Ohio Fraud Question

[Eric J in MN]

Suppose a Republican in Ohio had wanted to vote twice on Nov. 2, 2004:

under his own name in the morning, and under the name of registered-voter-who=didn't-vote in the evening.

Would he have been able to get a list of registered-voters who didn't vote?

[ooglymoogly]

1. now there is a good what if that needs to be investigated.

sounds plausible

[goddess40]

2. If they had poll watchers

that were willing to give out that information.

In WI we had poll watchers, I don't know if that's the right term, that were republicans that sat looking over the real poll workers shoulder. They would occasionally make phone calls, we don't know if it was to remind someone to come and vote or what the purpose of the calls were.

[Eric J in MN]

4. That is the kind of situation I'm talking about.

Letting people see the sign-in book besides poll workers and people signing-in.

[whistle]

3. If the instructions came down from KKKarl Rove were to allow...

....that, it was in all likelihood done.

[PATRICK]

5. This is one question

that centers on the central strategy of examining the voter books and seeing if the the signatures are there and match, but more likely whether there are fewer sign-ins than voters. This is an auditable moment. Unless we root it all out this year we may not get a second chance.

[Eric J in MN]

8. I'm talking about people faking signatures.

In Ohio, the signature-on-file is printed near where the voter signs.

[bones_7672]

6. He would need ...

to know which precinct to vote in, and, in Ohio, his signature would need to match the one on file.

Interesting side note, on election day I was working as a poll inspector in Middleburg Hts., and one of the poll workers came up to me with a question, a voter had come on in and said the signature on file was not his. He had proper ID. I told them to let him vote, and told the voter to call the BOE after the election had quieted down.

[Eric J in MN]

7. Could anyone in Ohio see the registration-list,

besides people signing-in and the poll workers?

With regard to faking a signauture, Ohioans in a previous thread told me the signature-on-file is printed next to where the voter signs, which would make it easy to approximate.

[bones_7672]

9. sorry, I don't know. n/t

[seriousstan]

17. Anyone can see the list., and don't underestimate the difficulty

of forging a signature with only a parsing glance, under pressure. All the while wondering if the poll workers personally know the person you are impersonating.

[Eric J in MN]

25. Do they also show the signatures on the list on the wall? NT

NT

[seriousstan]

26. No, it is merely a list with a check mark beside the name of those who

have already voted.

[Eric J in MN]

28. That's good NT

NT

[LisaL]

23. That's exactly right. The signature is in the book

next to where voter signs.
They do not ask for an ID.

[seriousstan]

10. I work the polls in Columbus Ohio, all you have to do is look at the list

on the wall. An entire list of all registered voters, called voter registration listings, for any given precinct is posted on the wall at 6:30. 2 identical copies are updated will the names of people as they vote during the day. One is then posted at 11 AM and the last one at 4 PM (I think). Anyone has access to these listings. They have names and addresses and whether the person has voted yet that day.

[Eric J in MN]

13. Are the lists on the wall updated manually?

Or is it recorded electronically after a voter signs in, so they can print a new list and put it on the wall?

Is there a legitimate reason to put a list on the wall of registered voters and whether they voted?

[seriousstan]

15. Manually updated as people vote.

They are there so "get out the vote" people can see who has and hasn't voted.

[Eric J in MN]

20. Were people usually asked for id in that precinct, or

just have to give their names and sign?

[LisaL]

24. No IDs.

Just give your name and sign.

[seriousstan]

27. Give your name AND address.

[O.M.B.inOhio]

11. theory: coordinated with Palms, accounts for late * surge

This idea was put forward on a DU poard (the 2nd letter of alphapet is proken on my keypoard, hence the supstitution)

Repups seen with Palm Pilots (illegally) accessing a dapase. They find who has not voted and send in a supstitute voter. Accounts for late-night poost in * votes.

How would you prove this? Whistlelower? Witnesses of vanloads of Repups, at multiple locations? SIGNATURES that don't match registered voter, and 'voter' on rolls is asked whether they voted? Tough to unearth the truth.

[s-cubed]

12. Knowing who didn't vote

I was a poll watcher in Fairfax County, VA. My job was to keep track of which Democrats had voted, so the ones who didn't could be called and urged to come out. Any poll watcher could do the same, provided they had a list of votes in their party.

[Eric J in MN]

14. It wouldn't require Palm Pilots. Just an ordinary phone call

to someone willing to vote under someone else's name, after viewing a list on the wall of regsitered voters who haven't voted, would let Republicans vote twice.

[seriousstan]

16. Would let ANYONE vote twice

The real tricky part is duplicating the signature. Not to mention, most of us poll workers have worked the same precinct for years and we know MANY voters by name and face.

[Eric J in MN]

21. Isn't the signature shown to the voter near where

he or she needs to sign?

(I agree that judges knowing the person listed would prevent someone from pretending to be that person. However, even if you've worked there in four previous elections, if there a thousand voters each time, how many names would you remember?)

[seriousstan]

30. In my precinct there are 1500 registered and this is the first time

more than 400 of them voted, almost 800. We know most of them by sight.

[Philostopher]

18. Sure.

Our precinct posts a list of all the registered voters in the precinct, right on the door as you walked in.

Now, you'd have to have known somebody didn't vote to try to cheat that way, but I suppose it's not beyond the pale if you were desperate enough to win an election.

I don't know if it's standard practice for all Ohio precincts, mind you, but I know our precinct does this -- and they also list how you were registered in the last general election.

So conceivably, the person could do this, if s/he were voting in a precinct where they weren't as circumspect as ours. We were asked to have I.D. ready to present, though they didn't check everybody's (older folks weren't asked, though we -- in our early 40s -- and others in line who were younger were).

[Eric J in MN]

19. Do they mark off who voted? NT

NT

[Philostopher]

22. In my precinct, I've never known them to mark off who voted

on the public list, the one that's posted on the door. Whether they do it other places, I don't know -- I always just assumed that it was posted there for the purpose of letting people know they were in the right precinct before they got in line to wait (the longest wait I've ever had at my precinct was this year, and it was just over 40 minutes).

Our poll workers have a book, they find your name and have you sign next to the signature (as noted before, there's a column with a preprinted sig on the same page). I know I remembered hearing the Republicans had lists of registered voters that they called -- whether they had the information on whether they voted or not, I don't know. I was under the impression they just had the lists and were calling them individually, at least around here, asking them if they'd voted and pressuring them if they hadn't. On edit -- I believe the Dems had such lists, too.

In my precinct, all the precinct workers are older, and they're the same five people who've been doing this since we moved into the area. They're savvy and usually get things done fairly quickly. Is it possible someone might take advantage of them? Frankly, no. Is it possible someone might take advantage of a younger or newer, less experienced poll worker at another precinct? I think we all probably know the answer to that.

It's also possible that 'activists' could get on as poll workers and take advantage of the fact that they had access to the polling records of who voted. In general, though, those books aren't readily available to anybody but the poll workers in my precinct.

I ain't saying, by a long shot, that there were no shenanigans, since as I said, the people who handle the precinct where I vote are old hands at it, and I know (from overhearing them muttering at each other during the primaries) some of them are Dems and some are Republicans, so there's an extra guarantee there wouldn't be any BS going on at my precinct. Is it possible the Republicans have loaded the precinct poll workers in other parts of Ohio? Yeah, I think that's also possible. There are plenty of them who have no shame, it's entirely possible that they may have placed 'ringers' in some precincts who could do things like make lists of voters who hadn't voted and hand them off to someone who could call only the ones who hadn't voted, or figure out ways to cheat.

In general, it's a pretty secure system, but after all the stuff Ken Blackwell pulled at the state level this year, I can't imagine they couldn't have cheated it somehow. They were so determined to make sure Bush got Ohio that they committed civil rights violations -- of course they'd be willing to cheat at the precinct level, if they thought they could get by with it.

[seriousstan]

29. You are mistaken

One of the jobs in every precinct is to mark in the voter registration listing book who has voted. This is not an "optional" job.

[Philostopher]

31. I didn't say they didn't mark it in their book.

I said they didn't mark it on the list of precinct voters on the door. Our precinct posts a list of registered voters on the door leading into the voting room. The poll workers have their own list, and they mark off that you've voted -- but as far as I know, they don't post this record of who's voted anywhere for public consumption.

On edit -- I think Eric J is trying to determine whether possible and how difficult it would have been for non poll employees/workers to get hold of lists of people who had already voted. In my precinct, there is no publicly available list containing this information, it only goes in the poll record and that's not (and presumably not supposed to be) public information.

[seriousstan]

32. That is not how it is done in Ohio...3 copies of registered voters

,called voter registration listings, are posted on the wall. One at the opening of the polls, a second at 11 AM and the final at 4PM. These are updated as the people vote. The books are color coded, pink, green and white. The hold all registered voters names and address...for that precinct.

[Philostopher]

33. Oh, do they mark them as they vote ...

and update the public lists during the day? I'm not a poll worker, and I only vote once on any given election day, so I usually only see the list in the mornings. I've never seen it marked, and I can't really see any reason they'd post a public list of people who'd already voted -- since that would enable the very kind of shenanigans Eric J. is asking about -- but that certainly doesn't mean they don't do it.

I've never seen it, and I've been voting in Ohio since 1982 -- but, as I say, I've never been to a polling place more than once on election day, and I generally vote in the morning.

If they post a public record of who's voted, that would certainly enable the kind of stuff Eric's asking about, wouldn't it?

[chicchick]

34. Tip from a journalist

Here's what I'd want to do if I were covering this story in Ohio, or even as a citizen in my own hometown (in, sorry to rub it in, a very blue state).

Generically speaking, voter registrations and, I believe in most states, also voter poll records are public records. That means they are accessible not just to poll workers, or to journalists, but to any member of the public.

Any citizen can go down and request to look at the voter book to see who voted and if signatures match. The voter registration list will show you if the voter is declared as D or F or indy.

If any signature in the poll book seems suspect from the original voter signature, write the name down and call or go visit the voter and ask if they went to the poll to vote. Ask if anyone prodded them with a call late in the day and ask what the caller said.

I find most people think these things can only be done with certain privilege, but that's not so. The power to audit the poll is in each and every one of YOUR hands.

In most states, if you're given any trouble from a public worker, you can fill out a public records request form and the law promises reasonable access at reasonable time and place.

Because it's probably not common for citizens to go look at these records, and because there's obvious contention, I'd be prepared to go in well dressed, with a nice smile and in the mood to schmooze casually and congenially.

[mackdaddy]

35. County Party HQ does pick up the Who Voted list

I volunteered here in Hocking County at the Dem Party HQ. One of the jobs on election day was to go to all of the precincts and get copies of the who voted list, and they did call those who had not voted and offered them rides and the general kick in the pants to get the out.

It would be conceivable for someone to vote as someone else who had not show up. Some of the complaints taken here in Ohio were about people who went to vote and were turned away because they had supposedly already signed in. Also, there were investigations into people who had supposedly voted in two places. Could be someone vote "for them" in their old precincts since there have been few purges. see www.freepress.org

Part of the conspiracy story the guy who ran for congress in So Florida Jeff Fisher was pushing was the padding the voting roles with known felons and others who would not vote, but could be "voted for". see http://www.walkingwithfisher.com/

At least worth looking into. Would be interesting if a handwriting expert could scan some of the books looking for questionable Signatures.