EXCELLENT Talking Point: You CANNOT be PRO-LIFE and also be PRO-WAR

[NEOBuckeye]

How can Bush say he's against abortion of babies, when he has authorized the abortion of the lives of our young men and women in Iraq, who have certainly, in battle, aborted the lives of many Iraq men, women and BABIES?

You cannot claim to be pro-LIFE, and yet advocate war that means DEATH to hundreds of thousands. Abortion is abortion. Bush cannot have it both ways.

[GimmeDANEger]

1. listening to Malloy?

[NEOBuckeye]

8. How'd you guess?

:)
I wanted to call this in, but it's too late for tonight. I think it's an excellent point that the Kerry campaign or the DNC could use to shake up the Pro-Life voters who are sitting on the fence but leaning towards Bush.

I can't stand these single-minded wedge issues that consistently motivate people to vote against their better interests, just for the sake of ONE issue, as if that ONE thing is all that ever matters when it's really a far more complex issue. The simple-mindedness of many people in this country is almost as scary as the idea that they have the power to vote -- and very often use it, much more so than many deep-thinking, educated people.

[CrowNotAngelGRL]

11. I listened to him tonight

(never miss his show) and definietly agreed with that! I loved what he said about it and definietly agreed. It doesn't make sense to me. :shrug:

[GainesT1958]

2. Another line I'd like to use on Dub:

"And just how many babies have YOU killed in Iraq, Mr. Bush?":mad:

B-)

[nirvana3240]

3. death penalty?

and what about being pro-life and pro-death penalty?

[newyawker99]

39. Hi nirvana3240!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[footinmouth]

4. You can throw in pro death penalty too - nt

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

5. I remember hearing shortly after the invasion

that we accidentally hit a Baghdad maternity hospital. I have told that to several * supporters and they tried to shrug it off, but I could tell it actually bothered them.

[CrowNotAngelGRL]

13. Is there

a link for this story? I'd love to share it.

[incapsulated]

6. Please

Do you think these hypocrites apply logic to their rhetoric? Never did, never will.

[RafterMan]

12. Exactly

This isn't going to score any points over the next month. Time to simplify the message: Cheney is a liar, Bush is a fool.

Save the philosophy for next term.

[incapsulated]

18. I didn't mean...

For my post to sound as brusque as it did. But I know these types. They see no contradiction with being anti-abortion and pro-death penalty. They can't wait for someone to be born into terrible circumstances so when they grow up they can put them in the electric chair after predictable transgressions.

[RafterMan]

31. Heh. I was the one who was too brusque.

I was completely agreeing with you.

My point was that whether there is or is not a contradiction here is a lengthy philosophical project that won't be concluded in the next month. The other side already has their justifications in place.

I feel at this point that any argument that does not contribute immediately towards the removal of George Bush can wait a few weeks. Maybe this point is useful for stalemating the pro-lifers, but I don't see it helping in the rollback.

[DemBones DemBones]

7. Capital punishment should also offend pro-lifers. I am pro-life and

I'm opposed to war, capital punishment, euthanasia, and abortion. None are positive aspects of a society striving to be just.

We need to find better ways of dealing with criminals and with international conflicts as well as working to substantially reduce demand for euthanasia and abortion, through better health care and end-of-life support, including adequate pain management, for the dying. We also need better sex education and access to contraceptives to prevent unplanned pregnancies plus financial and social support systems for expectant mothers who need them. If a woman is pressured to abort (by others or by her own fears) because she can't afford a baby, what kind of "choice" is that?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

9. I vote for you

and I DO believe if this society valued women and children REALLY abortion would be rare.

[DemBones DemBones]

22. Thank you, I appreciate your support!

Re-criminalizing abortion wouldn't stop it, it would just stop the safe and legal abortions, which would cause women to endanger themselves with illegal ones. No good! But I think we should be trying to reduce the number of abortions because I believe that safe, legal, and rare would be better for our collective karma.

Placing more value on women and children should definitely be high priority and that alone, if achieved, could make a significant difference in our society.

"Yes, I'm a dreamer, But I'm not the only one."

[NEOBuckeye]

17. so odd that so many condemn abortion, yet also abhor preventive education

And contraceptives. Many people in this country seem to think that denying reality will mean never having to face reality. But as far as I can tell, teen-pregnancy is as frequent as it's ever been.

[zeemike]

21. I'm with you n/t

[USA_1]

50. pro-Life, pro-Peace

Like you, I support both.

I would also like to point out that it was a Republican majority that legalized abortion in the Roe <1973> and Casey <1992> decisions.

While these Republican liars and murderers like to blame Democrats from everything under the sun, including abortion, it remains the truth that it was they who killed over 40 mlilion babies through abortion. The AIDS epidemic that flourished with their blessing and the wars they created are also proof that they are the biggest murderers in history.

There is nothing principled or moral about the Republican party.

[Dehumanizer]

10. To play the devil's advocate here..

Their rationale in response would be that because of "the threat of Saddam", the deaths that occur during the war are for the greater good of saving thousands of more lives later on. That may be justified if such a threat even existed in the first place, but ah..

Still, I totally agree with you 100%, but I'm not sure how well that would go.

[NEOBuckeye]

19. But where were the WMDs? Why not have just let Hans Blix finish his job?

There was still a far more peaceful, PRO-LIFE solution already in place for dealing with Hussein that didn't necessitate going to war. As of today, this war remains unjustified, and an atrocious waste of money, resources, and most importantly of all, LIVES.

[Gemini Cat]

14. One thing I've noticed about these charming

anti-people people is: between the smirks, the snarls and generally smug holier than thou attitude, they can't answer that question. They don't want to. Answering that question would require thinking and thinking is something they are loath to do.

[LittleClarkie]

15. I've used that

How can one disregard over 10000 Iraqi civilian deaths and still be considered "pro-life."

[MazeRat7]

16. But they are not intellectually honest about that platitude

If you are "Pro-Life" you really should respect all life otherwise you are just pro-unborn-babies (or anti-choice). The point they miss with that little platitude is that pro-life also takes things like hunting, eating animal products, and the death penalty off the table as well.

MZr7

[DemBones DemBones]

23. Absolutely, except that pro-life refers to human life.

Some pro-lifers are vegetarians as an extension of their beliefs about the sanctity of human life.

[gauguin57]

20. Typical Republicans:

Love the fetus, hate the child and the adult.

[pauliedangerously]

24. WOW, he's a paradox...

So he doesn't really exist then?

[evilqueen]

25. How would they explain Bush's record then?

As governor of Texas, didn't he execute the most prisoners when he could have commuted those sentences to Life in prison? That was his choice, that wasn't a war.

BTW, you might ask them to find out what congregation Shrub belongs to.

[strategery blunder]

26. When rethuglikkkans say "40 million babies killed since Roe,"

counter with, "That took place over the last thirty years. Bu$h* missed a perfectly good chance to PROVE his pro-life rhetoric by ignoring the AIDS problem in Africa, a problem that has killed (insert number of victims here, but I think it's somewhere around 25 million) in four years. We could have given African nations suffering under this epidemic antiviral drugs to prevent transmission from mother to child during labor, but NO, bu$h* blew it off. He is complicit in the deaths of 25 million people.":wow:

I bring this up because the freeps I have to deal with always say that war doesn't kill as many babies as abortion does, and therefore it is (according to them) ok.:grr::mad:

[pdonkey69]

27. Operation: Enlist Pro-Bush Republicans

Since the Republicans believe so strongly that the War in Iraq is one with the War on Terror and that Saddam Hussein presented a Clear and Present Danger to our country, it only follows that they should be given an opportunity to defend Freedom by fighting on the front lines of Iraq (aka the War on Terror according to Republicans.

My suggestion is that if you know anybody who intends to vote for the Cheney/Bush administration (I say Cheney/Bush administration because it is obvious that Cheney is calling that shots in this administration - except for the all important Gay Marriage Constitutional Amendment which looks like George W thought up all himself with the help of his pastor), find out their name, address, and as much contact information as possible and enlist them.
The army and marines will accept anyone between the ages of 17 and 34 and is gender inspecific.

Also, if the person is an avid Bush supporter but is perhaps too old but has kids, enlist their kids - get a recruiter to go their homes to ask about their desire to defend their country.

I believe all people who support the War in Iraq and Bush should be given an opportunity to defend their country. Bush said he served honourably and if he had been called up he would have gone to Vietnam; here's a chance for his kids and other pro-Bush parent's kids to fight for their country.

Operation "Enlist Republicans" should be done agressively over the next weeks so that people who vote for Bush realize that War is not something that is fought by other people for their benefit. If they think the War in Iraq is about defending this country, which it obviously wasn't given all the reports, then they should volunteer to fight in it unless they are cowards. If all people who vote for Bush enlist to go to Iraq, then those people who support Kerry and don't believe the Iraq war was entered into honestly won't have to ... here are the links:

Army: http://www.goarmy.com/contact/send_for_info.jsp
Marines: http://www.marines.com/request/contact_recruiter_request.asp

P.S. Be sure to find the names and details of your pro-Bush Republican congressmen and women and senators as well - their children should not be exempt. It's called practicing what you preach and they should learn to do it.

[Barney Rocks]

28. I just tried it on a fundie.

I have to tell you, I need help with these people. I have very poor luck in arguing with them. Usually I just try to stay away from them, but when I get a good argument like this--I love to give it a shot!

Her response--of course she is against the killing of all innocents. But--she is not against the killing of the guilty or the bad. Killing a baby is killing a pure innocent who has never done anything bad or to hurt anyone. Killing a murderer on death row is different, and killing in a war (the people who supposedly are trying to kill you) is different. She claims that these lives are not "as innocent" as the baby that has not been born.

So I guess that what they believe is that some life is superior to other life:

:shrug:

Honestly, I am ready to give up arguing with fundies--they just circle around and don't really listen to me at all. It is extremely frustrating. Everytime I think I have a great argument--it just goes nowhere. Maybe I am not doing it right? But I think it may be that they are just very hardened in their point of view and that if "it isn't in the bible" then obviously I am just pulling it out of my ass.

I am serious, I have had people say--well where in the bible does it say that? And I am like "I am not quoting the bible--I am trying to use logic and reasoning" and they are all--"well if it isn't in the bible"

SCREAM!!!

[theHandpuppet]

29. Here is Jesus' response...

Unless she thinks Christ was lying when He spoke these words:

(From the book of Matthew)

Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.
And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.

Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? Do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? Do not even the publicans so?

We savagely attacked a country that was innocent of the charges leveled against it by the Bush administration. In the process, many thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians have been killed or maimed, including women and children -- all in the name of a lie and in vengeance. Does she think Jesus would be proud?

[Barney Rocks]

46. I like it!!!

I will try it tonight (she is someone I met on-line in a chat room). Thanks for giving me some biblical stuff to throw at her--I am not good enough at quoting the bible to do a lot of this.

I am more of a spiritual person than a religious person. I have read most of the bible, but I have not seen the need to read it over and over again or memorize verses.

I appreciate the help! (honestly though some of these people are so illogical that I don't know if I will win--I will try thought)

[Lars39]

34. Judge not, etc, and bearing false witness is the closest

I seem to get with the truly brainwashed. They like to "suffer the little children" and get off on smiting people.

[Barney Rocks]

47. another good one!

tonight I will try to score some debate points off her! Thanks a lot--to tell you the truth I don't even understand how they can say the "I follow what is written in some book" thing? It is extremely bizarre in this day and age...

[KT2000]

30. Shock and Awe

was about killing civilians - including children.
Pro-lifers don't want to acknowledge that.

[evilqueen]

33. that picture of that little boy will never leave my head

[ScreamingMeemie]

36. There is one picture that never leaves me when I'm tucking my own

son into bed. And then to see the pain on these people's faces last night on 60 minutes. How the hell can anyone think they should be thanking us for spilling the blood of their innocents?

[evilqueen]

48. they justify this with their perverted idea of religion

It's been the same since the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition (which they're now trying to say "wasn't so bad"), and the witch burnings in Salem.

[ScreamingMeemie]

32. Because Our babies are "American" babies...

therefore, their babies don't deserve to live....

As told to me by a rather zealous "right to lifer" at our church. (I added the last part about "their babies", but the first part says a lot about mentality of the pro life people.

[evilqueen]

37. American or Iraqi... all are human.

Do tax cuts for the wealthy represent the will of "God" even while millions of Americans are unemployed, uninsured, and swiftly sliding into poverty? Is this "compassionate" conservatism? I am not being sanctimonious, it is just that one of the main tenets of what Jesus taught is the one that is most often ignored: "That which you do unto the least of these, you do unto me."

Other wise men in other times and in other cultures said similar things.

Beliefs of religious groups, some Old World pagan cultures, and non-theistic ethical systems, like Humanism, differ greatly in their concepts of deity, other beliefs and practices, but one principle is accepted by almost everyone. It is the Ethic of Reciprocity : the concept that we should treat others as we would wish them to treat us.

A logical development of this Ethic is the principle that each individual is of equal worth, simply because they are human.

[Killarney]

35. they use the Bible to condone it

I had a debate with a repuke once about this. I asked how she could be pro-life yet also pro-death penalty and pro-war. She said that the fetus is innocent life and killing that is murder. Then she quoted passages from the Bible that support the right of the government to kill to protect its citizens blah blah blah (hence pro death penalty and war). They say that killing the bad people is saving more innocent lives, blha blaah blah.

You just cannot use logic and reason with these people.

[Malva Zebrina]

38. pro-life is a slogan

and is, as evidenced on this thread, a slippery slope.

When one can define when "life" begins, instead of the claim to a potential life, then the argument can proceed on a rational level

As it is, some degree of logic must prevail--what people who claim to be pro-life are doing is redefining and in some cases, trying to force on others, their concept of when life begins.

What they are really doing is defending potential life. That is fine for those who believe that because of religious conviction--however, it is a slippery slope that eventually peters out in argument.

As far as vegetation (or vegetarianism) goes, it is the food mainstay of those being defined as possessing the same "life" as human beings. In order to preserve the "life" of animals, there should be ample vegetation available to support that life.

Every person who builds a house or a city, or urban sprawl, is robbing "life" by destroying the habitat of any one animal and it's food supply.At the very least, it is changing the habitat, where other animals, such as rats, will survive, and rabbits or deer, say, will not. So, how can being a vegetarian be considered a higher approach than meat consumption? Not that I have any prejudice against vegetarians, but making the point for the sake of argument.

For that matter, can animals of prey, such as lions and tigers, snakes and other forms of life, or as in my back yard, a fisher who has attacked and eaten every domestic cat in the neighbor hood, by the same logic, be considered as lesser animals because for their survival they kill and eat meat?

They are "life" as it is being defined here by some, yet they kill "life" .

That is only one aspect of the slippery slope.

Every soy bean produced in the United States has been genetically altered BTW.

[jbond56]

41. losing battle

Someone who is truly Pro Life will never waiver because it is belief based on faith.

So if you are defending your self it would never be considered murder.

Remember murder and killing are two different things.

Your better off narrowing the argument to murder/killing.

[cmf]

40. But, but, but

They're not innocent babies! (except some of them are)

Anyway, they rationalize that the death of innocents is justified in this case because it's for the greater good.

Our point should be that it isn't a just war. There was no justification for this war and all of the deaths it has caused.

[bloom]

42. Maybe they are just "Pro-Their-Own-Life"

As in - if they had been aborted they wouldn't have been born & they want others to fight wars for them so they can keep living.

It's a theory.

[spanone]

43. ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY TWO executions in Texas under bush* governorship

And he says he's pro-life???? Bhwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah

[evilqueen]

49. He isn't pro-life.

His actions can't be spun.
George Bush is not a member of any christian congregation.
George Bush does not regularly attend any church.
George Bush uses religion and the fanaticism of the christian coalition to advance his real agenda, which is greed and power. The "true believers" think he is sincere and that he is "going to do great things" for them. He has no intentions of doing anything for them.

[ArkDem]

44. Would the opposite be true?

[TheDonkey]

45. Right to Life advocates LOVE the Death Penalty, War, Self defense kills

They cannot have it both ways.
If you are truly, Right to Life, no matter WHAT you should be against war no matter what, the DP, and killing someone for your own self defense.

But of course they will say, well that's different, they are guilty, it's for the greater good, or let God sort them out, etc.

This is an incredibly hypocritical and ignorant defense. We should kill human lives yet not give women the right over their own bodies and sleep better at night.

[Bullshot]

51. I've given that argument to a lot of pro-lifers. It doesn't phase them.

They deliberately pigeonhole the "life" debate to the phase of life when you're a fetus, because they know that's where you get a "pure" Republican support base.

They're just pre-disposed to vote Republican no matter what, and that's how they rationalize their position.

I happen to believe the "life" debate includes many positions, including propensity to start wars, health care, care for the elderly, the death penalty and a host of other issues.

[Cats Against Frist]

52. It's a false dilemma

and riddled with potential semantic complications. Logical fallacies are for Republicans. Seriously.