EU referendum question revealed

[T_i_B]

Yay or nay folks? :shrug:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;sessionid=X1FMOR0QEH111QFIQMFSM5OAVCBQ0JVC?xml=/news/2005/01/26/ureferendum.xml&sSheet=/portal/2005/01/26/ixportaltop.html&secureRefresh=true&_requestid=81503

The Government has revealed what the question will be in the referendum on the EU constitution.

The country is to be asked:
"Should the United Kingdom approve the treaty establishing a constitution for the European Union?''

If MPs approve it, the poll is expected to be held early next year.

[katinmn]

1. I have always said nej to EU

because I was influenced by Swedish friends.

Loss of independent decision-making. Centralized control by a few of the more wealthier countries. Loss of unique culture.

How do you feel about it?

[aneerkoinos]

2. Jag säger jo

But I'm Finn, not Swede. I think Swedish euro-scepticism is mostly originated in the Swedish superiority-syndrome, their national tragedy. ;)


>>Loss of independent decision-making.<<

Lost anyway because of globalization. Only through EU there's any chance that democratic processes can affect global issues, nation states are close to irrelevant in that regard.


>>Centralized control by a few of the more wealthier countries.<<

EU is what we make of it. If small countries don't stand together and demand a better balance of power, that may happen. In reality, EU is too complex and has quite good balance of power between various institutions (way better than US).


>>Loss of unique culture.<<

No way. It's the opposite, cultures thrive in dialogue with others, without loosing their essence. United in our difference!

[non sociopath skin]

3. So what's the alternative,k?

The right certainly knows, although they tend to discuss it among themselves rather than go public with it. They speak of the "Anglosphere," an "Oceania" dominated by the US and, curiously enough, including Israel (tough on turbanned ruffians)but not Canada (too many wussy French-speaking, Inuit-loving liberals).

At the moment, of course, the idea of becoming an offshore tax haven of Jesusland- Shrubaria would go down with the Great British Electorate like a vat of mucus, so the Party of the Night are keeping it under wraps until after their Victory Party ... whenever that is...

So maybe we should just go it alone, a kind of European Vanatu?

BTW, I think that other members of the EU would be a little miffed at the idea that they've lost their unique cultures .... I have no problem in distinguishing Koln from Paris when I'm thereabouts ...

The Skin

[aneerkoinos]

4. I would have hoped

That UK voters would've been (will be?) told the real choise:

To Constitute EU or not to EU.

UK is very likely to be the only member against accepting the constitution, and may find out that others don't let that stop them and suddenly there's a new constitutional Union from which UK is left outside, thus Scotland brakes free and joins the New Union, and little ingerlanders start wondering, "what have we done..."

[T_i_B]

21. I wouldn't bet on it

"UK is very likely to be the only member against accepting the constitution"

Well since Ireland, Spain, France, Holland, Belgium, Luxembourg and Denamrk are all holding referendums, and there is quite a bit of Euro-scepticism in some of these countries I suspect that it might not be just us voting no. If you want to know why just try to read through the draft constitution in one go.

http://europa.eu.int/constitution/futurum/constitution/index_en.htm

Personally I think it would be best if a EU-wide referendum were to be held on the subject. It would do good to the EU regardless of the result.

[sweetheart]

5. approving having a constitution, not necessarily the current draft

I have always been for having an EU constitution. It makes clear
the terms of an otherwise poorly defined collaboration. There already
IS a constitution of sorts if you consider the body of law that in
french is like the "stack of papers" = all things ever adjudicated by
the EU... and now with expansion, it is either time to call an end to
the EU or to formally define its certain federal powers, and the
absolute rights retained by its member states.

There is no fooling that a concept of shared sovereignty is involved,
such as a common market, common defense and common standards on human
rights. This has created the great prosperity and liberalism that
is the EU today. That the bush-tories attack it, and question its
capability is only a sign that it is working... as they are nothing but
little foul worms those right wing trashers.

A clear document is better than an unclear one... and certainly the
existing arrangement is unclear... bound to create greater stress as
the union grows. As well, some institutions, like the rotating
presidency make little sense as the union grows... needing reform.
All of this is healthy and i would hope that member nations realize
their great good fortune to be at ground zero in the EU, the most
innovative constitutional evolution of humankind's development so
far in liberal democracy.

As for the euro, i'm not sure. Overly federalizing economics is one
of the failures in america... a failure to support regional innovation
in support of pure economies of scale. The euro, cheats some nations
of the ability to use monetary policy to develop their economies.
That said, the stability of it cannot be ignored, and i'd probably
vote for it were i asked. The institutions that should be reformed
in the EU, are rather the patent system and other economic institutions
of law and commerce that business is less hobbled by the complexity
of the legal tangle. Social democracy to date, is not a free standing
project and has been supported by american defense spending, and
american financial institutions, euroclear and half the city of london..

To presume just because amercia has gone bonkers that europe has
reached a perfect model is a dangerous mistake. Gordon brown is
right to press for more economic reforms... as the stagnation of
not getting this right will kill the EU project, more than any
constitution will... it is critical that the EU economy grow well,
that they get immigration right for falling populations in a coming
generation, and that the place does not balkanize in to a bunch of
backward in-looking hamlets of inbreeding.

[aneerkoinos]

8. Charming

Here in Europe we love our moderate conservatives and right wing social democrats! They are so cudly! :)

>>>Social democracy to date, is not a free standing
project and has been supported by american defense spending, and
american financial institutions, euroclear and half the city of london..<<<

I wouldn't say those vermins support anything, but perhaps it can be said that yes, social democrats have been many ways allied to those vermins.

>>>To presume just because amercia has gone bonkers that europe has
reached a perfect model is a dangerous mistake. <<<

Agreed.

>>>Gordon brown is right to press for more economic reforms... as the stagnation of not getting this right will kill the EU project, more than any constitution will...<<<


Alas, Gordon bloody Brown is pressing for more nealiberalism and the usual mumbo-jumbo of group thinking economics. What Europe actually needs is more practical common sense green socialism and less ideological dehumanizing economics.

>>>it is critical that the EU economy grow well,<<<

Strongly disagree. With looming energy crisis, global warming, demographic turnaround etc., it is critical that EU starts to find ways to stay functional equalitarian society even without presumption of eternal economic growth. It's a game of survival, nothing less, and to survive the society needs to adjust to no growth or negative growth.


>>>backward in-looking hamlets of inbreeding<<<

Hey watch it! Even if Finland is in-looking hamlet of inbreeding, doesn't necessarily mean we're backward! ;)


You're from Scotland? So, what if UK drops out of EU, you wanna drop Ingerland and stay in EU?

[sweetheart]

10. mumbo jumbo economics

I agree that gordon brown is calling for more neoliberalism than i myself
feel comfortable with, but i presume that his calls will result in a
more moderate reform that suits both concerns. As it stands, not enough
sense of reform is instigated, and indeed, the EU is a more expensive
and less efficient place to do business than the far east and the US.
I've run businesses in both the US and the UK, and the US is far more
efficient. Now, i have to make value judgements (not businness ones)
to use UK suppliers, when a pure-profit judgement would immediately
prefer a china/taiwan source.

You must accept the fact on the ground in the city of london where
neoliberalism rules and is the de-facto reality. TO expect teh whole
lot to change without a massive capital exodus is unrealistic, so a
"3rd way" must be found (pardon the abuse of the expression).

I had a frank discussion with a watered up finnish banker in helsinki,
and he confessed to me, that he felt finnish culture to be stifling
and repressive, as everyone knows everyone, and though the living
standards are high, he wanted to go work elsewhere where he could be
not judged based on people who've judged his whole life... i understood
his complaint, as so many people i know have leeft the town of their
birth to get away to a place where they did not feel stifled.
"wat_tyler (formerly screaming_lord_byron) left scotland, for similar
concerns for canada... There is something to be said for a mixing of
cultures... that people might move around in life, and the synergy
of this benefits all cultures by its cosmopolitan richness.

Scotland will never be allowed to drop england. The Royals own too
much land up here, and they will never let it go...ever. Scotland
is owed, and they might give it a devolved parliament with weak
powers over education and minor services, but there will never be
any serious devolution until the monarchy is rooted out.

Are you in greece? In my MBA programme were several chaps from greece
who were in "family" businesses.

Perhaps i should qualify "growth", as it is indeed relevant to grow
and evolve, just not by the measures of current short term cutthroat
neoliberal measures. We need to endorse and support different measures
so that we can keep a social democratic model, but work with other
economies like the us and asia that are strongly embedded in a
neoliberal model.

[aneerkoinos]

12. Third Way

I'm sure especially for a banker Finnish culture can be stifling and repressive, it is, every culture is in it's own peculiar ways. I'm Finn but I'be lived in Greece for a number of years, and I have my likes and dislikes in both cultures. What is interesting I've allways felt more at home at the edges of Europe, Finland, Greece, Ireland, than in the hubbub of the Center.

I'm all for Third Way, based on general target for general well-being of people in relative harmony with their surroundings according to pluralistic value system, and thus for holistic, creative and innovative solutions for social problems and planning, progressively ahead rather than left or right, which is why I find most agreeable the Green approach, which is relatively free from old ideological divisions and open to both collective-bureaucratic and market-based solutions, which ever works best in each particular context.

We may have different tastes and analyses of various situations, but from your post it seems we share the same overall approach. Days of quantitative growth are soon over, but that doesn't mean that qualitative "growth" has to end. What I worry about is that if and when quantitative growth turnes negative, neoliberal models will be totally unable to cope with the situation and keep society cohesive and inclusive enough to survive. Europe has still a chance, US is Wiley the Coyote running in the air, soon about to look down...

[muriel_volestrangler]

6. Like sweetheart, I tend towards voting 'yes'

for roughly the same reasons - consolidation of agreements, adopting a more practical system for a larger EU. But I'm not 100% certain yet.

Here are some arguments against the constitution from the Centre for a Social Europe: Why the Left Should Reject the Constitution (20 page pdf)

and a rebuttal from Britain in Europe Tackling the Myths (5 page pdf)

[katinmn]

7. I'll comment to all posts here.

I prefer to think of the Swedes as idealists rather than superior snobs. I thought the French thought themselves as more superior. :)

Seriously, it's those that hold the reigns of power that worry me and in the EU as in the US, capitalists increasingly control the agenda. I think an EU constitution will institutionalize power and weaken individual countries' decision-making ability on many issues.

In the US, federal law often goes against the wishes of people living in certain states. For example, states like California, Minnesota and Massachusetts might not want to support the current level of military funding and prefer to augment healthcare and education, but we have to suck up whatever those in the White House choose.

We are becoming aware (too late) of hidden agendas here. Now we have the battle of our lives to try to get the neocons/theocons out of power.

One thing I like about the EU is that it is a counterbalance to the U.S.

[aneerkoinos]

9. Sweden

I live next door to Sweden. French are just arrogant latino snobs, Swedes actually believe they are superior, they just pretend to be modest. But when the subject comes up, they are truly shocked if they find out others don't share the same view, and spend hours and hours and hours trying to convince you very politely, making absolutely sure there is no disagreement left about the superiority of Swedes... ;)

>>>Seriously, it's those that hold the reigns of power that worry me and in the EU as in the US, capitalists increasingly control the agenda. I think an EU constitution will institutionalize power and weaken individual countries' decision-making ability on many issues.<<<

Sure, that is called sharing sovereignity. But there really is no worry that EU will ever come federation to the same extent as US, our history is very different.

[katinmn]

11. sharing sovereignty -- that's an oxymoron!

Sovereignty:
Complete independence and self-government.
A territory existing as an independent state.
Supremacy of authority or rule as exercised by a sovereign or sovereign state.
Royal rank, authority, or power.

I don't believe you can "share" sovereignty.

[sweetheart]

13. hardly, its quite sensible

The US states share sovereignty for defense purposes, and for economic
trade purposes and immigration purposes as well. Just teh sharing
has gone too far, but because of the civil war and an overly powerful
supreme court that has rationalized the differences between the states
too much, people are cynical, like yourself.

Had the states remained sovereign, and only defeense, economics and trade
joined the union, the US would be much healthier. The concern is
finding a balance on the scale of pure-federalism and total-localism.
A country the size of Denmark, Norway or Finland can't honestly expect
to defend itself from a super-block like russia/china or the US, so
it joins with others to form a considerable unit that its needs are
covered. Rhode island would not get very far as a separate sovereign
state, nor would luxemburg in our modern age. There is a very valid
argument for joining of interests for some shared sovereignty. Just
because it has failed on the western side of the atlantic, does not
mean the principal is invalid, just it was a poor implementation and
the balance has fallen way way too far towards the federal.

[aneerkoinos]

14. Nation state myopia

In areas where member states are not fully sovereign, EU is (e.g. EU's borders).

Anyways, full sovereignity is an illusion, allways has been and even more so in globalized economy. Dictionary knowledge belongs to dictionaries, sharing meaning and understanding is like sharing sovereignity, dropping barriers instead of raising them.

[non sociopath skin]

15. Hey, hey, brothers and sisters ...

... can we argue this rationally and leave the racism and stereotyping to the conservatives? This is supposed to be a progressive site!!

The Skin

[aneerkoinos]

17. Nah

I'm a Euro, so I'm allowed to stereotype my fellow Euro's all I want. But if a Yankee forennur tries to stereotype my fellow Euro's, I will kick his ass... :)

[non sociopath skin]

18. Well, that makes one of us.

Holocaust Memorial Week always makes me think twice about stereotyping, even in jest.

The Skin

[aneerkoinos]

19. Oh sorry

Didn't notice you were from UK.

But seriously, it is important to jest with stereotypes and about each other, so we don't start taking stereotypes and ourselves seriously.

[non sociopath skin]

20. I think we'll agree to differ on that one, friend.

The Skin

[Monkie]

16. whos bankers do you trust and human rights record do you wish to share?

the world is changing rapidly
i have my own doubts about some details of the european dream.
but england has a simple choice,
join europe and the euro and its slim hope of a brighter future, or
join the empire as it goes spiraling down on its dark destructive path

[LeftishBrit]

22. I was seriously thinking of voting No - until November 3rd changed that

I'm worried about the bureaucracy. I don't think that being part of a federal Europe will cause the end of Britain as we know it, but I am concerned that we'll end up with even more managerialism and target-itis than we get from Blair himself.

That being said, I do NOT want us to be Bush's '51st state', and that concern makes all my other concerns look trivial in comparison. Therefore I will vote Yes on the referendum.

[non sociopath skin]

23. I share your concerns about EU bureaucracy ...

... but, like you, I'll be voting - faux de mieux - for the Constitution.

The Skin

[ikri]

24. Another Yes voter here

I skimmed through the constitution a few months ago, lots of boring stuff in there.

There's also a hell of a lot of stuff in there that enshrines worker rights, etc. Beyond the usual crap that's written about loss of sovereignty (could a European government really mess up the country more than the Tories did in the 80's?) I can't see any real arguments against the constitution.

[T_i_B]

25. I'd say that National Soverignity is a VERY real argument.

The issue of the ability of nation states to govern themselves is the main concern of Euro-Sceptics, who are not at all keen on having laws imposed on them by a bureaucracy in Brussels that is much less democratic, open and accountable then our own governments.

And I for one tend not to be convinced by many of the arguments about giving the EU more power. I'll attempt to read the constitution before making up my own mind, but given how long it is that is one task I am not looking forward too. And I for one cannot see how it is possible to get people to vote yes to a document too big to fit through most people's letterboxes.

[aneerkoinos]

26. Actually

EU's political institutions ("bureaucracy in Brussels") are much more democratic, open and accountable than UK governement.

[Anarcho-Socialist]

27. The EU has its problems and pit-falls, but I'm voting Yes

If or when those problems (bureacracy etc) are ironed out, the E.U. could be a very good thing. An integrated bloc of social democracies living in peace and stability will encourage growth and prosperity. I know that the sentiment I express is idealistic and might not definitely happen, but if Britain ultimately rejects the constitution - it then means we reject the EU (which is what the xeno-right wing wants).

If we reject Europe and the E.U. then where does Britain turn? If we attach ourselves to a U.S.A. whose power and economic performance is faultering then this country has no future.

[Briar]

28. A yea

from me as well.

Interesting article here, by the way:

Europe vs. America
By Tony Judt
The New York Review of Books

http://www.truthout.org/docs_05/012305L.shtml

Here's how it starts:

America's cultural peculiarities (as seen from Europe) are well documented: the nation's marked religiosity, its selective prurience,<1> its affection for guns and prisons (the EU has 87 prisoners per 100,000 people; America has 685), and its embrace of the death penalty. As T.R. Reid puts it in The United States of Europe, "Yes, Americans put up huge billboards reading 'Love Thy Neighbor,' but they murder and rape their neighbors at rates that would shock any European nation." But it is the curiosities of America's economy, and its social costs, that are now attracting attention.

Americans work much more than Europeans: according to the OECD a typical employed American put in 1,877 hours in 2000, compared to 1,562 for his or her French counterpart. One American in three works more than fifty hours a week. Americans take fewer paid holidays than Europeans. Whereas Swedes get more than thirty paid days off work per year and even the Brits get an average of twenty-three, Americans can hope for something between four and ten, depending on where they live. Unemployment in the US is lower than in many European countries (though since out-of-work Americans soon lose their rights to unemployment benefits and are taken off the registers, these statistics may be misleading). America, it seems, is better than Europe at creating jobs. So more American adults are at work and they work much more than Europeans. What do they get for their efforts?

Not much, unless they are well-off. The US is an excellent place to be rich. Back in 1980 the average American chief executive earned forty times the average manufacturing employee. For the top tier of American CEOs, the ratio is now 475:1 and would be vastly greater if assets, not income, were taken into account. By way of comparison, the ratio in Britain is 24:1, in France 15:1, in Sweden 13:1.<2> A privileged minority has access to the best medical treatment in the world. But 45 million Americans have no health insurance at all (of the world's developed countries only the US and South Africa offer no universal medical coverage). According to the World Health Organization the United States is number one in health spending per capita - and thirty-seventh in the quality of its service.

As a consequence, Americans live shorter lives than West Europeans. Their children are more likely to die in infancy: the US ranks twenty-sixth among industrial nations in infant mortality, with a rate double that of Sweden, higher than Slovenia's, and only just ahead of Lithuania's - and this despite spending 15 percent of US gross domestic product on "health care" (much of it siphoned off in the administrative costs of for-profit private networks). Sweden, by contrast, devotes just 8 percent of its GDP to health. The picture in education is very similar. In the aggregate the United States spends much more on education than the nations of Western Europe; and it has by far the best research universities in the world. Yet a recent study suggests that for every dollar the US spends on education it gets worse results than any other industrial nation. American children consistently under-perform their European peers in both literacy and numeracy.

[non sociopath skin]

29. Thank you, Briar. An interesting article ...

... which should be required reading for British conservatives like Bliar and Howard who see the US as the only true archetype of a modern state.

The Skin

[Briar]

30. Yes, agreed

My fear is that the US and its allies will destroy that alternative archetype as a threat to their global dominance.

[McKenzie]

31. I'm voting yes and have always intended doing so

There is an undertow to the rhetoric about national sovereignty, one that has its roots in the delusion that we are still a world power. Shades of empire and all that, albeit sotto voce.

Yes, there are issues and yes, the document is rather large. Nevertheless, I feel that we need to wholeheartedly embrace European citizenship. True, we could join the euro and stay out of the constitution but that would send out all the wrong signals. As regards the constitution it's odd that we do not have a written one. I want a proper, written constitution; not the mish mash that we currently have.

Some posters have commented on the bureaucracy issue. That's a management issue and one that is capable of resolution.

Moreover, I bet the neocons in the US would welcome anything that impeded progress towards Europe consolidating into a powerful trading block with unified approaches to every sphere of life, be they social, economic or political. I'm voting yes because I want a fully integrated Europe.

It's no accident that the poll was announced in the Torygraph imho.

[T_i_B]

32. Actually, it was in all the papers

I just happened to use the Telegraph as the source for this thread, partly because the Torygraph's article was actually considerably shorter than the articles about it in the Grauniad and the Independent.

[McKenzie]

33. oops, my apologies to the Torygraph. Thnx for the info' n/t