Do "They" really want to win? Josh Marshall posts interesting observation.

[KoKo]

I posted this a.m. asking why Cheney lied so much last night, and I didn't really get an answer that I thought pushed it far enough. Most people felt that "they" lie so much they don't know what the truth is.

I was still wondering when I went over to TPM to check out what Josh thought, and here's an interesting comment from him, that was I think what I was trying to get at but couldn't quite get my mind around.

Between Bush's terrible performance and Cheney's lying lackluster performance last night...what's going on with them? Is there something "up their sleeve" or do they know "all is lost" and the trials for "war crimes" are looming in the distance?

Here's what Josh says:

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/

I don't usually think much of the sort of comment that I'm about to make. But there was a moment during this 'philosophical' phase of Cheney's performance when I couldn't help but think: 'I just don't know if this guy's heart is really in it. I'm not sure they really want to win.' He was listless. It was like Cheney checked out of the debate about a half hour before Edwards did.


http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/

[cheezus]

1. it was the gay marriage exchange

after that cheney looked like he just wanted it to be over

[michigandem2]

16. I agree after this was brought up..it took the wind out of him

because that is all he was blowing...hot air...

[Supersedeas]

25. yep, that's the moment...but maybe Josh is onto something...

I, too, got the feeling that the rumble of bad news was catching up to the Vice President. For the more superficial types, the news probably does not phase them much, but his body language seemed to suggest that 4 more years of this experience is not part of his plan.

Even before the Constitutional Amendment question, his lack of response to the Bremer revelations was telling to me.

[Doohickie]

30. I noticed that last night

In my post: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=981349&mesg_id=982934

"He decided then and there, when the subject of his daughter came up, that he is sick and tired of working for * and started daydreaming about dove hunting in Texas in the near future.... no more security briefings.... no more covering *'s ass.... aaaaaahhhhh!!!!!"

[Stuckinthebush]

35. I actually felt for old Dick during that exchange

In the end, he was a father who loves his daughter and will not debase her or her relationship for anyone...not even W.

Good for Dick.

Now, on the other stuff...Bad Dick, Bad!

[LittleClarkie]

39. It will be counted to him as righteousness

Family is probably the only thing that he truly cares about. I believe he sincerely loves the wife as well. Sadly, that doesn't make up for being a complete fuck up otherwise.

[Jade Fox]

49. So did I...

He definitely softened afterwards, and his thank you to Edwards seemed
heartfelt.

[ProfessorPlum]

2. I've long thought that Bush really doesn't want it

It's hard work, takes away from his GameBoy time. Plus, he must know in his heart of hearts that he is just a puppet.

[pagerbear]

3. While I can see where their hearts might not be in it

...or they might see defeat coming, I don't give Dubya credit for being as good an actor as this theory would require.

[KittyWampus]

4. Subconsciously, Yes, They Do Want This To Be Over. The Way A Serial Killer

wants to be caught.

They ARE human and their Inner Self is suffering.

[KoKo]

12. That's an interesting thought. Some kind of perverse inner loathing

taking hold that they are responsible for so much death and destruction, and an economic situation in this country so badly mishandled that we will fight for decades to get out of it?

It's hard to imagine that this group allied with some of the meanist folks on the planet..Tom DeLay, Gingrich and Limbaugh come first to my mind would suddenly discover what they have done and have some misgivings about it. :shrug: Doesn't happen often with Dictators and Tyrants...don't know.

[milkyway]

17. Great point! I didn't agree with Josh, but this has the ring of truth

to it.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

5. Thats what I was thinking. I expected the Bushistas to fight like dogs...

to keep their power. I don't understand what is going on here.

[MirrorAshes]

6. This is exactly what I predict Bush will do, too.

It may be subconcious, but his mannerisms in the last debate suggested he just really doesn't even want to win. 2 more 90 minute showdowns with Kerry and I bet he'll be ready to quit. Lets just hope it comes out on live tv.

[DoYouEverWonder]

7. That's exactly

what my husband and I were talking about at lunch today.

Cheney is not that stupid. He knows that we now know about all his lies. He is a tired and sick old man. He could hardly get out of the chair after the debate. He doesn't have the drive for another four years of propping up the Boy King.

[madaboutharry]

13. I love your sig line!!

Thanks for the laugh.

[truth2power]

29. I noticed that.

When it was over, Cheney seemed like he hardly had the strength to get out of the chair. It was obvious.

[RhodaGrits]

42. I thought he seemed tired and lackluster the last 1/2 hr but the

not getting out of his chair thing - it seemed obvious to me that short paunchy Dick did not want to stand side by side with Edwards for physical comparison. He did everything he could to wait til Edwards had moved away.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

8. Well remember Nixon was caught without the ability to pardon

and the military was forewarned not to take orders from him in the final days of his presidency..these people actually DO learn from history...who will they pardon in advance?

[dogtag]

9. I've been speculating for some time that

Shrub is conflicted about the hard work that he can't quite shirk anymore and he'd like to be on permanent vacation, but now after listening to Dr. Death last night, I think he's also conflicted about continuing the farce.

Can you imagine how hard it must be to keep the shrub in line? It has got to suck. Cheney may well be sick and tired. All the chickens are coming home to roost...more bad news every single day. As grasping and corrupt as the Cheney twosome is known to be, they may realize that Uncle Dick can't hold up another four years. He is after all, the president.

[Politicub]

27. The stuff about his daughter has got to hurt him

At least I think it does. He and his family seem to be accepting of his daughter and her partner, at least that's how it appears to me.

I think it's telling that Cheney doesn't agree with Bush and his promotion of the marriage amendment. It means he has to virtually shun his lesbian daughter. That's tough for a parent to do. Maybe he's feeling the sting of that.

But, someone else observed above the the wind was knocked from his sailed during the gay marriage exhange. Me and my partner noticed that too. My b/f even remarked that it looks like Cheney would rather be someplace else.

When someone in your immediate family is part of a minority class of people, it hits home.

[fob]

10. Another comment along the same thought line is when cheney*

remarked that bush* was under no pressure form him because he harbored no furhter political ambitions. WTF? Did he really mean to say that even if they were to win he WOULDN'T run in 2008? How does that help their "must have continuation of admin during wartime" lie?

I agree with the other poster that cheney* seemed to slump after the gay marriage exchange. It was like reality walked up to him and bitchslapped his ass awake for a second, and his past inglorious attitudes then rushed back upon him with ever heavier weight.

EDIT: As for shrubby*, 4 years seems the max he can pay attention to one of his daddy-purchased life simulations.
TANG - entered in 1968, passed on his physical in 1972
Prez - entered in 2000, passed on his physical in 2004(at least is deferring until after November)

[crispini]

14. Yes

"Did he really mean to say that even if they were to win he WOULDN'T run in 2008?"

He has said this repeatedly.

[fob]

24. That's incredible! Does he hate America?

Actually by committnig to leaving it shows a tiny sliver of respect for America.

Do you have any links to these repeated statements?

That destroys their "don't change horses in the middle of an apocolypse" argument right out the window!!

[DemBones DemBones]

38. They're running Jeb in 2008. So saith Falwell. nt

[crispini]

40. Just google

"Cheney 2008" and you'll come up with a bunch of stories, left and right wing sites of all sorts. It's pretty common knowledge his health won't stand up to a run and he has publicly said so.

Here's one from Newsmax.com which on a cursory glance (I just googled it myself) looks like a RW site:

"No one believes, considering Dick Cheney’s fragile health, that he would be a viable candidate in 2008. Cheney himself says he won’t run, describing his vice presidency as "my last job.""

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/7/14/193500.shtml

[Insomnicole]

11. I could almost see this.

Iraq is such a mess that if I were a Republican, I might be consoling myself right now with the notion that if Kerry wins, the Mess-o-Potamia could end up dooming him too and helping to get a Republican back in the White House in 2008.

(That goes double if my pet tinfoil-hat theory is right and Congress is going to try to ram through an amendment letting foreign-born people run for President in time for Ahnuld to run in 2008.)

That being said, Bush has invested so much time in trying to convince the world that he's God's own choice for President that I can't imagine him willingly allowing himself to lose. I think he and Cheney really are just this pathetic when they're forced to own up to all the screwups they've made in the past four years. They're so used to getting away with blatant lies that it's as if it never occurred to Cheney that someone might finally say "Hey, wait a minute -- you did too connect Saddam and 9/11."

[Booster]

19. When things get tough, Bush quits and I believe he wants

to quit now more than ever. Every time he quits, he comes out with more money, etc., so he's done his stint and will be paid the rest of his life - he's ready to quit. They also have caused such a mess both in foreign policy and domestically, that they almost have to have a Dem come in and clean up, like Dems have been doing for years. They figure they'll cut their losses and run Jeb in 4 years, just my opinion.

[KoKo]

56. But, I think they are in deep trouble. They took us to war for lies..it's

gotta have repercussions for them...plus they stole an election and supported Ken Lay...and well....they've done so much.

I don't see how they will just "fade away" into an easy retirement unless it's all "swept under the run." So that would make them want to stay in power to keep all the snakes in the pot with the lid on awhile longer. :shrug:

[Malva Zebrina]

15. Cheny HAS no energy

he is sick. I am getting pretty fed up with these intricate analyses. Whatever happens, Cheney has roped in millions from this war. He will go out with millions, is not billions under his belt. That is the crux of the matter.

There will be NO justice as far as his crimes, as well, there will be NO justice as far a Bush's war crimes.

Why should Cheney care? It is obvious that not a one of them in the Bush administration cares about their country. They are not patriots; they are moneyglots.

It is obvious, Marshall. You need a vacation.

Common sense instead of trying to put forth some intricate, unique and "creative" analysis, prevails over striving to make a name.

Sometimes I think the bloggers are getting too interested in themself.

[KoKo]

28. He didn't wear his usual makeup either so he looked pale and old. Yet

he appeared at some campaign stop with Chimp last week and you could see a spot close to his hairline where the makeup hadn't quite covered. They all know after the Nixon/Kennedy debates that they need to wear some kind of makeup. I've never seen Cheney look so pale..

[grace0418]

18. Cheney certainly seemed checked out

I agree with Josh Marshall about that. But it seemed to me that he just felt utter contempt for the American people, not resignation about an impending loss. If I could've seen a thought bubble over his head it would've said "When I am (or "Bush is" tee-ee) the dictator, I won't have to bother with these stupid debates. My word will be law and I won't have backtalk from piss-ants like John Edwards! Let's just get this over with, shall we?"

As to why they lie so much... that question I cannot answer.

[Lexingtonian]

20. I think they consider the game pretty hopeless now

There was that photo of Karen Hughes during the debate- standing against the wall, head leaned back, arms crossed, looking grim- which did it for me.

I told people "Karen Hughes just had her Virginia Buckingham moment." Virginia Buckingham was Bill Weld's campaign manager and she later said that a few minutes into the second Kerry-Weld debate she realized that her side was never going to even the score and had no hopes of stopping Kerry.

The only people who really know the numbers on this Presidential campaign are the people most internal to the Bush/Cheney campaign. They know what the real Republican support level and morale is for them in Ohio and Florida and everywhere else it matters, and where the Democrats have already outplayed them (e.g. in Pennsylvania) and where they are likely to (Florida and Ohio and Nevada, and maybe Colorado). Don't forget that they're management types and very much into number analysis, either.

Anyway, if I understand the polling internals, trends, and motion in the numbers- they were all shocked on Saturday and Sunday at how fragile/vulnerable their lead and support during September really was. They thought they had gotten their support to feel invulnerable- and the Undecideds just caved on them without warning.

I think that they simply underestimated the work Democrats have done over the past months to discredit them on all matters except Iraq/terrorism and didn't realize that their side's overemphasis of it meant extreme vulnerablity once Iraq started to go really sour.

It hasn't been a week since Kerry's convincing counterattack and their 5-7% lead has collapsed. Kerry is passing them in the last few pollsters now- Rasmussen obviously has him ahead today (tied in a 'three day rolling average' in which Kerry lags the past two days). Unfortunately for them this election has had a 45% R, 48% D, 2% 3rd party voter baseline- 95% of voters already committed- and so B/C '04 has to lead by 3-4% among likely voters to eke out a win.

Kerry's team (once again) did their advance analyses and advance preparations well, and slowly everything is going Kerry's way. Bush's team played a high gamble- and they're in agony watching it appear to go bust. So the anger, denial, and desperation is great.

[oscar111]

21. Turkeydom explains it all

bush is a total turkey.

Cheney is a turkey at looking friendly. Also, on Pet Goat day,
Cheney failed to tell handlers to get bush out of sight ASAP!

This amazing failure by handlers led to the stunning video of bush reading My Pet Goat for seven minutes.

Cheney's to "blame", since he appears to be the number one handler for moment to moment things. His failure is a sign of turkeydom as a manager. Haliburton must be an easy job latter to climb, if he is their best hotshot.

Maybe i should go to work there, ... rise rapidly to a nice income. LOL. Then start a war to up profits.

[Guaranteed]

23. They're tired, we're just hitting our stride. nt

[KoKo]

34. Coming down fast on their heads and they didn't see how angry folks

are out there, might be a good possibility. And, maybe there are some leaks coming out they can't stop...certainly have been quite a few in the last week since Chimp had his bad night.

Good point about their "internal polls," too. I'm seeing alot of anger out there, and I'm in NC which is supposed to be a RED state..but lots of military here, and many are not happy.

[LowerManhattanite]

37. Hammer, meet head of nail!

I have been saying this for the past few weeks (starting with the Sh*t Boat vets ad)—that the Bush/GOP braintrust has seen some internal numbers that have made them sick—sick because these numbers probably indicated a Kerry "up-trend" in the undecideds as well as an utter lack of confidence in the admin's handling of the war. Note the Sh*t Boat Vets ad, the vitriolic turn at the repugli-con and the sudden uptick in "vandalism" reports at GOP offices to and fro to garner...wait for it, 'cause it'll make you choke..."sympathy" for the beleaguered GOP.

Amidst all of this, they were aghast at the idea of Kerry wind-surfing—like he could afford to do that. Like even HE saw some numbers showing him gathering strength. Note the press' newfound set of testes of late in reporting on Bush failures—as if they have no fear of him anymore (i.e lame duck). Think the movers and shakers in the press haven't gotten ahold of the selfsame damaging "internals"?

Something's turned...something deep, and important and founded on solid knowledge—we're just seeing the steam before the volcano blows it's top. (apologies for the turn of phrase to all my threatened pacific northwesterners in harm's way).

[Mindful Monk]

57. Lex, this thought drifted through my head too

I have to get by on anecdotal and circumstantial evidence, like everyone else here I don't get to see raw poll data. But I do not see in the people I meet and talk to the support base that the polls suggest B-C have got. I just don't see it. I think there are REAL polls, ones that reflect the true mood of the electorate, and I think the repugs know what those polls say.

The media are another story. If in fact it's looking like Kerry by a landslide, they cannot report this, because then the "story" is over. Aside from whether or not they are bought and paid for by the GOP, the one thing that terrifies any "journalist" is not having a story with which to hook people. No media hack wants Scott Peterson to confess, not one. It's only interesting while there's an element of suspense. So no matter what polls might really say, we will be told it's a statistical tie right up until 11/2. Then when Kerry wins by a huge margin, they'll all feign disbelief and try to rationalize it as some last-minute change of heart in a large number of swing voters, knowing that no matter how absurd it sounds, by the next national election in 2006 everyone will have forgotten how badly they blew it.

There is another disturbing possibility. It could be that the terrorist attack that they've planned for next week is looking massive enough that they don't feel they need to expend energy on the debates or on campaigning with gusto. Once a couple of major US cities have been hit with dirty bombs, they figue the votes will just come. Why prep for a debate when you can win with a little help from your swarthy Saudi business partners?

[grasswire]

22. stop humanizing these psychopaths

I recall that even after that moment TPM notes, Cheney stuck the shiv into John Edwards' ribs several more times, and gave it a ruthless twist.

Don't fall into the trap of pitying them or underestimating them. Even if Cheney is faltering or Bush wants out, there are bullies and psychopaths behind them forcing them on.

Stay with the fight, DU-ers. We're fighting anti-American criminals who must be held accountable, even if they were to confess their sins.

No mercy. No quarter.

[KoKo]

26. No, it's not a matter of "humanizing them" but wondering what's going on

with them. I don't think wondering "what's up" is saying we shouldn't let our guard down. But, it's questioning is it internal with them or is some heavy stuff going to be coming out that's going to implode their
bunker.

[LTRS]

31. That has crossed my mind

but I think the more likely explanation is that they are so convinced of their own rhetoric and they are so arrogant that they simply don't think there is any point in even discussing how incredibly correct they are (or so they think). It's a given that it's all true, and it's a given that everyone should agree with them - as far as they are concerned.

*Bush didn't look near as convinced as Cheney though. In fact he looked desperate this morning.

[MADem]

32. I get the sense

...that they are just mailing it in. They aren't even trying very hard. This means either they are not motivated, or they've fixed the voting machines so they can't lose. If it is the latter, I'll be at the barricades with the rest of the pissed off serfs!

[Minimus]

33. bush discovered being President is hard work

and I say that not just tongue in cheek, but in reality this guy has never really had to work before. And even the little bit he does as President, between all his vacations, is just too much for him. bush likes the power but doesn't like what goes along with it.

His track record is failed business after failed busines - Not completing his obligation to the ANG - When he was gov of TX he was really just a figure head, the lt. gov actually did the work.

[oldtime dfl_er]

36. they're not used to having to rein themselves in

I think that's what's got them so tired and defeated looking. This administration has spent the last four years tightening the screws on anyone who disagrees with them and their vile evil policies. They are not accustomed to being challenged or confronted head on, can you imagine anyone around a table crashcart is presiding at, telling him he's wrong? It doesn't happen. They are finally having to perform the trick of defending their policies against real and solid objections, while still appearing able to govern. That has to be exhausting when you're only used to shutting people up.

I feel no mercy for the old coot and his puppet.

[yellowcanine]

41. They want to win. But lying has become a habit. They don't know what

the truth is anymore. Just as with Nixon, if one lies enough you start believing your own lies. Then you blow your own cover. Cheney is a much better liar than Bush because his face doesn't give it away and he doesn't get rattled and blink his eyes. But when you lie for no reason at all - as in the "first time I met you" lie - you get caught because you have over reached.

[DemBones DemBones]

43. I've wondered about this, too. How could they do so badly? Especially

Bush*. :shrug:

[desertalien]

44. They would like to win

but perhaps it isn't as important now since they arranged the
capture of Sadam which was very possibly the only reason for taking
the presidency in the first place. Well that along with bailing out Halliburton and making sure they got all that government money.

It could be they would rather not have to clean up their mess and leave it to the dems to do for say the next eight years. Of course during that time they will make it nearly impossible to accomplish in any reasonable fashion by using many of their dirty tricks. Thus making the dems look so incompetent that the pubs will look like heroes to the rescue of the beleaguered nation ruined by eight years of dems.

Enter Jeb in 2008.

I know what you're thinking, but this administration has made me paranoid .

:beer:

[KoKo]

45. Good Point.they've won it all...gotten most all their Legislation through

so...time to sit back...take it easy and let their destruction of America fall on Kerry/Edwards shoulders so they can come back in '08 saying "WE TOLD YOU SO!"

Sad...but maybe that's it. It's cynical..I don't want to be that cynical...but you may be correct. What's left for them to do but "Cut and Run" after they've trashed America. They will find Million Dollar Salaries in the "Private Sector" and so just "Move On" and leave US the Mess. :-(

[desertalien]

48. I hate to say this

but I've been thinking this way for a long time.

I guess the fix could be in but as some have said the polls don't reflect new voters.

It does not seem the pugs are willing to bend at all. They are only playing to their base. A strong base will allow them to trash us consistently when we take office. Shrub's a puppet and Chenney is running the show. It's all about greed and power. They don't care about the average guy at all. Religion and fear are their main tools. Why else would a family in Ohio who have lost their livelihood support the shrub? Because he's a man of God, whose puppeteer is terrifying everyone.

If they lose they have a whole group of followers to smite the heathen democrat.
You all know how dirty they can play and will. Cynical? Yes.

Gosh I hope I'm wrong. I hope we win fair and square and can overpower the conservative insanity. :party:

[KoKo]

52. Well...you are not alone. There are many here who worry about what you

say in your post. They might not post on this thread and you might not see them when you post here, but they are out there in DU Land...

Welcome! :-)'s

[Skidmore]

46. This has been Poppy's second term run amuck.

Poppy thought he'd get a second chance but couldn't hang out there 24-7 to micromanage. Junior did some acting out and made a big mess. Looks like Poppy isn't rescuing him this time.

[KoKo]

53. "REVENGE OF THE POPPY!" Sick title for a Movie...but isn't that the truth

somekind of "revenge for failing his Poppy." This guy...ugh! So he screws up the whole world making it his toybox where he can fling the toys he likes one way and the ones he doesn't another and in the end we all get tossed against the wall in his rage and angst.

Sheesh...spare me folks with "complexes" for Presidents...Just give me an "average Joe or Jane with smarts and common sense with out Psycho Problems...

[Bandit]

47. IMHO they aren't trying because they feel they have it fixed

I don't think they feel any urgency at all. That is why Bush* was so unprepared and Cheney didn't even bother with the attempt at telling the truth. It just plain doesn't matter. They have the fix in place and all this stuff is just window dressing.:shrug: I hate being so cynical.

[DemBones DemBones]

60. Definitely another plausible explanation, sadly enough.

I am highly annoyed that so little attention has been paid to the problems of computer voting.

[David Zephyr]

50. He Realizes That History Will Peg Him as A Very Evil Man.

And not just American history, but the collective histories written during this period in nations throughout the world.

Dick Cheney = Bad Man.

Dick is bright enough to know that he will be recorded as a villain and a murderer of children for greed.

Georgie is not bright enough to understand.

I think if there was any resignation in Cheney's performance, it was this.

[Justice]

51. He Did Check Out, But I think he did it because he didn't want to

overshadow Bush on domestic issues, the way he overshadowed Bush on foreign policy.

And he also doesn't care about people (except to use them as casualty numbers.

[Evergreen Emerald]

55. Delusions of Grandure

I honestly think that Cheney feels he is above it all. He has so much power and the people are so dumb he can say anything and still win--OR
It does not matter what he says because the fix is in...

[hippiechick]

54. There's a mess to clean up & they don't wanna do it.

Bush has never, ever, in his entire life finished anything he's started.

Cheney thinks hard work is for the plebe's.

The BFEE had 4 years to embezzle from the American People & line their pals' pockets, and now the general populace is noticing that the piggy bank's empty. This Administration has no interest in or ideas with which to fix the problem.

So, they bail with their golden federal parachutes, and let K/E clean it up. I've been saying this for several months now.



:hippie:

[Doctor_J]

58. someone on a repub board recently wrote

that the GOP will be better off if Kerry wins because "then he'll be blamed for the disaster of the next four years" - already predicting that *'s mess is unfixable, and that it would be better for the GOP to pass the blame rather than fix it.

[KellyPaDem]

59. They hope

This is my theory on why Cheney and Bush lie so often.

They hope the Lie is bigger than the Truth.

They want the media to grab hold of the lie and repeat it and repeat it and repeat it. I don't mean that the lie has to be more outrageous it simply has to be juicy and believable at first glance. For example the swift boat ads, the "global test", the $87. In all of these examples and in many more the media latched on to the lie and not the truth. Oh occasionally you would here well thats not what was said or thats not what the facts show but that was after 15 minutes of talking about the lie. The average person doesn't pay attention long enough to learn the truth.

And one more example. 62% of republicans still believe that Saddam was behind 9/11.