Illegal Chiropractor Snaps Man's Neck: Man declared brain dead

[Liberal_in_LA]

Source: kcra news

Police: Illegal Chiropractor Snaps Man's Neck
Victim Declared Brain Dead

POSTED: 1:41 pm PDT June 13, 2008
UPDATED: 3:33 pm PDT June 13, 2008


SACRAMENTO, Calif. -- A man who allegedly ran an unlicensed chiropractic business was arrested after leaving one of his patients near death, police said Friday.

Authorities said Antonio Arellano, 76, was taken into custody on suspicion of homicide after operating his clinic in the 4000 block of Washington Avenue.

On Tuesday, a 66-year-old man was accompanied by his wife during a trip to Arellano's home to get a physical adjustment to relieve pain, police Sgt. Matt Young said.

Arellano adjusted the victim's neck, seriously injuring him. Police said the man was driven to the UC Davis Medical Center and placed on life support.

The victim, whose name was not provided, was eventually declared brain dead, Young said.

Read more: http://www.kcra.com/news/16602080/detail.html

[Deja Q]

1. Licensed ones aren't so great either...

Looking forward to my next surgery... I'll leave it at that for now.

[nodehopper]

45. as with everything else, it depends on the person

After two years of chronic pain, my chiropractor (who came recommended via a university clinical research center) helped me tremendously, where all the conventional specialists couldn't treat or diagnose anything.

[kestrel91316]

109. I dunno. A chiropracter worked a frickin' MIRACLE on my back/neck.

[alfredo]

2. A Chiropractor broke my Grandfather's back. It killed him.

[honey.pie]

114. a chiropractor broke my grandfathers back

I am sorry to hear this...very sorry for your loss.

I am curious too though. If it is not too painful, please tell who the chiropractor was. Where and when did that happen. I have never heard of such a thing even though I know many DCs and have had many adjustments.

I want to know more about this. Was it in the news?

peace&love

[janetblond]

3. Not surprising .. chiropractors ARE dangerous!

After going to "licensed" ones, I ended up getting surgery.
License or no license .. I'll NEVER go back to a chiropractor.
They're Dangerous!

[BearSquirrel2]

38. The term "Doctor" is too loosely regulated ...

The Chiropracters do not do scientific peer reviewed literature. There is little or scant evidence that they do anything above or beyond hyper extending joints and expensive massages. This is a lot of risk for so little documented return.

My opinion ... they're pretty much all QUACKS!!!! Same goes for acupuncture and Chinese medicine. Likely there are a few gems to be plucked by legitimate doctors, but on the whole, it's basically all fraud.

[ima_sinnic]

43. you are simply ignorant about acupuncture and Chinese medicine

I am too tired to go into it now, but educate yourself before you make such pronouncements based on nothing but your uninformed opinion.

[BearSquirrel2]

51. No controlled double blind studies ...

Beyond the fact that TCM practitioners do NOT do controlled studies, certain interest doctors (as in they are actually MDs) have. They have invented a sham needle. What they found .... limited results.

The more distressing aspect of TCM is that TCM practioners have low correlation diagnosing disorders. So the same set of symptoms will produce "liver Qi defficiency" with one doctor or "spleen Qi blockage" with another and so on. And then each "practitioner" will have their own treatment for each diagnoses.

The most distressing aspect of TCM is the disease theory relies on something that cannot be measured ... Qi "energy". It's the same for subluxations or humors. They might as well be trying to put your thetans back in balance. It's really great to see Chiropracters getting into this field as it puts all the quackery under one roof. Make them scientologists, reflexologists and aromatherapists all in one and you'll have yourself full service "Quackie-Marts".

[Sanity Claws]

101. You're wrong

Acupuncture has been proved to be effective for several problems, including pain, addiction, and migraines.
As for difference in diagnoses, I don't know what your source is but in Western medicine, many doctors also come up with different diagnoses for the same person. Thus, if that were an important consideration, you should also trash Western medicine.
But I get the impression that I'm wasting my time talking to you. Your mind is closed.

[Q3JR4]

110. Here's some information

WITH (I might add) citations to back up the claims....

http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/acu.html

I'd agree that someone needs to educate themselves, but I don't agree with you about who that person is...

Q3JR4.

[hlthe2b]

4. The husband of my Mom's childhood friend developed numbness

and tingling (radiating) up his left arm, dizziness and nausea. Sadly, he went to his chiropractor who decided the symptoms emanated from lower back pain and disk impingement, performing an adjustment.

My friend's husband barely made it home hours later, dropping dead of an MI. That the chiropractor would not recognize these core symptoms of a pending heart attack was eye opening and tragic, to say the least. How I wish someone with medical knowledge might have been able to intervene, as my Mom's friend, the widow, never forgave herself for sending him to the chiropractor.

[uppityperson]

7. I had those symptoms, turned out it WAS a pinched nerve and chiro fixed it.

There are quacks in all fields, and unfortunately malpractice in most. There is no 1 right cure for everything for everyone. There are unscrupulous chiropractors, like there are MDs and NDs.

[hlthe2b]

8. The point is that a competent chiropractor would have made

sure that your symptoms were not caused by coronary heart disease and a pending acute event. Things like questioning about medical history, BP, chest pain, etc., etc. And, yes, there are good chiropractors, but the tightening up of education and licensure had not occurred at that time.

Sadly, there are schools of chiropractic education (e.g., Life COllege in Marietta, GA in the 1980s and early 90s) that were sold by infomercial and whose students were taught that chiropractic therapy "cured" polio and that that and other vaccines were totally unnecessary (among other very unconventional and unscientific teachings).

I have collaborated on reseach projects with (and fully respect) several competent chiropractors, along with orthopedic surgeons, physical therapists and others within a multi-disciplinary continuum. But, those who are competent, know when to refer and do not make dangerous assumptions.

[Donnachaidh]

12. Life College lost it's accreditation not too long ago

I can't recall whether or not they got it back. Left quite a few students high and dry.

[hlthe2b]

15. Interesting... I lost track after about the mid 90s...

But, damn did they do some damage to some vulnerable young minds...(and likely their patients).

[Blue_Tires]

54. wow...

i went to college in Atlanta, and remember the Life commercials on TV....

[deadmessengers]

64. Yep...

I live in the same county as Life College, and I used to live in an apartment complex that might as well have been a Life dorm there were so many students living there. I've been on the receiving end of the chiroquacktic salespitch more times than I can remember. In fact, I bowled in a bowling league that had a couple of teams comprised entirely of Life students. I remember getting a good laugh out of seeing them give each other adjustments between frames. I also remember that the Life students I knew had an almost religious devotion to chiropractic - it was a little weird. The salespitch they would deliver to all that would be willing to listen would have embarrassed a Jehovah's Witness in it's bizarro-land zeal.

Something interesting to note that appeared in the local paper a few years ago, was that, before Life lost it's accreditation, it had the highest rate of student loan default of any school in the US. They are still around, however they did have to sell off about half their campus to another, more reputable school (Southern Polytechnic) nearby.

[uppityperson]

13. I agree. He was not a chiropractor, even though he played on. And he was NOT competent.

for anyone being in health care.

[Zhade]

17. You don't *know* that your quackopractor fixed it. You assume s/he did.

But could the non-doctor prove with established medical science how you were healed? Nope.

That's why they're not real doctors.

[uppityperson]

48. 1 of the 3 times I've ever used a chiropractor.

It was a pinched nerve in my neck, from using my upper body and having a muscle spasm. Muscle relaxed, he twisted my neck, immediate relief. It was a DC, not just a chiropractor. That is Doctor of Chiropractic here in WA. Since the only symptoms were what I said, and they went away right afterward, he fixed me.

Other times were a pain in my foot, and after I concussed/whiplashed myself doing a massage (freak accident). Here in WA they are real Doctors.

http://www.chirohealth.org/chiropractictrust.htm
https://fortress.wa.gov/doh/hpqa1/hps3/Chiropractic/default.htm

[Critters2]

35. Why would you go to a chirpractor for nausea and dizziness?

Why on God's green earth didn't you go to a real doctor?! Hlthe2b is right...those are classic cardiac symptoms. A careful chiropractor would have sent you to an MD or a DO. You're damn lucky.

[uppityperson]

50. I was checked and no I didn't have a heart attack but a pinched nerve in my neck.

My main symptoms were weakness & discomfort in my left arm and a bit of nausea/dizziness, typical symptoms for a woman having a heart attack. I was checked, I wasn't, but had a pinched nerve in my neck. And no, the DC did not just treat me without checking.

Thank you for your concern about me.

[LordJFT]

37. My dad brother and some of my friends have had good experiences with chiropractors as well

They're not all bad

[BearSquirrel2]

40. Subluxations ...

This is likely true, but the core disease theory of Chiropracty is that all disease comes from misalignments of the spine (subluxations). No one has ever proven the existence of a subluxation. You can neither measure it with instruments, nor read it from an X-Ray. They know because they'll give X-Rays to multiple chiropracters and they'll give wildly different answers.

Now if your complete system of reason is based on a lie, how "great" can a "doctor" be. I'm sure Chiropracters that are respected by doctors are administering Spinal Manipulation Therapy for very specific causes. But here they are leaning on western medicine rather that subluxation theory.

So ... why go to "medical school" to learn SMT? Why do we call these guys "doctors"? If the internalist is going to prescribe the therapy, why not just have the physical therapist (who are not considered "doctors") administer the SMT. They have better schooling anyway!!!!

Sure, you have guys who are trying to live down the cracker jack diploma on their wall. But wouldn't it make better sense to reform the entire field. Once upon a time, those who studied the stars believed they governed our lives. Then sensible people came along and said they didn't and they are called astronoMERS not astroloGERS. Of course, when your entire livelyhood is based on a lie (subluxations) it's kinda hard to turn your back on it. It's far easier to continue treating flus with back-cracking.

[Haole Girl]

62. I guess this means you don't read your daily horoscope?

:rofl:

[superconnected]

46. Yeah, But even I recongized those symptoms as a probable heart attack.

The Chiro should have. Just because you had them and it wasn't, isn't an excuse not to at least recognize them and start asking questions about heart trouble.

[uppityperson]

53. As a nurse, I did. So did he. I wasn't, but had a pinched nerve.

he fixed it. OF COURSE HE RECOGNIZED THE SYMPTOMS as did I. He asked, I got checked, I didn't. So he fixed me.

There are unethical MDs, NDs, DCs, most all of them have unethical and incompetent people. But competent ethical chiropractors can do good, as can competent ethical MDs and NDs.

[Heddi]

115. how could he check you to make sure you weren't having an MI?

Did he draw cardiac enzymes? did he do an EKG? CBC? Chem 10 or Chem 7?

I'm wondering how, exactly, he "checked" you to make sure you weren't having cardiac issues if he didn't do any of the above. For the record, I am a nurse specialized in cardiac care, so I know how to properly diagnose and rule out a plethora of cardiac issues. Spinal manipulation isn't one of them. Neither is NOT doing an EKG, NOT drawing cardiac enzymes (generally more than one set...), NOT doing basic blood work.

Maybe he knows some super magical way to rule out MI that us podunk western med shills don't ? :shrug:

[jeff30997]

5. Gee.

I put Chiropractors and Chiromancers (palm readers)in the same category:Crooks.

[uppityperson]

6. Not "illegal" but Fake. He was NOT a chiropractor. Here's more...

This is not a chiropractor who was illegal, but someone who was not a chiropractor at all. Taking 1 massage class 60 yrs ago does not qualify anyone to be a chiropractor. Go to school for many yrs, lots of classes, lots of intellectual and hands on training. Take the licensing test and pass it. Then you can call yourself a chiropractor.

It sounds like this guy was acting far beyond what he should have been doing. I know a massage therapist who does adjustments, have had people ask me to adjust them like that mt does and I always say "hell no". Not enough training to ever do that.

http://www.mercurynews.com/news/ci_9587937

Fake chiropractor accused of killing patient


SACRAMENTO—Sacramento police say a 76-year-old man operating an unlicensed chiropractic clinic out of his garage is suspected of killing one of his patients with a neck manipulation. Antonio Arellano was booked into the Sacramento County jail Friday on suspicion of murder.

Police Sgt. Matt Young says 64-year-old Jose Lopez sought help from Arellano for pain in his extremities Tuesday. Arellano adjusted the victim's neck, seriously injuring Lopez and leaving him unconscious.

He was placed on life support but was declared dead two days later.

Arellano's only apparent training was a massage class he took in the 1940s, but Young says Arellano had a following and handed out business cards in his neighborhood.

[progdonkey]

10. "Fake chiropractor" is redundant.

Chiropractors are charlatans, in the same group as psychics, palm readers, feng shui practitioners, astrologers, and so on. Just because they put on white coats like real doctors doesn't mean they are doctors or should be given any responsibility over another person's health.

[uppityperson]

11. Not always. I don't think they are regulated enough, but they can and have done some

good also.

[progdonkey]

105. then it's coincidental...

Not every problem requires surgery, and sometimes all a person really does need is for some "readjustment."

The issue, though, is why a particular treatment is used. Chiropractic has no basis in fact, but sometimes it might happen to work, but that doesn't mean it's actually valid as a method of treatment.

For instance, say someone has a dislocated joint, and after a full examination, the surgeon decides that in this particular instance all the patient really needs is to have the joint popped back into place with brute force. A chiropractor would probably do the same thing, and the patient would be fine, but it would be merely coincidental since in this particular case, the scientifically based treatment lined up with the crank-based one. It would be nothing more than luck on the part of the chiropractor that his unscientific diagnosis turned out to be the same as the scientific one.

Or, to use a non-medicine-related example, a "psychic" might be correct about the location of a body, but that's the first time in 1000. Proper forensic science and basic detective work is still far more useful and fact-based.

[Leeny]

14. Oh bull!

Have you ever been to one? I've been going to the same chiropractor for over 10 years whenever I need an adjustment. I've never been hurt and I've learned more from him about my back issues than from either my primary care doctor or the physical therapist.

Generalizations and stereotypes are the sign of a lazy mind.

[ben_meyers]

18. Oh B.S.

Has anyone ever been to a chiropractor who didn't need an "adjustment"?

[Critters2]

23. And scoliosis. Everyone is told they have scoliosis.

When I moved here and met with my new MD for the first time, I told her I have a significant scoliosis. She rolled her eyes and asked me if a chiropractor had told me that. I told her understand that attitude, but that, no, several real doctors had diagnosed it, and I'd worn a brace for 8 years. She then did a check of my spine and apologized. I assured her that I was not offended. I know how often chiropractors diagnose people with this, whether they have it or not.

[uppityperson]

55. Broadbrushing there. "Everyone"? Pshaw. eom

[Critters2]

59. Yeah. DCs tell EVERYONE they have scoliosis. My favorites are the ones

who set up exhibits at county fairs, diagnose every fairgoer with scoliosis and promise they can cure it with a few "adjustments".

Seriously, what kind of doctor practices in the exhibition hall of a county fair?

Chiropractors. That's what kind.

[uppityperson]

63. What state is that since that is very pitiful.I've never been told I have scoliosis.

Of course I have only gone to competent ethical ones for a specific problem, which was fixed. And here in WA they are regulated more than what you are talking about.

[Critters2]

68. Two different states. What I described is the norm. 4 years of schooling.

The 6 year programs require two years (not 4) of undergrad first--not a degree, just the equivalent of an associate's. No self-respecting medical school, not even offshore, would accept a student without a bachelor's. And the two year of undergrad thing was just invented to get state regulators off their backs, not out of any sense of professional integrity. Palmer Junior College was founded so that Palmer Chiro students could get their two years of undergrad before going to chiro school. And no, there is no practicum required. They walk out of school and hang out a shingle.

As I said, I have more education than a chiropractor. But in an ethical field, I can only claim a Master's.

[Critters2]

70. You diodn't need to be told you had scoliosis. You were already hooked.

Scoliosis is their primary sales pitch.

[uppityperson]

72. Broadbrushing and you are accusing me wrongly.

Seeing a DC 3 times for specific problems was "hooked"? And even though you are told of chiropractors who don't diagnose everyone with scoliosis, still they do?

You have an issue far beyond what can be dealt with here. I am sorry that you feel so strongly to not be able to read what I write, to have to assume that I am "hooked" because I was treated for a specific issue. Good luck.

[woo me with science]

100. Yep. But what they "diagnose" depends on their referral source.

Many are linked with shady doctors and lawyers who are accident vultures. They watch automobile accident reports and will barrage all parties with letters begging them to come in to diagnose spinal or neck "injuries you may not even know you have."

Others work closely with homeopaths or "energy therapists" to diagnose and heal spinal ailments that don't exist.

I know of a couple who refer back and forth with repressed memory therapists. Women creating abuse memories in therapy are told they have a "tilted pelvis" related to all the abuse.

[Carnea]

39. Really there right up there with psychoanalysts.

A friend of mine strained her back after doing the 20 hour straight threw drive. Now some bed rest might of fixed it but she went to a chiropractor within six months she was in the hospital having pins put in. :eyes:

Yet I still have dozen on friends that swear by their chiropractor they have been going for years.... Me I'll take a professional masseuse and occasionally and amateur masseuse. At least my massage ends with a smile not a hospital visit.

[uppityperson]

56. Massage therapist, not masseuse.

If you are going to use a massage therapist, at least call them that. Unless you do use a masseuse, what with the happy ending. But every ethical and competent massage therapist I know wishes to be called the appropriate term.

[Carnea]

65. By professional massuse I meant massage therapist...

but that may not be right. They are not fixing anything in particular they come to the office and you put your face in that donut thing and the give you a massage. The other kind is at a spa or hotel or visit you at home and they give you a full body massage with scented oils and relaxing music.

I'm not sure which is the massage therapist.

[uppityperson]

69. Massage therapists do massage therapy.

Relaxation massages can be therapeutic, can help you feel and function better. "Masseuse" is incorrect as that implies the "happy ending" type massages which we (yes, I am a massage therapist) are trying to get past. I do a fair amount of work on people who are injured, either in car accidents or on the job injuries. Funny thing about WA L&I (labor and industry, on the job injuries). They prefer people who have hurt their backs to have a combination of massage and chiropractic treatments as they recover faster with less likelihood of reinjury that the old rest, pain meds, muscle relaxants.

But hey, I'm obviously prejudiced, being in the business. I got into nursing wayyyyy back before there was national certification, and nurses were expected to stand up for doctors (rise to your feet if a doctor came near). Now I'm doing the same for massage therapy. Trying to help regulate it, make it a true health care offer, not just unproven unprovable unscientific jargonistic crap.

Plus I get paid to hurt people to make them better. woohoo!

[Carnea]

73. Good for you I do the non theraputic relaxation massage... But I commend you on your work. NT

[uppityperson]

75. As I said, I think, that can be therapeutic also.

anti-stress helps. Stress yourself too much and you stand more chance of getting sick. Stress prevention is a good thing. It's always fun when someone wants "only" a relaxation massage. I get both kinds, at different times for different reasons. Sometimes it just feels good, makes me feel better and better able to deal with life. Which is good. Sometimes it is to repair repetitive usage injuries.

[Leeny]

42. I'm well-adjusted

Ha ha ha. I went to the chiropractor after the doctor and physical therapy didn't work. But whatever floats your boat, or feeds your goat, or makes you gloat, ... too much wine, time for bed.:crazy:

[dysfunctional press]

97. i went to a chiropractor and she refused to do an adjustment- she also correctly diagnosed my AS...

i was having back pain after a bad car accident, and decided to give a chiropractor a try. at the initial consultation, she did a set of spinal x-rays, and i came back to her office several days later.

she told me that based on what she saw in my x-rays, it would be dangerous for her to do any manipulations. she told me that i had a condition i had never heard of: ankylosing spondylitis- a slow and painful "natural" fusing of the spine (natural, as opposed to a surgical procedure to do so). at 35 years of age at the time, the condition had been mis/un-diagnosed by a number of medical doctors and orthopedists.

[Codeine]

24. They don't "adjust" anything.

That popping noise is just cavitation. It amazes me that this wackiness is still popular -- or even legal.

[Leeny]

28. Has worked for me

Well, I can only speak for myself, but I swear by the chiropractor I go to.

[BearSquirrel2]

41. You can learn about ID from a Baptist Preacher ...

You can learn a lot about Intelligent Design from a Baptist preacher. That doesn't speak anything to whether the information is true or not. I had on and off back pain for years and everytime it had gone away all by itself. If I was seeing a chiropracter each time, I would prescribe this the back cracker. When in fact, it was just my back curing itself.

I'm not saying this is true in every case. But the thing is, without conducting a controlled study, you cannot tell. Here's the rub, CHIROPRACTERS DO NOT DO CONTROLLED STUDIES!!! So there. It's no more scientific than intelligent design. You might as well have a chinaman sticking needles in your back and adjusting the flow of your "Qi". It's just as reasonable as a ChiroQuack adjusting your "subluxations".

[BuddhaGirl]

98. "chinaman sticking needles in your back"

are you kidding me? Crawl back under your rock, why don't you. Pathetic. :eyes:

BTW, it's chiropractor with an "o" not "e." And I love mine. Without him, I'd have chronic pain.

[progdonkey]

103. "generalizations and stereotypes are the sign of a lazy mind"

As is believing anecdotal "evidence." Plenty of people have gone to astrologers for 10, 20, 30 years, and they'll tell you that their astrologer "knows things," and so on. Scientific merit is not based on how many people buy into it, it's based on what's supported by the data. Chiropractic is crap.

No, I've never been to one. I've never had a shaman roll chicken bones and tell me my fortune, either. It doesn't mean I can't correctly label it as fiction.

[Zhade]

16. Yep. They're not QUALIFIED to practice medicine.

That's why they're not real doctors. The efficacy of their "practice" has never been established.

[Codeine]

9. ALL chiropractors should be illegal.

Quackery of a dangerous and destructive sort.

[Zhade]

19. I agree. Quackopractors are unfit to touch patients - they aren't real doctors.

NT!

[treblemaker]

20. Strongly disagree.

Mine has helped me immensely with pain management.

[Critters2]

21. All chiropractic should be illegal.

The very theory behind it is junk science. If "luxations" of the spine cause illness, someone with scoliosis as bad as I have would be on my death bed. But I'm fine.

I grew up in the city where chiropractic was invented, and heard every wacky claim for it. Let's just say I'm skeptical.

[Jackpine Radical]

22. Conventional medicine, on the other hand, kills only about 225,000

people in America every year due to medical errors. And that's just in the hospitals and not including the outpatient deaths caused by prescribing errors and the like.

Sure there are stupid and dangerous chiropractors. But in reality, there are a lot more stupid and dangerous MD's

[BearSquirrel2]

44. Fallacious numerical argument ...

That would mean that they killed 2 million people since 2000. I suggest you revisit your sources and provide links to us.

Beyond this, there are WAY more MDs out there than Chiro-quacks. Any treatment with the potential to help has a potential to do harm. When you combine the numbers with the fact that back cracking in most cases doesn't do anything at all.

So yeah, I'm sure people actually treating patients will do more harm then charging them to crack-backs in order to treat diabetes or some bullshit of that sort. But let us not forget, when the patient collapses from neglectful chiropractic treatment, they are not ambulanced to a chiro clinic. They go to an emergency room. Who's death column does that go into.

[Jackpine Radical]

52. Here's some old data, ultimately from JAMA. It's gfotten worse since then.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/11856.php

An average of 195,000 people in the USA died due to potentially preventable, in-hospital medical errors in each of the years 2000, 2001 and 2002, according to a new study of 37 million patient records that was released today by HealthGrades, the healthcare quality company.

The HealthGrades Patient Safety in American Hospitals study is the first to look at the mortality and economic impact of medical errors and injuries that occurred during Medicare hospital admissions nationwide from 2000 to 2002. The HealthGrades study applied the mortality and economic impact models developed by Dr. Chunliu Zhan and Dr. Marlene R. Miller in a research study published in the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) in October of 2003. The Zhan and Miller study supported the Institute of Medicine's (IOM) 1999 report conclusion, which found that medical errors caused up to 98,000 deaths annually and should be considered a national epidemic.

The HealthGrades study finds nearly double the number of deaths from medical errors found by the 1999 IOM report "To Err is Human," with an associated cost of more than $6 billion per year. Whereas the IOM study extrapolated national findings based on data from three states, and the Zhan and Miller study looked at 7.5 million patient records from 28 states over one year, HealthGrades looked at three years of Medicare data in all 50 states and D.C. This Medicare population represented approximately 45 percent of all hospital admissions (excluding obstetric patients) in the U.S. from 2000 to 2002.

[BearSquirrel2]

57. Do you assert ...

Do you assert that if hospitals were staffed by back-crackers and massage therapists instead of surgeons and nurses, there would be less death?

If not, It's hard to tell why you bring this up.

Of course, generally it's not M.D.s that run hospitals. So under-staffing and bureaucratic overhead is not their problem. Nor is the burden placed on the health care system by insurance. And of course, this is why so many quacks choose Chiro, they are Medicaire approved so they can also bilk Uncle Sam as well as their individual patients.

[closeupready]

67. What's a "back-cracker"? Is that like "moran"? Or "respect are culture - speak English"?

:rofl:

[BearSquirrel2]

82. A popular euphamism for Chiropracter ...

Because that's what they do ... they cavitate the joints in your spine as you would your knuckles (cracking your knuckles).

Sorry if the word crack has a distracting connotation for you.

[closeupready]

96. I'm 42 and never ever heard that silly word before. And it's "chiropractor" not chiropracter.

oh and euphemism not euphamism.

I'm seeing a pattern here. :rofl: Carry on, I've got better discussions in which to engage.

[marzipanni]

112. I worked for three chiropractors in one office

In the early eighties I requested a new patient's x-rays to be sent to our office from an HMO. They would not send them to a chiropractor, therefore the patient would be exposed to an unnecessary dose of radiation and the expense of more x-rays. Several months later I read in the local newspaper that that same HMO had hired chiropractors to be on its staff. Were they just trying to get their share of the pie, or were they discovering that chiropractic can help people?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10165554

[closeupready]

60. Pfffftt. Junk science. Is that all you got?

Besides, the Earth is overpopulated anyway. If these mistakes help relieve pressure on the Earth's ecosystem, who are we to complain? :sarcasm:

[closeupready]

49. ROFL... STOP! STOP WITH THE FACTS!

:mad: Don't you GET IT? We're trying to play 'can you top this?' and all you wanna do is inject some reality here. Jerk. :sarcasm:


:rofl:

[uppityperson]

58. Thank you. Well said.

[moriverrat]

92. Antitrust case against the AMA

Wilk v. American Medical Association, 895 F.2d 352 (7th Cir. 1990), was a federal antitrust suit brought against the American Medical Association (AMA) and 10 co-defendants by chiropractor Chester A. Wilk, DC, and four co-plaintiffs. It resulted in a ruling against the AMA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilk_v._American_Medical_Association

[yurbud]

94. how many people go to real doctors vs. chiropractors? That would put that number in perspective

More people die in their bathtub everyday than are eaten by sharks, but then you have to factor in the number of people swimming in shark infested water versus those taking baths, and the shark looks a little more dangerous again.

[Robb]

25. Chiropractors should be regulated to the point

...where they can only start monkeying around with people who are otherwise outstandingly healthy.

[OwnedByFerrets]

26. I love my chiropractor....

she is wonderful and has kept me out of probable surgery.


www.wearableartnow.com

[Critters2]

27. And you know this how? nt

[Codeine]

29. The chiropractor said. ;-) nt

[Critters2]

30. My point precisely. Thank you. nt

[elocs]

31. A chiropractor sees any new patient as the gravy train.

Weekly adjustments for life. I have friends who swear by them when they go for an adjustment, but then they have to go for another one, and another one, and another......................................

Nine years ago I had a ruptured disk. I had back surgery done by a neurosurgeon who just came from the Mayo Clinic in Rochester. I went home the next day with a bottle of Percocet and never took a single one. Since then I rarely ever take any kind of pain killer and will have to throw away a bottle of ibuprofen because it has expired. In 9 years I have not missed a day of work because of any back problem and the best thing of all is that I have never seen a chiropractor and never ever will anymore than I would go to see a witch doctor. Although those who go to witch doctors swear by them too.

[Kali]

87. actually the success rate for surgery is comparable to rest

[elocs]

95. Well, I was in such incredible pain that rest was absolutely impossible.

I could not lay down and I could not stand up and walk. Resting would not have unruptured my disk which the MRI clearly showed was ruptured and compressing a nerve that gave me severe sciatic pain. In my case the surgery has given me years of pain free living. Perhaps the millions of people who constantly have to go to a chiropractor for "adjustments" might actually benefit as much from rest.

[Kali]

106. your surgery was obviously a success (congrats, back pain is a ...well ...PAIN!)

I was not talking about chiro at all. In researching the issue of back pain I learned that surgery is about as successful as meds/rest.

[Dogmudgeon]

32. Outrageous! Outlaw them all!

Only licensed PHYSICIANS should be permitted to kill patients!

--p!

[ladywnch]

33. Well, chiropractors have kept me off pain pills and staved off surgery

that other doctors wanted to do. All they want to do is drug or cut.

Chiropractors actually take more hours than general practitioners do. They don't take as much in epidemiology and diagnostics as GPs but everything else is the same and more in orthopedics.

My chiropractor has also taken up acupuncture as well. He has done wonders for both my husband and I.

I have also known some real losers in both chiropractic and general medicine.

[Critters2]

36. No they don't!!

"Chiropractors actually take more hours than general practitioners do. They don't take as much in epidemiology and diagnostics as GPs but everything else is the same and more in orthopedics."

That is nonsense. Chiropractors have less education than I do, and I can't call myself "Dr.". Some schools of chiropractic don't even require an undergrad degree before entering. They certainly DO NOT take more hours than MDs.

[uppityperson]

61. That depends on the state. They do need to be more regulated under national standard.

Some require 6 yrs of college, and a couple more working with someone before they can go out on their own. It depends on the state.

[Critters2]

66. Please. I went to high school with two guys who started chiro school

the same time I started undergrad. They got their degrees, their "doctorates", the same time I got my BA. I couldn't visit people in the hospital without three more years of school, but these guys were "doctors"?

Why would anyone go to them for a medical problem?

[uppityperson]

71. As I said, that depends on the state. They do need to be more regulated under national standard.

That depends on the state. They do need to be more regulated under national standard.

Some require 6 yrs of college, and a couple more working with someone before they can go out on their own. It depends on the state.

[Critters2]

74. Again, you're mistaken.

But even if you weren't, you've admitted the falseness of your "more hours than a GP" bs. MDs and DOs are required 4 years of undergrad (more than DCs), 4 years of medical school, and between 3 and 7 years of residency--more if they're specializing. Nowhere near the 4, maybe 6, years required of a DC. And most schools of chiropractic have admissions requirements as low as a 2.5 average in high school or community college. Try getting into medical school with a 2.5. Hell, try getting into an English grad program with grades that low.

[uppityperson]

76. They need to be more regulated under national standard.

Some require 6 yrs of college, and a couple more working with someone (not sure if it is called internship and don't want to claim knowledge beyond what I have) before they can go out on their own. It depends on the state since there is not a national standard. DC's I know are working towards getting a national standard since they want to make it more professional than it has been in the back.

If you think I am mistaken in this, I am sorry for you.

[Critters2]

77. Actually, the profession has a history of fighting regulation and licensure.

Just as they refuse to do double-blind and otherwise controlled studies of their work.

[uppityperson]

78. Those aren't the professionals, and not the ones I know.

The ones I know, the ones working to professionalize it are the ones I consider professionals.



I can't speak about double-blind/etc scientific studies as I don't know for sure about that. But here is a picture for you instead (posted earlier and I really like it):

[uppityperson]

107. They "refuse" to do studies like this one? Here is a recent one on bp and chiro.

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/OnCall/Story?id=4520614

By LARA NAAMAN AND IMAEYEN IBANGA
March 25, 2008


Though doctors are unsure of what causes blood pressure to increase, a new study suggests that a specific type of neck adjustment may reduce hypertension for some of the 65 million Americans battling it.

The University of Chicago study, published in the Journal of Human Hypertension this month, looked at the possibility of a connection between a spinal realignment and a decrease in blood pressure.

"We set up a double-blind study to really look and see if in fact this procedure was affecting high blood pressure," said University of Chicago Medical Center hypertension specialist George Bakris.

The results were intriguing. The patients who received the chiropractic adjustments saw their blood pressure drop an average of 17 points -- a dip that usually takes two blood pressure medications to achieve....

[uppityperson]

102. "more hours than a GP" was not my assertation. Check posters IDs please

before accusing 1 of what another has posted.

[NV Whino]

34. I have a great chiropractor

I trust him more than I trust my MD.

Granted there are bad or ill-trained chiropractors. But those who are trained properly are worth their weight in gold. And those who are trained properly know when to send you to an MD.

[BearSquirrel2]

47. As in ....

So this you mean if the doctor weighed 200#, he would bilk his patients out of 200# worth a gold per year from his sham "medicine". Back cracking is not medicine. It's what I do with my knuckles, except it requires a second party, and a cracker jack degree.

[skyounkin]

79. See, the issue here is knowledge

I never knew Chiropractice was considered a "quack-science". I had NO clue that they didn't do double blind studies. (Let's ignore the fact that I can't remeber how a DB study is even done-LOL)

Here is the thing though- Chiropractice helps some people. OR they at least thinks it helps them. So, really on SOME level they are being helped. Much like alot of things out there- not everything will work for everyone but some things will help some people. Like Scientology- sure it's completely whacked out BUT some people have been helped by this "religion".

I have issues with Pyschiatry- I have seen a therapist- and when I wanted to stop I stopped. But was a cured? Some Psychiatrists will abuse this- I felt like the last one I saw abused it a little- I wanted to stop but they wanted me to keep coming, they put off writing reciepts so I could file claims with my insurance.

The rub here, the people who are being helped by whatever, have convinced themselves so much that this one specific thing is helping them they are too scared or insecure to stop. Kind of like addiction, almost.......

[Critters2]

81. Did you even read the OP?

The man is dead. That's an odd kind of "help".

[uppityperson]

83. An MD killed a cousin. That was an odd sort of "help" also.

They sued and got a bunch of money and the MD was made to stop working but my cousin is still dead and his kids lost their father and we lost a loved one. Still, bet some people still see MDs.

[Critters2]

84. How did this MD "kill" your cousin? nt

[uppityperson]

85. Misdiagnosed something that even a nurses assistant would probably know.

Ignored the warning signs, didn't treat properly. Other than that, I am unwilling to share on a public forum as it is not mine to share. When I learned of what he had was being treated for, and for what symptoms, I knew why he died and the autopsy proved me correct. He was seeing a MD for a problem and was misdiagnosed in a really stupid and bad way. If the MD had actually treated him properly, he wouldn't have died. The jury and judge gave his family a lot of money, and took away the MD's license.

He didn't "kill" him, he killed him. No quote marks.

[Critters2]

86. So, the medical profession stripped him of his license, as was appropriate.

Whereas, the chiropractic "profession" allowed this man to keep practicing:

"One patient proven to have been killed by neck manipulation was Kristi A. Bedenbaugh, a medical office administrator and former beauty queen from Little Mountain, South Carolina. In 1993, Kristi consulted a chiropractor seeking relief from the pain of sinus headaches. During her second visit, she suffered a stroke immediately after the chiropractor manipulated her neck. She died three days later, one day before her 25th birthday. The autopsy revealed that the manipulation had split the inside walls of both of her vertebral arteries, causing the walls to balloon and block the blood supply to the lower part of her brain. Additional studies concluded that blood clots had formed on the days the manipulation took place. In 1997, the State Board of Chiropractic Examiners of South Carolina issued a consent order in which the chiropractor agreed to pay a $1,000 fine and to acquire 12 hours of continuing education credits in the areas of neurological disorders and emergency response." from quackwatch.com

[uppityperson]

88. Anyone doing "possible" malpractice should be carefully scrutinized.

Depending on why and what and how often, take away their license. That case sounds like a state board, vs legal court like this MD was. And it was proven this MD had hurt others also, this was the final straw for him. I would need to see more about that case, whomever the chiropractor was, history and so forth. Do you have more info as I am interested. All I can find is on quackwatch and another similar site and I would like another source also as I don't trust even them.

Further, from that link:

In 1992, researchers at the Stanford Stroke Center asked 486 California members of the American Academy of Neurology how many patients they had seen during the previous two years who had suffered a stroke within 24 hours of neck manipulation by a chiropractor. The survey was sponsored by the American Heart Association. One hundred seventy-seven neurologists reported treating 55 such patients, all of whom were between the ages of 21 and 60. One patient had died, and 48 were left with permanent neurologic deficits such as slurred speech, inability to arrange words properly, and vertigo. The usual cause of the strokes was thought to be tearing of the vertebral artery walls <3>. A recent review of 116 articles published between 1925 and 1997 found 177 cases of neck injury associated with neck manipulation, at least 60% of which was done by chiropractors <4>.

They don't know the cause of the strokes, but "thought to be". 60% done by chiropractors, that leaves 40% done by whom? 1 death.


One of the things I am watchful of is ethics. I have cruised quackwatch a couple times. As a nurse and massage therapist, I am always watchful for bogus claims.

I sat down 1 night and tried to figure out how to make more money (playing around, lets pretend stuff). A product and a new "modality" would work as I could sell the product, and do continuing ed classes for the "modality". (note aside, I really really really hate jargon. It is technique, not modality and besides I do all sorts of things with the purpose being helping the person feel and function better)(second note aside, there is no 1 right cure for everyone every time all the time). So I came up with a specific set of movements, along with specific music on a CD that needed to be played into speakers retrofit into the underside of massage tables. (3rd note aside, this was just fun and games, playing at being unethical to make my fortune and no way was it serious as I can't do that). Come to find out that there are people doing this. "learn this modality! only $585 for the whole course! Buy the Speakers tm and CD and rake in the bucks!". This sort of stuff really pisses me off since it is difficult enough to do what I do without having to deal with that sort of bs.

Most professions, businesses have their own jargon which is meant to confuse and make the speaker sound "oh so wise". pshaw. There is no 1 right treatment for everyone, everytime, at all. A BIG rule is, or should be: Don't act beyond your training, scope of practice, and competence.

[uppityperson]

108. They have done double-blind studies, though more need to be done also.

Link to one that I posted elsewhere in this topic is
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=141&topic_id=30459&mesg_id=30579

[Lorentz]

80. Chiropractors are scam-artists.

I went to some for back problems. They asked me to describe the problem, and no matter what I said, the solution was the same: "Let's crack your back!"

[Oreegone]

89. So Sad to see

So many people who know nothing about Chiropractic treatments, licensing training etc. speak so ignorantly about a science that they don't understand. There are so many people that go to Chiropractors we would be hearing about situations like the one noted above on a daily basis. If it is such a "scam" why do all professional sports teams have them on staff?

Ignorance is not bliss, it is just ignorance.

[uppityperson]

90. Yup. Judge not a whole group by the unscruplous actions of a few.

What it was in the past may not be what it is now. It has evolved, and professionals are trying to regulate, licensate (?) and professionalize it more.

You forgot "outspoken", but then you are being polite. Thank you for your post.

[medeak]

91. race horses have chiropractors!

my good dear friend chiropractor is treating horses...and better therapy than the steroids vets give....

[yurbud]

93. ok, I'm through with these guys. My mom talked me into going a couple of times and..

while it made my back feel better, I wondered how safe those neck moves are.

Now I know.

[NV Whino]

104. There are several types of adjusting techniques

My chiropractor is not a whack 'em and crack 'em guy. He uses a little device called an activator that very gently and precisely bumps joints back into alignment.

If you feel chiropractic adjustment helped you but you don't like the whack 'em and crack 'em approach, look for someone who uses an activator.

[LibertyLover]

99. This almost happened to a younger cousin of mine

About 15 years ago, one of my younger cousins, roughly 23 at the time had a stroke induced by a chiropractor. She had been having some back pain after the birth of her first child and went to a chiropractor to see if she could get some relief. The Friday before Labor Day weekend she went to her 2nd appointment. About an hour or so later, the office called her home. Her mom, who was visiting and helping her take care of the new baby, answered and was told that she had better come down to the office immediately. So she popped the baby in the car and drove to the chiropractor's office. She found her daughter stumbling around the parking lot, disoriented and slurring. No dummy, she immediately called the ambulance and got Karen to the hospital. Karen had had a blood clot break off and cause a stroke. She was in the hospital for a while and in rehabilitation for years. To this day she walks with a slight limp. Fortunately there were few mental deficits as a result - she does not remember about a week, from just before the stroke to roughly a week after. At the malpractice trial it was determined that the clot had developed as a result of the manipulations the chiropractor did on her first visit. The manipulations at her second visit caused the clot to dislodge and that caused the stroke. Karen had initially been told that she should not have any more children, but that ban was lifted a few years ago and she had a second healthy child. She has not been back to a chiropractor.

The thing that really got the family upset was that after Karen had been released from the hospital, her mom went to the chiropractor's office to get some answers - as in why they had let someone in obvious physical distress leave their office without calling for professional assistance. She was told that they would not detain a patient who wanted to leave, even one who was patently not able to make a decision for herself and that they had done more than they were supposed to by calling her home. Karen's mom asked what would have happened if she had not been there since her husband worked and was not home at the time. All she got as an answer was a shrug. It came out at the trial that the chiropractor had ordered his office staff that even if a patient asked them to call an ambulance or 911, they were not to do so, but to refer the patient to the public phone out on the sidewalk. I believe that the chiropractor in question was fined, but did not loose his license. Karen won her malpractice suit against the chiropractor. The settlement was not a lot - but it will help to educate the 2 kids.

[Q3JR4]

111. The only thing I have to say about "alternative medicines"

is that the only medicines that are "alternative" are those that can't be proven scientifically. Every medicine that has some sound basis is no longer of the "alternative" variety.

The fact that, even after 113 years^*, there is still no scientific basis for chiropractic medicine other than the placebo effect for pain relief is to me very damning.

Q3JR4.

[honey.pie]

113. a fake chiropractor is no chiropractor at all

The article says "fake chiropractor". Obviously, this guy is NOT A CHIROPRACTOR. And also obvious is the fact that it is dangerous for anybody other than a "real" trained licensed chiropractor to give adjustments. I know people who let their friends "pop" them even though their friends do not know anything about chiropractic nor any other kind of bodywork or medicine. They all brag that they don't need no stinkin' chiropractor; that they can "adjust" each other with no training whatsoever. They are cRaZy...and in grave danger too.

I think this is simply anti-chiropractic propaganda. The media is full of it.

peace&love

[Heddi]

116. If Chiropractors are so useful, educated, skilled, and trained

and if their services are so beneficial, why have I NEVER seen one employed by a hospital. Why do I see physical therapists and occupational therapists and the occasional massage therapist come in and actually be referred by money-grubbing MD's and RN's, but I've never ever heard of a consult to a chiropractor.

I would think that hospitals would be jumping at the chance to hire such skilled, educated, useful professionals. I'm sure that a chiropractor would cost less than an orthopedist, right? If their services are so useful, valuable, and proven with regards to results, cure, and relief of symptoms, why do I only see them advertised during Judge Judy, right before the ad for Mesothelioma Class Action Suits and the Lawyer who can get you money if you've been injured!!11!!??

[BuddhaGirl]

117. yeah, all chiropractors only advertise during Judge Judy

:eyes: pretty broad brush there.