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dsewell Donating Member (437 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-04 10:03 AM
Original message
Canadian attitudes toward potential large-scale immigration from U.S.?
I was interested to see a discussion of the demographic problem in the article linked by the "Is Canada Disappearing?" thread:

http://www.walrusmagazine.com/article.pl?sid=04/10/13/172239#future

If Bush manages to win re-election, the running joke about "it's time to move to Canada" is no longer going to be a joke for a lot of us Americans. I've got a former co-worker, permanent resident from the U.K., hanging fire on whether to apply for citizenship in the U.S., and I doubt he will if Bush stays in office. Someone else I know took a vacation to Toronto, his first trip to Canada, because as a gay man he's pondering his options if things here get any more reactionary.

I don't think liberal Americans are going to emigrate in droves, but I am quite sure that a Bush re-election would mean a "brain drain" from the U.S. that ought to benefit Canada. Already we're hearing that the numbers of overseas students applying to U.S. graduate programs are down because of post-9/11 hassles with visas. I can't imagine that U.S. scientists, researchers, and academics of all types (except maybe ones whose paycheck is tied to the military) wouldn't look much more seriously at job prospects in Canada than before.

So what's the feeling about this whole issue among Canadians? Are you going to put up "Canada is full, go away!" signs (like Oregonians did when they got fed up with Californians migrating north), or is the prospect of inheriting a lot of skilled, educated people who feel that Canada reflects their values better than their country of birth something to look forward to?
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German-Lefty Donating Member (568 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-04 10:14 AM
Response to Original message
1. We won't all be able to get into Canada
The US isn't 100% easy to get into from Canada. I remember this girl who's mom had a Visa not being able to get her daughter in. Usually such crappy immigration systems are mutual. I've heard it's hard to get into Canada, if you can't prove you have the money.

So yeah they'll take everyone with a brain, and let the rest stay with Bush. Some people already see the US as a no go zone. I heard you were finger printing everyone coming in like they were criminals. Things like that will benefit Canada, Europe, and even India who all want to retain their brains.
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Mother Jones Donating Member (427 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-04 10:58 AM
Response to Original message
2. Not such a far-fetched notion anymore...

As a Canadian, (with a U.S employer) I am personally seeing colleagues in the U.S applying for Canadian positions and hoping it will lead to an invite here.

I am all for Americans coming to Canada. I fully support it and encourage it, including letters to the PM urging them to allow our bros and sis's to stay here.

I do, however, feel it is SO sad. I know that I would hate to leave the country I love, b/c of a right-wing agenda.

Fortunately, when President Kerry takes office, this issue will become moot!
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-04 02:09 PM
Response to Original message
3. well ...
I'm probably rare here in that I actually remember the Vietnam-era movement north. I had a number of good friends (and more), in later years, who had taken that route. Two were co-workers of mine in the govt, for example.

(On the other hand, a current colleague of mine is the son of a Vietnam-era draft resister, now a professional in Montreal. The son has dual citizenship, and wanted to go to school in the US, so he registered for the US draft.)

Here's the problem I have, and the problem we discovered back then:

"educated people who feel that Canada reflects their values better than their country of birth"

Most USAmericans really don't know what "Canadian values" are, and many would be quite mistaken if they thought that they mirrored their own, "liberal" USAmerican values.

They see things like same-sex marriage and non-punitive attitudes toward drug use, and they like what they see -- but they just don't understand what those phenomena are actually based on.

"Canadian values" aren't just the personal-liberty values that many USAmericans think have been abandoned in their own country. Canadians value equality and social justice very highly -- and the modern manifestations of these concepts are truly foreign to most people who have lived in the US all their lives.

Thirty-five years ago, we found those skilled, educated migrants from the south doing things like taking over the faculties of some of our university departments, just by sheer force of numbers, and saw that the critical mass of what was being taught in psychology courses (behaviourism, at that time), for instance, did *not* reflect "Canadian values".

Of course it's hard to document any of these long-ago situations and debates from sources on the internet, but I managed to find this overview:

http://www.sfu.ca/~wwwpsyb/issues/1995/winter/ocoffey.htm

A Review of the Canadian Journal of Behavioural Science from 1965 to 1995
...
1.3 CJBS in 1967

Canada's Centennial year, 1967, saw the country dominated by its groping for maturity and nationhood. The Globe and Mail pessimistically notes that Canada was in "a crisis of unity". All the major news stories of the year had a single theme the nation, what it was, and what it should be. Appropriately the AGM of the Canadian Psychological Association was held in the nation's capital. It brought to Ottawa the academics, practitioners and students of "Canadian" psychology. But as we review the year in all these factions, we see some of the stresses affecting the nation being played out in this field. Both French-English, and North South dichotomies appear to have significant roles.

The keynote address at the CPA's 28th AGM, entitled "A Social Psychology of Bilingualism", was given by Prof. W. Lambert of McGill University. This itself illustrated the psycho- social significance of having two official languages in one country. At the business meeting of the CPA it was decided that all publications of the association would be in both French and English.

From the beginning, through the past, and to the present, we see the American influence on Canadian psychology. Behaviourism appears to dominate the work of Canadian psychologists. One half of the articles published in the CPA journal fell under the behavioural rubric, and seven out of nine parallel sessions at the AGM were dedicated to Behaviourism. Also, over 70% of the articles submitted for publication in the Canadian Journal of Psychology were reviewed by psychologists from the USA. An analysis of new appointments at three Canadian universities revealed the heavy reliance on the American origin of our professors. Of 20 faculty appointments, only three psychologists received their Ph.D. from a Canadian university.

With the 100 year celebration of our country,1967 appears to have been a pivotal time for looking back, with the intention of seeing parts of our future against this context. In the CJP of this year, four article addressed the history of psychology in Canada, however there was not one single article that spoke toward the future or offered a vision for Canadian psychology.

1.4 CJBS in 1968

By 1968 there were some new areas of interest, and a few familiar ones as well, such as the teaching of undergrads in psychology, childhood learning difficulties, and a few more articles were published in the CJP on the history of psychology in Canada.

Socially, then the world was in the throes of another flux. The Vietnam War had escalated almost to its peak, grabbing the bulk of media attention. This had some social effects like anti-war rallies, and draft dodging, which brought many Americans to Canada, a phenomenon especially felt by our universities.

The articles of the year in the .CJP had revealed new concerns, like alcoholism and cigarette addiction, with both behavioural and social learning points of view. The behaviourist dogma still had the loudest bark in the journal. There was, however, articles on artistic ability, creativity and identity. There was also a special talk at the AGM on the relationship between schizophrenia an the 'hippie' class of society.
...
"Artistic ability, creativity and identity" -- these *are* "Canadian" focuses of interest, today. Michael Adams, for instance, has written about this:
http://rabble.ca/in_their_own_words.shtml?x=22132
(article by Andrew Potter)

Social values are the various beliefs and preferences people have of what constitutes the good life, such as community involvement, tolerance, and religiosity. Adams has spent the past ten years tracking changes in dozens of such values on both sides of the border, and the results are interesting.

Both countries are trending away from traditional values, are becoming less deferential to authority and more individualistic.

But while Canadians are moving toward values associated with idealism and personal self-fulfillment (e.g. creativity, ecological concern, and cultural sampling), Americans are apparently “moving away en masse from the trends associated with civic engagement and social and ecological concern.” According to Adams, Americans are becoming more survivalist in outlook, embracing “values of nihilism, aggression, fear of others, and consumptive one-upmanship.”
The fact that emigrants from the US may overtly reject that USAmerican outlook doesn't mean that they understand or embrace the Canadian one.

The academics coming to Canada from the US 35 years ago simply didn't know that there were specifically Canadian issues of the nature described in the CJBS article, and that academics in their field were needed in Canada to bring their expertise to bear on Canadian problems from a perspective that grasped the issues and the stakes involved.

As that article notes in the 1969 summary:

Psychology has now been recognized by the Science Council as a science and a profession with great potential for the social and economical development of our country. The discipline is being viewed as an important national resource to be exploited by government and industry.
and goes on to say about the period from 1975 to 1979:

Between 1975 and 1979 the Canadian political climate was governed by issues of cultural identity and autonomy. English speaking whites feared the encroaching cultural and domination of Americans. Francophones resented the perceived attempts of those same Anglophones to acculturate Quebecois identity. Meanwhile, native Canadians were engaged in a tremendous effort to shake off centuries of cultural oppression at the hands of both English and French speaking whites. These large scale, intrinsically Canadian socio-cultural concerns infiltrated down into the CJBS. Applied psychologists working in this era of social activism (in a branch of the profession that encourage the practical application of scientific principles to real world issues) threw open a window in the Ivory tower and began taking notes on society.

It is really very important that academic workers in fields like this -- which include history, sociology, political science, economics and the other "human sciences", and of course literature -- be familiar with the specific needs of the society they live in, and of the forces at work in that society, and of course the values of the society.

Now, computer programmers may not have the same kind of influence on the socio-political discourse in a society that social scientists have, but eventually, they will be voting. And they will be living in a society that they may not really understand.

I worked closely with immigrants, and organizations advocating for immigrants, for many years -- not USAmericans, of course, since they tend not to need much assistance with integration. I was often disappointed with the attitude I observed on the part of some immigrants, like the ones who came here to make the proverbial better lives for themselves and then became abusive, exploitive landlords or employers. They were contemptuous of the very rules that made Canada the place they chose to live in.

The society that gave them the opportunities they were seeking is the same society that has chosen to place limits on their "freedom" -- that prohibited them from raising rents above the legal limit or terminating tenancies without legal grounds, that required that they comply with the zoning bylaws that apply to small businesses, and so on.

Many immigrants will find that they don't have quite the "freedom" they would like in Canada, because there are quite a lot of rules like those. Rules that are made to advance equality and social justice, at the expense, where necessary, of individual interests, or personal "freedom".

And I worry about the influence that a large influx of people who aren't acculturated to this social philosophy, and its practical manifestations, could have. Canada probably is *not* what the US would be like if the average US "liberal" had his/her druthers, and I can only hope that any who do come here make a real effort to understand and accept this.


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dsewell Donating Member (437 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-04 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Points taken
That was a long and cogent reply. And of course you're right that for most Americans, "Canada" is more an idea than a body of knowledge, and you precisely don't want a huge influx of population what that characteristic. I saw that sort of thing, in a small way, living in Tucson in the '90s at a time when a lot of Californians were moving to Arizona for financial reasons. "Californication" is the term that evolved in California's neighbor states to describe what tended to happen, architecturally and socially, when a lot of new arrivals behaved as if their new home should look and feel like suburban Los Angeles or whatever.

For that matter, I know it's also not healthy for Canada to have a southern neighbor whose values are increasingly divergent, especially when that neighbor is dangerous when in a foul mood. So I guess we just need to gird up our loins and help you, and ourselves, out by bringing some sanity back to this country... hopefully, after a Kerry victory next month, we'll be heading in that direction.

(FWIW, I went through a phase in the late '70s when I decided that Québec was the most interesting place in North America. I'll bet I'm the only DU'er from the U.S. who has read Les nègres blancs d'Amérique in the original French.)
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-22-04 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. ha!
"I'll bet I'm the only DU'er from the U.S. who has read Les nègres blancs d'Amérique in the original French."

I'd bet a fair bit that you're the only DUer, period, who has read it in the original. I read it in English, myself, manymany moons ago. And I'd probably bet that we're the only ones who have read it at all.

You might find this paper interesting, about the "double-minority status of black American and French-Canadian women". (About 25 years ago, I did a sociology paper about the "double deviance" of women criminals, so it caught my eye.)
http://www.fawi.net/ezine/vol3no4/FAAAFemmes.html


"For that matter, I know it's also not healthy for Canada to have a southern neighbor whose values are increasingly divergent ..."

We've been shaking our heads in my household about how we even manage to stay as far left up here as we do, i.e. a Liberal govt that is still a tad to the left of US Democrats, even if not by Paul Martin's choice. Look at Australia, for example. Somehow, we're managing to buck the trend.

The Rest of Canada does need Quebec if we're to stay on this course. If only Quebec would get it through its head that it needs us just as much.

Here's a translation of something a good buddy of mine wrote in a Montreal newspaper a while ago:

Party leader Gilles Duceppe, who was asked about the specific scenario of a minority Conservative government propped up by the Bloc, says he is prepared to collaborate with anyone who promises to promote Quebec's interests.

The alliance that is being put together will lead to a wave of laws and policies at the federal level that are just as reactionary and repressive as the blueprint that George W. Bush's Republicans have prepared for the United States. Because we have to remember that this right-wing party advocates free access to firearms, but wants to make free access to abortion illegal; opposes international multilateralism and supported the illegal invasion of Iraq, which it would have involved Canada in; and opposes a whole set of measures to improve the lives of the most disadvantaged members of our society but promises to cut income taxes and take other measures to make the lives of its well-heeled supporters even more comfortable.

So why are we seeing this alliance between Bloquistes and Conservatives, a party that, when it was called the Canadian Alliance, never showed anything but contempt for Quebec? For one reason only: the avowed desire of the Conservative Party to tear down the entire "socialist" federal edifice is in the Bloc's interests in constitutional terms. To hell with social democracy. This is plain opportunism. And like all opportunists, they will suffer the boomerang effect of their own efforts. Once the Canadian health care system is dismantled, to comply with the privatization wishes of Alberta and British Columbia, how long do you think that Quebec will be able to stand up to the pressure from American corporations eager to get a bite of the Quebec health care system, particularly in the current economic and political climate? Supporting the Conservatives will bear fruit in terms of sovereignty in the short term -- because the Conservatives also want to balkanize the federation to promote their own reactionary policies, and because they have no base here and so Quebec is regarded by them as the obstacle on their road to power -- but in the long term this alliance is plainly a pact with the devil. The paradox here is one that the Bloc and the Conservatives are certainly not going to appreciate, but in the present Canadian and North American context, it seems that the only path to social democracy lies in a strong Canadian federation that is capable of resisting pressure from the U.S., from the larger world, and from within, against any initiative that is the least bit "social democratic".
Getting side-tracked a bit ... but discourse about Quebec in English Canada can be just as depressing and simplistic to someone who believes in self-determination as "sovereignist" discourse in Quebec has come to be to social democrats.

The self-determination of peoples is a social democrat / democratic socialist value. That doesn't mean that everyone who comes along and uses the discourse of self-determination to promote his/her own ends has to be embraced by social democrats. And it has been quite obvious for quite some time that the PQ leadership, if not the BQ leadership, is all about the self-interest of the new indigenous élite, and not about the interests of the people of Quebec; that take-over seems to happen in just about every national liberation struggle that has ever been. But *that* doesn't mean that the self-determination aspirations of that people are illegitimate.

The bi-national pact that formed Canada is fundamental to our existence, today, in a whole host of ways. My wish would be that all of us in the ROC would get over our weariness with the subject, since few of us have ever had enough exposure to, or put enough thought into, the real substance of it to have any claim to be weary of it anyhow.

Of course, I'd also wish that genuine social democrats in Quebec would get their heads out of their bums and deal with the real world we're in, rather than dwelling on the insults of history and dreaming in technicolour about a glorious sovereignty that simply won't exist in this world.

So my congrats on the interest you've taken in it all!

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gula Donating Member (619 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-22-04 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. When I first saw that title in the book store I thought it was about
aboriginals and that he simply meant that they were whiter than blacks. "Les nègres blancs d'Amérique" Of course I did move to Québec after the quite revolution.



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hermetic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-22-04 08:13 AM
Response to Original message
5. When Americans discover
they would be paying 17% sales tax on everything but food up there, it will scare the bejeezus out of most of 'em. (Thank you Iverglas for that very thoughtful discourse.)
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Mother Jones Donating Member (427 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-22-04 09:13 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. I actually disagree with that...
Here in Ont. it's 15%, although you must remember that this is all relative, and people who work here have salaries that accommodate a higher tax structure.

Your point (and the one before it) is still valid for those who perhaps, are not aware of our taxes, or our beliefs in equality, but it doesn't mean we are necessarily 'poorer' for it.

We didn't spend 10 yrs in a row at the #1 spot on the U.N's "Human Development Report" list for nothing. (slipped to #4 now)
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hermetic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-22-04 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Shhhhh, ...don't misread me
I didn't say I had a problem with that, just that others would, which is good in my opinion because it means less competition for me. I have been working diligently for some time now to make the change and it isn't easy by any means.
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Mother Jones Donating Member (427 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-04 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #7
15. Ahhh I see ...
Best of luck to you!

I would have offerred up a portion of our 72 rolling, treed acres to make room for you, if I thought you were in danger of 4 more years of the boy king....Luckily President Kerry will help restore/ensure all your treasured rights are protected.

;-)
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hermetic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-29-04 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #15
21. Hey, thanks.
You guys are so nice. Cheers!
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HEyHEY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-22-04 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. 17? Where the fuck is it 17?
Edited on Fri Oct-22-04 10:05 AM by HEyHEY
14 per cent here in B.C.

And if you want healthcare and stuff- there is a price.

At least tell them winnings from gambling including lottery aren't taxable
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hermetic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-22-04 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. Actually it was 15%
where I was. Musta been a typo, or freudian slip. Just read that article at Walrusmagazine.com and it does make a good argument for increased immigration.
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Canadian_moderate Donating Member (599 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-22-04 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. Denmark's VAT is 25%
It could be worse.

I think the Netherlands (my country of birth) has a 18.5% VAT built into all prices. I would prefer it if Ontario's prices had 15% built in rather than added after the fact. Just a personal preference.

Most receipts in the Netherlands will list the VAT (BTW in NL) amount separately below the price so people still realize how much they pay in taxes.
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Cascadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #5
25. I think I can live with it.
At least the taxes will actually got into programs and things people use.


John
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democracy eh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-22-04 01:06 PM
Response to Original message
11. articles on the Brain Drain
Reverse brain drain: It's threatening the U.S. economy: Until recently, if Americans heard the words "brain drain," they knew clearly what that meant: Bright, talented scientists, engineers and other techies from all over the world were migrating to the United States. They were drawn here by the world's best universities, the most dynamic companies, the freest economic and social environment and the highest standard of living.

Today, while many of these conditions still apply, Americans are starting to hear a new term: "reverse brain drain." What it suggests is the United States is pursuing government and private-sector policies that, over the long run, could lead to a significant shift in the world's balance of brainpower

http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/editorials/2004-02-23-economy-edit_x.htm

and
Creative Class war: How the GOPs anti-elitism could ruin
America's economy
http://www.creativeclass.org/creativewar.shtml
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PatGund Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-04 03:45 PM
Response to Original message
14. It's something I'm giving consideration to.
I'm in a long distance relationship with one of my s/o's, (I'm in San Diego, she's in Vancouver), and I'm finding myself getting more and more relucant to return to the US at the end of my visit.

Mainly because, as much as I love the US, more and more it doesn't feel like home anymore. :-(
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Mother Jones Donating Member (427 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-04 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Will you feel the same way when Kerry wins?
Is it only the last 4 years that make you feel that way?

Truth be told, it's difficult for us Canadians to tear ourselves away from Vancouver too. :D
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PatGund Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-28-04 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Actually, yes
If Kerry wins, I'd still be tempted to move north. Not as strongly as if Bush gets reselected, but yes, I'd be tempted.

It's sad for someone who loves my country as much as I do to say this, but it doesn't feel like home anymore. The last time I was in Vancouver, it felt like home - and not just because I was with someone I loved as well.

The last four years didn't help, no.

And yeah, it's easy to go into "beauty overload" in Vancouver. Even if the street layout looks like a tub of bait on occasion..... :-)
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Mother Jones Donating Member (427 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-28-04 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. I totally sympathize with you...
A few months ago, and perhaps because the polls showed such a strong Bush lead, I was happy to hear so many from the U.S wanted to come here. But after I put myself in those shoes, I thought, I wouldn't want to leave the country I love b/c of the mismanagement of the govt.


It must be an excruciating decision! As much as I love the U.S (always have, always will) I couldn't see myself living there for any length of time.
I have a friend who relocated to Michigan due to business, and her experiences have made me feel so much more appreciative! (particularly when it comes to telephony providers and health care)

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camero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-04 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. I have to go back soon too
I'm dreading it myself. It's alot less angry here. :(
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Lefty48197 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-28-04 07:33 PM
Response to Original message
20. I'll make Michigan part of Canada, if the unthinkable happens
that way, I won't have to move.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-29-04 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. I thought it was ...

I mean, we've got the governor's mansion already, right?

And my parents who shopped there for many years sure seemed to think it was. ;)

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Lefty48197 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-29-04 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. I was in Sault Ste. Marie, MI last spring
and our restaurant bill gave the price in Canadian and American dollars.
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auntAgonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-31-04 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. I moved to MI after I met and married
my husband, (met online). Missing Ontario a LOT ... thankful we have the option to move there if we have to. ( I want to ).
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