Um, about this Bev/Olberman thang. . .

[eileen from OH]

Can someone supply a succint history of Bev, the history of Black Box Voting and what the hell it has to do with DU? I've heard of her and Black Box Voting (can I not use the initials?) for it seems like forever - with lots of praise for the whole thing, etc. and had no idea there was probs. But after trying to get through the threads tonight and then reading Olbermann's blog it seems like she/it has some real PR problems which ain't helping the ol' verified voting and/or recount efforts.

I know I'm being terrifically lazy, but I HAVE read through some of the recommended archived threads but still don't have a bloody clue what the big picture is. Like, is there more than one Black Box Voting organization/website? Is it an offshoot? Is one more legit/mainstream than the other? Is there some kind of rivalry thing going on or what?

eileen "lost in OH"

[Timebound]

1. The point is...

They are trying to make us fight amongst ourselves. We are all on edge and just need to cool it. Shake our fists at the stolen election and those responsible, not Bev or any other person working to expose it.

[Mojambo]

3. It sounds like everyone could use a break

Lots of people have been working nonstop at this stuff.

[Syrinx]

2. about all I can offer

http://www.blackboxvoting.org

and

http://www.blackboxvoting.com

Are two separate websites, and they clearly don't like each other very much.

[Kelvin Mace]

7. Well, please be fair now

On my site are simple disclaimers. Bev has in the past accused my site of being deceptive, which I challenge anyone to show. She also regularly libels and slanders any number of her former comrades and has publicly called me a liar, a cheat and a crook. When her accusations were rebutted (with her own emails, I might add) she promised to stop posting to DU a promise that she broke after about two weeks.

I have repeatedly expressed my appreciation for a lot of Bev's work whereas she has expressed contempt for me for daring to imply that she didn't do it all by herself.

I can provide you with links to numerous threads of our exchanges and you can judge for yourself.

David Allen

[Syrinx]

13. I appreciate that

I was simply trying to not take sides.

I wanted to believe Ms. Harris. But I don't.

Thank you Mr. Allen. (who, I should point out, to the best of my knowledge, is not skinner. :) )

[Kelvin Mace]

15. No, I am NOT Skinner

Though there is no reason I wouldn't like to be him in another life. <g>

I hate that his name has got out as I amconstantly having to explain I am not him.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Syrinx]

17. so are you guys in the "thick of things?"

As much as I distrust Ms. Harris, I think we have had our democracy hijacked by massive vote fraud. Does your organization have any "irons in the fire," so to speak?

[Kelvin Mace]

20. Yes,

While I am not appearing on TV or radio, I was appointed to the North Carolina Select Committee on Electronic Voting and will help set the rules for the state, which if I have my way will mean paper ballots and open source software owned by the public.

I also am traveling the state speaking on the issue, plus trying to keep folks abreast of the news. I am one person, have no money or non-foundations to fall back on, so I do the best I can.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Syrinx]

22. what can we do to help?

I don't have a lot of money, but would gladly send a few bucks your way, if it would help.

I'm in Alabama. I honestly think Bush would have won here, but not by the margins that he "did." We use the ES&S optical scan ballots. Any news on those? Or anything else I can do to help?

I don't mean to be melodramatic. But the nazi's seem to be in control, if you ask me. And I don't use that word lightly.

[Kelvin Mace]

27. I leave all the fundrasing to Bev

If you want to drop a couple of bucks my way to help pay the bandwidth bill, God bless you. These machines are a menace and they helped screw up this election. The difference between myself and a other folks is I don't see it as a grand conspiracy between all the BBV companies and the GOP, I see it as just the usual fraud, arrogance and greed.

What can you do? Start in your own county, and round up like-minded people and bring your concerns to your county election officials. Recruit local computer experts (colleges and universities are a good place to look) to your cause. Call your reps, write and FAX letters.

Be a pain in the ass, but be a rational pain in the ass.

But STICK to the facts. BBV is dangerous because it is unreliable and insecure. Leave the conspiracy stuff to Oliver Stone. <g>

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Syrinx]

28. okay, good advice

Except that I think it probably is a grand conspiracy.

I live in a university town, so I will start talking to some of the professors, and see if I can get them onboard.

Thanks.

[anamandujano]

4. found this post on another thread

PATRICK Donating member (1000+ posts) Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sun Nov-21-04 08:33 AM
Response to Reply #61
73. In the early BBV posting

Bev had one or two devil's advocates(or real devils I think) who raked her up and done quite professionally on the evidence. When the evidence DID surface regarding insecure code and actual violations, these people gradually vanished. Now I see again some people taking the sole remaining tack, the "personal" ad hominem approach. Mostly low posters again(as my finger hovers over the alert button). Bev is not the typical person or issue that makes it easy to identify a troll but when someone fudges the issue by attacking an isolated lone ranger, disastrously ignored by a now decimated "great" party I'd have to hope it was out of ignorance.

The Qui Tam is supposed to be secret so who knows if it is Bev and if it is it is very unlikely the Justice department will allow her to reap any rewards and it is likely she would blow the case in order to get information to the nation- IF it would listen for once.

The BBV people have been quite right about other web sites that have become toothless or suspiciously fringed with support for some questionable forms of voting machines and security. They exposed the whistleblower documents, challenged the machines and with Avi Rubin found numberless problems in the machines and codes. The people and money trail, the crooked programmers, the ideologies and connections of the owners, the sales ploy and collusion of the SOS's and parties.
None of the news media has done squat. The party has done nothing except bargain away our voting rights under the guise of HAVA. BBV is defined by the media in a misleading and incomplete way.

Bev gave demos and talks to the press club, to voting officials. And what happened? And who speaks out now that the sorry results speak for themselves? Zilch. So blame Bev and make iher do it all alone again as if it is the first time and they STILL don't get the simple points?

This BBV thing is rotten to the core from the Dominionist financiers to the GOP to the shoddy complex and privately owned, poorly certified code to numerous violations to patterns(unexamined!) of bad results regarding reality and exit polls, to numberless "glitches"(who goes to jail for a glitch of 10,000 extra or lost votes?) to no accountability
to the domination of a party that does not represent more than a handful of the citizens of the nation.

So the issue is that Bev has flaws? Sounds like she is running under the scrutiny afforded only to Democratic political contenders. Screw that.

I think the reason she is still alive is that she is so public yet so ingored.

[Winamericaback]

5. I'm lost.. Today was my Birthday I havent been on DU at all

and when I got on all I saw was this attack on Olbermann and Bev and frankly I am LOST. Can anyone explain to me what the heck is going on?

[Kali]

12. happy birthday

me too:party: :toast:

[Zomby Woof]

6. She's a phony

She abuses the people's trust by pretending to care about what gets to democracy's core: The sanctity of the vote, and protecting it.

It's such a noble cause, it builds up a kind of self-immunity that frauds like her can use to protect themselves from the real truth about them - hence her loyal and outspoken following, and the scorn heaped upon dissenters like me or Maddy McCall.

Telling the awful truth about Bev Harris is REAL patriotism... it's like exposing the TV evangelists who hide behind Christianity for their own self-enrichment - people sometimes confuse bashing them with bashing religion. In this case, her followers think bashing Bev means bashing voting accountability or democracy itself. It doesn't mean that all, of course, but you can't argue with sick minds.

[Maddy McCall]

8. Thank you, ZW!

Thank you for GETTING IT!!
Did you see that David Allen posted in the other thread? He was the real patriot behind this movement, but run over by Bev's insanity in the process.

[The Backlash Cometh]

9. You know what I think is so sad, ZW, is that without Bev

this newsgroup has been a real waste of time as far as activism goes.

[crispini]

40. Oh, please, how can you say that?

Look at all of the work Ida Briggs and her crew have done -- they GOT NH RECOUNTED! Look at all of the people who have posted here and who have also been able to do work on the ground in Ohio -- we have had several posters give firsthand accounts of the rallies, etc. Think of all the people who have had their LTTE's printed on this subject. Think of all the money that was raised for the Green/Lib Ohio recount.

Bev may be the most famous "activist" posting here but just because she's got a higher profile than most doesn't mean that other people aren't doing work. Quite honestly, I find your post more than a little insulting.

[The Backlash Cometh]

42. Thank you for reminding me of Ida Briggs.

Ida, my apologies.

Now, to clarify a point. We need to bring the purpose of this newsgroup to the mainstream, just like Ida Brigg's efforts. Bev has a good chance of doing just that. But, seeing the blood-letting last night, I'm not sure we're ready for prime time t.v.

[crispini]

45. Interesting post.

"We need to bring the purpose of this newsgroup to the mainstream" --- agree.

"I'm not sure we're ready for prime time t.v." -- also agree.

The disconnect there is in your assumption that DU should be the vehicle to bring Votergate to primetime TV. I don't think it ever could, should, or would be. DU is a collection of cyber-chatterati, a cafe think tank bubbling stew sort of thing.

If you see a direction that you think would lead towards bringing Votergate to the mainstream, then by all means, lead! Make a plan, lay out the plan, recruit the volunteers, herd the cats, organize, and work towards the goal. I'm doing this IRL with our local Kerry organization-- we're trying to figure out what our direction is-- and as much as I'd like to do the same here, with the votergate issue, I simply can't. I don't have the bandwidth right now, although I will later.

If you'd seriously like to take on leadership of a project, I have an idea which I think would help, but I haven't put it out there yet because I simply don't have time to lead it. Let me know if you're interested and I'll share more.

ciao,
C

[The Backlash Cometh]

53. You misunderstood my intent. What I'm trying to stop is other

people co-opting Votergate & Bev Harris. I want this resolved in a natural way, not in a push and shove mob scene. I wouldn't be so arrogant as to walk into votergate and tell them what to do, I'm just saying that neither should anyone else.

As for DU, what can I say? I think there needs to be private chatrooms for the inside activist to vent. This kind of emotional upchuck just isn't good for everyone to see.

[Ducks In A Row]

47. I agree.

people like mccall and zw need to get a grip.

stop buying into the whines of the whore media.

LePore is a criminal and a leech on the florida election process.

Bev is the thorn on lepore's side and digging in deeper

[Kelvin Mace]

10. Hi ZW!

Amazing the things I discover at 2:00 AM

Is it me, or do you have a sense of deja vu?

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Must_B_Free]

19. How's your investigation of election fraud going, David?

Can you fill us in on your latest efforts and results?

Has Olberman been calling alot?

[Kelvin Mace]

21. I never claimed to be "investigating" it

I was just providing my professional opinion, abilities, time and money to assist the effort. When some people decided they were destined for greater things than my company, I have plodded along as best I could.

I do my part and don't get folks hopes up or make grandiose claims.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[aquart]

14. Maddy McCall, huh?

So tell me what the two of you have done to expose black box voting fraud? How many hours you've put in, miles you've traveled, interviews you've done, demonstrations you've held, lawsuits you've filed.....

I want to hear your contributions to the cause. I'm sure they are many.

[The Backlash Cometh]

16. I've been asking her all night. She refuses to say.

[Kelvin Mace]

23. Ah, tactic #2

And just what have YOU done to defeat Sauron's orc hordes.

Well, I have played my small part. Mostly though, I have had my reputation smeared and my faith in humanity almost destroyed by this kind of shit.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Zomby Woof]

34. It isn't even worth it

The system is broken beyond fraud. Even with "fair" voting, the whole damn thing is rigged for the wealthy and corporations in ways that matter little at the ballot box. We need "fair" voting if only to maintain the fiction of a "democracy".

By virtue of avoiding this sick and broken fascist state, I am doing NOTHING and proud of it.

But since people still naively believe in this corporatized morass called "democracy", it is supremely immoral to take advantage of them with publicity stunts and money-grubbing.

I would respect Bev Harris if she were a REAL activist, even for a fake cause such as "saving America".

[Ducks In A Row]

49. so basically you and mccall haven't done anything....

except cut down Bev.

and can see how that so much more important than exposing the fraud.

I call bullshit!!!

[Must_B_Free]

18. Are Andy and Joan in on the conspiracy too?

What about Randi Rodes, is she in on it too?

[noiretextatique]

25. what exactly is the awful truth?

i haven't been following this today, but i keep seeing accusations, that frankly, are a bit cryptic. i've read that she isn't nice to DU and a few other people, like david allen, but i'd appreciate some more information about why you believe she is a fraud. i'm open to finding out the truth, but i haven't seen much in the way of evidence here. thanks.

[Zomby Woof]

37. I would think

...that someone so deeply and passionately devoted to the cause of fair and valid voting procedures would have perhaps a VOTING HISTORY. You know, something like a lifetime record of working for democratic reform.

But instead, people have rallied around a libertarian literary publicist who didn't even vote for the first time until 2000! She made some bucks a few years before selling anti-Clinton merchandise, which doesn't invalidate the cause of fair voting, but does cast a cloud over her motives. That is, her motives aren't so much political as profit-driven.

I think something smells when it comes to recent converts, especially knowing the kind of scum in her field of publicity.

I realize it is heresy to speak up against someone supposedly on the side of fair voting. Like I said in another post, that kind of noble aroma for a cause builds a large degree of immunity from criticism. Who wants to criticize someone taking on fraud? Sounds so pure and noble! Well, strip away that bullshit veneer, and you have... someone like Bev Harris.

Well, I immune to bullshit, no matter which cause. Especially a cause in which so many consider sacred: Voting.

I think the voting fraud people can do better. Way better. Just like Christians deserve better representation than the Pope or Pat Robertson.

[noiretextatique]

51. whoa there...i don't know jack shit about this woman

and all i kept hearing was she's not a very nice person, who is ungrateful, and perhaps, short-tempered. thanks for the information. i don't think it's heresy at all, but i missed all the fuss yesterday, and by the time i came into this, most of the accusers were being really cryptic. not you, though :D

[pacalo]

32. Please tell me what Bev Harris has to gain from her "charade".

You claim she "abuses the people's trust", she "pretends to care" about democracy, so what would you say she's getting out of it?

[Zomby Woof]

35. Lots of money

Just like the evangelists, she can launder it with the best of them. It is naive and foolish to think otherwise.

Flim-flam!

[Ducks In A Row]

48. sure, and all those lawsuits are free

so when are you going to florida to fight the fraud.

because you seem to be saying you could do so much better.

[pacalo]

52. Oh yes, you mean Bev's goal is to build a large compound of

ostentatious palaces with all that money rolling in. First thing they'd want to do, though, is trade in Andy's pickup for a chauffeured limo to get them from one polling place to another. Better yet, they can get their own jet. Oh, the fun they must be having at our expense!

[robbedvoter]

39. You are right. Been selling El Presidente cigars during the impeachment

and had advice for people on her old site on how to "identify hot button issue and push them" thereby making a lot of money.

Here's the cigar site
http://web.archive.org/web/19991112034903/http://www.talion.com/cigar.htm

Once she got on Air America she started kicking DU. I thought she should start shitting on Randi pretty soon - but Olberman was sharper than that.

It is very important that we prove the fraud. That's why it's important that the people involved be motivated by the higher reasons rather than personal advantage - as it goes to our credibility.
And I admire most of the people here who worked hard - for the truth.
I wish you all not to be conned by anyone - left or right.

[jbnow]

11. I don't know the history but do know

I am grateful for attempts to find truth that anyone is making.

I use to watch Keith's show just because he was smart and sarcastic. Now I am so grateful he is looking at and airing the issues. But, to paraphrase another smart, sarcastic "news" guy, Stew.art, Keith is not our monkey. We wouldn't want him to be. We want him to look and call what he sees. He won't always right, but here's hoping his agenda will be truth.

I've cared so much about electronic voting and possibility of fraud, but I sit and complain about it. Bev has gotten up and done something and I hope her work will help reveal truth. I can't guess at motives or other issues but I sure will be grateful for any findings.

[Kelvin Mace]

24. Many people have done something about it,

Bev just had "unique" was for demonstrating gratitude to those who helped her and those who's opinions differed from hers.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[noiretextatique]

26. what does this mean?

sorry...i haven't been following this closely...but is the exact problem with bev, other than she's apparently not as nice as she could be? are you accusing her of being a fraud, of perpetrating a fraud...or what? i missed the shitstorm, so i'm on the tail-end of this...so, spell it out for those of us who don't know the inside story. thanks.

[Kelvin Mace]

29. Some are accusing her of that,

I'm not going that far. She has alienated many people and said nasty things about people who have helped her get where she is.

The pattern that has repeated many times is that people have come to Bev and been interested in her project. They have helped her, become her advocate and then suddenly found themselves viciously attacked when they committed some sin such as disagreeing with her.

I have suffered MANY such attacks over the last two years and sadly expect to suffer many more. She has promised to sue and I look forward to it, because she will discover that a court room is interested in fact not grandiose allegations.

There are a number of threads here at DU where she shows that side of herself. If you can't find them, drop me a line and I'll send you some links.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[noiretextatique]

31. no need...

i had an encounter...nuff said. so...she's not very nice, or grateful, hard to get along with, and quite possibly a little nuts. but you aren't accusing her of fraud...ok. thanks.

[The Backlash Cometh]

33. OH, for crying out loud. "There are many threads...." there was

one cease and desist order that you all keep repeating over and over again. If you don't understand the legal process, then maybe activism isn't your cup of tea?

[bunny planet]

46. Just playing arm chair psychologist here but.....

Bev seems to have some problems with narcissism and grandiosity and her communication skills seem eccentric at best. She has been very hostile in the few exchanges I've seen here on this site. Perhaps she is doing great work, but maybe she is not the best front person for our cause.

Keith Olberman seems very sincere and he really seems like he is level headed, very smart, and trying to help. It would be a shame to alienate the one MSM source we have in our corner right now. I think we need to start thinking in a much more professional way about publicity as we gain more momentum and recognition for our cause. BBV people (Bev and company) don't seem to carry themselves professionally, at least not from what I've seen. This could really hurt us and sideline us completely if we are not careful. I don't question their motives, yet, but the whole Bev vs. Olberman thing is really getting alarming. We could be shooting off our own foot here.

Let's be smart about this people. Not to be too dramatic but, my children's quality of life and maybe their lives period, are riding on whether or not we retain our Democracy or submit to one party dictatorship. In one month since the election the Repugs have already introduced and passed a law that will allow mandatory mental health screening (with accompanying recommendation of pharmaceuticals) of every school child in America without parental consent. Billboards are being posted around some states with a giant picture of Bush with the words OUR LEADER on them. Back in the USSR yet?

This is trully scary stuff folks. Let's stop the infighting now!!!!!!!! We need to stay together, jettison the people who are working against us from within, whomever they may be, and get this party started!

[jbnow]

30. Thank you for your work

I know many people have been doing something about the problem, but I know I haven't been one.
I am so grateful for those of you who do.
Thanks,

Joy

[november3rd]

36. Olbermann's job

Olberann may have been positioned to discredit her and other bona fide grass roots whistleblowers.

Just a theory, but it was fishy the way the MEDIA BLACKOUT seemed to apply to everyone but him.

[robbedvoter]

44. Yeah. That's why he's the only one talking about fraud. Yup. Yup.

Hod diabolically clever of Olberman....:eyes:

[rman]

38. blackboxvoting.com and blackboxvoting.org used to be 2 sides of one coin

Bev did conceive the anti election fraud effort while active on DU (presumably in part thanks to DU).

The .com site was/is focussed on the book by the same title, and was/is directed more to the public,
while the .org site was/is the research site.

Then Bev and the publisher of the book got into a disagreement and split up.
As far as i can see neither really did anything to warrant a split. it seems Bev took the inititive to split up.
For now i think it's based on an unfortunate misunderstanding that went beyond repair.

I found it rather strange when Bev claimed on AAR that the .com site has nothing to do with the .org site.

It seems that Olbermann is contradicting himself with the claim that Bev *does not want* to go on Countdown, since he also has stated that at some point Bev was sceduled to appear and then canceled by NBC.

Personally i find little reason to suspect either Bev or the publisher, i have much more reason to be suspicious of "the media" (NBC in this case).

[WyLoochka]

41. The woman needs a "handler"

She appears to be afflicted with a severe personality disorder. And I say that as one who loathes the rampant casual use of the term "personality disorder."

It's not necessarily a hopeless situation, plenty of people who have had such disorders have, nonetheless, made significant contributions to humanity in spite of themselves. Bev might be able rise above her affliction, which seems to cripple her interpersonal relationships time and again, if she would seek some wise counsel.

Basically she is way too concerned about "her turf" and getting credit for herself personally. When others make contributions, she panics, lashes out recklessly and threatens lawsuits all around. Then she goes back to being rather charming and enthusiastic about team work and all. Then the cycle repeats. When the team gets going again - there goes Bev - popping off at those who have helped her. It's a destructive pattern that she appears to be locked into.

This is pretty bizarre to discuss this in this public forum, and I believe it to be against our rules here at DU. But Jeez Bev, get some help so that when you feel people are encroaching on your turf, you can check that out with someone who can help you evaluate whether your suspicion is real or imagined. Every time I've seen one of these episodes occur - it's been your imagination that has caused you to beat up on people of honorable intention who have given valuable assistance to you and, more importantly, to the overall effort to achieve the crucial goal of transparent, verifiable voting processes.

[robbedvoter]

43. She is a handler - posing as a cyber sleuth

Lawyers used to say "he who defends himself has a fool for a client"

[Ducks In A Row]

50. you mean like Kerry let the DNC handle him

handlers aren't needed.

handlers are used to fuck up the handlee.

Bev is smart to be herself, to do the work without any assholes trying to screw her up.

and the fact that people like ZW and McCall, and I guess you, are trying to cut her down proves to me she is really exposing the fraud.\

She is doing her job and it scares the freepers shitless.

[Moderator]

54. please dicuss here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=104661&mesg_id=104661