Man kills baby and is shot to death by police

[Shakespeare]

Source: San Francisco Chronicle

A young Turlock man parked a pickup truck on a dark country road outside his Central Valley city Saturday night, removed a baby boy from a car seat and then viciously beat the child in the street, fighting off passersby who tried to stop him until he was fatally shot by a police officer whose helicopter landed in a nearby pasture, police said today.

The 27-year-old suspect died immediately where he fell. The child, who according to police appeared to be 12 to 24 months old, was rushed to a hospital but was soon pronounced dead as well.

Singh said an elderly couple driving along West Bradbury Road just after 10 p.m. made the first 911 call to police, reporting that the suspect's Toyota pickup truck was parked facing west in the eastbound lane. According to the caller, the suspect was brutally beating the baby boy behind the truck.

The couple had poor cell phone reception and did not give a precise address, delaying the response by a few minutes, Singh said. But soon, he said, other witnesses called as well - some of the witnesses began trying to halt the attack on the baby, who was punched and kicked and stomped on the pavement.


Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/06/15/BAJT119MI5.DTL&tsp=1

---

I don't even know what to say. How horrific.

[DS1]

1. The officer should have shot to wound

and let the crowd finish him off

[Trajan]

9. Perhaps you would have been personally gratified by such a display ...

of mob 'justice' ...

But as for myself: I am glad we at least pretend to be civilised ....

As much as we denigrate court decisions, they are a FAR CRY better, and more just AND civilised, than mobs collecting in street corners, awaiting a rumor to be called to action ....

As bad as that man is, it would be unfortunate if those in the crowd became killers too .. Wouldn't it ?

[Thothmes]

28. most police are not good enough shots

it intentionally wound a suspect.

[Codeine]

29. In fairness

most human beings are not good enough shots to do so, especially when pumping adrenaline and dealing with movement, often-poor lighting, and split-second decision-making.

[Shakespeare]

50. That's absolutely NOT true.

Most police officers are very good marksmen.

And they're not trained to shoot to wound, they're trained to shoot to kill.

[Runcible Spoon]

54. well technically they're trained on all zones of the body...

trained to shoot different parts in different situations. But yeah, I can see how a situation like this would be difficult for someone, even a highly trained official, to react perfectly "textbook" although I'm sure deadly force is justified here.

Only the sickest fucks, and there are some in law enforcement no question, would shoot to kill because they love to kill or enjoy the sport.

[kestrel91316]

66. Shooting to wound is pure Hollywood. LAPD only shoots to kill.

They start firing at you, you are gonna wind up dead. Period.

They don't hesitate to kill elderly mental patients rather than wound them. That old lady several years ago armed with nothing more than a screwdriver and raving because she was totally psycho and needed MENTAL HELP -they left her in frickin' pieces. A billy club would have taken her down with a single blow, but they had to KILL HER.

[TomInTib]

2. Too bad the first few to stop were unarmed.

I would have shot the fucker on the spot.

[jobycom]

10. Why would they need guns? Teeth, nails, fists, feet....

Only two tried to intervene?

[TomInTib]

16. I was thinking the same.

We are living in Chickenshit Nation.

A dozen people standing around, watching this.

I hate to think about it.

[gatorboy]

53. Fucking watching.

Not doing anything but staring. It boggles my mind.

And I don't want to sound like an internet Rambo or anything but I would've not ceased trying to stop this man. Gouge his eyes out. Something!

I could've gone my entire life without reading about this...

[kestrel91316]

67. Armed with only my PURSE, I would have made him severly regret what he was doing.

[AndyTiedye]

69. They Tried to Stop Him and Couldn't

Most of us aren't Superman, after all.

[krispos42]

27. This seems to be the attitude we're cultivating

Let the police deal with it, they have the weapons and training. You might get sued for your efforts. The police might mistake you for a perp and injure you. Etc., etc., etc.

Either we adopt the mentality that aggressive violence is to be discouranged and stopped but defensive violence is okay and encouraged, or we live with the result of our "all violence is bad" teachings that we've adopted.



What may be ironic (I haven't read the full thread yet for any familiar names) is that some of the people here wondering why nobody did anything, why didn't anybody help the toddler, etc., may be the same people that are against gun ownership and think that people that want to own things designed to kill are off their rockers.

<sigh>

I keep a metal club and a can of pepper spray in my car. For sure those would have seen use if I was there. I have a 3-year-old. People would only to that to him over my dead body.

[jobycom]

41. I am fiercely against gun ownership, and have little respect for people who are for it, frankly.

I grew up around guns, and am still surrounded by guns, and I've never met anyone I trusted with one. Even at 43, most of the people I know who have died died by guns, either accidentally or deliberately. And I've never once seen one save anyone, despite the fantasy stories I hear from people I don't believe.

This isn't about gun ownership, and any Rambo who tries to make it so is wrong. It's about people not doing hard things in hard circumstances. Guns create more of those circumstances, not fewer. In fact, I'd say that gun ownership and the romance that movies and Charleton Heston and BushCo have created about guns is more of a problem here than any non-violence message. I wonder how many people standing there were saying "If only I had a gun I could do something." I know gun owners who think that ONLY a gun can solve anything. I know gun owners who think that guns are made to keep them from getting in fist fights. Most of the shootings I've seen and read about where self-defense was claimed, the gun owner killed someone to avoid getting in a non-fatal fist fight. We're so used to seeing a gun pointed at someone in a movie and having all problems solved that we think of the stupid things as magic wands.

Guns are the problem. We didn't need some yahoo there with a gun looking for an easy way to solve a problem without getting bloody. We needed someone there willing to take a hit or two to save a baby's life. If that was possible--I haven't seen enough details yet to know what happened. My point wasn't that Rambo needed to kill the bad guy. I questioned why no one got involved even though they couldn't hide behind a magic wand.

I didn't want to get into the whole gun thing, which was the point of my first post. But too late, I guess.

[Pavulon]

45. I will say it again..F a fair fight

I have no urge to get into one. I am past that shit, if I end up in a fight at this point it is not by my choice and it will not be fair. I spent plenty of time around armed people and never had a problem. I never knew anyone who used an issued weapon in a criminal matter.

I have no urge to fight a tweaked out asshole. I did the whole hand to hand combat thing. My thought was that if I am ever using this hand to hand shit in combat a series of failures has happened.

See a guy beating a baby use the most effective tool available. Be that a scoped rifle or handgun or bat. The goal is to use a tool to stop him, if he dies as a result, that seems like his problem

Humans use tools.

[Runcible Spoon]

56. I agree EACTLY with the points in your thread!

we need to educate people about crisis preparation, and that should involve gun awareness and safety but the last thing we need are MORE guns in the hands of people who aren't able to process the best course of action in these situations.

I agree with you 100% RE: the nuts who won't take a few hits (or even give over their wallets) and pull their guns to "proactively" prevent violence.

As with sex, we have been conditioned to have a paradoxical exposure to violence: on one hand, it is glorified and then saturated through media but then in everyday life it is denied, distanced, and mitigated when it occurs close to home. No wonder people are confused, to be told that horrible things like war, murder, rape are happening all around the world, or maybe even in another state over, but anywhere besides our backyards.

I witnessed a pretty brutal stabbing which resulted in a riot the size of 2 city blocks when I lived in Albany, NY. The cops and the fire station cut off all access into the neighborhood until the arrests were made and the statements taken and most of the damage cleaned up. There was a news outlet there, but I didn't see ANYTHING in the papers. A week later I called a newspaper and asked why the story wasn't covered, and they pretended like they had no idea what I was talking about.

Hmm, it WAS an election year too. What a world we live in.

[krispos42]

58. Well, it's about bleedover, I think

People are so desperate to create a violence-free society it winds up being counterproductive. Kind of like "abstinance-only" education, which if you think about it is really "ignorance-only" education. And the counter-push on that is the right-wing freaking out about graphic nudity but giving the ol' thumbs-up to graphic violence.


But they are afraid of the publicity and political consequences if they teach that defensive violence is okay and how to use it, then somebody beats up somebody using that knowledge. It becomes "politically unviable" even though it would probably help a lot overall. Kind of like legalization of marijuana.

My point wasn't that Rambo needed to kill the bad guy. I questioned why no one got involved even though they couldn't hide behind a magic wand

Yeah, me either. :-(

[Runcible Spoon]

55. this is only a few days after that hit and run where people stood there and did nothing

for several minutes the crowd just gawked or even walked away.

However your comment RE: gun ownership is a bit disturbing to me. Most citizens are not trained to anticipate correct and calm action in a crisis situation, I really don't want more guns in people's hands until the whole population is trained for some degree of crisis preparation, including gun safety. I'm in NO way pro-gun but color me crazy I believe in schools teaching gun safety too.

[krispos42]

61. Oh yeah, I'd forgotten about that Hartford incident

There's a certain logical connection, isn't there?

Regarding gun safety in schools, I think that's an excellent idea as part of a comprehensive class on household dangers, such as mixing ammonia and bleach together. But the anti-violence people will not be rational about it any more so than the anti-sex people are about comprehensive sex education.


The thing is that in most crisis situations that guns are used to defuse, most of them occur in the victim's own home, so we're talking about a very controlled and familiar environment where the victim has numerous laws protecting him or her if a gun is used. "Castle Doctrine" laws, for example. The victim does not have to worry about that "mugging" is really two undercover cops making a warrant arrest, for example, or trying to pick sides in brawl.

And people that legally carry in public are as a group one of the most law-abiding demographics possible.

Remember, only 1 in 6,000 defensive gun uses results in a justifiable homicide.

[benEzra]

62. And nobody carries pocketknives anymore?

No jack handles in the trunks of their vehicles?

Nobody even had a pepper spray?

[medeak]

19. man with gun just recently saved scores of lives

in my state...shooter killed two people and was reloading gun in crowded bar of 300 when man with concealed weapon license took him out. thank gawd.

[TomInTib]

20. I read about that.

That guy averted what surely would have been a catastrophe (not that it wasn't catastrophic for the two victims).

[madeline_con]

48. Were there no jacks, no tire irons?!

Damn! I'd so whack the guy in the head! :mad:

[mahina]

3. Hell readies a room, chapter 378

What a brutal tragedy.

[definitelygenius]

4. What a monster

We should all demand the maximum penalty for this "human being". He should be in jail for the rest of his life and then some.

[Shakespeare]

5. Re-read the headline. He was shot to death by police.

I won't mourn his passing.

[Schema Thing]

6. Free, plentiful mental healthcare for all people. Cradle to grave.

Is the only way we're ever going to build a civilization worth calling a civilization.

[IndyOp]

8. Thank you AT for your humane response. (n/t)

[Schema Thing]

12. You're welcome. Don't get me wrong. What I *want* right now

is to be able to stomp the life out of that man and save the child.

We can't always get what we want. Hopefully we'll be smart enough (someday) to provide ourselves what we need.

[bread_and_roses]

13. Not enough. Adults are dangerous to children.

There are stories like this every damn day, the only difference being that the murder/abuse usually occurs inside a home. The nuclear family is an utterly failed social arrangement. When we evolve some saner social arrangement (presuming we have the chance for social/cultural evolution, a premise that current trends make somewhat iffy), I hope we manage to come up with one that does better at protecting children.

[LiberalArkie]

30. They used to have the cradle to grave mental care. until all the stories started that

"It was easier to get into a mental institution than to get out". I think I remember many ACLU law suits about it. Then we started having people wander the streets that really needed treatment. Any one remember what was going on then?

[ret5hd]

39. What "was going on then" was Ray-Guns dismantling of our nations mental ...

health infrastructure.

[Carnea]

7. Fucking Nazi Pig Cops always shoot first..... They all should die pig motherfuckers....

Hold on it doesn't matter what the suspect was doing he should be tried before his peers and none of these all white hang em high juries either no justice no peace..... I don't care he probably had emotional problems or grew up poor THE FUCKING PIGS are gonna pay for this..... You can't call it baby stomping it bias the public against the victim here... he is guilty of no more than aggravated assault and perhaps a seat belt violation...


Hold on a second did you say Baby stomping????????


Um Never mind good shot by the pig and all....





:grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :evilfrown:

Sometimes one can't deal with the reality of mans inhumanity thats why gallows humor is so effective. just saying...

[davidinalameda]

25. good post

[elocs]

11. How exactly have you made our Father's Day better by posting this?

It will certainly be on the news, but why exactly does it merit this special attention? It's not like any of us are unaware that this sort of horror happens.

[Trajan]

14. I don't think the OP intended a specific 'Father's Day' thrust for this ...

It happened, it is Latest Breaking News, and it is absolutely heartbreaking ....

In all fairness: If one wishes to be happy on Father's Day, then one should steer well clear of LBN ...

[Liberal_in_LA]

15. It's news. This is where one reports news. Get over it.

[Shakespeare]

17. I was unaware I required your approval for what I choose to post.

And the post has nothing to do with father's day.

[bluestateguy]

18. This guy's body should be dumped into outer space, and then allowed to burn up in reentry

Ugh!

[frog92969]

21. Nice shot!

A bullet not wasted.

[yellerpup]

22. Sounds like methamphetamine-fueled rage.

I hope they find the baby's mother alive.

[debunkthelies]

23. Iraq Vet?

I'm wondering if he just got back from Iraq, I know most people just assume it's drugs but...who knows?

[windbreeze]

24. First thought that crossed my mind...sad isn't it??

to think we have to worry about such things..I can't even imagine seeing this happen....wb

[LeftyMom]

26. That's not near a base.

The commuter counties out in that valley are pretty much the epicenter of the mortgage meltdown, but some people are crazy as fuck, so there's not really any merit to guessing at their motivations.

[Zachstar]

33. I could care less if we was one in this case.

The Child is much higher priority.

[Runcible Spoon]

57. I think you're misinterpreting the poster's point..

I'm sure s/he was just commenting on the suspicion a lot of us have that Iraq war vets were exposed to some pretty hardcore shit, from torture/rape/murder/human rights abuses and likely also to damaging chemical agents; people that have been through ordeals like that are in mortal danger of becoming completely psychotic, distanced from reality, and capable of inexplicably cruel actions.

I don't think the poster meant "aww, sucks that guy died because he was a vet"

That's how I read it.

[Pavulon]

36. Who cares.

I dont care, no excuse for that. To bad he was not shot earlier.

[Runcible Spoon]

59. Well, I care because I want to know when the Bush gov't takes responsibility

for letting vets who are violently mentally ill out on the streets and ORDERING ARMED FORCES DOCTORS TO AVOID DIAGNOSING PTSD in these vets! After they are released from active duty, they face increasingly inadequate services, ESPECIALLY for mental health (always the first on the budgetary shopping block).

I'm not saying people shouldn't be held accountable for their actions. However this pig government exposed and ENCOURAGED their forces to all sorts of shocking horrors, rape/torture whatever, and then on top of that employed the use of chemical and biological agents we have never HEARD of.

YES I care to know what the fuck society plans to do about that!

If indeed this man was a vet, then Bush has contributed to the death of this poor little child.

[Pavulon]

63. I know plenty

of combat vets whose stories and lifelong trauma comes out in private after a few beers. I sit across the table from them on holidays. I will not recount them but horrific violence is not new.

Whatever this persons reason or background was is irrelevant.

Not all roads lead to bush, to push that is not reasonable.

[sojourner]

31. I don't usually like or support deadly force. BUT, in this case...I'm not going to shed any tears.

Why not? Because this man was in the act, and couldn't be stopped and because there might have been a slim chance the child might survive. Not sorry at all about the dead man. Not sorry at all.

[Zachstar]

32. Don't give me any Ron Paul crap about what I am going to say.

But some of you are beyond belief. You do massive harm when you try to talk against mob justice and police shooting when the first thing that pops into anyone's sane mind when reading this is rage.

The Paul shit ends when a child is involved. The child died in extreme pain. It's last thoughts were not of happiness or want of a toy but the extreme simple want of the scary man to leave him alone and the pain to end.

So you want to start preaching to me about how the officer or the people who attacked this sick monster is wrong you can PISS OFF!

[ret5hd]

40. Uhhhh...are you delusional or merely trying to stir shit where there is none???

[Zachstar]

42. Take a look at this topic. People sounding off idealistic crap in the face of this horror

[ret5hd]

44. Looking...looking...looking...

No, don't see nothing. Just one person pointing out that we need better mental health resources. Who could disagree with that???

So, I ask again. Are you delusional (and needing said mental health resources yourself)? Or are you merely trying to stir shit where there is none?

[Runcible Spoon]

60. I read every response in this thread..

and the overwhelming consensus is this guy needed to die; the controversy is why people wathching did nothing earlier...

[Pavulon]

34. human filth

should have just hung himself and left the child alone.

Glad he is dead, hope he had time realize what a piece of shit he was while bleeding out.

Horrific story.

[Rowdyboy]

35. I'm very sorry it was too late to save the child....God rest his soul

[AbbeyRoad]

37. Sick and tragic

I feel nauseous after reading this.

[rasputin1952]

38. There are times for action. Each of those in that crowd that did

not ry to stop this horror, are just as guilty as the perpetrator. I do not know what puts fear into people, I do not know why people do not act when they should. But whether it be one individual that acts, or a dozen, action needs to be taken.

The group could have dome something, just one individual rushing the man doing the beating would have made others engage. Are we so filled with fear and horror that we can no longer act?

I am no hero, but I would have put my life on the line to save that child.

[Zachstar]

43. Amen

A few did engage. But a few is not enough. When we freeze and fail to act in situations like this is makes us ripe for the picking when it comes to .gov spreading its power.

Assholes do not fear people... Why should the gov?

[rasputin1952]

47. I am not a violent man, but I learned how to defend myself

many years ago. This was not a "fistfight" it was murder...all bets are off.

Thumbs to eyes, you betcha: ripping off his scrotum, you betcha: face in the mud until he stops struggling, you bethcha....Look, as I said, I'm no hero, but when it comes to a child being abused, I'll do whatever it takes to stop the abuse.

I might wind up in court for battery, but I am willing to bet that the jury would exonerate me.

[RamboLiberal]

49. Perhaps many in the crowd were incapable of going after this guy

He's 27, jacked up apparently on something. We don't know how big he was. And we don't know the age or sex of many of the bystanders. What if most were incapable of going after this guy? 2 did try to intervene and were thrown off by this madman.

Some guy jacked up like this madman it can take a half-dozen big cops to take down. I'm not passing judgement on the bystanders till I know more.

[Devil Dog Dem]

46. If armed I would have shot him dead. If unarmed, I would have fought him to the death

This sick bastard.

[Sultana]

51. I feel sick

Poor baby :cry:

The evil in this world is just too much. :(

[FedUpWithIt All]

52. Arrrghggh!!!!

He took the baby out of a CAR SEAT so he could beat him to death.:cry:

So sick of this bullshit.

[charlie]

64. It was the kid's father

http://www.fresnobee.com/updates/story/671887.html

Eyewitnesses said he was distressed about "demons" in the boy.

http://origin.mercurynews.com/news/ci_9599903
http://www.kmph.com/Global/story.asp?S=8496239&nav=menu612_2_7

[Manifestor_of_Light]

65. Another insane fundie.

They think all mental problems and childhood disobedience is caused by "demon possession". It's the Dark Ages!

[Duke Newcombe]

68. "Fundie"?

WTF? Not every deranged loon spouting off about demons is a "fundie", nor needs to be associated with fundies. Just sayin'.

Duke