secret energy task force papers and the misrepresentations on Iraq (WHY didn't he give specifics and specific quotes of cheney's to hang around cheney's neck - "yes there are WMDS. We know where they are")?

I, too, have to be honest about the job Edwards did tonight. I love John Edwards. I support him. I'm certainly voting for him, and I did so on all the online polls that I could so far. But my gut reaction, brothers and sisters, boils down to one word: Underwhelming.

[JimmyJazz]

67. WTF - high level government experience -- he can't even

remember meeting his opponent when clearly he did.

EE it Time regarding Lynne Cheney: I never met a woman with whom I had less in common.


30 years of lying and lining his pockets with millions at the expense of the common people -- would you like to discuss Brown & Root with me?

[NewYorkerfromMass]

92. "high level government experience"... WTF?

so where does that impressive title fall on a guy's resume?

CLUE: America can't afford anymore "catastrohpic successes" by these 2 bozos.

[tishaLA]

105. What an odd comment to make

[DixieDem]

116. Darn it! I want to know what "deleted message" said....

Oh well... Whatever it was, I hope you put him/her in his/her place!

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

20. Here's my seven person sheeple focus group thread

read it and be happy!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x980844

[Hubert Flottz]

Nise Try!

[]<*

[BigBigBear]

21. Cheney looked less desperate than Bush

and Edwards look a little less nimble than Kerry.

I'd say for not taking Cheney's crap, Edwards by a nose. Cheney did well, but Edwards showed pluck and a fearlessness I didn't expect from him.

[JimmyJazz]

75. He stumbled just a bit (with some help from the moderator)

covered it with his charm and closed extremely well. Does anyone really believe Cheney and Edwards have a lot in common with regard to their backgrounds - what did Cheney say? Somewhat modest background? That sounds like a euphemism to me for "pretty well off."

Anyone have the info? I'm too lazy to google.

[henslee]

22. Every man has an opin. but... even the talking heads called in a draw.

Past the repulsiveness and the natural charm, this debate was a really a chance for folks to check out JE under pressure and I think he did well. No slip ups. Plenty of facts. Did not freeze. STood up for himself and JK. Stayed on point. It went just fine for JE. No need to deliver a KO punch and overshadow JK.

[daydreamer]

33. your are right.

I think JE won by large margin.

[brooklynite]

38. Important - Its not just the initial assessment

Both sides will attempt to influence the result tomorrow through Friday via talk radio, cable news, op-eds, etc. Don't forget, Gore "won" the first debate immedately afterwards, but opinions changed in the following days. The Reps got stung by the reaction to Bush's first outing against Kerry; they won't make the same mistake twice.

[JimmyJazz]

23. do you want to back up your opinion with some examples or

do you just want to throw some inflammatory comments into the wind and see what they hit?

[redstateblues]

36. Pretty Good Try- Very Disciplined To Get 285 Posts In Advance

of your turd bomb

[JimmyJazz]

39. not me - wrong one, dear -- try again, I'm on your side

[Spiffarino]

25. If the people pay no attention

...they might see it that way. If they look around even a little bit, they'll realize Cheney is a serial liar. Edwards wins.

[sandnsea]

26. Impressed by lies and testosterone?

Got a father figure complex? If you chopped out the man's lies, he would have said "thank you Gwen" and well, "thank you Gwen" and that would have been it.

[rwenos]

27. Sorry, Mate, You Missed the Whole Point

The whole point is Cheney LIED. He lied about his linkage of Saddam to al Qaeda. He lied about tax cuts. He lied about Kerry's record in the Senate. He lied about Edwards' record in the Senate.

You took what Cheney said at face value. You have neglected to consider the fact that he <b>LIED!</b>

[daydreamer]

37. 100% Agree

[JimmyJazz]

90. welcome to du

:hi:

[indie_voter]

28. You are wrong.

ARGGGG. I am sick of these type of posts.

AND I don't have 500 posts to my credit.

GET A CHENEY GRIP.

[sidwill]

47. Sorry you people feel the need to jump down my throat.

But I guess thats just the price you pay for sharing your opinion honestly.

[enigmatic]

53. Oh, please..

Stop w/ the crying and get a thicker skin. You think Cheney won, tell us WHY he won in your eyes, then we can have something to debate..

[JimmyJazz]

83. again, it is not your opinion that is the issue - you are entitled

to it, but it and you would have more credibility if you would back you opinion with some examples. I'm not asking for God to come down from the mountain and engrave it on stone - just tell us why you think that. Geez, how hard is that?

[SoCalDemocrat]

94. You must of been awed by Cheneys lie a minute

I lost track counting the lies Cheney was belting out.

[daydreamer]

49. Your are definitly right

Whoever think Cheney won should get some grip of reality.

[JimmyJazz]

87. 500 isn't some magic number - most of my posts are stupid

one liners in the lounge or posting "lol" because I can't resist telling someone they made my stomach hurt from laughing. Put your opinion out there, dear.

Some people have their "rules of thumb," but others don't

[PSU84]

29. Well, that would put you in the minority. eom

[Mizmoon]

30. All 286 posts of you thinks that, ey

I'm so convinced.

[carpetbagger]

54. Once I had 286 posts, too.

I think it was around the time that I was the great naysayer to the "we're going to take back the house and Senate" club.

Edit: it was 2002. As of today I think we might just do it.

[seabeyond]

32. i dont agree, but maybe because i know all the lies

and i dont give good lying as a win in a debate. i thought kerry did excellent, thought he kicked ass, and i see it as a clear win for him

[merh]

34. You could only believe f'uchency won if you believe his lies

and if you failed to catch on to his dodges of important issues!
Were we talking about jobs? Edwards asked the moderator, Mod replies yes - I thought so, he never responded to jobs, maybe we can discuss education later. (paraphrased)

Go away you bother me....

[Walt Starr]

35. Sorry but, do I know you?

No, didn't thinks so.

[Carolinian]

40. You are wrong. Cheney was good. Edwards was great. Great>good!

[dumpster_baby]

42. but you are a Politics wonk. Most people just rely on image, and feelings

JE won it on image, feelings, etc. Also, looking at the clips of the debate, his soundbites are far better than Cheney's soundbites.

JE won. But he did it while sounding more like a Republican than a Democrat. I really have a lot less enthusiasm for the ticket after hearing him try to channel Ronald Reagan for half the debate....

[scarface2004]

43. cheney is

full of shit!!! fuck him!!

[JimmyJazz]

91. See sidwell, that's what I'm talking about! A well thought

out argument backed by examples!

:7

(sorry couldn't resist - refer to profile for further details)

[ochazuke]

44. Sure, Edwards could have done better, but he did better than Dick.

Kerry could have done better, too. But the shrub so totally melted down than we didn't notice.

Online polls are doing well for us: 77-18 on CNN at 19:43 ET with 164,000 votes.

[DixieDem]

48. HUH??? There is no way in HELL that Cheney won that debate!!!

My god woman (or man???) Get yourself together, mkay?

[daydreamer]

52. There you go

:kick:

[DixieDem]

117. thanks... I think ;-)

[jrthin]

56. I think we watched a different debate. n/t

[Domitan]

57. Yes, it was quite close

but Cheney gets major deductions for repeating lies and carrying on that "I'll do it the same way again in Iraq if I could" line.

Yes, Cheney was more smooth and did not make a fool out of himself. Yes, Edwards had some rough moments but had major points as well. Edge goes to Edwards.

[DixieDem]

113. Really? You think it was close?

I'd love to debate this issue...

>>> Yes, Cheney was more smooth and did not make a fool of himself.

Okay, I'm laughing my ass off right now... Please give me a good reason to stop!!!

>>> Yes, Edwards had some rough moments but had major points as well.

I watched the entire debate and I can't recall any rough moments with Edwards. Please elaborate???

I'd love to debate this with you... LMK

[Domitan]

129. Let me clarify

I should have added that Cheney was more smooth and did not make a fool out of himself compared to Bush last Thursday. Looking back, I can see how readers can see that I was comparing Cheney to Edwards last night.

As for the rough moments, Edwards had many good offense shots. But compared to Kerry's nearly perfect defense last week, he was more open to taking shots himself. I just thought that Edwards was not as smooth and polished like Kerry was last Thursday, but regardless held himself well. Cheney, unlike Bush and his repetitious mantras, threw out multitudes of stated points and "facts" (many of them were distortions and falsehoods, but that's known by intelligent viewers like us...much less known by the politically naive majority) in a "reasoned" manner. Edwards shot back several times that Cheney was distorting records. However, I feel that Edwards did not use enough factual zingers to refute Cheney's distortions, especially in regards to his own record. Cheney said that Edwards did not show up often in senate meetings (calling him "Senator Gone"). Edwards would need more to cry foul that Cheney was BSing us all. Also, Cheney said that he never saw Edwards in person until tonight. It would have been nice if Edwards quipped soon afterwards that Cheney forgot that they met at a breakfast meeting a few years ago and then left it at that. Those points aside, I think Edwards did very well to hammer the point that Cheney and Bush were not straight with the American people in regards to the Iraq War.

If we are going to judge Bush by his unflattering body language and nonverbal nuances and reactions to Kerry's words, then we need to judge other candidates by their body languages as well. Kerry was superb in that respect last week...remaining very cool. Bear in mind, I think Edwards' nonverbal behaviour was far superior to Bush...but I can see how he left himself open to criticism by those who want to tear him down (those same people can't find much about Kerry last Thursday). There were a few moments that I sensed that Edwards looked too flustered or made a few expressions that could be interpreted as negative (e.g., like Bush's look of contortions at a number of remarks). That did not happen too often, but it was noticeable. Maybe it's just me, but Edwards' constant blinking drives me crazy (yes, Cheney was quite the blinker himself). Then again, Edward's overall charm seems to fortunately make many forget those "imperfect" moments.

Bottom line: Kerry looked much more presidential than Edwards who DOES have a very bright future, especially with more seasoning down the road.

[Domitan]

130. In addition,

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/special/president/debates/press.pundits/results.html

CNN's lefty rep Paul Begala called it very close too, as did other pundits.

Results from the crowd (remember CNN readers gave Edwards the win by a super margin) gave Edwards B+ and Cheney B-

Funny that I'm not the only one who called it a close game, but gave Edwards the edge.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

58. Good thing you're in a decidedly small minority, isn't it?....

Edwards cleaned Cheney's clock, factually as well as any other way you want to slice it.

[DixieDem]

114. No doubt about it! You called it right!

[Geek_Girl]

61. Cheney won on Style

Edwards won on substance. Most middle class Americans will relate better to Edwards than Cheney. So in effect Cheney lost and Edwards kicked his ass.

Edwards spoke to America Cheney spoke to his own, the elite and I think that came out in this debate, which is not good for Bush/Cheney. Cheney needed to reach swing voters and he didn't accomplish it. This debate helps Kerry Edwards more than Bush Cheney. I call it as I see it and unless the media and GOP do some major spinning and distorting this is a victory for the Kerry Edwards ticket

[progressivebydesign]

97. I think Edwards won on style.. Cheney was too mean, too angry..

He slouched and was spitting when he talked.

[sidwill]

62. Although I'm happy that y'all feel that Edwards won.

I think that it was pretty clear that despite Cheney's almost constant dissembling r.e. Iraq, he conveyed his lies with much more certainty and conviction than Edwards.

It seemed to me that edwards simply parroted the campaign talking points without displaying any really deep grasp of the details.


Personally I would have like Kerry/Edwards to have taken a moral stance against the war and not just try to "out-tough" the war mongers.

[VotefurKerry]

64. Sorry bud

Do not critize our candidates.

That is counterproductive.

[sidwill]

68. Hows that "bud'?

Did you just come over from Freeperville where they believe that their candidates can never do anything wrong and that they are above reproach always?

Can't you see the parallel between criticizing my right to disagree with the Neocons telling us that we are unpatriotic for dissenting about the war?

[henslee]

85. BACK IT UP WITH SPECIFICS. IF NOT QUIT BEING A WHINEY PUNK.

[jeff_thompson]

63. I Strongly Disagree

Both gave as good as they got, but Edwards was the man who had plans for the future and showed he cared about real people. JE acquitted himself well against the wiley old pol. Good work, I say.

[JimmyJazz]

102. hello and welcome to du

:hi:

[VOX]

127. Welcome to DU, jt!

Excellent post.

:toast:

[Cleita]

66. Whaaat!

Cheney started off with the lies, then he tried ad hominem attacks, and finally he tried to interject the flip flop propaganda. There was nothing winning in his tactics, his information and his below the belt jabs at Edward's senate record. Desperation.

See sometimes it does pay to tell the truth.

[H2O Man]

69. It's likely that if you wanted Cheney

you could convince yourself of exactly what you said. But people who support Edwards, or who were uindecided, saw Edwards win clearly and decisively.

[undercover_brother]

70. Compared to Bush, anyone would have kicked ass

Tonight's debate was average at best. Those who thought the VP would fall apart like Bush did in his debate were mistaken. You gotta remember that the VP has been steering the Executive policy decisions the last 4 years. Bush did poorly in his debate because he is the front man and has little understanding of the policies he campaigns on. We should have expected Cheney to not fall apart and deliver his average debate performance.

[sidwill]

76. Agreed.

Bush couldn't debate his way out of a paper bag.

I guess in the end all that will really matter is JFK handing Bush another beatdown.

[JimmyJazz]

93. Can I just tell you that with that screen name and that number of

posts, you might want to try a topic that's a little less heated or at least try to convince us and yourself that you are on our side.

[undercover_brother]

112. get back to me when you get your star next to your name

[JimmyJazz]

131. Mea culpa - I have a star - but your screen name is deceiving

I would have checked your profile for how long you had been here, since I do know people change screen names, but I didn't see it. Again, accept my apology please.

[carpetbagger]

72. I thought it too, but thought it a Pyrrhic victory. Glad I'm wrong.

I thought that Cheney had thrown out the last shovel of bullsht and heaped it on America, kind of like the coming Orange Alert (my vote in the pool is October 28).

However, people don't seem to be believing him any more. I was heartened at the CBS and ABC polls, which show pretty much a draw. It raises the bar for Bush, puts out a good chunk of lies and denials that Bush will have to answer, and Cheney's big line will go flat (never met Edwards in the Senate), just as if Lloyd Bentsen had never met Jack Kennedy.

Edwards, in my opinion, never did well in this type of format. His strengths are his stump speech and his TV-spot image. And if he becomes president, he'll give one hell of a State of the Union. But all I wanted was for him to hold his own. And he did, forcing Cheney to commit Bush even further to "Iraq is peachy".

And by accusing Kerry once again of having no plans, he threw a hanging fastball for the coming debates.

[JimmyJazz]

95. Is it me or did someone drop a roach bomb on this thread!!!!

I was asking for your opinion, not accusing you!

[AuntPatsy]

73. I think you failed to realize the lies that Cheney was caught

in many times by Edwards. If you feel that Cheney won because of how good one lies even in the face of the truth presenting itself so easily, than I would suggest you watch it again...I was again pleased with the debate, from both candidates as far as such limited debating skills were actually used.

I have to admit, Edwards can work wonders but showing me an actual human side of Cheney I thought him incapable of after he thanked Edwards for the comment on Cheney's daughter...

Cnn is being pretty fair in it's coverage unlike MSNBC so if you cannot stomach the obvious blantant disregard for a fair commentary following the debate, bypass MSNBC, Reagan is very outnumbered and I wish he would be more on board instead of constantly smiling sheepishly and not forcing his arguments as I know he is capable of..

In my opinion, Edwards far outweighed my expectations, he was clearly a winner if one is choosing to see truth that was clearly on his side an upfront reason to vote in this election...

If I want drama I would watch soaps...I want to hear the truth not more spinning and misleading commentary and Edwards delivered...

[WI_DEM]

74. While I disagree with Sidwell and think Edwards won

in a much tougher debate than Kerry faced with the chimp, I don't think people should jump down his/her throat for disagreeing with the vast majority. This person has been here and posted over 200 times so is not some freeper--they are pretty easy to spot.

[sidwill]

86. Thank you.

I appreciate your understanding and kindness, although I don't mind getting flamed all that much.

I really, really want to believe the overwhelming majority of the posts, and I really, really, REALLY, hope that the majority of the country saw the deabte through your eyes.

I just saw what I saw and felt Cheney won.

[JimmyJazz]

99. okay this is the final time. Your Honor, would you please

instruct the witness to provide even one example to back his inflammatory comments? Just one and I will be satisfied.

[henslee]

107. No WI_DEM, his are vanity posts... he will not back up his spewage.

He is being called on his shit annd aint putting up. The issue is not whether or not hes a freep. The issue is whether or not he is a joke. But keep on defending him.

[maveric]

77. Hey sidwill, why dont you explain to us how and why Cheney won.

You've been reduced to only defending yourself on this board.
All hat and no cattle. Just like bu$h.

[tinrobot]

78. Kerry had a TKO against Bush

Edwards squeaked by on points.

Cheney also made Bush look like an idiot by being so much better at debating.

[The Wielding Truth]

79. Cheney lost, but it was quite a show.

[dave502d]

80. Edwards went after voters,

Cheney look like a undertaker.

[bloom]

81. NOPE

Cheney did not win

[fujiyama]

82. Edwards made it clear

that even though Cheney has lots of experience that "experience" is mostly in lying, cheating, and ripping off the government. He hit the Halliburton thing well.

He also brought up Cheney's own record, which was a smart thing to do. For all this time people have been hearing the GOP's distortions of Kerry's record. Edwards showed Cheney to be a neanderthal and completely out of touch...At the minumum he helped with the base here.

Edwards may not have kicked Cheney's ass the way Kerry kicked Shrub's, but that's to be expected. Cheney is crooked, but is definetely much cannier than Bush. One thing impression many will come away with this debate is that Cheney is the one in charge here.

[hansolsen]

84. Cheney came across 100 times smarter than Bush, Edwards came across

smarter than Cheney. Cheney came across tough and angry and if you like tough he won. Edwards came across as brilliant,warm and honest. I like that, so I thought he won.

[jdots]

101. Edwards takes on the " Dick"

Considering Edwards could have rendered Mr. Haloburton into a pile of rubble in a court room.I thought he was tactfull taking on this country's white collar crime poster boy without making him a martyr for the neo-cons .A good opening statement for a jury.

[MODemocrat]

88. They're for Cheney, why would they see it the other way?

If being over bearing was the key to winning the debate, then, Cheney probably won; however, he was lying on every subject, and Edwards debunked all of them, one by one. Edwards is so good looking, he could almost mesmerize me.

[Julian English]

89. It's ok--this poll says Edwards won!

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/09/08/politics/main...

A CBS News poll of 178 uncommitted voters found that 41 percent said Edwards won the debate, versus 28 percent who said Cheney won. Thirty-one percent said it was a tie.

A majority of uncommitted voters came away from the debate believing that both men could be an effective president if needed. More of those surveyed (76 percent) said they liked Edwards personally than said they liked Cheney (53 percent).

[sidwill]

100. Thats great news....

I hope that all the polling breaks that way and that the media spins it that way as well.

What I don't get is the animosity thats being directed towards me.

I have been asked for specifics, I don't enjoy pointing out Cheney's pluses but I'll do it because its been requested of me:

A. Edwards seemed fidgety and nervous while Cheney although toad like and grotesque seemed calm and more self assured, especially while talking about Iraq.

B. He got in the zinger about never having met Edwards. Like it or not this soundbite will be played adnauseum by the corporate media.

C. Finally I blame Edwards for not doing a good job on the following: Not sticking it to Cheney for Halliburton's subsidiaries doing business with Iran, not sticking it to Cheney for "flip-flopping re: regime change in Iraq reversing Bush's dad's policy at the end of GWI, NOT taking a stance on gay marriage that makes friggin sense (does anybody have any doubt whatsoever that in reality Edwards DOES support gay marriage but takes this tweener stance to not alienate mid America), AND ESPECIALLY NOT TAKING A MORAL STANCE ON THE IRAQ INVASION!!!!! We killed a ton of people over a lie and our own candidates are trying to play "whos tougher with the war dogs themselves.

I would have liked to see KE lead on this issue instead of just being Bushlite on it.

[enigmatic]

103. The statement about not meeting Edwards is a lie..

And Cheney's being ripped on cable and the internet about right now..

[sidwill]

108. Good

Thats great. Thats big.

Subtract that point from Cheney and all of a sudden he doesn't look as good.

I'll take it.

[JimmyJazz]

109. Better.

Now we have something with which to work although I am tired from the other peripheral banter so I will keep my comments short.

2 seconds after the debate it was debunked that the two never met. EE stated in Time magazine that they all had met and she "never met a woman with whom she had less in common" when asked about Lynne Cheney.

I thought Edwards did a sufficient job sticking it to Cheney about Halliburton - it's a two minute answer and unless you have an historical familiarity with Halliburton, Dresser, Brown & Root, etc. you will get bogged down in the details. Heck, I got lost with some of the crap Cheney was dishing out and I am familiar with these dealings.

Edwards stand on gay marriage mirrors my own, so I don't see the problem. Gays need to have some rights granted to them so that if, for example, they are on their deathbed, their partner can make decisions for them and not some family member with whom they are estranged as a result of their homosexuality.

As far as taking a moral stand - you have a point, but I think it's too much of a hot button issue and I will defer comment to someone else.

[sidwill]

111. I have to admit

As I read these posts and bop around on the web to other sites it appears as though my perception of the debate result might not shared by the majority.

And for that I am thankful.

The Cheney lie might end up being huge, it may (if exploited correctly by the Kerry campaign) end up being the defining moment of the campaign ESPECIALLY because when Cheney laid that zinger on JE I thought it was gonna turn out to be THE soundbite everybody heard.

Now it defintely will....but for different reasons heee--heeee

[LittleClarkie]

96. Do you mean in the same way that Gore won?

Even if he scored on substance, which I am not conceeding, he looked terrible doing it. "Winning" the debate doesn't always matter we have discovered.

Kerry managed to win handily AND look good doing it.

Kerry/Edwards: Substance AND style. Sigh, my heros.

[daveskilt]

98. cheney won a few points - but edwards won overall

cheney got points simply for being articulate and not the drooling buffoon bush was. cheney handled numbers and facts well to his advantage and to anyone who (unlike me screaming liar at my TV) didn't know he was lying (and who would tell them - chris matthews? please) those could be points

edwards wins on these points - bushco are experienced yes but 4 years of screwups isnt too hot.
- halliburton is a good button to push
- the cheney record on voting to steal food from old ladies and spit on MLK is damning
- FINALLY someone mentions the fact that Kerry voted on 6 times the tax cuts of tax hikes
- FINALLY someone mentions the fact that Kerry voted to cut defemse spending on bills that cheney proposed in the first place!

edwards did look a bit weak on the whole could he be president thing - he was my second choice in the primaries but he sure didnt look anything like Kerry did last week in terms of being presidential

but darth cheney was more mr burns than anything - I mean "AIDS killed the productive workers and hurt the economy" oh yeah and its bad for non economic reasons too I suppose???

[foo_bar]

104. Cheney won the "debate", lost the "public appearance"

Cheney overcame "expectations" by appearing less like an alien lizard than usual (with props to Swamp Rat). But Edwards excels at the "halo effect" as Cheney effects the aura of an apartheid-era prime minister.

[ParanoidPat]

106. Funny no one else in any of the national polls seems to agree....

.....with you! Now why would that be? :shrug: :evilgrin:

Buh Bye! :hi:

[pkanalyst]

110. BULL$H1T!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!NT

[Swamp Rat]

115. John Edwards won the debate.

Cheney was only successful at keeping his human form in check for the duration of the debate.

[Name removed]

119. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Guaranteed]

122. Uhh..certainly NOT.

The whores on MSNBC were the ONLY ones who "called it" for Cheney, and many of them didn't.

Look at the fucking polls.

[Bridget Burke]

123. Got any evidence?

Who, exactly, has called it for Cheney?

[VOX]

128. Gone away. Far, far away.

RIP.

[Name removed]

120. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

121. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[unfrigginreal]

124. Hahaha...you muffed it dude.

[jdots]

126. Edwards takes his time

isn't the point of a debate far from what candidates do ? a topic is picked like lard ,and two people debate about it.This was not a debate about say war profitering or loss of our middle class.This was a good guy against a bad guy,bad guys can win debates.If Cheney had ripped Edwards apart on some debate point i wouldn't care.Edwards is for justice and Cheney is a neo con.The debate would have been interesting if had been about what neo cons are.This was just politics and media snappy patter.

[npincus]

132. Cheney made Bush look LESS presidential- if that's possible

My husband (a Japanese national who can't vote here) made this coment when I asked him what he thought about the debate: "Cheney is the real president". And that's all. Cheney's performance diminished Bush from a Mini-me to a Mini-mini-me.

I think Edwards did very well, and Cheney was Cheney.

[Tight_rope]

133. Crackhead freepers never give up!

[JimmyJazz]

134. Hey - we got two on one thread alone! lol

[JimmyJazz]

135. Here's the proof to back up my statements:

There’s just one problem with confident delivery and correcting your opponent: you’d better get your own facts straight. Cheney castigated Edwards for saying there was no connection between the 9/11 attacks and Iraq. "The senator has got his facts wrong," Cheney declared. "I have not suggested there's a connection between Iraq and 9/11." That would be fine if Cheney hadn’t appeared on "Meet the Press" a year ago to describe that very connection. The war, he said, was "a major blow right at the heart of the base, if you will, the geographic base of the terrorists who have had us under assault now for many years, but most especially on 9/11." Cheney also lambasted Edwards for failing to show up at the Senate, saying: "The first time I ever met you was when you walked on the stage tonight." One small problem for vice presidents is the ready availability of transcripts and news reports. Those awkward pieces of information prove the two men met in and out of the Senate, not least when Edwards escorted the new senator for North Carolina, Elizabeth Dole, as she was sworn in by Cheney just last year.
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6190392/site/newsweek/