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non sociopath skin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 05:34 PM
Original message
Somebody please help me get my head around this.
Edited on Mon Jul-11-05 05:39 PM by non sociopath skin
Two facts about me which should be obvious from anyone who's read any of my 1000+ posts:

(1) As a Labour Party activist since the 70s, I hate, loathe and despise what Blair has done to my party, particularly in the realms of foreign policy and "security".

(2) As one half of a Transatlantic Marriage and a lover of things American for as long as I can remember, I can differentiate the "real" America from the Bushco abomination.

But

Am I being over-sensitive about the fact that on DU as well as on right-wing sites, I seem to be being overwhelmed by American posters telling me what's what about the London Bombings?

For example:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1617452&mesg_id=1617452

Whether or not I am, it worries and saddens me.

The Skin
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neuvocat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 05:40 PM
Response to Original message
1. You know how us yanks are.
We know everything that happens everywhere in the world, regardless of whether we're there or not.

:evilgrin:

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DaveT Donating Member (447 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 05:42 PM
Response to Original message
2. Thanks for reminding us.
I've posted regularly on a much smaller board and the Brits there have expressed the same thought. It's in our national culture to think that we are IT. Most of us don't mean it -- especially the lefties among us.

It's good to smack us in the face with it when we start projecting our wisdom into your backyard.
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getmeouttahere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 05:45 PM
Response to Original message
3. IMO, Americans are much less likely than the rest of the world...
to ever know the truth about this or anything BushCo is involved with...just keep giving us the facts as you see them, and I for one value your opinions as well.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 06:01 PM
Response to Original message
4. Not over-sensitive
See my post #100 in that thread.

I think the atmosphere in DU is getting more and more excited - after the kick in the guts of Bush's re-election, people are starting to sense that Bush is vulnerable after all, with things like the Downing Street Memos and the Rove/Plame investigation. Add to that an understandable disgust with Iraq, and some DUers will quickly shout about anything the think might be another tool against Bush and/or Blair. Examination of the facts (which is actually what showed how dishonest Bush and Balir were about going into Iraq) can wait for later, it seems.

'Beam Me Up Scottie' has a theory (in the sceptics group, I think) that the expulsion of some conspiracy theorists from the DailyKos website has upped the temperature here - either they're the same people who need another outlet, or the ones here are trying to be as visible as possible so they can't be dismissed as a tiny minority. One moderator in particular now seems to be a target for personal comments.
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Anarcho-Socialist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 04:06 AM
Response to Reply #4
9. It's an interesting theory
DU seems to be a lot more "nutty" than at this point last year. The trauma of the November 2004 election seemed to set things going for the wilder conspiracy theorists. The strong suspicions about the result of the election last year set an atmosphere that made people open to conspiracy theories on other topics of any stripe.
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T_i_B Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #9
37. DU is a lot more nutty
I mean goodness, compare the current reaction to the reaction of DU at the time of 9/11. There's a LOT of difference there.
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mr blur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 07:07 PM
Response to Original message
5. Not being over-sensitive
It is World news, and people here on DU do care, a lot. But I'm taken aback by the amount of ludicrous theorising about conspiracies, cover-ups and notions that Blair probably organised the whole thing just to keep himself in power.

I have a similar background to you re. The Labour Party and Blair but apparently we know much less than some Americans about what's going on in London.

It worries and saddens me, too.
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SweetLeftFoot Donating Member (905 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 01:05 AM
Response to Original message
6. Even though
I am Aussie, I live in Britain and like to think myself reasonably well informed.

There was one Yank the other day holding forth about what it all means who finished his piece by saying something along the lines of "I see Blair won relection. You must have the same companies making your voting machines as we do."
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Anarcho-Socialist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 03:36 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. There were loads of those types of comments on UK election night
back in May. When the exit poll was released projecting a Labour majority of 66, people started posting "stolen election" and "Diebold". Most backed-down after I pointed out our paper ballot system, but it was hard to get through to those who were convinced that the Lib Dems were going win an overall majority (no disrespect to Lib Dems, but we know how realistic that was going to be).
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Mr Creosote Donating Member (640 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #7
23. Don't think you tried hard enough
I just found a remark that Kennedy will be next PM. Hey ho.And nader will be the next President. Isn't it odd - we're an island - yet the Americans are even more insular than us - even the "good guys".
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Anarcho-Socialist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. Yeah I saw that poster too
:D
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SweetLeftFoot Donating Member (905 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #7
24. Great freeper
The other day saying how the bombing would be a wake up call for Blair and his Liberal government. Really.

What do they teach them in their American "schools"?
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Anarcho-Socialist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 03:55 AM
Response to Original message
8. I just went over to that thread
It's a wreck. I couldn't resist posting a reply at the bottom.

It's sad that there are people who see a conspiracy in every shadow and anything that disproves the conspiracy theory is considered planted evidence, or a plot of somekind.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 04:37 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. A modification of Godwin's Law
(you know, the probability of someone mentioning Nazis approaches 1 as an internet discussion lengthens) especially for DU:

The probability of someone mentioning Bilderburg approaches 1 as a DU thread lengthens.

See post #121 in that thread.
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Anarcho-Socialist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 04:50 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. Very true
The nutters are having a go at me in that thread now. I like the fact that the poster at #121 is providing links to 'that blog you've never heard of' as undeniable proof. Pretty funny.

Here are low-downs on the latest betting:
13/1 Death of Dr. Kelly linked to London bombing
15/1 the mention of "Mossad involvement"
20/1 Rudy Gulianni personally planted the bombs
25/1 American troops ordered to stay away from London because the CIA has planted mini-nukes in a MIHOP plot
33/1 Deaths of Princess Di/Dodi Fayed linked to the London bombing
50/1 Cherie Blair used to be a CIA hitwoman
75/1 British DUers arguing common sense in that thread are alledged MI6 moles
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 06:20 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. And now I'm accused of spreading Fox News disinformation
developing from this highly suspect post (why the fuck does it mention Mossad, eh? I'm getting fucking pissed off, as my language is starting to show):

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1620100&mesg_id=1620355

Good luck in that thread.
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Anarcho-Socialist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 07:21 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. Holy Jeebuz
Edited on Tue Jul-12-05 07:32 AM by Anarcho-Socialist
I don't think we'll ever get through to those people. They consider us "fooled" by the conspiracy they think is afoot, a conspiracy "proven" only by tenuous links and highly-selective circumstantial evidence.

It's unfortunate that there seems to be some current of anti-semitism lurking.

EDIT: Someone tried to cite Alex Jones as a source :rofl:
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bennywhale Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 08:41 AM
Response to Reply #13
17. Its healthy to scrutinise government. And i for one often say (or yell)
i'll never believe a word any New Labour apparatchik says, however that thread is actually unnerving. I can picture them frothing at the mouth, shouting FOOOOOOLS at us all while their mummy shouts up at them to be quiet.

Conspiracies do exist but i've just read that Tony Blair was behind the bombs personally. I draw the line there i think.
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Monkey see Monkey Do Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 07:44 AM
Response to Original message
14. It just makes me sad
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Anarcho-Socialist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 07:50 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. It was a good post, thanks n/t
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Monkey see Monkey Do Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. I wonder how many people
will read the entire post -- at least I can't be accused of anti tinfoil hattery!
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fedsron2us Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 09:04 AM
Response to Original message
18.  I suspect it is just hiuman nature for people to speculate
about events such as the London bombing. Even the security agencies investigating the attack have to examine all possible scenarios. As long as the ideas are checked back to the evidence it is not necessarily a negative process. What I hate is the facts being altered or distorted to support a particular political agenda. However, before we slag off the US posters on DU it is as well to remember that the mainstream media, the UK government and one, George W. Bush, have not been slow to jump on the band wagon to use the attacks to support their pet ideas. For example, elements of the British press have been quick off the mark to finger UK Muslims as the probable culprits. This will probably soon get extended to asylum seekers and other immigrants. Meanwhile, the British government have dusted off and trotted out their ideas for snooping on all electronic communications. Bush has shamelessly used the events in London to support a more aggressive US foreign policy in the Middle East.

Finally, for those who think that governments always have clean hands in such matters I would suggest sitting down and reading a good history of the GunPowder Plot of 1605 such as 'Faith & Treason' by Antonia Fraser. There is more than a little evidence to suggest that a genuine plan by Catholic religious fanatics to blow up James I was extensively manipulated by the king's chief adviser, Robert Cecil, for his own political purposes.

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Taxloss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 09:55 AM
Response to Original message
19. It's so sad, and disappointing.
But inevitable I suppose.

Let's be thankful the conspiracy fearists are overwhelmingly outnumbered by good, decent, level-headed DUers.
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Guy_Montag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 11:33 AM
Response to Original message
20. It's all happening again, just as the Police are getting on top of things
too many links to mention, any thread about the London bombings in LBN & GD.
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Anarcho-Socialist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 02:12 PM
Response to Original message
21. Skinner has intervened in General Discussion
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non sociopath skin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Excellent.
Perhaps the fact that the police seem to be about to come up with credible theories will take the wind out of the sails of the political Uri Gellers.

The Skin
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Anarcho-Socialist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. Political Uri Gellers
:rofl: Nice terminology.

In one of the nutty threads I did see someone mention David Icke, I wish I could find that one.
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fedsron2us Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 06:54 PM
Response to Original message
25. Looking at this thread on LBN
Edited on Tue Jul-12-05 06:59 PM by fedsron2us
I think some people on DU are getting fed up with the contradictory reporting emanating from the BBC

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1622610

The corporation are not covering themselves with glory in their handling of this topic. They appear to be cracking under the pressure from Sky News who, in true Murdoch mode, report every rumour leaked by the police as fact. Their sub-editors need to get on top of this problem.
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non sociopath skin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 03:14 AM
Response to Reply #25
28. So do you consider headlining unsubstantiated rumour as good journalism?
I don't. Watched the whole of yesterday's events unfold on BBC News 24. A model of careful, responsible journalism.

Later, watched the noisy, tabloid ITN news non-too-subtly making sure that everyone was psyched-up and hate-happy and realised, yet again, just how much Faux News is influencing the "independent" media in this country. Murdoch has a lot to answer for.

The Skin
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fedsron2us Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 08:45 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. Of course not, but the criticisms on DU were aimed
Edited on Wed Jul-13-05 08:50 AM by fedsron2us
at the BBCs web site which they felt was making contradictory statements. I have to agree with one poster because the piece was not well written. There are still anumber of unanswered questions about this attack which I would like to see raised by the press. In particular no one has asked why the terrorists left a substantial amount of explosives behind in their car and at one of their houses. If they were suicide bombers this was bound to be found. Smuggling high grade military explosives into the UK used to be a major headache for the IRA and they were careful not to waste it. This suggests that the organisers of the attack were either unprofessional or they have so much bomb making material stashed away in the UK that they can afford to lose it. If its the latter then the government has a serious problem. It will have to explain why it has spent billions of pounds protecting us from supposed WMD in Iraq whilst it allowed large amounts of deadly ordinance to get into the country undetected.
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Guy_Montag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 09:19 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. Much as I hate to speculate, but
maybe they were expecting someone else?
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fedsron2us Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #30
31. Who the government or the terrorists ?
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Guy_Montag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 09:48 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. The terrorists.
if the rozzers are looking for someone else & there were explosives in the car, makes sense to me that someone bottled out.
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fedsron2us Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #32
33. Apparently, there was a 'substantial' amount
Edited on Wed Jul-13-05 09:54 AM by fedsron2us
of explosive in the house in Leeds. Professional terrorists would have moved that before the bombs went off because once that had happened the property would no longer be 'safe'. Yet this lot left it behind. Clearly , both the bombers and their controller must have thought it was expendable. If I was the government I would find that the most worrying fact of all because it suggests other major attacks are in the offing.
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Guy_Montag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #33
34. Cock up?
Someone was meant to pop round & collect it, but forgot.

Otherwise, maybe they planned to take more, but couldn't carry it (if they were the only ones).

Or nasty little surprises for the police.
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fedsron2us Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #34
35. Perhaps they meant it to be found
because it is bound to put the wind up the authorities and make them introduce repressive legislation which I suspect is the main aim of the people who organised the attack.
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Guy_Montag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #35
36. Are you suggesting this is the work of the govt? n/t
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fedsron2us Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. I think you have misread my post.
Edited on Wed Jul-13-05 08:23 PM by fedsron2us
Why would the government want to 'put the wind up the authorities'. It would be like trying to intimidate yourself.

What I am trying to say is that one of the aims of the Islamic radicals who follow Osama Bin Laden etc is to drive a wedge between Muslims who live in the west and the rest of the population. Suicide bomb attacks which force governments to introduce controls that appear to target the Muslim population would be classic way of achieving that aim. Such measures might end up radicalising the whole Muslim population and supplying the militants with more recruits than they already possess. Leaving excess explosives behind might be a message to Blair's government along the lines of - 'Look, we have got so much gear in your country we can afford to waste it'. Much of the evidence from these attacks suggests a massive intelligence failure. It seem that the authorities did not really know who did the bombing until one of the perpetrators families reported him as missing and the car hire firm turned up in Leeds looking for their vehicle. Things look even worse in view of the fact that the French home minister, Sarkosy, seems to have suggested that the intelligence services in Britain and France did have at least some of these individuals on their lists of potential militants. This makes such a massive security failure on the eve of the G8 summit even more unforgiveable. It seems that the British government was more concerned with devoting huge amounts of resources to controlling disruptive but essentially harmless anti-globalist demonstrators in Scotland than with protecting the general public. I continue to be amazed that no one in the media has pursued this matter. Perhaps our journalist are getting just as asinine as those in the US.
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Guy_Montag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-14-05 04:13 AM
Response to Reply #39
40. Sorry, I did misunderstand
but a few points:

I agree that clamping down on Muslims & the likes of the far right beating a few to death, is not likely to reduce numbers of potential terrorists.

I wouldn't trust Sarkosy to tell me the time, he has his own agenda.

The govt. almost certainly took it's eye off the ball, at least a little, but I doubt it would have made any difference at that point. Incidently, the most dispised person in the world was in Scotland that week, they had to provide cover for him. You call the demonstrators harmless, but there were riots in Edinburgh. This was all mentioned on Five Live on the day, the Cheif of the Met went through the numbers, there was something like a quarter of the Met in Scotland that day. Would they have made any difference? I doubt it - they would probably be on leave if they hadn't been in Scotland.

In my opinion.
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fedsron2us Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-14-05 04:42 AM
Response to Reply #40
41. True there some rioters and excess Scottish policemen
Edited on Thu Jul-14-05 04:45 AM by fedsron2us
would be no use in London but the fact remains that at the time huge efforts were made to protect the G8 bigwigs the overall security threat level for the rest of the UK had just been downgraded in May. The anti-global demonstrators wanted to disrupt the summit and to get their message across not kill random members of the public. There has been a big intelligence failure here yet nobody seems to be prepared to hold Blair or his admininistration to account for this matter. It seems that just as after 9/11 people are overwhelmed by the calamity that any criticism of the government is deemed taboo.

http://www.newsobserver.com/nation_world/story/2578381p-9013175c.html
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Guy_Montag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-14-05 07:42 AM
Response to Reply #41
42. I disgree,
I would say it's difficult to hold the govt. responsible for any individual event. What we can do is hold the govt. responsible for putting us in this position, for the strategy. The tactics are decided by the local police, security services & other public services.

In the end, I have always felt this was inevitable, the police can do their best, the security services the same, but one day a group like this was always going to get through eventually, in the same way the IRA got through from time to time.

Finally, I predict (well, we're alrady seeing it) that over the coming days, weeks & months, evidence will come to light that these people were watched or picked up, or their associates were being watched or some such. Well everyone makes mistakes, even the best police officers, & they cannot follow up every last lead.
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fedsron2us Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-14-05 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #42
43. I hope your trust in the security services is not misplaced
Edited on Thu Jul-14-05 10:15 AM by fedsron2us
I suppose I should confess that a lot of my anger with the intelligence agencies over the London bombings is because it casts my mind back to the 1980's when I was an active trade unionist. Although my union was not affiliated to the Labour party and had a specific clause in its constitution that forbade any law breaking, including peaceful civil disobedience, we were still subject to a certain amount of surveillance and infiltration by the security services. Now I know there were left wing members of the union who were affiliated to Trotskyist groups with an alternative agenda but most of these people found it hard to agree with each other about who was to buy the next round of drinks let alone how the revolution was to be organised. Indeed, certain of the persons from the group Militant I suspected of being 'agent provocateurs' with an agenda to disrupt and discredit the day to day operation of the union. Later in my job I had rather more serious dealings with the fringes of the intelligence world when the government was trying to prevent large scale frauds being run in the construction industry by Irish paramilitary groups who used the monies to fund their activities. One fact I always remember about the officials involved was their fondness for booze. Indeed, one character actually boasted that a head for liquor was the most important skill required for his job. Reading David Shayler's articles on MI5 this still appears to be the case. I suppose a taste for drink was an advantage when dealing with dipsomaniac trade union officials or hanging about Irish pubs listening to the conversations of building workers. The problem is that this particular security culture would only have been of any use in preventing the London bombings if the terrorists and their controllers had taken to downing pints in their local ale house whilst discussing their next move. Since Islamic fundamentalists are likely to be teetotal this is probably not going to be the case. This makes me suspect that the British security services have not got very far in penetrating the communities where the terror attack was organised. It seems that they have plenty of general data from electronic sources etc about what is going on but very poor human intelligence. This contrasts starkly with Mossad who seem to be able to get operatives into the highest levels of many Palestinian and other Arab groups. In order to prevent a repeat of last weeks atrocity this situation has got to change. Less time needs to be spent monitoring peaceful groups who just happen to have 'inconvenient' views that the state does not like and more effort needs to go into rooting out those who wish to kill innocent members of the public. At the moment I am not confident this is going to happen.

To conclude I just want to list a quote I found on one Irish web site in response to the frequent accusation that their country is soft on terrorists

"the United Kingdom is a greater haven and sponsor of Terror than Ireland could ever be.

In July 1998, a former British MI5 officer, David Shayler, revealed that, in February 1996, British security services financed and supported a London-based Islamic terrorist group, in an attempted assassination against Libyan leader Muammar Qaddafi. The action, Shayler charged, in an interview with the British Daily Mail, was sanctioned by then-Foreign Secretary Malcolm Rifkind. The incident described by Shayler did, in fact, occur. Although Qaddafi escaped without injury, the bomb, planted along a road where the Libyan leader was travelling, killed several innocent bystanders. In an Aug. 5, 1998 interview with BBC, Shayler charged, "We paid £100,000 to carry out the murder of a foreign head of state. That is apart from the fact that the money was used to kill innocent people, because the bomb exploded at the wrong time. In fact, this is hideous funding of international terrorism." According to Shayler's BBC interview, MI6 provided the funds to an Arab agent inside Libya, with instructions to carry out the attack.

On Jan. 25, 1997, Tory Member of Parliament Nigel Waterson introduced legislation to ban foreign terrorists from operating on British soil. His "Conspiracy and Incitement Bill," according to his press release, would have for the first time banned British residents from plotting and conducting terrorist operations overseas. Waterson proposed the bill in the aftermath of a scandal over Britain providing safe haven for Saudi terrorist Mohammed al-Massari, who claimed credit for the bombing of U.S. military sites in Saudi Arabia in June 1996

On Nov. 17, 1997, the Gamaa al-Islamiya (Islamic Group) carried out a massacre of tourists in Luxor, Egypt, in which 62 people were killed. Since 1992, terrorist attacks by the Islamic Group have claimed at least 92 lives. Yet, the leaders of the organization have been provided with political asylum in Britain, and repeated efforts by the Egyptian government to have them extradited back to Egypt have met with stern rebuffs by Tory and Labour governments alike.

Shortly before the Luxor massacre, on Oct. 8, 1997, the U.S. State Department, in compliance with the Anti-Terrorism Act of 1996, released a list of 30 Foreign Terrorist Organizations (FTOs), banned from operating on U.S. soil.
Of the 30 groups named, six maintain headquarters in Britain. They are: the Islamic Group (Egypt), Al-Jihad (Egypt), Hamas (Israel, Palestinian Authority), Armed Islamic Group (Algeria, France), Kurdish Workers Party (Turkey), and the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (Sri Lanka).

http://mathaba.net/data/sis/mi6-terrorism.html

Now before you want to criticise my country for aiding terrorists,take a look at your own ''country'' Visit that website and hang your head in shame for the disgraceful deeds of your fellow countrymen before you make insulting remarks about my homeland."


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fedsron2us Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. Self delete
Edited on Wed Jul-13-05 08:21 PM by fedsron2us
Talking to myself !!!
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