Discuss Keith Olbermann and Bev Harris in this thread. #3

[Skinner]

For reference:

Keith Olberman's blog: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6210240

Bev Harris's response: http://www.blackboxvoting.org

[Patsy Stone]

1. To ohio_liberal ...from the other thread...

"I keep trying to get out..." :)

[ohio_liberal]

12. but they keep pulling me back!

:thumbsup:

[Patsy Stone]

17. Oh my

we're gonna need our own thread! :)

"Michael, we're bigger than U.S. Steel."

Peace.

[ohio_liberal]

28. LOL

Sometimes its good to lighten things up. Because you know Hyman Roth has been dying from the same heart attack for the last twenty years.

[Patsy Stone]

40. You go on with yer bad self!

Meet me anytime to discuss the greatest movie in the world, ever...
Post at will, I'll be there.

"Try the veal..."

[jamboi]

99. Lets be practical! WA recount needs $$ NOW. Focus! Link

See the details on this thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x103695

[Patsy Stone]

deleted by owner n/t

[AmyCrat]

2. reply to americanstranger: on donations and money making

americanstranger said:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=104661&mesg_id=105113&page=
Oh, they're making money, all right.

Since Randi Rhodes decided to throw in and solicit donations for them on her show.

Interesting point - when Randi had Bev on the air, she asked Bev how much money had been collected. Bev side-stepped the question straight from the woman who was responsible for the donations.

Why is that?

-as


- - - - -

Honestly, it doesn't bother me -- they need money to travel, to pay for PR, to develop and host their website, for legal fees and recounts, etc. etc.

As someone who has donated myself, this is why I've been so vocal about the mistakes I feel she makes and how it hurts the whole cause.

Question: doesn't a non-profit 501(c) have to have a board of directors? Who are they?

[Kelvin Mace]

8. After the reaming I got over money

I damn sure expect her to asnwer questions about money. It is VERY germane to the issue at hand.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Stevepol]

9. All this stuff is on her web site.

For a long time she was doing almost all of this by herself with only a few people helping. I have written her checks as contribution a couple times and the check wasn't cashed for some time. She's not an accountant for Heaven's sake. I believe money given to her will be used much more usefully than money given to other progressive sites like the DNC. All of that is money down a rat hole I believe until the voting machines are cleaned up. There has to be a paper audit trail and all machine-counted elections need to be audited for accuracy.

[AntiFascist]

23. I doubt if she would be stupid enough to misapply the funds....

if that is what AmericanStranger is insinuating. For a 501(C) any additional moneys must be applied to the "public cause" of the non-profit corporation.

Madsen recently reported incidents of vote padding in California and Texas in order to provide the 3 million vote "mandate" for Bush. Also reported elsewhere were possible corruption in the 2002 CA election for governor. This was all news to me as I felt Calif. was relatively clean. I imagine that investigating states like Calif. and Texas is a tremendous undertaking that would require a lot of resources.

[Ducks In A Row]

61. I've donated, and I don't see any mistakes

and there's nothing stopping you for asking for your money back.

just tell when you do so other people can make up the difference.

[Nomadic]

136. That set off a little bell when I heard that too...

I don't want to draw any conclusions on that non-answer from Bev, but it did seem strange. Who knows though, Randi steam rolls callers sometimes and it may be just a case of her being a little excited and asking two questions at once or something like that.

I donated some money, and I hope this will be resolved soon. All this fuss is not helping the over all cause - the elections.

[demobabe]

3. Video? No video? Proof? No proof? I'm getting whiplash here...

From Bev's posting here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2777690#2778080

"And Olbermann confuses two types of videotapes in his article, the videotapes from Volusia and those from the LePore thing. In fact, his article makes no sense, as I fail to see how a 30-second video of presenting LePore with her lawsuit sheds any light at all on specific voting machine fraud. The videotape from the Volusia trash is more informative on that, but still doesn't prove anything."

"I did want to clarify that we provided the LePore tape, which was ours to provide. The Volusia videotape does not belong to us, and if MSNBC wants it they need to approach the Votergate producers. To the best of my knowledge, they haven't asked either our group or the Votergate group for that tape."

- - - -

What I don't understand is when we had the dumpster dive incident, Bev Harris documented here on the DU and on her own site that Kathleen Wynne videotaped the whole event - including wrestling over a garbage bag - as the Votergate folks didn't show up until the end of the exchange.

So, is Kathleen holding out, or did she sell those tapes to Votergate, or is Kathleen part of the Votergate folks?

Or does she shoot for Votergate sometimes, and Bev at other times?

Oh wait: maybe they transferred the rights to Votergate so they could sell use of the footage to Keith Olbermann!

In another posting, Bev said she showed this exact footage that she says she doesn't own to the CNN cameras and that they weren't interested.

So why was the footage good enough for Bev to show to CNN, but not Olbermann? Oh right - Bev doesn't own it.

Oh wait, I just reread things and found out it was the Volusia Poll Tapes that she showed to the CNN cameras. My mistake.

So, then why didn't she show them the video recorded the same day by the same person who shot the LePore footage that Bev says she owns?

Bev repeatedly says she is "not making a documentary."

Will Bev go on record to say she will not receive any portion of any monies that result from the sale of the Votergate documentary?

Will Bev go on record and say the Votergate folks will not be using video shot during the LePore meeting since she owns that?

[americanstranger]

5. Good questions, all.

Nice work, DB.

-as

[Snivi Yllom]

6. you nailed it

I bet there is money involved

[Broken Acorn]

14. It's all about money

Don't fool yourself...Bev/Votergate have vested interests in saving this footage "for the right time" to show.

Where are all our heroes? Dean, MM, Edwards, Kucinich, Kerry? Would somebody please stand up and defend Democracy?

JJ has reaffirmed my support in him and the Glibs have my respect now...but where are the rest?

[Ducks In A Row]

63. Where are you now? In Ohio or Florida

again, it sounds like you need to get into the mud yourself and do the work better than Bev.

Bring your video camera so you can share.

[Ducks In A Row]

4. Response to the idea Keith is too important to talk to Bev

Somehow I'm to believe he so important he can't call or email Bev Harris.

Yet, at the same time he takes time to email all the people here who have posted his replies.

I guess there are just so many important people to email, Keith doesn't have a moment to drop Bev an note.

ri-i-i-ight.

[americanstranger]

7. Is that what this is about?

That Olbermann contact Bev personally before there's any movement?

Pardon my saying so, but that's beyond arrogant.

-as

[Kelvin Mace]

11. Many people call and Email Bev

So even get responses.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Karenca]

15. I have received 2 emails from Keith

If that means anything....(Reply to Ducks in a Row)

[demobabe]

18. This is what these guys have producers for

The producers line up the guests and slot them into shows. Takes a whole team to put these shows together because of all the content that has to be gathered. The host does their part by interviewing the guests.

The fact that KO emails people at all is an unusual bonus for us. Most show hosts don't bother. They don't have to.

By your own argument, are we to believe Bev Harris is so busy that she can't call or email KO?

Isn't this what a PR person does by trade? Promote the cause? Hmm...

[Ducks In A Row]

21. so maybe all these email from keith are really from his producers.

keith is punking people at DU.

sorry but it doesn't pass the smell test.

[americanstranger]

26. Ducks, you're just being obstinate.

Anyone who's ever been a guest on any of these shows will tell you that hosts do not contact guests. Producers and bookers do.

And I've exchanged emails on and off with Aaron Brown for a few years now. Replying to an email and booking your own guests for a network show are two different things.

Two. Different. Things.

-as

[Ducks In A Row]

90. And Bev's done the producer route, and been poorly used by them

So say you were scheduled, then canceled because you refused to be censored, then scheduled again, and canceled again for the same reason.

You've given them two chances.

And now you read lies about yourself on the host's blog (A host with more than enough time to email many other people, but never you).

Where in all that would cause you to trust those producers/staff without at least talking about the host this time. Just to be sure the staff isn't screwing you over again.

[demobabe]

32. I hate to tell you this...

But there is no Santa Claus.

[Kelvin Mace]

83. Only a Freeper would say

something like that. Next Karl Rove will tell you to attack the Easter Bunny too. <G>

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[demobabe]

94. Um, David...

I hate to tell you this about the Easter Bunny, but.... ;)

[Kelvin Mace]

115. AQAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!

RUSH LIMBAUGH SENT YOU! DIDN"T HE?!!!

[americanstranger]

22. I made this point in the last thread.

Hosts don't contact guests. Period.

Why is this so hard to understand? And why is Bev Harris different from any other guest that appears on Olbermann's show, or any other show for that matter?

-as

[demobabe]

57. I think it's because

The election was such an emotional issue... we all wanted different results. Bev Harris offered us that hope, and lots of people here gave to that cause gladly thinking they were actually doing something to fix things. Sure, Bev has done a lot of valuable work - no doubt, but she sure managed to get a lot of folks worked up here - giving in some ways false hope.

Who wants to think they got taken in this episode? None of us, of course...

Sort of like the Iraq War. You send your kid over there, they get killed; you want to think they died for something important, not just so Bush/Cheney/Carlyle/Halliburton,etc. could make money. And a lot of these folks will defend to the death how just the war was - even though others of us may have a different opinion.

Denial is the first stage of grieving over a loss.

[AmyCrat]

58. I gotta agree with this

you work the system, or the system works you.

[Ducks In A Row]

107. and what's so hard to understand that Bev has been badly used...

but these same producers, and has no reason to trust them. esp, after keith posts lies about her in his blog.

[mzmolly]

30. Were his viewership, she's a potential guest and better have something

tangible to offer if she want's to appear on his show.

Olbermann supposed to be following leads/passing judgement in this matter...

[saracat]

36. Others have pointed out to you why. You don't seem to get it.

There is a protocol. And Bev is not the exception to the rule. You have a problem with Keith being more important than Bev. You have a problem with How the media protocol is handled.Fine. Battling it will get you no where fast. I'll bet you He doesn't have her on the show. I work on a TV talk show and if I had been treated like that, I don't care what she is doing I wouldn't have her on.

[SomthingsGotaGive]

10. Answer 6 questions please ANYONE.

If anyone can answer these questions BBV is cool with me.

I have posted these question in several of the "BEV Threads" and received only ONE partial reply from MustBeFree. (thanks MBF)



1. Where is the data from the 3000+ FIOA requests. The Largest FIOA request in the Nation's History!
Any of it please, posted online for analysis.

2. Where are the famous Dumpster Diving Poll Tapes? Or Video
One picture please! One captured still from video.

3. How much money has been donated to BBV.org so far since Nov 2 2004? How much has come from DU members ?
Ball park.

4. Who is BBV.org?
Andy, Bev, Kathleen and who else.

5. What, if any, financial interest does Bev or any other BBV official have in the upcoming Votergate movie being made about this Election?
Assuming Bev is using donations to BBV.org to fund her adventures I think a stake, if any, in a movie featuring those adventures should be disclosed.


6. How does Andy know Delmart 'Mike' Vreeland well enough that he was contacted by him from jail AFTER his latest arrest.

> God_bush_n_cheney (1000+ posts) Fri Oct-22-04 06:22 PM
> Response to Reply #32
>
> 34. No he called me from jail
>
> after the arrest. Wanted me to contact some others he trusts.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x924780#924780



More about Vreeland from the following article from The Toronto Star, Canada's biggest newspaper. Either Vreeland is CIA, NSA or a CON MAN...... so How does he know Andy from BBV.

Fugitive nabbed after 2 years on run
Man claims to have foreseen 9/11

Has more than 22 aliases, police say

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1098568216092&call_pageid=968332188854&col=968705899037&DPL=JvsODSH7Aw0u%2bwoRO%2bYKDSblFxAk%2bwoVO%2bYODSbhFxAg%2bwkRO%2bUPDSXiFxMh%2bwkZO%2bUCDSTmFxIk%2bw8RO%2bMKDSPkFxUj%2bw8UO%2bMNDSPgFxUv%2bw8YO%2bILDSLkFxQh1w%3d%3d&tacodalogin=yes


MICHELLE SHEPHARD
STAFF REPORTER

He disappeared from a ransacked Toronto apartment two years ago after claiming he was an undercover American naval officer who predicted the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks. But that was just the latest twist in the bizarre story of Delmart Vreeland — a tale that goes back 10 years and winds its way through the United States and Canada.

Vreeland's whereabouts, however, are no longer a mystery. Officers with an Iowa sheriff's department surrounded his car Wednesday as he was driving an Interstate highway from Denver to Minneapolis. The use of a flagged Shell gas card alerted Franklin County authorities, Chief Deputy Ken Lubkeman said in an interview.

Vreeland's story played out for two years like a Hollywood script, and included the requisite dramatic court scene, when a judge allowed Vreeland to call the Pentagon in open court and an officer confirmed that Lieut. D. Vreeland was listed in its phone directory. Vreeland also claimed he knew that Canadian Embassy employee Marc Bastien was murdered before the official cause of death in 2000 was released, which stated Bastien had been poisoned. Vreeland told his Toronto lawyers, Rocco Galati and Paul Slansky, that he had had death threats. Vreeland has maintained for years that he is the victim of a conspiracy of government officials attempting to keep him quiet; but putting together pieces of his past has been difficult. Reached yesterday, Galati said he believes Vreeland is still working as an American agent.
snip




Read the entire first link. Andy warns of a possible nuke attack before the election.... a very interesting read.

This connection NEEDS to be explained before I can fully support Anything Bev or BBV do again. At the very least behavior like Andy displayed in the above thread is unbecoming of the BBV movement and Bev should reign in her staff.



I have respected the work and posts by the BBV people for a long time here on DU. Recently I have seen BBV say and do things that have shaken my confidence in them.

The Dumpster Diving Story made me cringe.
The sensational story lines and cliff hanger endings of her posts and reports made me dubious.
The stunt Andy pulled to get on Randi's show sent up red flags.
The latest grand standing has just about done it for me.


Thank you for listening.

[anamandujano]

13. Keith and Bev need to talk personally, not through

intermediaries. I am concerned that BushRove/GE-Co is trying to discredit both of them.


Whew, got in before the thread was locked.

[qanda]

16. Skinner, could you provide links in the title to the other threads

For those of us who need to catch up on parts of the discussion. Thanks

[IAMREALITY]

19. I've been avoiding an opinion all day, but

hell with it. I respect Bev and what her convictions are. I am glad and thankful for what she is doing and wish more followed suit. I do however think the Lepore incident was out of line, but also don't care much about that anyway.

What I do care about, and what my overall opinion is, is that regardless of my respect for her and her actions, I cannot conceive any logical reason for not yet releasing the videotape. Now I don't care if no one asked her for it yet. If I were her I would've gone out that night, bought a dual deck vcr, copied the tape as many times as I could, and sent it to every Goddamn media outlet I could find. Say what you will, but there is NOT a good reason I could possibly find for it not yet being aired/release/viewed.

Reality Out.

[Broken Acorn]

20. Bev, PUT UP or SHUT UP - plain and simple

[Ducks In A Row]

24. Nope, she doesn't have to do jackshit, and that's even more

pure and simple.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2777690#2777782

[Ducks In A Row]

27. and this

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2777690#2777866

[Snivi Yllom]

29. then guess what

if she in fact did shit on KO's producer and spammed his e-mail in reponse to his blog, she aint getting on the show any more

[Ducks In A Row]

42. she didn't shit on anyone

but if she did I wouldn't blame her. But she didn't.

Bev Harris has done more and for longer about fighting this election fraud crap then anyone here.

Keith Olbermann is a asshole for pulling this crap and needs to apologize now.

[americanstranger]

What about Roxanne Jekot? What about David Allen?

What about BartCop? What about all the people who asked simple questions and got labelled as 'on Rove's payroll?'

The road's littered with people that Bev has used then dissed, buddy.

-as

[Ducks In A Row]

108. links?

[americanstranger]

116. Do a search of DU.

It's all in the archives, bud. I don't have time to run it all down.

Ask someone about the 'Qui Tam' lawsuit that you keep trumpeting. Did you know that a year before Bev filed that suit, she charged BartCop with wanting to do the same thing? Did you know that she vowed never to 'soil her hands' with Qui Tam money?

Did you know the story about David Allen? He's on this thread, maybe he'll be good enough to clue you in.

I'm truly surprised you don't know about any of this. It all happened, right here on the DU.

Educate yourself.

-as

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

137. link demonstrating Bev didn't do this alone

While I admire and respect much of Bev's work..she let DU'ers write her book FOR her and didn't even admit she was USING the info for a book even when repeatedly pressed.

She has CREATED much of the acrimony she has received by playing people.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=9978&forum=DCForumID70&archive=

[Snivi Yllom]

56. "Keith Olbermann is a asshole for pulling this crap and needs to apologize

Now you sound like BBVs statement on KO.

There's your explanation of why KO wont touch her after this. Unprofessionalism wont get you anywhere with the MSM if you want to play their game.

[mzmolly]

82. Absolutely! This entire escapade is unprofessional to say the least.

:hi:

[Patsy Stone]

81. You know...

I don't know you, but you seem mighty bitter in all of your posts. Please, try and get happy. For yourself, for your friends and for your fellow DUers.

You come off like you've got a real axe to grind with anyone who either disagrees with you or defends anyone else.

Take the green (or is it the red?) pill now...Come into reality. Get a grip. Go pet a puppy. Go listen to "Wish You Were Here" by Pink Floyd. You must chill...

:)

[IAMREALITY]

33. I'll tell ya what

I'm not here to flame or cause contreversy, but I would like a reply to this quote from my above post...

"Now I don't care if no one asked her for it yet. If I were her I would've gone out that night, bought a dual deck vcr, copied the tape as many times as I could, and sent it to every Goddamn media outlet I could find"

[Broken Acorn]

43. Exactly

Reality, if those tapes actually do exist (which it looks like they don't), they would have been sent out to every media outlet available (tv AND newspapers). Furthermore, the fact that CNN didn't find them credible makes me think that maybe they don't show much to begin with. Just a thought.

[Ducks In A Row]

44. but you aren't her.

So go to florida, bring a video camera, and look around for fraud. when you find it, film and share it as you will.

[IAMREALITY]

50. Ducks

I respect your passion, but it would serve you better to actually answer the issue at hand. I am undecided. I haven't cast a full opinion and respect Bev. I am not an enemy. But I AM extremely logical, and logic is missing from the fact that the tapes have not yet been aired.

So I request again, please respond to the following as to WHY she wouldn't have done this. Any other response other than that will be useless to DU and those reading this. Give us a why, that is all we ask. My quote again for you...

"Now I don't care if no one asked her for it yet. If I were her I would've gone out that night, bought a dual deck vcr, copied the tape as many times as I could, and sent it to every Goddamn media outlet I could find"

[BeFree]

119. But you are not her,

Whatever Bev wants to with the tape, it her's to do, right?

You are working in a dark reality, not knowing what Bev has up her sleeve, or even what's on the tape, right? But here you are demanding she do this or that with her property.

If Bev wants to destroy the tape, or show it wide, it's her perogative. You don't even know if she made copies, do you? See, you are in the dark, that's reality, live with it and quit bitching.

[IAMREALITY]

122. Are you Ducks? I don't think so.

But anyway, your explanation STILL has no bearing whatsoever on the question. No one is bitching (well, maybe you). It is a simple LOGICAL question which neither you nor Ducks has now answered.

Please, I implore you, without childish rhetoric or sidestepping the question, please provide ANY LOGIC AS TO WHY SHE WOULD NOT HAVE RELEASED THE TAPES.

IF you can't, then just don't respond and accept your defeat.

Thank you.

[BeFree]

144. Accept my defeat?

What kind of BS is that? I'd say childish rhetoric. I expect better from you.

Here's your logic: We don't know the why. But one can surmise that Bev has something up her sleeve. Maybe she is saving the tapes for a bigger program that KO's?

You don't know do you? Can you answer that simple question, without delving into hyperbole again?

[IAMREALITY]

150. No, You Are Right, I don't Know

However,

"Maybe she is saving the tapes for a bigger program that KO's? "

That is the part that bothers me. What is this, tape to the highest bidder? My point is that who cares who it goes to, hell, it should go to EVERYBODY! From local channel Z to MSM. Online, offline, inline, whatever. Why does it have to be just one show? Why does it have to be selective? If it contains what it is alleged to contain (which I DO believe it does), why aren't there 1000 copies by now submitted to every damn outlet she could find an address for?

That is the only thing about this whole thing I don't understand. It just doesn't make sense.

[Kelvin Mace]

54. That AND

I would have posted it as an mpeg on every site on the web that would host it.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Broken Acorn]

34. Ducks

No disrespect, buy Bev's response about the challenges of producing a tape to MSNBC cannot be compared to Palast's research or a lawyer posting work over the internet.

A tape is a tape is a tape. Seriously.

I am not taking sides on this issue, all I am stating is that Bev should produce these magic tapes (if they even exist) and give our Democracy a chance.

I have nothing against her, in fact, I commend her for her work.

But show the tapes or stop giving people false hope.

[Ducks In A Row]

55. my hope is not false

and the screaming from the media who can't control this story tells me that my hope is not false.

the gossip from keith tells me it's not false

but hey, there's nothing stopping you from doing exactly what Bev's been doing, making your own video of it, and sharing it.

[Broken Acorn]

65. Ducks

what's your problem dude? We're all on the same team here. We just don't understand why you're defending someone who hasn't backed up her allegations. What's the deal?

[Ducks In A Row]

114. and I don't understand why DUers defend the MSM all of a sudden

and demand Bev, who is the one doing the heavy pulling, roll over for the MSM.

Remember? MSM. The assholes who whore for bush, who made sure swiftboat vets had a national platform?

sorry, but if it's between a fair weather "friend" like Oblermann over Bev Harris, I'll take Bev each time

[LoZoccolo]

130. Fine - let's implement your scenario.

Let's say "fuck you" to Olbermann and "rah rah" to Bev Harris.

OK the story lingers out there as some conspiracy theory (or a story that has as much credibility in most peoples' minds as one).

Hey hey, we really told the MSM! Woo hoo! Who cares about the 2004 election, we fucked over MSNBC! Rock rock rock rock rock and roll high school!

[saracat]

131. Because we need them to cover this issue or it doesn't exist!

What is sooo hard to understand about that? How is the world going to know about this issue if no TV journalist will touch it, HUH/ Tell me that. Are you gonna leaflet cars? Please.K eith is our last best hope and a few print journalists.

[LoZoccolo]

47. So, she defends /herself/, so?

What about all the people that gave her money?

All she is doing in that post is getting in her side of the he said/she said on her donors' nickel. I don't give a fuck who said who - who's obstructing the news is what I care about. She could go there now with the tape.

[Karenca]

46. I can : I have an opinion of why the videotape is not being released:

but being that I am quite new here, I'm afraid I will get attacked for not knowing what I'm talking about.
But, I was lurking here a long time before I joined.

Never mind--------come and get me:
There is NO good reason IMO to hold this back from MSM. A tape such as this could very well be our smoking gun. This is not a time to be self-serving, when the future of the whole world is at stake here. You cannot argue that any one of us would submit the slightest bit of evidence of fraud to any Media outlet we thought might give us even a crumb of recognition.
We wouldn't even think about how much money we could make some day out of a book deal or a movie.

[ccarter84]

91. Kick, and don't worry, I doubt too many ppl will hunt you down

[mzmolly]

25. KO has a responsibility to air credible information, not speculation.

If Bev doesn't have any proof of election fraud yet, he's every right not to take her seriously PERIOD.

I am disgusted at the egos involved here. Don't we all want the truth? I resent the public he said/she said over this whole thing. I refuse to take sides.

This isn't about Bev Harris, it's about our democracy. Keith Olbermann is a voice in the wilderness, but he doesn't have an agenda.

He want's the truth and I resent that anyone would flame him on behalf of Bev Harris or anyone for that matter.

What a disgusting ordeal.

[Ducks In A Row]

31. I call him a bullshit artist

he has the ability to pick up a phone or send an email (as proven by the many replies people say they get).

And in the end he's not good for much if he can't be bother to find out the truth.

[mzmolly]

37. How do we know Bev isn't a "bullshit artist" isn't she the one collecting

money to prove voter fraud?

Has she proven jack shit yet? No, she hasn't. KO has a right to be skeptical and ask Bev to call him when she has her shit together, period.

[saracat]

52. Thanx MZMolly.

I don't know that Bev isn't legit, but I don't know that she is either.Her mission is legit, but her miserable PR is damaging its credibility. I am with KO on this one.

[mzmolly]

64. You and me both Saracat. I just read his blog again.

He closes by saying:

I don’t know her motivations and I don’t know her bona fides. But I’m afraid at this stage, intentionally or by the simplest of communication failures, she isn’t helping illuminate this issue. And every step that attracts heat but not light is another step towards discrediting the entire process.

I tend to agree. At the very least I am disapointed in the lack of professionalism and seriousness that this subject deserves.

[Kelvin Mace]

72. I would like to remind folks

that Bev and her crew were attacking me and my site as deceptive, warning people not to give money to me (despite the fact that I pulled my PayPal buttons and had THREE disclaimers and links to her site), the implication being that I was trying to cash in on her site. People even accused me of being a "Repug" trying to discredit the issue.

I have never had any active "fundraising", only through up PayPal buttons as a "tip jar" to help pay the bandwidth bills.

I challenge anyone to go to my site and find anything which brings discredit to the anti-BBV movement.

David Allen
http://www.plan9.org
http://www.blackboxvoting.com

[Jersey Devil]

89. So you are the "other guy"

I am still fairly new at hanging out here a lot though I've been a member a long time, knew there was a former associate(partner?) of Bev and a breakup but didn't know it was you.

She turned me off a few weeks ago when, after telling everyone she was too busy to keep her website up to date spent the better part of an entire evening here warning people not to use "cleanup crew" in their posts and blah, blah, blah about copyrights and trademarks.

[Kelvin Mace]

125. Her publisher

former contributing writer and tech consultant at your service.

Once upon a time, I was proud of this effort. Everyone got along so well and I said this was the first adventure in "open source investigative journalism" Bev LOVED that fraiming of the effort. A 53 year-old grandmother and a 43 year-old comic book publisher recruit a team of geeks and take on a multi-billion dollar corp.

Man, what a concept.

Then the issue took off and the world was paying attention. Suddenly, Bev started having problems with us and the issue went from open source to proprietary. To quote one of Bev's more famous remarks on the issue:

Don't say "oh, it's so sad, they were such a team." This was my work product, folks. My research. My time. My publicity efforts. My proofing. My structural editing (didn't get that, either). My fact checking. My Pulitzer-Prize deserving work.

I rebutted this claim here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2021230

Once this is over I will NEVER get involved in this type of thing again. I don't care if they have signed confessions and all I have to do is slap on the 'cuffs and pose for pictures. They can take it up with my cat.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Ducks In A Row]

73. So ask for it back if you give and you can't trust her

Remember, she's the one with the track record.

Keith has nothing except a gossip show. The man's too lazy to do any work on a story, blames "staff" for his stupidity. Next thing you know he dog will have eaten his email to Bev.

Bev's the one who brought the case against Diebold in California. Not Keith Olbermann who couldn't buck his bosses and say the word fraud (until they must have told him it was ok this week)

BTW, Diebold in California isn't over. Even though she was offered money to drop it now. I guess she's not in it for the money after all. Refusing thousands of dollars not the act of a money grubber.

This harrassment isn't worthy of DU, and it disrespects Bev Harris.

[IAMREALITY]

75. No One is Harrassing Anybody

And I would still like an answer to my post above. Don't avoid the issue....

[Kelvin Mace]

78. Her track record is

all about alienating and pissing of allies and reporters.

Not very helpful.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[BeFree]

96. Not me

Besides, unless one is an all out activist, like Bev, one never knows what it's like. Allies and reporters piss a real activist off all the time., and they usually are to blame, since they get in the way of what action is being taken.

Say, Allen, I heard you were appointed to a commission in NC having to do with the voting process, what up with that, any news?

[Kelvin Mace]

140. Yes, I was

appointed by the NC General Assembly to the Select Committe on Electronic Voting which is charged with developing legislation for the use of these machines. There are 10 legislators, 2 "civies" (myself and Warren Murphy from NC Common Cause) and the Director of the SBoE.

The proposals Warren and I will be putting up are:

1) Paperless is illegal
2) Proprietary software/hardware must go
3) Open source, taxpayer-owned voting software

I will be posting to blackboxvoting.com and thoughtcrimes.org what happens. Our first meeting is the 13th.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[BeFree]

147. Fantastic

I feel better knowing you are representing us "civies".

You be sure and let us know when the rest of us can bring some heat, eh?

[Ducks In A Row]

103. so that's how she got diebold in to court in california?

well it's obviously working for her.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

143. You're as bad as her when it comes to giving HER all the credit

There were many scholars that made that Diebold case possible...Bev had no independent knowledge of any of the computer issues until she USED DU and a whole host of people to compile that info..then BURNED them when it came time to take credit

[mzmolly]

101. Scuse me? What track record? She wrote a book ... and now claims to

have evidence she won't present. I haven't seen any evidence of actual fraud, you?

"But we didn’t cancel on her - we wanted, on that first night raising this touchy subject nobody else had previously covered, to have more mainstream guests. And we wanted her back another night. And since then we’ve wanted her to come back with her video. And she hasn’t."

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that if you want air time you have to have a reason to be given it.

Further, she is collecting money every day to pursue this:

See here:

http://www.blackboxvoting.org/donate.html

I don't care what happened. Perhaps it's a misunderstanding, but I deeply regret how she's handling this entire situation as of late.

[BeFree]

84. How do we know your not?

Ya know it takes money to do anything. Keith collects money, and what has he done?

This ragging on Bev is really starting to piss me off. She has done more than ANYBODY on BBV shit and at great personal and monetary cost. She deserves more than she will ever collect from us.

She has proven jack shit, you just were never around to read it, molly, you really don't know the half of the whole thing.

If Bev wants to tell Keith to jack-off, I support her. If she wanted to quit and walk away, I'd support her. She DESERVES everyone's but the enemy's support. Which kinda looks like what I'm reading.

Ya'll are pissing me off. Don't piss off BeFree. He don't like it.

[americanstranger]

93. Please.

You're the third person today who has implied that I'm 'the enemy' because I don't agree with you, or because I don't support Bev Harris.

You think you're getting pissed off. I don't much like being called 'the enemy' here. I'm just using my brain.

-as

[Name removed]

111. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[americanstranger]

118. I'll be polite.

I'm partner in a site called Take Back The Media. TBTM just spent the better part of a year putting together a documentary about BBV.

It's called education.

At this point, I could care less whether I'm your friend or not. I don't have to prove my cred to you or to anyone else here.

You can take your friendship and.... oh, wait. I said I'd be polite.

DUers who spend their time IDing other DUers as 'the enemy' remind me why I'm spending less and less time here.

-as

[BeFree]

126. Awww, did I hurt you feelings?

If you think of yourself as an enemy, than that's fine. I won't argue. But I will point out your arrogance. You think I should bow to you because you are somebody who made a documentary and have connections? Ha!

I would , however, bow to Bev, in a heart beat. There are not many people alive I'd bow too.

BTW: I never Id'ed you as an enemy. I said that it sounds like enemies attacking Bev. You took it all wrong... why am I not surprised?


On edit: Re: My deleted post, I guess I shoulda wrote if it walks like a duck, eh? Just thought i'd not use duck since duck is a poster on this thread. Tha'ts why I used snake, nothing personal, I like snakes. Thanks.

[mzmolly]

117. You don't. But I'm not asking you for money and publically battling

with the only source of major media who's given air time to this important issue of election fraud am I?

I don't know Bev's finances, you? Do you know if she's better off financially today than she was before this issue came to light?

And, I am not "ragging" but I resent being put in a position to take sides. That's bullshit.

[BeFree]

135. Your position is

As I see it, you asked if Bev was, basically, stealing money. You put yourself on one side when you did that.

I'm quite sure Bev has not reaped her just reward for her efforts, and never will.

I've seen it happen too damn many times. An activist goes hard against the machine and gets sniped at by those who do nothing. Your snipe at Bev's finances was uncalled for and reminds me of what enemies do. Whether you are an enemy of Bev, or not, I don't know. But your words are an indicator, eh?

[mzmolly]

139. Bullcrap! I never said she was stealing money! Don't put words in my

mouth.

What I said was how do we know she isn't full of crap? We don't. And, Keith Olbermann certainly doesn't which was my greater point.

FOR THE RECORD: I don't believe she's full of crap, or stealing money. But I do believe she's letting her ego get ahead of the ultimate goal, and as a person who has supported her financially I have every right to speak my mind on the matter.

I shouldn't be aware of her spat with Olbermann nor should you.

And as for your do nothing comment, your mistaken. I am an activist in my own right, I don't need the limelight or a measuring stick, in order to know that I'VE personally made a difference in this world.

[americanstranger]

38. Burn those bridges.

Go ahead, burn 'em.

The only guy on TV that is giving the story any play at all, and he's a 'bullshit artist' because he won't give Bev a phone call.

Smart. Real smart.

-as

[saracat]

45. His producer has picked up the phone and apparently as recently as today

she was treated abusively. Bev herself states she was talking to them today and I don't think Keith would be lying about this in his email. Exactly who does this women think she is? Princess Di come back to lie? Her story isn't exactly one everyone is clamoring to hear except on DU and we are a limited audience.This is sounding like she wants to be a diva. And before you flame me Ducks,Keith has the right to be a Diva if he wants.It is HIS show.

[Ducks In A Row]

79. It may be his show, but he needs Bev to get ratings

and spreading lies about Bev isn't a good way to do it.

Oh, it's a typical way for MSM to go about things. It's their way to try and force people do what they want.

btw, refusing to be censored is not being a diva, and refusing to roll over because keith is bad-mouthing is not being a diva.

thank god we have a strong person like Bev fighting for us.
But it's not wrong. Instead, Keith is showing his true colors. He is just a part of the MSM.

[saracat]

146. Ha! ha ! ha! Ha! Ha!

ROTFL You have got to be kidding? Right? Does anyone outside of DU give a flying F-ck about Bev Harris? Are you claiming that the American public "know" who she is? But they do "know" Keith! Your arrogance is truly appalling. I was somewhat interested in BV but you and some of the other posters supporting this behavior have totally turned me off. I have NEVER seem such an unprofessional group in my life. I now doubt the she does have any tapes or any evidence. I would be delighted to eat my words but something isn't right.

[AmyCrat]

49. it's up to keith to follow the story

when there's something to follow. If what he says is true and she won't share the info she has, what is there to follow except for her little outburst in Florida? "I've got tapes but won't show them" -- okay, he reported that.

[Snivi Yllom]

35. Keith is a media whore, but....

And will do what he needs to do to boost his ratings and protect his career.

That being said, is also means if he smells bullshit, there is no reason for him to put his neck on the line and put on the air questionable material. Look what happened to Dan Rather.

[mzmolly]

41. I don't think he's a whore. I think he's a person of integrity who was

decent enough to give a voice to the matter of voter irregs.

I agree with you that he needs to be cautious about what he airs as he has a reputation to uphold.

He's sticking his neck out covering this story, and the people who are making claims better damn well have their crap together if they want air time.

That's how I see it. These charges are serious, and people making them should have evidence if they want to be taken seriously.

[Snivi Yllom]

48. ok, he's not a whore...

Maybe he's more of a pimp who would whore his mother out for higher ratings.

He's been pushing the and he knows he's the only one pushing the story. A bit of a gamble for him it seems to me, and I don't think he's gambling for the good of the people.

[mzmolly]

59. I disagree. I know his history with Faux news and the fact that he was

fired for not towing the company line.

I think in light of what happened to Dan Rather, we all owe Mr. Olbermann a debt of gratitude.

[saracat]

62. Thanx Again MZMolly . So true.

[bain_sidhe]

39. Repeating... Eyes on the prize, guys

Lets not get sucked into the "lets you and him fight" game. As I posted on the previous thread, both Bev and Keith are pursuing the same goal: Exposing the fraud, documenting the "irregularities" with an eye toward AT LEAST building support for reform that will prevent them from happening again. I don't know whether anyone consciously started this game, but I'll note again, it's a game the republiKKKans play very well - Environmentalists vs. labor, minorities vs. blue-collar workers, "heartland" populists vs. "limosine liberals."

Again, (from my previous post) any energy we spend fighting about whether Keith or Bev are "right" is energy we're NOT spending where it matters - investigating the vote and exposing the fraud. And that only serves the interests of those who want this whole issue to die.

Both Keith and Bev are doing good work, out of good motives. They are not doing the SAME work, but that's no reason for those of us who share their goal to keep the issue of voting fraud alive to choose up sides and go at EACH OTHER.

Eyes on the prize, guys.

[Patsy Stone]

51. Personally, I wouldn't be suprised

if he completely stopped reporting on this, thanks to the sophomoric way some people 'round these parts seem to have conducted themselves. If it were me, I'd probably tell you all to take a hike at this point.

Please, stop. Stop the insanity. Stop making us look pathetic. Stop yelling at him. Stop yelling at each other. Shame on us!

[saracat]

60. Absolutely. I wrote and told him to keep doing such a great job and

ignore this bullcrap. I told him I was sorry he had been spammed by Bev's supporters and hoped he would report the story anyway. Sigh.

[Patsy Stone]

68. Right!

Wow, I am embarassed. I was going to send him a quick note also, but I just could't bring myself to admit that I had anything to do with people that would curse him for not spewing whatever they wanted to hear reagardless of the real reality of the situation.

I hope DU didn't burn it's bridges.

[mzmolly]

67. Here here!

:toast:

[Karenca]

71. Agree again Patsy....We will lose the only Media person we have.

I can't believe we would do this to ourselves.

[Patsy Stone]

74. Hi! Psychic Space Twin...

How YOU doin' today? I'm going home now, but I'll be back on later when I get there. :)

Meetcha for Countdown. :)

[Karenca]

77. Gotcha! :))

:toast:
See you later!

[smartvoter]

95. This is so logical and obvious that it is maddening it has to be said.

But I said it yesterday and was flamed. So there you go.

[Karenca]

123. Absolutely maddening

Why bite the hand that feeds us?
Are we masochists, ot have we lost our minds from grief?

[demobabe]

92. Oh, I don't know...

I think we all have probably become like a cheap sort of amusement for him at this point - I'm sure he's having a good laugh right now.

Kinda like why people get cats and give em a piece of string.

[Broken Acorn]

53. Simple Conclusion

Keith called Bev out (alluding to her being a liar about the dumpster tapes) but still gave her a chance to reveal them.

Bev responded by calling KO a liar.

I don't know about you guys, but KO has been on this story from the beginning and would love to break it wide open. I don't think he has anything against Bev. But I do believe that he smells a rat in her (just like the 2004 Election).

Plain and Simple

[neohippie]

100. nobody called anyone a liar

and this matter isn't plain and simple. Did you read both KO's blog and Bev's response. They is room for some truth in both of them. Why are you trying to be so divisive?

You say KO has been on this story from the begining? What is the beginning? Nov 2nd, 2004? Bev has been working of this issue for years.

People are so quick to jump to one side of an arguement here, when the facts haven't even been completely revealed yet. How do we know that the producers and staff haven't misled or misinformed KO?

I have no reason to mistrust Bev, and I admire her for the hard work she has done. She has stated the the video tape of showing evidence being pulled from the Volusia county dumpster belongs to another party and put the producers in contact with that party. No one is witholding evidence here, give the players a chance to work out the details.

Everyone needs to take a deep breath and try to remain rational and calm. I am just as upset about the outcome of this election as many of you, but there is no reason for us to be at each other's throats.

BEHAVE!

[tbuddha]

66. I talked to Bev on the phone this morning

I still think she's doing a great job. I'm tired of arguing with people on this board who have no clue. I feel like we should be focusing on getting this election overturned, not arguing over who said what to whom.

Myself, I'd like to focus on the rally in Ohio. An Ohio recunt is where we have a chance to win this. We need people on the ground out there though.

[Broken Acorn]

69. Buddha

I am glad that you spoke with Bev this morning (although there is no way I would ever know for sure).

My point is that, YES the Ohio recount/demonstrations are very important. That is exactly why if Bev released the dumpster video, it would help build momentum that this election was illegitimate.

Plain and Simple

[DTinAZ]

70. lots of noise...not much light...

(this was the last post before the most recent moderation lock...)

My take...

1. It sounds as if Olbermann's staff is guilty of misinforming him regarding communications with Bev.

2. Olbermann used unnecessarily negatively charged language in describing the recent LePore incident..."burst into"..."raced to the podium"..."screams at public officials"...is that actually what happened? Did he see a tape of the incident that backs up this colorful description?

3. Bev is frequently impossible to reach, but posts here at DU frequently...but oddly enough, she never posts in her own forums over at BBV...that's odd...

4. Anyone posting here that they've received email responses from KO shouldn't necessarily be believed...they are most likely making that up to make themselves look important. However, if KO did indeed claim that Bev has been "spamming him" today, that's at minimum a total misuse of the term "spamming"...one often made by ignorant people...and I don't think Keith is that ignorant.

DT

[Patsy Stone]

76. I've got the e-mail in my inbox to prove it, baby.

No BS here.

I didn't write him about this f'n mess, I wrote him the other day. And yes, he did respond to my e-mail.

[DTinAZ]

80. You're not the one to whom I was referring (n/t)

...at least, you're not using the same screen name...

[Guava Jelly]

86. Bev is like WOW !!!

She can turn water to wine.
And a noble cause into profit...MAgical
OK now let me pull out my wallet...Just kidding

[Kelvin Mace]

106. That is funny

But you have to use different color text.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Patsy Stone]

87. I know...I'm just sayin'

he does respond...And my little heart went pitter-pat when I saw he bothered to reply at all. :)

[Karenca]

85. And I have the email too .Why the hell would I make that up?

And it had nothing to do with this story, which I wish would just die already.

[DTinAZ]

110. not you, either...

...I was referring to the person who supplied the "spamming" quotes. I also qualified my point with "shouldn't necessarily be believed"...I didn't flat out call anyone a liar...I'm just a bit skeptical.

[loritooker]

127. "Ms. Harris has basically spammed my offices today with threatening calls

and messages". That's part of the message that Keith Olbermann sent me this morning. I'm not trying to show off (but it was kinda exciting)!

[DTinAZ]

134. yep...that's the suspicious quote

"basically spammed my offices today with threatening calls"

I don't buy that. She was probably mad about his insulting blog article, and if she got their voicemail repeatedly and left something about wanting a retraction, then perhaps his staff misrepresented it to him. It's entirely possible that Olbermann's staffer is simply covering her own butt about the previous misrepresentations regarding communications that didn't take place.

[troubleinwinter]

88. Bev is supposedly a PR professional...

And yet has NO CLUE how to avail herself to the one and only friendly media person to get her story out.

So, a question: If BBV is a non profit, how does she make $? A part of the movie that is not a part of BBV.org???

Also, what exactly has she accomplished thus far? A claimed 3,000 FOIs. How many HAVE been complied with? How many have not? One suit filed? How many county election offices HAS she been to so far? What are the results?

A grandstanding act at Le Pore's meeting, that really has no relation to the task at hand.

Some things feel amiss to me.

[AmyCrat]

97. You can pay yourself a salary

But that still doesn't answer one of my previously asked questions.

Doesn't a 501(c) have to a have board of directors? I don't exactly understand how it works, but you can't be an individual with a 501(c) from what I know.

http://www.irs.gov/charities/charitable/article/0,,id=96099,00.html
<snip>---
To be organized exclusively for a charitable purpose, the organization must be a corporation, community chest, fund, or foundation. A charitable trust is a fund or foundation and will qualify. However, an individual or a partnership will not qualify.
---<snip>

Not trying to create more conflict on the matter -- I genuinely would like to know.

[Kelvin Mace]

102. Yes, it has a board of directors

Who runs Black Box Voting?

Board of directors:
- Linda Franz (Washington state), with knowledge of HAVA and pending voting machine legislation;
- Jim March (California), with expertise in lobbying and computer programming. March has been heavily involved in analysis of the Diebold software, and testifies regularly at California
Voting Systems Panel hearings;
- Joseph M. Bailey III (Washington state), founder of an electrical workers union for people of
color
- Thalia Dudley (Washington state), a member of the Dudley family, an African-American family who has fought for the right to vote every generation for five generations;
- Vickie Karp (Texas), who is also chairperson for the Coalition for Visible Ballots, and recently made the news with a billboard campaign about the need for paper ballots
- Agrippa Williams (Washington state), renowned for his work keeping black history alive, and the recipient of many awards for outstanding citizenship (he once gave a kidney to a complete stranger in order to save his life.)

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[AmyCrat]

104. thanks david n/t

[Kelvin Mace]

113. You can read the whole post about the org

here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1960084

But, beware, this is the posting about the CA lawsuit which touched off a firestorm as well.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[smartvoter]

105. NPOs are required to provide this data.

Salaries, revenues, the whole ball of wax. Within a day, I believe. If you call, you'll get your answers.

[Broken Acorn]

98. I agree

There is something fishy about BBV.org. They may be outstanding people, but money corrupts absolutely. Why is it that they are so busy doing all this work, but not substantial has come of it? Only claims.

Please don't view my devils advocate attitude as being negative. I am just trying to open people's eyes to Bev & BBV. They are starting to act the same way that the tin foil hat people look to the MSM when we are trying to get their attention.

Not a lot of credibility until we/she show the goods.

[neohippie]

120. What has Bev Harris done for the Black Box Voting Issue?

She wrote the book... literally, and now she gives it away online, to anyone who wants a copy, she has worked tirelessly for years on this issue.

Now you show up a month after the election screaming for her to put up or shut up! You show up as a critic 8 days after the election.

Carl Sandburg once said that a critic was someone who would show up to the battlefield after the fight was over just to shoot the wounded, and you seem to be doing just that.

[Broken Acorn]

128. neohippie

I don't need to defend my past and present Democratic actions and positions. Let's just say that I have been extremely active the past 10 years in Grassroot campaigns, especially the past 4 years to get W out of office(i'm only 27), worked at an Economic Think Tank that defends the social welfare of a liberal state, am a very talented software engineer who has an inside knowledge of the GEMS code, helped start up Moveon.org, and have been working my ass off since Nov. 2 to swing attention to the electronic fraud issue within my community (and have been very successful in my efforts).

Bev has done our country a great service by working on the BBV issue. BUT, she is not any better than any one of us. Together we can fight this thing.

So by her saying she has tapes, but not producing them is selfish in her own interests. If they can produce a shift in public opinion, that is much more valuable to the future of our country than any monetary gains she will realize by selling her new Votergate video after the 2004 Election is long gone.

I'm on your side, I'm just giving you another perspective on what is happening. And sometimes our biggest critics are our family and friends. They are only looking after us.

[Kelvin Mace]

129. She wrote the book

with the help of about a dozen people. She was been working on this project for about two years. I wrote about it in 1994 for a computer column, Ronnie Dugger wrote on it in 1988 and I have a booklet from a symposium on the topic from 1986.

I give away the book too, though my version is the original and devoid of Bev's "corrections". As a matter of fact, it was MY idea to give the book away:

He (David) and I were so tired of being called names, and having our motives questioned, that he said "let's just give the book away." God bless him. He is an amazing, amazing man of great character. I agreed immediately and we announced it in an interview I did with Buzzflash Sunday morning.

Bev Harris
10/26/03

[Imajika]

121. What about previous fraud claims?

Didn't we hear in 2002/2003 that Bev Harris was disseminating "proof" of fraud to her networks, who would forward it to their networks, and then onto their networks, and so on?

Wasn't their supposed to be evidence of fraud so great that it would rival the Pentagon Papers and possibly bring down a President? I've seen exactly zilch from Bev Harris that would worry the Republicans even slightly, and certainly no major information that would rival a scandal like the Pentagon Papers.

These announcements sounds like something from a clever marketing campaign to me - did in 2002/2003 and the stuff I'm seeing from BBV does now as well.

Wasn't Bev supposed to be hiding for her life because of all the fear she was causing Bush and the Republicans?

What ever happened to all that? Where is her real "proof" of voter fraud from 2002?

"A grandstanding act at Le Pore's meeting, that really has no relation to the task at hand."

That was awful. Truly mean, nasty, counterproductive grandstanding which will do nothing but make a clever promo for a movie.

Why is she keeping this evidence "close to the vest"? What is the point of that exactly? If she actually has REAL evidence of voter fraud anywhere, there are many Democrats/progressive people with deep pockets that would pour money into further investigation. Additionally, if there was real evidence of voter fraud, and I am talking verifiable evidence here not some of the fantastic suppositions and nonsensical analysis I've seen posted lately right here on DU, why not give it to Rainbow/Push or Howard Dean or the NAACP or the DNC...or hell, the FBI.

I am not going out on a limb here when I say that I am convinced that Bev Harris has nothing, zilch, nada, zero proof of voter fraud. You will never see any evidence from her, because she doesn't have any. For those who want to believe, go ahead, but your getting suckered.

Imajika

[neohippie]

132. Even if there is never any proof of Fraud, we need election reform

There is plenty of evidence that e-voting is a bad idea, that was executed very poorly, lacking any real accountability, and if we can change that we will all be better off, because we will once again be able to have faith in our elections.

I think Bev Harris has been a champion of this issue and deserves to be treated with some courtesy here.

I also think that if a public servant is retiring from public office in a public ceremony then they might not get the kind of public response that they would like. You do the public a dis-service by performing your job at a level slightly above incompetence then you might expect something like that to happen. I wouldn't be crying too many tears for Theresa Le Pore

[Kelvin Mace]

145. Excuse me?

I think Bev Harris has been a champion of this issue and deserves to be treated with some courtesy here.

Why are we expected to treat Bev with courtesy, but she is permitted to viciously attack us?

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Sperk]

109. WooHoo! All I did was ask a simple question, went to work and the

thread has grown 3 long! This is wonderful....just like Thanksgiving dinner with the family! :bounce:
Agree or disagree.....I think you guys are all great.....at least we're THINKING and trying to make sense of our world.....unlike my co-workers who spent their lunch hour debating the Peterson verdict. :eyes:

I'm so glad to be part of this community....even when we fight. :-):

[Broken Acorn]

112. Fighting only makes us stronger

And sometimes we need to eat our own just like the Repubs (just kidding).

;)

[tbuddha]

124. LOL...the Peterson verdict huh?

Sometimes I feel like we are all in our own world. Maybe we need to all get together and have a party.

Then take over the world.

[Broken Acorn]

133. I'm starting to view Bev

as being in the same category as Jeff Fisher. Smoke and mirrors.

If there is evidence of something, don't you think we would have seen it by now?

[Name removed]

138. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kelvin Mace]

141. This accusation is

getting VERY old.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Broken Acorn]

142. Thanks for the rude response Penguin

I would shit on Rove if I had the chance to. And he's not a genius, he's a liar.

[ElementaryPenguin]

148. If you're not a paid Rove operative - and you seriously believe...

Bev Harris is in Florida filing lawsuits and conducting fraud audits in order to get rich off contributions through her website, then you are simply very uninformed - or a major league FOOL!!

:wtf:
:crazy:

Sorry to be so blunt, but the woman is a true patriot who is working her ass off for all of us!

[Kelvin Mace]

149. Now Ducks and TBuddah are asking Skinner

to shut down the discussion. I guess the heat is getting to hot for some folks.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Elad]

151. Continue here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x105705