I've always been in the "Free Speech" corner on DU, but...

[incapsulated]

Things have changed. We've only got a few weeks to go until D-Day. When the freepers imploded after W's meltdown, it actually made the news, Democrats where telling the media about it, it hurt their team to appear so beat down.

I was never one to go at Kerry/Edwards for any reason other than my misgivings about the direction of the campaign, and only then because I want to win so badly.

Right now, until election day, helping Kerry win may mean some self-censorship, at least in public places, like DU. I don't want to hear the pundits insinuate that we may not be confident at this point, and I don't want to do anything that may encourage the other side.

I can't make anyone silence themselves and I wouldn't even if I could. But I'm imposing a very limited gag order on myself until election day. I'm taking one for the team. I encourage others to at least consider doing the same, for the next few weeks. I don't see this as a big sacrifice, given that I will still say what I like in more private circumstances and given what is at stake in this election.

I honestly believed that Edwards won the debate, hands down. But if I'm disappointed with Kerry's performance on Friday, no freepers are going to read about it here.


:hi:

[Catch22Dem]

1. In 2002, DU had a pretty strict policy

Dem bashing was forbidden. I'd like to see it back in effect for the next few weeks.

[Forkboy]

8. define "bashing"

is someone who considers that Cheney won the debate engaging in bashing?

For the record I don't know who won the debate...I watched the Yankees-Twins game :shrug:

on edit-I'll include this other DU thread of an example of what I would call bashing;

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x988134

[Catch22Dem]

44. No, I don't think so.

If a DUer thinks Cheney won the debate, that's fine (IMO) but don't say shit like "Kerry/Edwards deserve to lose," or "I hope they lose so America will wake up." We're all here to get dems elected. This ain't GreenUnderground, ThirdPartyUnderground, hell, it's not even LiberalUnderground (but that would be kinda cool ;)) It's DEMOCRATICUnderground. If someone thinks Cheney won, propose some ideas which will help our side in the NEXT debate. Become more active. Get motivated to win!

I like that thread you posted. Criticizing Kerry for preparing for the debate??? Perhaps he should blow off the preparation. Sure worked for * didn't it.

[Catt03]

64. I think during these next two weeks, support for the Democratic Party

candidates should be the rule. This is a Democratic board and it specifically states the purpose is to support and elect Democrats.

Have an opinion that criticizes Democrats...go to Free Republic

[Forkboy]

66. k

[Gelliebeans]

2. I pledge to do the same

[Forkboy]

3. Thank you for stating that without insulting those who disagree

it's a refreshing departure from the browbeating that others have tried.

The beauty of free speech is that it allows those who wish to say something to do so,and it allows those who wish not to the same right.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

12. I agree

the original poster of this thread did it in a nice, mature manner that I appreciate and agree with.

[incapsulated]

24. You're welcome

I don't believe in browbeating or telling others what to do. Only explaining myself and my own motivations.

:hi:

[Longhorn]

4. You make a lot of sense.

I also believe Edwards won the debate but if I didn't, I'd just keep it to myself or complain to my loved ones in private. I would NOT post public comments that could then be used for spinning opportunities by the opposition. If I had to testify on the witness stand, then of course I would have to tell the truth but there's no rule that says I have to come forward in a public forum and spew every thought that happens to come to my mind!

Especially not now, when the stakes are so high.

[Vincardog]

5. I will be disappointed it the shrub is not pissing Blood after Fri. But

not one bad word will be here.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

6. Nice Try, But It'll Never Work

I tried this before, to predictable results:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1744804

FWIW, I totally agree with you.

DTH

[Forkboy]

13. Hey,I remember that thread!

:hi:

[DoveTurnedHawk]

17. Hey There, How Goes It!

Keeping busy? :-)

DTH

[Forkboy]

19. on some days I'm busy as a beaver on a double espresso

on others I make sloths look downright peppy.It's always one extreme or the other with me.

I think the term would be bi-polar :)

[DoveTurnedHawk]

26. You? Extreme?

:evilgrin:

DTH

[Forkboy]

30. Hey now

:spank: :P

[unfrigginreal]

20. Yeah, your thread comes really close to incapsulateds.

:crazy:

[DoveTurnedHawk]

23. LOL!

Same idea, wildly different tone, I fully concede. :-) I still bet the result will be the same. But I would be thrilled to be wrong!

DTH

[incapsulated]

28. Well...

I'm mostly just posting my thoughts on the matter, especially because this is a change from my former view, and because of the debates and the reaction to them.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

29. Not Dogging You At All!

I totally support you, fellow Clarkie! :-) I am just feeling a little cynical and jaded, is all. :D

DTH

[incapsulated]

32. I know you weren't....

You are usually positive, when you aren't... excited, lol. :hi:

[Crunchy Frog]

65. LOL!

And you put it so much more gently than incapsulated did.

[goodboy]

7. while honest criticism may help make positive changes...we're stronger

when we stick together. I'm with you 100%

[incapsulated]

36. Yes

I believe in honest criticism and I think it has actually had an effect on the campaign. But it's down to the wire now and I would like to be in the cheerleading corner when the passes are thrown right now.

[David Zephyr]

9. You Can Count Me With You.

I'm with you.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

10. As of several months ago

I started subscribing to the "if I can't say something nice/good about Kerry-Edwards, I don't say anything at all or say something bad about cheney-bush" theory of operating.

I'm not CENSORING myself, just allowing for the reality that is our culture: it's all about perception, baby.

[LibertyorDeath]

11. At this point you're either with US or against US

Like my Grandmother always said (God bless her)

If you don't have anything good to say.

Then Shut The Fuck Up.

Love You Gran :hug:

[txindy]

14. I couldn't be more positive or upbeat than right now

I think both JK and JE kicked it in their respective debates. They were both awesome. I couldn't be more pleased. :headbang:

[unfrigginreal]

15. Outstanding post

Like you, I intend to impose some self-censorship as well. In another post, I made mention that I thought we should look at it as though we're in GOTV mode now. If that was the case, I don't think any of us would be out there trying to drum up votes for K/E by being critical of them. I also think that it's important that we put our best spin on the media clowns. Otherwise the "Edwards was obliterated" sentiments expressed by the jerk-offs on MSNBC last night would probably have been the news today.

I may have gone a little overboard in attempting to silence others last night and if I did I sincerely apologize to those that felt it. That's not where I want to find myself. I'll happily join you in a little self-censorship though.

[incapsulated]

41. We can share gag-tape and have a group hug!

At least until Nov. 3! ;)

:grouphug:

[unfrigginreal]

47. Heh heh!

:thumbsup: :grouphug:

[texasmom]

16. I completely agree, Incapsulated!

That's exactly what I feel. Everyone has a right to free speech, but there is a lot to lose here.

I have to wonder what those who express negative thoughts and feelings feel that our side has to gain by their expressions.

Every move we make every day of the next few weeks should be geared toward a win on Nov. 2. If it's not contributing to a win, to getting a vote for Kerry/Edwards, then we shouldn't do or say it.

Or, looking at that the other way around...if it can in any way hurt the campaign, or take one vote away from Kerry-Edwards, I feel we shouldn't say it. The stakes are way too high.

[bigtree]

18. Don't tell me to shut up!

You hate my freedoms! Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, :hi:

[Cha]

21. Compared to what we're up Against..

Kerry And Edwards are the second coming..IOW..they are PERFECT!O8)

[Julien Sorel]

22. It isn't criticism that's the problem, but the tone of it.

The trolls who come here actually present their anti-Kerry arguments better and more politely than the so-called "Democrats" who go after Kerry or his campaign. "I'm furious at Kerry." "Kerry betrayed the gays!" "Fire Cahill!" "Kerry has to do something about xxxxxxx NOW or he's just like Dukakis!" "Why doesn't Kerry XXXXXXXXX?" "Dean would be better!"

This kind of foolish hand wringing and nay saying attracts attention because of its frantic and/or angry tone, and the implication that Kerry's supporters feel the election is slipping away. Nothing attracts a crowd like a train wreck, and these people are implying one is happening. The worst of it is, there is absolutely no upside to these threads: they serve no constructive purpose besides allowing the poster to let some of their steam out and heap abuse on Kerry in a public domain. On the downside, they can discourage activists, and point the media to hot button issues on our side they might otherwise not find.

This stuff died down a lot after the first debate, but it hasn't died entirely, and if the campaign hits a bump, these same people will be at it again.

[unfrigginreal]

35. Hmmm, I wonder if the tone aimed at the criticizers

has anything to do with the problem. What do you think?

[Forkboy]

38. heh

:thumbsup:

[Julien Sorel]

40. I think the "criticizers"

are foolish and self-absorbed to the point where they are impervious to anything but the message board equivalent of electroshock.

[Forkboy]

43. We all have opinions

Now we know yours.

[unfrigginreal]

50. Yeah, I kinda thought so

but figured that I'd check for any self-observations that you may have made. You didn't disappoint.

[Julien Sorel]

59. I seldom do.

[Forkboy]

61. What? make self observations?

[donhakman]

45. hold thy tongue

and let all the evil in the mud hatch out.

[BootinUp]

25. Good thinking!

I honestly don't have any complaints right now. Unless you want to talk about the Bush Crime Family. :)

[incapsulated]

49. Hey, Jim

:hi:

I don't really, either. But that could change overnight, lol. So I'm drinking a gallon of Koolaid, just in case.

[GreenArrow]

27. as a pre-election strategy, I somewhat agree with the strategy,

but when will it end? My fear is that it will carry over past the election; the Republicans aren't going to make anything easy for Kerry when he wins.

I really don't like Edwards at all, and I'm not crazy about Kerry, but given the alternative, I've tried to keep things in check since the convention. I think Edwards won the debate last night, but he didn't knock my socks off. It didn't hurt either that Cheney lied so shamelessly.

[unfrigginreal]

37. It ends for me on Nov. 4th

I want a full day to celebrate.

[grace0418]

31. I agree and will do the same

The thing the GOP has always had over us is that they stick together (mostly because they're stepford wives and Kool-aid drinkers, but that's another story). I know it's difficult for thoughtful, educated, intelligent people to keep from having differing opinions but for now we need to stick together. We've got to win this people. Losing is not an option. And if it means keeping my criticisms to myself, I'm HAPPY to make that sacrifice.

I'll just pour all my negative energy into BushCo bashing! LOL

[sundog]

33. I dig your post. No bashing from me... we're in the home stretch now

[Sparkly]

34. I am SO with you on this, incapsulated!!

If I have nothing but useless negative stuff to write, I'm not writing anything. I can stifle until November 3rd. :)

There's nothing to be gained in complaining about past decisions, and as you point out, it can even be counterproductive.

[incapsulated]

51. Hi Sparkly!

:hi:

There are other, more private forums, where I can exorcise my demons, if need be. I probably will need to, as well, with the stress level in this election. I know myself that much, at least, heh. Always have a backup plan.

[enigmatic]

39. You have to understand something..

Like every other internet message board out there, there are people on this board who live to complain. Whether it's about Kerry, Edwards, what they aren't doing etc, it doesn't matter to them; they would complain no matter who the candidate was for the Dems, and why they wern't doing a good enough job on whatever the poster deemed "important". Every single message board has these types of people.

I've only been posting here since May, but I've learned who the ones I've described were and either tuned them out completely or laughed at their transparency. Very rarely will I get upset w/ them enough to confront them, but it's happened.

Lst night there were a few posters who had some constructive thoughts on why they felt Edwards didn't "win", but they were in the minority. The rest was more of the same. You can't let the "EDWARDS/KERRY/DEMOCRATS LOST!!!!!" posts get to you; 90 percent of the time it's white noise.

I know there are people here who think it's more important to have the right to say that Edwards sucked last night then to support the ticket in what is the most important election of most of our lifetimes; maybe. But I also think it's more important to some of those that they get "any" attention for their posts/views; that's what's driving them, not the "you're denying my free speecvh!!" stuff.

The fact is that Kerry won the debate over W, and that at the very least Edwards "tied" Cheney last night, and even that's in doubt since Cheney's whoppers are being exposed all across the media today. But there are still going to be people here who are going to say the opposite of whatever the majority thinks everytime; that's their nature. If their arguement has merit, it'll stand on it's own. If it's not, it won't. And the ones who consistently make the arguements that collapse in the face of reality will be exposed.

[incapsulated]

48. Well, there may be some truth in what you say

But there were dissenting posts from regulars I certainly don't consider "complainers". A lot of us tend to "think out loud" here, not with bad intentions, just to discuss what is going on. But the reaction to the freeper meltdown, and the fact that it made the news, sobered me. If freepers and rethug operatives are looking here for shit to hurl at Kerry, I don't want to give them material, not now when it's all on the line. It's not because it bothers me, personally, to read critical threads, although I strenuously disagreed with some people last night, it's the idea that this could be used against us that worries me.

[enigmatic]

52. absolutely

That's why I mentioned that there were a few constructive posts last night talking about why they thought Cheney "won". But like i said, they were in the minority.

I think the thing is that in the end, what the people who we're talking about want the most is attention, and everyone rushing to their thread to slam them and slam back. It's pretty standard on all message boards. The only way the stop is if they are ignored; then they go away.

I'm not a pollyanna; I think constructive debate about our candidates is not only worthwhile, but vital. But as you said, the overt the top reactions to last night (and this whole campaigm, to an extent)is counter-productive to those who are sincere, and trolling wo those who aren't.

Keep up the good fight; the home-stretcch is here, and hope is on the way.

[immoderate]

53. We don't want to give aid and comfort to the enemy

I certainly don't want my enemies to be comfortable.

Make a living, yes. But comfortable, no!

--IMM

[enigmatic]

55. I understand..

I just just don't put as much stock into the people here who live to complain or are obvious trolls as others; maybe because it's just white noise to me. I certainly don't take them seriously; I expect that most others don't, either.

I think it's more important to show solidarity by our actions out the the country then worrying about those posters I mentioned; they just aren't worth the effort IMO, and if they are too troll-like, the mods will take care of them anyway.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

42. Some people can't help it.

Some people are "just so honest" and they can't help
if it they have to "tell it like it is." Some people
were not potty trained and they are proud of it, yelling
and pointing at how they went jellylegs and poopied in
their pants. That is what makes American strong.

[immoderate]

46. I, for one, am not so vain...

...that I could think that anything I could post here would have any effect on the election. Just what do you think will happen as a result of some DUer registering an opinion that is not "with the program?" :shrug:

Are we afraid of putting the "whammy" on our candidates?


--IMM

[incapsulated]

54. I used to agree with that sentiment

But after the Kerry/Bush debate I watched Democrats on TV talking up the fact that right-wing blogs were in meltdown over W's performance. Although not enough to directly turn the election, it was a very effective way to beat down the other side and discourage them. I don't want to contribute to that sort of spin, do you?

[enigmatic]

56. That's a good point.

One I haven't thought of.

[incapsulated]

60. It's really my only point, heh

That experience changed my mind about the issue. And I can't in good conscience do anything, no matter how small, that might help the enemy right now. Before, my criticism came from a feeling of fear about the campaign, that if we didn't make some changes, we would lose anyway, so I didn't care who knew what I thought. Now, the campaign has gotten itself together, imho, and the election is right around the corner (and it would be too late to change course now, anyways). The last of the undecideds are paying attention now and I want the message to be all positive, all the time. :)

[immoderate]

69. Incapsulated

You have a good point. On the other hand, if Edwards had imploded as Bush did, the blogs would be in a frenzy, and I don't think it would be you and me.

--IMM

[bagnana]

58. in the courtroom attorneys are told to look impervious

regardless of whatever damaging testimony just emerged against their case. Juries look to see what the advocates' reaction is and are in part guided by it. If you look like you just took a body blow, then suddenly you did take a body blow. Why do you think people were checking Free Republic to see their reaction to debate #1 and getting such a thrill out of their despair? We are the true partisans. If we think Kerry or Edwards are doing crappy, well then they must damn well be doing crappy! So yes, I do think it has an effect. I want Bush out of office more than I want to feel vindicated and pure about always speaking my current state of mind, even if it hurts my ultimate interests.

[catbert836]

57. Good point. I hope people are listening.

[Leilani]

62. Hi incap! I have gotten out my unused duct tape

& sealed my opinionated mouth!

Last night I had some thoughts on the debate, but I refrained from posting them. I don t always agree with the charisma crowd, but I figured what was the point in raining on someone s parade.

All in all, at the very worst, the debate last night was a tie...at best it was an Edwards win, because of the lies Cheney told.

In the big scheme of things, I don t think last night changed any minds. People vote for the Prez, in most cases. Veeps can shore up percieved weaknesses, as Cheney does for Shrub. But Kerry was SO strong in the 1st debate, he didn t need shoring up.

So onwards to Friday, where Kerry will again make Shrub look like the idiot he is.

And on to Victory!!!

[incapsulated]

63. Momentum

Hi, Leilani! :hi:

If the media spin was an Edwards loss, Kerry would lose some momentum going into Friday. As it was, a win/tie puts even more pressure on Bush to do well in the next debate. And we know how well he does under pressure. ;)

[Andromeda]

67. Absolutely!

I might become discouraged, upset, depressed or mad but nobody is going to read about it here on DU.

[ScreamingMeemie]

68. I'm sorry. First and foremost, I'm for Democracy. A place where We the

People can voice our opinions...free from harrassment or guilt. Honest questions deserve honest answers. I will not hold my tongue if need be. :hi: That said, I really think the Kerry campaign has righted itself, and that with hard work from all of us...November 3 will indeed be a happy day.