The other Stockwell incident reaction thread.

[Taxloss]

This one is for latest news and reasoned reaction to it. Let's not muddy the waters this time, and work on the facts.

[Mr Creosote]

1. In that case

there are no "facts" until 14:45 BST which is when the police have rescheduled the press conference.

[non sociopath skin]

2. Thanks for your patience, Taxloss.

Can WE call in the Moderators' Fifth Cavalry if the trolls and conspiracy theorists start to flame this strand?

The Skin

[non sociopath skin]

3. Thanks for the info, Mr. C.

See you online after that.

The Skin

[Mr Creosote]

14. Indeed

and one of the things that turned out NOT to be a fact was the timing of that press conference. Overtaken by events on Harrow Road.

[Nihil]

4. Pedantically no

There are "facts" before the police press conference, the most basic
one being:

"A man has been shot dead by armed officers at Stockwell Tube station"

Now as to the reasons behind it, the presence or absence of warnings,
the details of how many shots & where ... I agree that these can all
wait until the press conference.

[non sociopath skin]

7. With respect, I can't see how you can discuss it without any more facts.

The Skin

[Mr Creosote]

34. Reading down the thread

it seems that even what sort of "officers" these were is now subject to speculation.

[Nihil]

40. Glad to see I was right :-)

Hence my statement of the fact was accurate:

> "A man has been shot dead by armed officers at Stockwell Tube station"

Must admit, I did wonder why the word "police" wasn't included in the
original statement ... just left to assume its presence as the speaker
was "a police spokesman". I was also wondering if SO13 are technically
police or not - i.e., "anti-terrorist police" or "anti-terrorists who
work with the police"? - but I'm pretty sure that they are the former.

[southlandshari]

5. Thank you for opening a new thread

This is obviously a topic folks want to discuss. I am one of two moderators on this forum, and appreciate alerts on posts that appear to violate DU rules. This forum is specifically designed for discussion and information-sharing among our British DUers, and should be a comfortable place for all of you.

Carry on, friends!


:hi:

[Taxloss]

6. No, thank you.

Although modding the UK forum must be like being sheriffin a country town where nothing happens, you showed you're still the law.

[non sociopath skin]

8. The sentiments are appreciated,

The Skin

[Pallas180]

9. Good Morning Mr. Taxloss & All - terrible news again - CNN

reporting that the man who was shot had been under surveillance for some time, that there was no backpack but seemed that he was looking
pudgy in his clothing - intimating packed with suicide paraphanelia around his body.

God help and protect you all.

Pallas

[beam me up scottie]

10. I just read

the other thread and I can't remember the last time I've been this angry.
Certain religious sects use the same methods because they aren't content to practice their beliefs in their churches.
Instead, they go in search of likely candidates for conversion.

I'm sorry for that incident and I hope you all are well.
What the hell is going on over there ? It must be awful to see this happening in your country.
I was thinking of you all when I heard the report, of how disturbing it must be for you since you live in a city where you don't have to see children routinely shot by gang rivals and police.
Some get immune to the violence here and don't realize that cities in other countries aren't like Los Angeles.

Be careful, friends and let me know if I can do anything.

~Linda

[Village Idiot]

11. Awesome Tagline...

I have read the book, but I don't remember seeing the quote...

It is actually FRIGHTENING that it takes an OLD science fiction writer to describe current events so succinctly...

[beam me up scottie]

17. Yeah, that's what slapped me in

the face when I ran across it the other day.
The genius of artists is seldom recognized until long after they're gone.

[Taxloss]

12. Thanks, BMUS.

It's a little chaotic here. What we know is that the police shot a man dead on the Tube today, which is unprecedented. After yesterday's state of alert, everyone is very jumpy. But the risk level is still minimal.

We think the first thread was the first time a UKDU thread has ever been locked. Who would want to troll UKDU?

[moggie]

13. Who would want to troll UKDU?

Someone who hates us for our freedom, I suppose.

BBC reporting possible shots fired in Harrow Road.

[Taxloss]

15. Shootings are happening at Harrow Road,

apparently, centred around an internet cafe.

[beam me up scottie]

19. I'm tuning in to BBC.

I despise the American news media.

[non sociopath skin]

20. Witness accounts apparently vary on whether there were shots at Harrow Rd

... or not.

The Skin

[beam me up scottie]

16. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

:mad:
Who would troll here ?

Someone who wants to spread their paranoia and fear.

An unbalanced imbecile, in other words.

[Pallas180]

21. Someone who would be trolling for others to agree with their

bigotry.

Who knows? - on this side of the pond there are aryan nation, militia, queda recruiters, extremists of all kinds - and especially visitors/baiters from the "opposite" of DU ( I dont think we're allowed to mention their name).

We just don't feed them by answering them...and alert the mod.

So when you see Troll, la la la la...the song of the mole, lol, you
know that's the signal not to reply :)

:hi:

[southlandshari]

24. Thanks, Pallas180

"We just don't feed them by answering them...and alert the mod."

Member alerts are much appreciated and are a critical asset to moderators who work to keep DU a civil place for nearly 74,000 members and many more that number in lurkers.


And now, back to our regularly scheduled topic of discussion, friends, please!


:toast:

[Anarcho-Socialist]

18. Thank you, Linda

Nice to see you here as always.

[beam me up scottie]

33. You're welcome.

No place I'd rather be. :)

[T_i_B]

55. "Instead, they go in search of likely candidates for conversion."

This is not about conversion, this is about Jihad. There is a big difference there. For instance on Fargate in Sheffield of a Saturday a few Muslims have a trestle table, a banner reading "Discover Islam" and they are engaged in evangelism, trying to convert people to Islam by their own free will. They do this because they belive that Islam will be good for you.

The people who are trying to bomb London however, are engaged in Jihad. These people are not interested in converting you to a way of life that they feel will make you a better person. The people engaged in Jihad simply want to kill.

And the daftest thing of all is that they end up killing other Muslims as much as anyone.

[beam me up scottie]

59. I think you missed the analogy.

I was comparing paranoid conspiracy theorists to religious fundamentalists.

Their "mission" seems to be to convert everyone else.

[Taxloss]

22. There's a guy on the BBC

calling for the whole Underground to be shut down every time there's a sub-amber alert. Idiot. From some Tube union.

[moggie]

25. Sub-amber?

What would that be? A sort of orangey-brown?

Shut down the whole underground, and the buses too, no doubt? Sod that, I have to get to work. Though I can quite understand how tube and bus drivers are concerned about current developments.

[Taxloss]

23. Press conference now starting.

Edit: calls for resolution and calmness.

Anti-terrorsit teams working around the clock.

The shot man was directly linked to the ongoing investigation.

Any death is regrettable, but the man was challenged and did not comply.

/Ian Blair

CCTV images of four men to be released soon, related to yesterday.

Inform police; do not appraoch; call 999, if you have info call anti-terrorist hotline [phone]

[moggie]

26. Press conference

Self-delete: redundant

[non sociopath skin]

27. Important too that the police reiterated that this investigation ...

... was directed at the "criminals" responsible and not at any community or part of a community.

The Skin

[non sociopath skin]

30. BBC also pointing out that the the police did not link ...

... this morning's shooting directly with yesterday's attempted bombings.

The Skin

[Mr Creosote]

38. I don't think you can read much into that

there is loads of speculation that this means that the man killed this morning wasn't a bomber. But it could also mean that the police don't want the terrorists to know what's going on, who has been taken alive, who is dead etc. I've noticed before with these police press conferences - on "ordinary" crimes - that they are not necesarily aimed at the audience that it appears they are. They do seem to be used by the police sometimes as disinformation to confuse the criminals.

[beam me up scottie]

29. Your officials are

very different than ours.

They are treating Londoners with respect, informing the public and trusting your citizens to behave responsibly.

Much more representative of your country than Tony Blair, IMO.

I am in total and complete culture shock.

Bravo, UK.

[moggie]

28. Special forces?

There's an alleged terrorism expert speculating that the Stockwell shooters may have been special forces rather than police:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4707781.stm

Prof Clarke said police officers were not trained to carry out operations in this way.

"Even Special Branch and SO19 (Scotland Yard's armed unit) are not trained to do this sort of thing.

"It's plausible that they were special forces or elements of special forces."

Obviously this is just speculation at this stage.

[Spider Jerusalem]

32. Hm...that sounds odd, but not entirely unprecedented...

after all, SAS were on counterterrorist duty in Belfast, so it's easy to imagine them being employed in London (possibly as a stopgap until they have police trained up to do the job).

[Taxloss]

44. Gibraltar?

Death On The Rock?

I'm thinking out loud here.

[Spider Jerusalem]

45. Now that you mention it...

yeah, that does come to mind...but then SAS don't fuck around when it comes to suspected bombers (and if this was a police unit I wouldn't be surprised if they were under the same rules of engagement).

Of course, it also makes one wonder about whether it was simple elimination of someone with known or suspected terrorist links...easy to see both sides of the argument here. And hard to know what the truth is with so little information actually released...Ian Blair's comments at the press conference this afternoon certainly didn't shed much more light on what actually happened, other than to say "the suspect was linked to yesterday's bombings" and that "we are unable to further comment at this time"...

[Benbow]

51. It was the SAS that stormed the Iran embassy, that day

more than 20 years ago.

[Spider Jerusalem]

52. Well, they ARE regarded as the world's best counter-terrorist unit.

So it would make sense they'd be employed in a situation like this (assuming it wasn't MI5 or Special Branch). Who better to send, really?

[Pallas180]

31. It occurs to me

that this has turned from a religious war by the Islamic extremists

to a kind of criminal anarchist free lance operation.

People who are anti government and just interested in anarchy and

chaos just might be taking their opportunity to create more havoc

(world wide) even if they aren't "true believers".

Of course even though bin laden was after getting the West out of

Arab lands and especially Egypt and Saudi Arabia, his and Dr. Zawari

(sp) ideology is to revive the wars of 1500 years ago...when Muslims

ruled, so the turn of events of world wide anarchy certainly gives

him - if he still lives - and Dr. Zawari (sp) much pleasure.

[moggie]

36. That seems premature

We don't yet know the motives of the bombers and would-be bombers, all we have is speculation. But creating a small amount of mayhem in one city (and yes, it still is fairly small) is a looong way from "world wide anarchy".

[Pallas180]

41. Moggie, I am thinking not just of London, but as a total overview -

it is not just London, there are many bombings going off all over the world, not always making headlines as much as Spain and the Phillipines, the USA, Greece?, Turkey, the former Yugoslavia....

and then there are many that have been prevented from happening.

To my way of thinking, when you see the youth involved, it is that type of rebellion partly for the excitement and adventure rather than
ideology.

The "anarchists" in the US who have done lots of destructive financial damage to buildings and so on are all kids. And by kids I mean barely in their 20's. They join quiet protests and disrupt and cause violence which begets the violence of the authorities, and innocent people get caught in it and the hell beaten out of them.

So I'm extrapolating - and my thought is this is going to grow - not for ideology - but for the criminal element joining.

Odd. In the 70's in America we had wealthy educated kids making bombs in expensive townhouses in New YOrk City and bombing places.

Some of it is ideology against bad governments who wont respond, but then I think it degrades to joiners for the excitement, joy and opportunity to destroy.

Sorry to say, but I think that's the way it goes.

We don't live in a world that is safe anywhere anymore.

When bin laden was baiting Clinton, Clinton was smart enough not to go to full war, therefore not creating a recruiting situation.

I think the world can thank the current DC misadministration for creating exactly what bin laden was after....a full fledged world jihad.

[non sociopath skin]

39. We should get some clarification, as the investigation continues...

... into the "networks" to whom the London terrorists were allied.

It is in the nature of terrorism that its adherents claim to have huge aims: it is also in its nature that terrorist groups are comparatively small although, of course, the damage they do may make them seem more numerous and more "efficient" than they actually are.

I tend to be in agreement with the line that the police are taking. Whatever their stated morality, These are ill-willed, misguided and violent criminals and should be dealt with accordingly.

The Skin

[Anarcho-Socialist]

35. Attacks on UK will continue, radical cleric says

Attacks on UK will continue, radical cleric says
22 Jul 2005 14:47:09 GMT

Source: Reuters

By Gideon Long

LONDON, July 22 (Reuters) - Militant Islamists will continue to attack Britain until the government pulls its troops out of Iraq and Afghanistan, one of the country's most outspoken Islamic clerics said on Friday.

Speaking 15 days after bombers killed over 50 people in London and a day after a series of failed attacks on the city's transport network, Sheikh Omar Bakri Mohammed said the British capital should expect more violence.

"What happened yesterday confirmed that as long as the cause and the root problem is still there ... we will see the same effect we saw on July 7," Bakri said.

"If the cause is still there the effect will happen again and again," he said, adding he had no information about future attacks or contacts with people planning to carry out attacks.

More: http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L21141139.htm

-------
Also reported in LBN

[Mr Creosote]

37. Wasn't it

Sybil Fawlty who specialised in the bleedin' obvious?

My thought on this is that just because people are bombing London as a result of the UK's policy in Iraq in Afghanistan doesn't in itself mean that policy is wrong. After all, the Nazis bombed London as a result of our policy regarding Poland. However, Bliar's stubborn, and quite ridiculous assertion that these bombings have nothing to do with Iraq shows that he knows his actions are indefensible. After all he could come over all Churchillian and stoutly claim that we would not be cowed into diverting from our correct line in Iraq. But he won't, because he knows everyone would laugh at him.

[evermind]

56. Actually, I think he hints at that "Churchillian" line in his statements

in response to both bombings (actual and attempted) where he says things like "they will not stop us from carrying on".. He's sort of conflating the (admirable) stoicism of ordinary Londoners getting on with their lives with his own intransigence in adhering to disastrous foreign policy.

It's a really slimy (but clever) piece of rhetoric, I think.

A little speculation regards the "perverted ideology" / "hate our freedoms" / "can't stand to see women on British streets showing their ankles" (Netanyahu actually suggested the latter as an explanation of 7/7!) type of explanation: even with so little information available, I'd feel confident in saying that the kind of mindset alluded to is probably a factor in suicide bombings. Why? Because suicide being such a major and uncomfortable event in someone's life, the mental framework under which it happens tends to take on an "all-encompassing" nature, and if it's for political / ideological causes, those are likely going to be extreme and totalistic.

However, let's not lose the distinction between those committing suicide and those who are recruiting, planning and equipping the bombings. The latter (I'd suggest) are likely to have a quite different psychology. We don't know, but it seems they are probably manipulating the bombers ("brainwashing" is a term that's been used) in a quite calculating way, and they (as a network) have survived and operated for a number of years, mostly without being caught: that suggests a firmer grasp on reality than that of their suiciding tools.

So I don't think it's stretching too far to think that the real powers behind the attacks are in pursuit of primarily political goals related to The West's foreign policy, even when allowing that "freedom-hating" ideology plays a significant role for the bombers themselves.

I think distinguishing between the bombers and their manipulators may be critical to dismantling the confusion stemming from the standard Bush/Blair picture of a homogenous horde of freedom-hating ideologues, which they continually push in order to disassociate themselves from the more unpleasant consequences of their own policies.

[LeftishBrit]

57. Exactly!

"in response to both bombings (actual and attempted) where he says things like "they will not stop us from carrying on".. He's sort of conflating the (admirable) stoicism of ordinary Londoners getting on with their lives with his own intransigence in adhering to disastrous foreign policy."

I agree entirely. I think that the people of London have responded with far more common sense than our leaders. This is one time I REALLY wish we had a PM who wasn't a nutter.

[Pallas180]

42. Why can't the Brits shut this cleric up or arrest him for inflaming

terr a ist acts?

[Oggy]

43. Feedom of speech dear boy

freedom of speech.

Don't you worry though, Tony wants to get rid of it. Freedom and speech, we'll have none that in the United Kindom of Blair. Now move along please.

[Pallas180]

46. Oggie, it's dear girl. smile, here in the US, even before the

current misadministration took over, you could be arrested for inciting to riot, and I guess inciting to murder, although they would then call it conspiracy to murder I guess.

In certain cases, I think it's no longer infringement of freedom of speech - don't you think?

[muriel_volestrangler]

47. Yes, but if you look carefully at his words

he says bombing 'innocent civilians' in the UK is wrong - but he does advocate attacks against British soldiers in Iraq. It's harder to call that incitement to murder. It gets into the 'was the invasion justified, and what is a justifiable response to it?' area. We have arguments about that here on DU.

[Pallas180]

49. Muriel, would that not be called 'treason' and if he's not a citizen

could he be deported?

"advocate attacks against British soldiers"

That's pretty bad.

We're against the war and are furious that young 19 year old American kids are being killed..(for bushco and friends' pipelines)....we're not suggesting or advocating attacks against American soldiers.

I think if any clergy said something like that over here, he'd be torn limb from limb.

[muriel_volestrangler]

50. He's not British; he may get deported

but a specific legal reason is needed.

Bakri Mohammed is likely to have his indefinite leave to remain status removed but trying to deport him would lead to another difficult legal battle.

Officials said that he could be prosecuted under the proposed new law on indirect incitement to terrorism but that will not be on the statute book until Christmas.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,22989-1702400,00.html

[Pallas180]

53. Thanks Muriel, Is it okay for

me to say " GOOD!"

These extremist religionists of every faith have started more trouble all over the world, - currently and in centuries past.

They should all stop being given voice through the media.

There is no such thing as live and let live with them. It's either their way or destroy you.

The extreme religionists have destroyed this country and its constitution!

And obviously other extreme religionists are doing it to many countries the world over.

It just stinks. And the innocents are the victims.

I'm just realizing at how angry I'm getting over what is happening in
London, because I know it's a precursor to happening here and everywhere.

My mind has been on the chunnel. What terrible damage could be done there. I certainly hope that is being very very protected.

[Oggy]

48. It was a figure of speech

I haven't read any quotes where Sheikh Omar Bakri Mohammed has specifically incited murder, although I understand he praised the 911 hijackers. I have read more where he talks about the causes of friction, and inequality. Mind you I haven't read loads!

It certainly is a fine line between freedom of speech and incitement to commit a crime, but my personal view is that I would prefer to err on the side of caution, even if that means sometimes things are said that perhaps shouldn't have. In the end it is not person inciting that actually causes a crime to be commited. Rather it is the person commiting the crime. The problem in the current climate, is what law we have, is not what the criminals ( read bombers ) believe in.

[demobrit]

54. Londoner`s will see it through

[Briar]

58. The met

according to the BBC have just issued a statement admitting that the man had nothing to do with the bombings. He just happened to come out of that block of flats under surveillance wearing the wrong kind of clothes.

[Benbow]

60. You forgot - then ignoring "Police - stop" and running into a tube station