a couple of gems from LBN

[Anarcho-Socialist]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1656219

"The British are stupid and make poor allies."

:crazy:

"...the intolerable actions of a now overtly fascist regime."

I think saying that we Brits live in a fascist country is just an ever so slight exaggeration. We did have a relatively free election recently.

[Taxloss]

1. Wow. Blame the only country on earth which still has a

vaguely pro-American left. Way to win hearts and minds.

America, I'll strike you a deal. You get to call my country a fascist regime when you stop executing the mentally ill. That's fair.

[mr blur]

14. Well said,

I wonder how many "suspects" get shot each year by the police in the US? What does "acting suspiciously" mean there - being black? Pretty sad when someone is so ashamed of their own country that they have to make themselves feel better by concluding that our country is just as nasty and vicious as theirs.

[Taxloss]

15. Only today:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1657100

On edit: notice the number of responses condemning the "fascist thug police".

[Guy_Montag]

16. I've been waiting for a response on that thread

saying that police death squads a free to roam LA, murdering passers by.

[Jack Rabbit]

2. The poster one of those remarks even claims to be a Californian

EDITED for typing

Brits of DU, on behalf of all California DUers, please accept my apologies.

[Anarcho-Socialist]

3. Thanks Jack Rabbit

We always knew you're one of the good guys. :hi:

[Jack Rabbit]

4. Any time

I came down this evening bearing a gift (Freedland's piece on Livingston from tomorrow morning's Guardian).

[beam me up scottie]

5. What a revolting thread.

Sorry for the hate, guys.
It seems some people never run out of that commodity.

Anarcho, you deserve an award for responding to it with reason and respect.
That shows true class.
:applause:

edited to add another round of applause for Taxloss.
You guys rock.
:applause:

[Anarcho-Socialist]

6. Thank you kindly, scottie

:)

[beam me up scottie]

7. I can't bear to go into the

main forums anymore.
Honestly, I can't.
I'm sure that Shari and the other mods will continue to keep this a safe place for you and those of us who love you.

Hat's off to you too, Shari.
:applause:

[Anarcho-Socialist]

8. The mods have done a great job here

I'm very grateful for them.

I still venture into the main forums occasionally out of habit, though seldomly do I like what I see.

I'm going to sleep now... night-night. :hi:

[Pert_UK]

9. I've never had to use the Ignore button "wholesale" before...

Makes me sick, it really does.

I've been here for years and never seen anything like this.

What annoys me more is that I alerted on the thread and requested that it was locked - it had clearly run its course as a "LBN" item, and had really turned nasty. As far as I can see, it's still open.

My response, for what it's worth:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1656219&mesg_id=1657059

[Nihil]

10. Sad isn't it?

I'm largely ignoring the LBN threads now (despite how irritating the
"discussions" are getting). I'm definitely staying away from any GD
ones as there aren't enough hours in the day to keep on top of this.
I'm looking forward to the weekend and a week off (France for a few
days then back to Blighty!).

Sorry if this means I'm abandoning you, Taxloss, AS and the others
but my head's starting to hurt ...

:banghead:

[lockdown]

12. You want the thread locked?

Sorry but I think "Police have been given permission to shoot dead suspected suicide bombers without any verbal warning" is newsworthy. If you don't like it don't click on it, trying to get the thread locked is ridiculous.

[ikri]

13. It is a newsworthy subject

However, the level of vitriol directed at British DU'ers and the British public from a number of posters in that thread is uncalled for.

[lockdown]

17. Doesn't justify locking the thread though.

If individual posts offend someone they should alert on those posts, not call for the whole thing to be locked.

[Jack Rabbit]

22. I agree the thread should not be locked, but some of those posts are awful

My own post on that thread:

Apart from an actual state of combat, any shoot-to-kill-without-warning policy is deplorable and ought to be condemned on it face.

However, one such errant policy does not make Britain a fascist state. I still read the British press because, quite frankly, it is far more trustworthy the US corporate MSM. Elections in Britain are still free and fair. Criticism of the government is still open and widespread.

We should bear in mind that while Prime Minister Blair wrongly joined Mr. Bush's colonial misadventure in Iraq, he did so against the overwhelming opposition of the British people. If Mr. Blair's ruling Labour Party had only the kind of majority in Parliament that Harold Wilson's Labour Party had in the sixties, Labour and Blair would have been defeated last May and there would have been no doubt that his toadying to Bush would have been the reason.

Fascism should be made of sterner stuff.

[Spider Jerusalem]

11. That's probably the worst thread I've seen on this so far.

My apologies on behalf of rational Americans (there are still some of us).

I also have to say the forbearance displayed by British DUer's over this controversy has earned my respect, especially coming in the face of so much vitriol. You guys are okay in my book.



:hi:

[Anarcho-Socialist]

30. Thank you, Spider Jerusalem

:hi:

[RogueTrooper]

18. America Firsters

Fundamentaly they are no different in attitude to their right-wing equivalents. Everything is judged through American values because no other values are worthy of existence in their eyes. They are just PNACers to be.

[Lithos]

19. No, not quite right

I understand your sentiment, but it is not quite right. I think the better term to apply is ethno-centricism. It is not a conscious desire of many Americans to react this way, but rather a result that their awareness of the world is heavily skewed towards the US. (Inherent bias vs. Conscious bias, though I would accuse the PNAC'ers of the latter as well)

The term Ugly American also applies (though I've seen a few British and Japanese tourists on holiday here in the states complain why things were not like they were at home so it is not a uniquely American phenomenon. However, we Yanks do need to be aware there is a good reason the term was first applied to Americans).

L-

[beam me up scottie]

21. I agree.

My mother was from Europe and my father is a very cosmopolitan New Yorker, so I never bought into the nationalism.

I think it's programmed into some Americans and they may not even be aware of it.

[Jack Rabbit]

20. The America First Committee -- not a good comparison to PNAC

The America First Committee was part of the later isolationist movement that sought to keep America out of World War II. It's best known spokesman was Charles Lindbergh. It was founded shortly after Hitler invaded Poland. The group disbanded after the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor.

Captain Lindbergh's reputation is sullied to this day by remarks that he made that have been construed as anti-Semitic. Other remarks made by Lindbergh as a spokesman for the America First Committee had a tone of at least mild sympathy for Hitler's Germany, which any reasonable person would have deemed the aggressor in Europe at that time.

PNAC is hardly isolationist. On the contrary, they often appear to be over-eager to go to war. It is quite the other extreme from isolationism. While America First and PNAC both may be characterized as right wing, the comparisons end there.

Your remarks stand up better as a critique of PNAC, but not of America First.

[non sociopath skin]

23. By using the epithets "Fascist" and "Nazi" too freely ...

... to describe any government actions that aren't to our taste, we debase the currency.

We should keep them to describe the real McCoy.

The Skin

[LeftishBrit]

24. I agree!

[LeftishBrit]

25. Thanks to everyone who's posted that we're NOT all fascists!

Most people in the UK are very anti-Bush. And Blair was only re-elected because Howard is worse.

Nor are most Brits in favour of innocent people being shot.

We do have Bad Things in the UK (e.g. Thatcher; the Daily Mail). But I'd say that even with Blair, we're still well to the left of the USA overall.

To be honest, some of the comments on the British remind me of the right-wing Americans' comments on the French - "stupid and make poor allies" - huh!!! I would expect posters on a liberal board to be a bit less prejudiced than that.

[beam me up scottie]

26. It should be locked.

It's hate mongering based on useless speculation.

There is no reason for this sort of behaviour, especially from longtime DU members.

I'm thoroughly disgusted.

[east saxon]

27. You either agree with our speculations or you're a fascist apologist...

Or to put it another way, "You're either with us or against us"....

[Guy_Montag]

29. Hello & welcome

:hi:

[Anarcho-Socialist]

36. Welcome to DU!

:toast:

:hi:

[southlandshari]

28. Heads up, everyone - please read this!

I just posted this as a stand alone thread in this forum, and would very much appreciate your comments in that thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=191x7117

Please read the post at the link above before posting again in this thread. Many thanks!

:hi:

southlandshari
DU Moderator

[Anarcho-Socialist]

31. The thread has been locked.

I hope DU can have better days.

[beam me up scottie]

32. A big atheist's amen to that.

And DON'T go back in there until I tell you it's safe! :spank:

[Anarcho-Socialist]

33. OK, I'm staying here for a while

:)

[beam me up scottie]

34. Good. You know how much

I hate having to beat you.

[Benbow]

35. I have a theory ...

that it's about "projection" - projecting the unacceptable aspects of America onto Britain. Generalising wildly, Americans seem to be taught that America is a greatest country on earth, therefore bad things can't happen there: the Patriot Act is in America but, no, it must be the UK government that is fascist; in America, from time to time, school-children shoot dead some of their friends and teachers, and there is filmed record of their policemen beating up black Americans, but one UK policeman gets it wrong on one occasion, and - it would appear to some Americans - he is worse than any of their death-dealing children and racist cops.

The DUers who state that Britain is a fascist country are betraying an inferiority complex about Britain, I sincerely believe, and are desperate to have a reason to look down on us/Brits.

<runs away>

[beam me up scottie]

37. No need to run away.

I agree with most of what you said.
Nationalism is taught to us when we're very young.
It's why some people go stark raving batshit about flag burning.

[D-Notice]

38. That...

or they can see the truth about this country & we're in denial

[Benbow]

39. Disagree with you. Sorry.

[D-Notice]

41. It was meant as sarcasm

I should have put a ;-) next to it

[beam me up scottie]

42. D'oh!

I didn't pick up the sarcasm vibe either.

[Benbow]

43. OIC n/t (whatever n/t means)

[beam me up scottie]

40. I think the ones that have their minds

made up and refuse to listen are paranoid and projecting their distrust of government.
It's understandable because they're brought up to believe America is the best in the world and now they find she's turned on them.
It makes them bitter and reactionary.
Granted, your government is not perfect, no government is.
But accusing the British citizens of supporting fascism is way out of line.
It's a common symptom of those who feel they have been victimized.
That's all JMO, of course.

[evermind]

45. What bothers me most about the sort of exchanges we've seen

is when people forget that we're individuals, and clump us together as "all Brits" or "all Americans" - it's just infantile to generalise from the opinion of a couple of people (or actions of one policeman, etc.) and go on to make inferences about the characteristics of a whole nation.

That is exactly the sort of thinking that fascist and other extremist politics preys upon, and without which it can't get anywhere. If the thinker has already divorced themselves from reality to that extent, though, they're easy meat for the demagogues.

[beam me up scottie]

46. Yes, use of the broad brush is

harmful and disruptive.

[LeftishBrit]

44. I think many of them think Bush is a fascist...

and think that Blair is his pal, therefore he's a fascist too; and we voted for him; therefore we're fascists. What they don't fully realize is (a) that Blair, bad as he is, does NOT share the entire Bush agenda; (b) that our electoral system means he got in with about a third of the vote; (c) many of those who did vote for him did so just because they didn't want Howard; (d) VERY few people in the UK like Bush.

[Anarcho-Socialist]

47. I think that's a good assessment of the logic applied