Ohio - too many provisional ballot are being tossed, please take action.

[Eric J in MN]

The AP writes, "No registration is main reason
provisional ballots thrown out" in Ohio.

http://www.zanesvilletimesrecorder.com/news/stories/20041116/localnews/1599347.html

However, HAVA requires all eligible voters to have
their provisional ballots counted, not only registered voters.

From:
http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/voting/hava/HAVA_2002.html
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
HAVA states in section 302 (PROVISIONAL VOTING AND
VOTING INFORMATION REQUIREMENTS.)

(3) An election official at the polling place shall transmit the ballot cast by the individual or the voter information contained in the written affirmation executed by the individual
under paragraph (2) to an appropriate State or local election official for prompt verification under paragraph (4).

4) If the appropriate State or local election official to whom the ballot or voter information is transmitted under paragraph (3) determines that the individual is eligible under state law to vote, the individual's provisional ballot shall be
counted as a vote in that election in accordance with State law.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

'Eligible' is not synonymous with 'registered.' To cast the provisional ballot, a person has to state he or she is eligible AND registered.

For the vote to count, however, people only need be eligible.

The idea is that anyone who in good faith believes he or she is registered should be able to cast a
provisional ballot, and if it turns out that person isn't on the list because of a clerical error or whatever, the vote SHOULD count.

An interpretation of HAVA in which a citizen is
allowed to cast a provisional ballot after finding his or her name isn't on the registration list, only to have that provisional ballot discarded two weeks later for the same reason, makes no sense.

Please contact anyone who can help with this (Ohio ACLU, Ohio Democratic Party, Kerry campaign)

Ohio ACLU:
http://www.acluohio.org /
Max Wohl Civil Liberties Center
4506 Chester Avenue
Cleveland, OH 44103
[phone] | Fax: [phone]
[e-mail]

Ohio Democratic Party
http://www.ohiodems.org
271 E. State St. Columbus, Ohio 43215
614-221-6563 (voice)
614-221-0721 (fax)
[e-mail]
-----------------------------------
David Cobb Campaign, Green Party
http://www.votecobb.org/contact

Volunteer Coordinator - Holly Hart
319-337-7341 (Iowa)
[e-mail]

Campaign Manager - Lynne Serpe
Cell: 646-202-0825 (New York)
[e-mail]

Media Coordinator - Blair Bobier
Office: 541-929-5755 (Oregon)
[e-mail]

Bookkeeper - Kaitlin Sopoci-Belknap
[e-mail]
California
-------------------------

Also contact:

Ohio Attorney General Jim Petro
State Office Tower 30 E. Broad Street 17th Floor
Columbus, OH 43215-3428
[phone]
[e-mail]

and:

Ohio Civil Rights Commission
1111 East Broad Street 3rd Floor
Columbus, Ohio 43205
[phone]
1-888-278-7101 (Toll Free)

[bones_7672]

1. Sorry, but the law is you have to be registered to be eligible. n/t

[MrUnderhill]

2. "Eligible" is a subset of "registered"

You can't be "eligible" to vote without being registered.

[Eric J in MN]

3. Then why does HAVA talk about

REGISTERED and ELIGIBLE to cast the provisional ballot, and then only ELIGIBLE to have it counted?

My answer is that the person should believe in good faith he's registered, but if a clerk made a mistake and never processed his registration form, his vote should still count.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
SEC. 302. PROVISIONAL VOTING AND VOTING INFORMATION REQUIREMENTS.

(a) Provisional Voting Requirements.--If an individual declares that
such individual is a registered voter in the jurisdiction in which the
individual desires to vote and that the individual is eligible to vote
in an election for Federal office, but the name of the individual does
not appear on the official list of eligible voters for the polling place
or an election official asserts that the individual is not eligible to
vote, such individual shall be permitted to cast a provisional ballot as
follows:
(1) An election official at the
polling place shall notify the individual that the individual
may cast a provisional ballot in that election.
(2) The individual shall be permitted to cast a provisional
ballot at that polling place upon the execution of a written
affirmation by the individual before an election official at the
polling place stating that the individual is--
(A) a registered voter in the jurisdiction in which
the individual desires to vote; and
(B) eligible to vote in that election.
(3) An election official at the polling place shall transmit
the ballot cast by the individual or the voter information
contained in the written affirmation executed by the individual
under paragraph (2) to an appropriate State or local election
official for prompt verification under paragraph (4).
(4) If the appropriate State or local election official to
whom the ballot or voter information is transmitted under
paragraph (3) determines that the individual is eligible under
State law to vote, the individual's provisional ballot shall be
counted as a vote in that election in accordance with State law.
-----------------------------------------------------------------




What is the point of telling someone whose name isn't on a flawed list to cast a provisional ballot if his ballot will just be tossed based on the same list two weeks later?

[bones_7672]

4. Many times in life there is a big difference between

what we WANT to be true and what IS true. Not registered equals not eligible.

[Eric J in MN]

7. The purpose of provisional ballots is to fix registration mistakes

in which an eligible voter isn't listed on the registration rolls.

If a man has a simliar name to someone who died, and the Election Board removes his name from the rolls by mistake, then he has to cast a provisional ballot, what good does the provisional ballot do if it's tossed 2 weeks later since he's not registered?

[MrUnderhill]

8. There's a difference between what's on the precinct roll

and what the county records may reflect.

In the case of someone who was removed because of a "death". The county records would reflect that... while the precinct would have no idea.

Recent registrations often don't make it on to the list either (I've worked in a Virginia precinct, and it happens all the time.... we had a telephone tree for resolving these issues).

Simply put... there are several ways a county can make an error that messes up that precinct list. It doesn't mean the person isn't eligible to vote.


To boil it down: No matter how hard you try... there is NO circumstance in which a non-registered individual can be "eligible" to vote. You assumption that ANYONE who "thinks" they are registered (and is an american citizen over 18) is able to vote under HAVA is simply wrong.

[Eric J in MN]

9. Why does HAVA use the words "elibible" and "registered"

in describing the requirement to cast the vote, but only the word "eligible" in describing whose vote counts?

[MrUnderhill]

10. Follow along now... ok?

Because it's possible to be ON the registered voter list and STILL be inelligible to vote. If (for instance) your state forbids felons the franchise, but fails to properly remove one from the precinct list... he still isn't eligible to vote.

Or even more common. If you move out of state and fail to notify the board of elections... you may still be registered in the old precinct... but you aren't eligible to vote.

It's a "square and rectangle" thing (as my wife says). It's possible to be a rectangle without being a square... but one cannot be a square without also being a rectangle.

[Eric J in MN]

11. Then HAVA could use "registered" and "eligible"

both for the qualifications for casting the vote and the qualifications for counting it.

[MrUnderhill]

13. Goodness, you're persistent.

"Could"? Sure. But they didn't.

But let's make this as simple as possible. The law DOES say that in order to count, the county "determines that the individual is eligible under State law to vote".

Ohio state law requires you to be registered in order to vote. ORC 3511.02

Problem solved?

[MrUnderhill]

5. HAVA uses "eligible" a number of different ways.

But it's clear that the state determines who is eligible to vote. "Eligible under state law" in EVERY state means that you are registered (though a couple allow you to register on election day).

Your theory is appealing... but how could you possibly keep illegal votes out? Most states don't require ID... what keeps me from voting for Bush 15 times in 15 different precincts? (assuming I could wait in line that many times). I use different names and they have no way of denying my vote? We want to find a way to get a vote to those people who may have been conned by a fraudulent "registration" drive... but not at the cost of unstoppable voter fraud.

In your definition of "eligible", how can the state determine that eligibility? They don't know your citizenship status, or even really your age.

Notice paragraph "a" anticipates people who ARE registered but are ineligible to vote ( someone yells "hey, didn't you just move to California? What are you doing voting here?")

[Eric J in MN]

6. The concept of 'eligible' includes that the person didn't already

vote in that race.

They can check names to make sure each person only votes once.

They can require id, though states vary on their id rules.

[Pastor of Deaniacs]

15. But

You should still be counted! Is yuor viewpoint worth less because you did not register? Are you NOT a citizen on election day?

[bones_7672]

16. Then register, damit, that's the law!

[Eric J in MN]

12. kick

kick

[mosin]

14. Kicking it...

doesn't change the law, as explained so well by MrUnderhill.