no DNC cavalry, i'm afraid....

[whalerider55]

the "for what it's worth department"; division of kindling wood

spoke tonite with a member of the financial mgt team of the Demo Convention, 2004.

took the opportunity to ask them whether Kerry was gonna take a real stand on this recount thing in Ohio.

They told me no, that Kerry and his people remain convinced that the numbers aren't there to turn it around. There is apparently no understanding or recognition that this has to do with people being disenfranchised, they won't take a stand. They cashed in early, and that there is nothing that this person is aware of from inside the Kerry camp that would lead them to believe that Kerry's folks are at all serious about getting involved here. Just token effort to set up 2008.

This source also told me that most of the DNC types are still seething with anger that Kerry held back $15,000,000 as a head start on 2008; that the party apparatchniks are astonished that with everything that was at stake he would leave anything on the table. The decision to "pass out the cash" once it was discovered was a clumsy back-pedal. Even though he and we were screwed out of the Presidency in 2004, he has severely damaged himself for '08, leaving the impression that he wasn't willing to put the pedal to the metal in '04 (resurrecting the "timidity" straw man)

Let me say that I was and remain a supporter of John Kerry for president. I'd still like to see him be president.

I don't mind "getting his back," but while i'm watching his back, he apparently slipped out the front door.

I suspected this all along, although it was only a suspicion until now.

Take it for what it is worth. This is now, as it has been since election day, in the hands of the people. In some ways, that is where it belongs; i like the irony of that. I prefer to frame this as a fight for the right of a single voter to cast their ballot.

More comfortable ground for me.

Oh, and the Kerry folks, and the DNC folks in general, don't get it that the unwillingness to fight for every last vote to be counted, regardless of how it turns out, will cost them big next time around.

whalerider55
i'll take a little dose of activism with reality tonite, dearie

[Child_Of_Isis]

1. 2008?

If this voting fraud isn't stopped, it will never matter who runs. And if it is in the hands of the people as you say, and the people themselves have to go it alone, then I say the people need to form their own party.

[Higans]

99. The only way to break out of this rubix cube:

The most important discovery in Human History.
The elections are rigged. All of them are.
They don't even count paperless votes. They have trapped your Voice inside a computer. The only way to break their stupid game is to write in "peace" on paper ballots and make them count them in front of you.
Do this in every election and only Humans can be the winner.
We don't care who the puppet is, we care that the puppet is peaceful.
Send this message to every Human. Ever Man, Woman, and Child.
Send this message to your Grand Children.
This is the only way Humans will ever have peace.
We must be allowed to ask for it. Every Human wants peace.
Never again give your voice to a computer that doesn't count your vote.
Don't let them take your voice away from you.
This is the most important piece of information ever discovered.
This information can set all humans Free.
Never let your technology fool you again.
Never let them divide you into Red, or Blue, or Black, or White, or Cristian, or Jew, or Muslim, or Hindu, or Pagan, or Conservative, or Liberal.
None of the issues they talk about are important enough to let them prevent you from voting for peace.
Demand Paper Ballots. demand they be counted.
Never let them steal your voice again.

[Imajika]

2. The DNC will not be riding in...

..because there are not enough outstanding votes for Kerry to change the election. Kerry was quite correct to concede - he and his team knew he wasn't going to win and did what every other Presidential candidate has done when it was clear that they lost.

I don't really worry about the 15 million left unspent. Though I don't really know much about this subject, I'd speculate that the Kerry campaign was probably raising more money than they had expected, and that they simply hadn't prepared to spend the additional money. A campaign does not just throw money at any idea or project. These things are planned and built into part of an overall strategy, the fact that funds remained is really not a big deal in the grand scheme of things - at least in my view.

I considered Kerry the best of the 04' primary candidates and ten trillion times better than Bush, and I stand by that. Kerry made me proud, and I'd support him again going forward whether that be for another campaign or for any other project.

Imajika

[whalerider55]

5. i appreciate your response

the "but" is that with no one in the Democratic Universe of any substance (and i use that term guardedly) willing the frame this as an argument for protecting enfranchisement,and willing to step out on the line to protect that right, it doen't matter who you support in 2008. If they aren't a republican, they won't win.

the lesson 0f 2000.
of 2002.
of 2004.

if the votes aren't counted, if the votes are misplaced, how the heck do you know if Kerry didn't have the votes to win.

i admire your faith in Kerry.

but i'd like your response to the issue i raised- how do you win an election when your votes are willfully misrouted from the ballot box to the Board of election.

me, i think i'd have a better chance supporting Mickey Mouse in 2008. The way i figure it, America has a better sense of humor than it does of the value the constitutional guarantees.

whalerider55

short, but pungent tonite

[carolinalady]

12. The whole electoral process needs to be standardized

and secure. This is where we must focus. This is what the 527's need to focus their energy on NOW before 2006. Get this fixed then haggle over who the next Dem candidate should be otherwise it will always be "Diebold's guy."

[genieroze]

94. I said it before and I'll say it again.

either they stop this fraud NOW, this year or in 2008 we can run Jesus and he would lose.

[Niche]

102. Wasn't Mickey Mouse on the ballot in the 70s?

Mickey is in bed with the r now... Please Kerry fight! I love him but i'm exhausted, really, really exhausted...

[Heewack]

6. Post of the day.

Well said! I too am a supporter of John F. Kerry! The attacks that have been levied against him here the past month have been hard to stomach.

[whalerider55]

11. heewack

you consider my post an attack against Kerry?
take pepto bismol.

i am reporting on a conversation i had tonite that may shed light on what the situation is. I trust my source, and have no reason to doubt them. Nor do I have any desire to turn anyone's stomach, set up a flame fight, piss people off.

I have been voting for John Kerry since 1982. I have met the man, briefed him, and worked on a project with his staff. I respect his intelligence, his integrity, and his courage.

that being said, the point of my e-mail is that the crucial issue of this election is enfranchisement. this isn't anymore about kerry, it is about the value we place on democracy. apparently, the people willing to go out on a limb for it now that the election is over are GLibs, Ralph Nader, Bev Harris, Wayne Madsen, Keith Olbermann...

notice the lack of elected democratic leaders on that list. if you have one, i'd love to hear it and i'll e-mail them tmrw thanking them.

if the votes can't be counted, no real election can take place.

elections are a delusion then, an exercise in fraud and deceit.
i want my vote counted, i want to know it will be counted. who i vote for then becomes my business.

it should matter to someone that a vote should be counted. leadership.

and if i do decide to trash-talk John Kerry, you'll know it, believe me.
whalerider55

[marions ghost]

38. Your post brings up several thoughts...but reform is key

My old dad (78)voted for Kerry, said sadly after the selection, "well, I guess I just have to vote Republican next time, cause I want my guy to WIN." He saw the future immediately on Nov 3, just like the rest of us, with dire implications.

As u say, whalerider--"the crucial issue of this election is enfranchisement."

You also put it that we should " frame this as a fight for the right of a single voter to cast their ballot."

Yes yes and yes. Everything else is secondary.

-------------
QUESTION -- after what JK went through...ruthless shredding for many months, which he fought valiantly I think--but after that--is it realistic to expect that he would jump feet first into this fray? Only to end up Gored? Remember he does have a job still. And if he's looking to 08 with the rest of the Dem pack, then this needs to be fixed asap! Or be well on the way.

IT IS WE WHO HAVE A MANDATE NOW--to get this mess out in the open and get some solutions happening.
And then John Kerry, Greens, Dems, George Soros, Bill Gates, Hollywood, Europe, Ukrainians, Canadians--anybody else can come along and support this Herculean effort...

THIS JOB IS SO BIG it will need a total focus. All the Dems have other serious topics on their plates. The Dems have gotten into a boxed-in situation, for whatever reason. They can't initiate it, but they will support it.

WE have the power on this I think. We have numbers. What we need is organization. We need an executive, or several. Advertise. Pay them. Get consultants. Get lawyers. Get lobbyists. Create a strong national organization based only around one issue--voting reform--encompassing ALL the multiple ways that disenfranchisement occurs in this country. Multi-pronged. Run it on an enlightened business model. Network with all the smaller efforts operating locally and help them raise money. Those who could lead this effort ARE out there. We only need $1 from half of the Kerry voters to get this going.

Oops --did I lapse into fantasyland? Well it's just that I see plenty of people upset about this. They don't know what to do. They feel powerless. If they had something very solid to support, they would. I'm looking for a creative solution. I don't think it can come from within govt. Too far gone. Maybe it's too radical, but I want to see a big network, a big organization to come into this vacuum, big enough to have some clout. We have to pull together, not lose this momentum. MANY have had their eyes opened now.

Oh well, fantasies will often keep you going... BUT I STILL
feel this is a watershed moment, and if we can get anywhere with reforming the voting system, it would have profound effects. We're talking about no longer accepting corruption, no longer accepting suppression, no longer accepting incompetence, no longer accepting malfunctions and auditless elections. A whole new world.

[bunny planet]

39. How do you know the DNC has any idea what Kerry is planning ?

Maybe he doesn't trust them all that much and has plans in the works independent of them. Is that even a possibility? Honestly, I hear so many differing opinions on this topic, from JK is a traitor to 'he's got our back', my head is spinning. I guess I have to head over to the 'I believe' thread for another visit tonight before beddy bye.

Ciao

[BlueCaliDem]

57. Good Point. The DNC/DLC Are Separate From the Kerry/Edwards...

...Campaign.

Just because "Democratic" is in their title, doesn't mean they are one and the same as the Kerry/Edwards Campaign, right?

I mean, we shouldn't forget, that although they "backed" Kerry/Edwards, they launched ads separate from the Kerry/Edwards Campaign, so in all truth, they are a separate entity, and therefore, should JFK and JE decide to work under the radar on a recount, or whatever other legal projects they may be working on, this no longer needs to include the DNC/DLC that have rolled over for Bush no matter the disturbingly rising reports of election fraud 2004.

[Heewack]

53. whalerider

I wasn't specifically referencing your conversation, and I apologize if it came across that way. I was more speaking to the tone around here since the election where if Kerry isn't doing what some people think he ought to be doing he is labeled as a quitter, or whatever label you want to come up with. He is doing what he thinks is best, and it is up to us to do what we think is best, but I would rather not start eating our own in the process. The problems we face with voting in this country aren't going away overnight. I know passions are intense right now, but this is something that will take a long concerted effort and getting all pissed at Kerry isn't going to further the cause, IMO.

[Pirate Smile]

63. There is Conyers and some House elected Dem's who will be holding

their Hearings and sent a kick ass letter to Blackwell.

[Calvinist Basset]

7. Gosh darn it!

Why doesn't someone who has connections with Kerry drive it into his head--and into others: fraud took place. It doesn't matter if there "weren't enough votes to turn the election around." If fraud occured, that casts doubt on the whole kit and caboodle--and a full audit needs to take place.

Maybe there weren't enough votes--but can we be sure, if we know that *at least some* fraud took place? It only stands to reason that if we know of some, even more was likely there.

[AntiFascist]

42. Impeachment proceedings....

If some of the fraud allegations come to light this could very easily turn into an impeachment issue, making the Watergate burglery seem like small potatoes. If Bush and Co. end up getting impeached, there should be no problem electing a Democrat in 2008, and justice will be served. Maybe Kerry is being wise.

[saracat]

43. We don't have the votes.

We control neither House nor Senate and have a Republican VP. Impeachment is not an option.

[AntiFascist]

49. Not with the current impeachment campaign....

but as soon as something glaring comes to light in relation to what Madsen claims to be uncovering then moderate Republicans will have no choice but to distance themselves from the president, otherwise they can kiss their careers goodbye as well.

[saracat]

50. Yeah. Right. Why would they be kissing their careers goodbye?

Like you think the media will report anything about this? And anyone is going to listen to Madsen, a conspiracy theorist? Please. If Lying to the nation , treason, depriving us of our civil liberties, approval of torture, an illegal war , a bankrupt economy and forced drugging of our children don't do it what makes you think a stolen election will make the cut?

[AntiFascist]

51. Perhaps it will be the straw that breaks the camel's back?

There are plenty of excuses to be used by them for lying to the nation and going to war with Iraq, and many Democrats are equally guilty, or at least gullible. People are apparently willing to let their civil liberties be deprived, at least temporarilly, during a time of war. The war would be considered illegal in international court, but no foreign entities are complaining very loudly at the moment. The economy is not yet bankrupt, although I've just read that certain analysts are now concerned that Asia will start getting rid of U.S. investments. Forced drugging of children is a new issue that may be catching some attention.

Corruption of a presidential election is an offense that few will stand for once there is direct evidence linking the White House. The same thing that happened to Nixon will ultimately happen to Bush if we can get to the bottom of this, whether or not Democrats are in control of any branch of the government. People should and will take democracy seriously once they see that it is being threatened.

Call me naive (and knowing you, you probably will) but I'm not ready to write off Madsen as a just another conspiracy theorist. I believe his ties to the NSA and his involvement with EPIC mean something substantial. He could be telling us the whole truth and nothing but the truth, but no journalist would ever be brave enough to touch this without substantial evidence, and therein lies the problem. Who is going to put their lives or their livelihood at risk to begin proving this? I think the answer is: the foreign media and the good people here at DU who are helping to do research.

[saracat]

56. No Anti Fascist. I don't think you are naive. I think you have more faith

in the American public than I do.But I must say your thoughtful and well reasoned post has given me the first gilmmer of hope that I have felt in days! Thank you for a great post!

[AntiFascist]

58. Thank you Saracat!!!

As a kid I lived through the Watergate era, and I remember what a painfully slow process it was to build a case against Richard Nixon. It does require tenacity.

[saracat]

62. Me too. But I fear this is worse. Watergate was as much about politics as

it was an abuse of power. This is about the death of democracy. Scary stuff and it seems few acknowledge it!

[KerryReallyWon]

72. I know a good friend of Kerry's...

I know that JK never stopped fighting! I was told to tell my people they can't quit! JK is aware of all the fraud, he knows the fraud took out his best friend Max Cleland in Georgia, he knows Bev Harris. He is aware of all of it. He cannot be public with the moves he is making. This much I was given to share two weeks after the election. He said every vote would be counted and counted accurately. I believe him. A week and a half ago, he said he spoke to JK, and he said he did not sound like a man defeated, and his voice was focused and forceful. That is what I was given for the masses. That is all he would tell me. I told him people are coming unglued, give me something to tell the people. They can't take this much longer. He said to stay tuned! This is all I have to report.

[RevCheesehead]

75. Deep in my heart, I want what you say to be true!!!

Because all this talk of Kerry "rolling over" just doesn't match the man I came to know in the campaign!

I'm pretty optimistic, but also have been called gullible. So if you are truthful, I believe you. If you are not - I have no way of knowing. (sorry for the suspicious thought - there have been a LOT of "trolls" on the boards in the last few weeks - and I need to be careful.)

With all that being said,
THANK YOU FOR THAT MESSAGE!!! :)

[noclonyofthechimp]

89. Thank you for this! He is holding his cards close to his vest for a

reason. It's the silence that is killing us...but there HAS to be a reason for it. You have to look at this man's history and actions. he is NOT afraid to go up against the masses...he is just very very strategic about it. I still believe.

[flyarm]

91. just think of this!!

every single person who is or has been working on this recount.has said the same exact thing...we don't intend to over turn this election, we just want every vote to be counted...folks...thats a talking point..every single person involved with all of this has said the exact same words almost...they have all repeated almost the same mantra...its a talking point!!!

( and what i just wrote is not their exact words..just and example..so dont hold me to what they actually have said word for word)

[saracat]

95. I would agree he is fighting but fighting where? I see he is fighting

to represent us in the Senate and is fighting for the votes to be counted, but is he fighting to claim the presidency? That is the real question.

[newyawker99]

97. Hi KerryReallyWon!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[saracat]

3. I think you are 99 and 3/4 ths % correct..

But I have talked to some Kerry people too, and am aware that Kerry is not necessarily in lockstep with this thinking. There is a little thought that he is trying to have it both ways, appeasing the left and pandering to the moderates. But there is also thinking that it might be neither. Kerry has been rebelling against the DNC. They weren't thrilled he gave the money to the Washington recount. Notice they haven't ponied up yet, and he gave the DNC most of the leftover money. He even coughed up an additional 13 million recently. Also leading DLCers weren't happy with his vote on the omnibus bill. He didn't vote with them on it.Another act of rebellion. They are really upset about the video he sent too. So we wait. Is he a rebel? I hope so.

[whalerider55]

9. sara

i live in Kerry's state- and the rap on him here, whether accuarate or not, isn't that he's a flip flopper, or that his positions are thoughtful and nunaced (no to the former, yes to the latter)... it's that he is often timid and tends to try to have it both ways.

i just think this is not the time for that. you're in or out- you can't be sorta kinda... leadership is needed.

whalerider55

[saracat]

10. Yeah. I agree. That is why I am hoping for the rebel!

[Pirate Smile]

64. OMG, what a disconnect. They are pissed about everything we liked.

Why did they not want him to give money to the WA recount?

Thank God he voted against the omnibus bill.

His video was awesome.

Rebelling against the DLC is a good plan for him, I would say.

[Broken Acorn]

4. What? No Shadow Government

which Kerry has developed since Nov. 2?

[whalerider55]

8. yes yes

and if he didn't, the Dem National should.

i strongly support this idea...

Dean at shadow Health and Wlefare
Clark at shadow Defence
Biden as shadow Sec'y of State

fill in the blanks- organized, expereinced, and immediate rersponse to every insane act of the second illegal, immoral * admin

whalerider55

[righteous1]

13. Alright i'll probably get my nads handed to me but here goes

I am getting a bit sick of hearing "count every vote", "we must make sure that every vote is counted" I'ts like a bad elevator tune that i can't get out of my head. It's relentless and irritating. Bullsh!^ I want to win, plain and simple. I refuse to be a hypocrit, i don't care about all the votes, i care about votes that will help my man. Frankly, if JK would have won by 10 votes I'd be happy as a clam and say well boys it's over let's go home. But he didn't, and so I'm fighting for every Kerry vote i can find. I guess i am not noble, or ideologically pure or even maybe all that fair, I just want my man in. If counting every vote was my concern, I wouldn't care who's votes they were....Bush or Kerry I would want them all counted, hence a recount in WI, PA, MI. But i don't I want my guys votes counted. Go ahead call me what you will, I know i'll never be a true idealist the intellectually high minded progressive that people look up to. But I will be honest with myself, I will not break the 11th commandment(thou shall not sh!^ thyself) and no one will be able to rightly call me a hypocrit. Ok now that I got that off my chest, have at me

[whalerider55]

14. well expressed

and a perfectly acceptable POV, to me at any rate.

i think that i want the votes all counted because.... that means the fraud will become more evident; if not the methodology of fraud will become clearer so that next time we can credibly anticipate.

i also think that counting every vote would help dems downticket- senate, congress, etc.

I don't see it as ideological purity- or as a mtter of that.
i want to frame what has happened in a way that will ebgin to make sense even to the less informed brothers and sisters living in the welfare states- if your vote can be erased, it may not make much difference now, when the horse you rode into town with is crapping on the constitution; but, if the rapture don't come first, karma will... and you'll not like the way the universe corrects itself.

enlightened self-interest.

whalerider55

[KatieB]

16. If you don't care about your vote- don't vote - but i want mine counted

[saracat]

44. I am as immature as you are!

And I don't give a sh-t about being idealistic either. And I've posted it before. The ends justify the means. I don't care "how" we win but that we do. If we have to cheat ,that s okay with me! Nothing wrong with voting the dead in the days of the Daly machine. We are too "rightous" (Sorry!) and need a little more of that kind of thinking!:evilgrin:

[illuminaughty]

54. No I will not handle your nads, but if what you say is what you

truly feel, than you have to have more people in mind than just a Kerry win. We are talking turnover of Senate seats, Governor's races, congressmen, and not just 2004 but before this.

Wouldn't it be deliciously fun to expose a whole party cheating to maintain there power in Congress and the executive branch? And if we do something noble along the way, good. But they have to be brought down and this is going to be the method we've been waiting for.

It's good to speak your mind...it means you're not a fuckin' zombie like so much of this nation.

[KatieB]

15. Perhaps we should wait and see what Kerry tells us himself

[whalerider55]

18. KatieB

i fear the meter's running...

actually, Kerry needs to only say one thing that will make me proud and hopeful about the election process in america- in january, when members of congress, including one from Massachusetts, John Olver, stand up in the well of the senate and ask for a senator to support their petition not to certify the electoral voting until there has been a thorough investigation, kerry (or all 45 democrats in the senate)0 can say:

"we rise in support of this petition."
boom.
just like that.

whalerider55

[KatieB]

22. Nothing would make me prouder if that happened

[Niche]

103. Second that!!! Beautiful! Beautiful!

[GettysbergII]

17. Done with the DNC

Hey Whalerider,

Here's one inner city public school teacher that's done with the Democratic Party in its current manifestation. I've no more time for this wishy washy BS. We (public school teachers) bite the bullet supporting Kerry when he continued to support NCLB. I got two kids with one about to be draft age and another to follow four years later and I will not support the Oil Wars one minute longer. I got a ninety year old mother and a mentally ill sister that need fair medicare legislation. Hearing this crapola that Kerry and the Dems did the 'wise' thing by conceding just burns my ass.

To me the wise thing would have been to scream bloody murder about the electronic voting machine being in the hands of the right wing companies before the election, the wise thing would have been to accuse FOX news and rest of the right wing owned media of bias through out the campaign, the wise thing would have been to expose the NCLB legislation for exactly what it is, a law intentionally designed to bust the teachers union, destroy the public education system, and privatize schools as a $350 billion/year market. The wise thing to me would be to expose a Religious Right whose elite considers democracy a heresy and wants to return the country to the Old Testament Law of Moses. To me the wise thing to do is to just start telling the truth but the Democratic Party is so ingrown and insnared with the designs of the ruling class that it long since has ceased to represent the will of the common man.

We've begun organizing in our community. We'll work with anybody for common goals but before there's one more dollar, one more drop of sweat, one more tear or one more vote spent in behalf of the Democratic Party they will have to show me a whole hell of a lot more than they'd have of late. And even then it will be on a case by case basis, supporting only men and women with spines.

[whalerider55]

19. well-put

i am actually a long-time member of the dem party, genetic democrat, and elected green public official- the local school board.

so i know about NCLB- and the secret little tidbits like allowing military recruiters into middle schools and high schools or you lose your federal $$$

there are groups starting to organize around common, community-based issues. find them, work with them, as you are doing.

that is the hope i see out there. and there is a lot of it.
my great sadness is that the dem party doesn't realize how much anger there is among the electorate- not because the election was stolen, but because they will not do a frickin' thing about it.

whalerider55

[GettysbergII]

24. I didn't know that tidbit but it figures

so i know about NCLB- and the secret little tidbits like allowing military recruiters into middle schools and high schools or you lose your federal $$$

Sneaky SOBs. I'm in Chicago, birthplace of the ASC, and Mayor Daly, whose acting more and more like a republican each year, is pushing a proposal to actually turn one of our community HS into a military academy with the military in charge of it completely, a military charter school so to speak. The utter unmitigated gall just never ceases to amaze me.

[bobbieinok]

27. HOW CAN THEY NOT SEE THIS!!!!!!!!!

my son, who IMO is pretty apolitical, knows all about the election problems--not from me--and is extremely upset about the whole mess

he says many of his friends of both parties are also concerned

what this tells me is that there is a trememdous number of upset people who know about this and are rapidly losing whatever confidence they had in 'fair elections'

this is very dangerous for the future of a democratic society

the democratic party local and national need to talk to 'real people'

[GettysbergII]

31. Absolutely!!

You know it would take just 6 months of a Dem lead full court boycott of sponsers of biased news shows and I guarantee the whores that own the networks would quit whistling Dixie

[SueZhope]

20. AMEN

[KatieB]

I've gone straight to the candidates for that reason

Dean's Democracy for America has stayed true the entire election. DNC seems polluted. I send my money straight to the candidates now. That way I'm assured they get the use of it. Dean's whole point is that each of us bears responsibility to do just what you're doing. Taking the power back yourself and participating. Showing others they can do it. Now we just need to demand that our votes count!

[GettysbergII]

26. So far Dean's about the only one...

That's not on my shitlist. Maybe Feingold too but he needs to stand up and contest first.

[whalerider55]

29. i like feingold

except for one vote...

"I thought Ashcroft deserved the chance to serve as AG."

he may have forgotten, but it's hard for me to. he was the deciding vote.

then again, maybe i've outgrown being a one-issue voter

whalerider55

[GettysbergII]

30. Umm Ashcroft, huh.

Damn wish Feingold had voted for the dead guy instead like they did in Missouri.

[KatieB]

21. Calvalry arrives

Kerry Campaign Keeping Eye on Ohio Cases

31 minutes ago
Add to My Yahoo! Politics - AP

By JOHN McCARTHY, Associated Press Writer

COLUMBUS, Ohio - John Kerry (news - web sites)'s campaign has joined a lawsuit by third-party presidential candidates seeking a recount in Ohio. A lawyer for the campaign said Thursday the campaign does not question the Democrat's loss but wants any counting to take place statewide.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20041...

[whalerider55]

28. katie

i think this isn't a new story, although the link doesn't (or didn't) work. i heard they were joining cobb's effort for a recount in one county, perhaps they have expanded that desire now to go statewide.

that would be great.

of course, here's my but...(or my butt, as it were)
Kerry has allegedly had 17,000 lawyers at work on election fraud since moments after the election. now, with a couple of days to go before electoral certification happens in ohio and other states, he joins one suit, already begun several weeks ago?

it does kinda seem, uhhh, a little minimal to me.

i respect your hope, and will keep a freedom candle burning in the window.

whalerider55

[KatieB]

60. Kerry Camp Joins Suit over Ohio Votes

Hmmm. Interesting.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/03/politics/03recount.html?oref=login

December 3, 2004
Kerry Camp Joins Suit Over Ohio Votes
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

OLUMBUS, Ohio, Dec. 2 (AP) - Senator John Kerry's campaign organization has joined a lawsuit by third-party presidential candidates seeking a recount in Ohio. A lawyer for the organization said on Thursday that it did not question Mr. Kerry's loss but wanted any counting to take place statewide.

The lawsuit that the campaign joined this week was filed by Green and Libertarian Party candidates seeking a recount of the vote in Delaware County. A judge in that county issued a restraining order blocking that request, but the order expired on Thursday. A hearing is set in federal court in Columbus on Friday on the recount request.

"The Kerry-Edwards campaign felt it had to intervene," said Daniel Hoffheimer, a Cincinnati lawyer who represents the campaign in Ohio. "We did not want a recount to go forward if it only was 87 counties." The state has 88 counties.

The two minor parties have also asked for a statewide recount, but a judge ruled that cannot begin until Secretary of State J. Kenneth Blackwell certifies the vote, probably on Monday.

The Kerry campaign is not disputing the outcome of race in Ohio - which President Bush won by a 136,000-vote margin, based on unofficial results - but wants to make sure any recount is "done accurately and completely," Mr. Hoffheimer said.

[drummer55]

23. A note on the DNC

If they do not contest this selection I urge everyone to demand every single red cent that was donated to them. They govern by our consent and if they will not listen to us I say Bankrupt the bastards and move over to the green party where it seems that they have an idea of what American Values are about.

[GettysbergII]

25. Absolutely if they don't contest....

There's just another company to boycott as far as I can see. Maybe take them to small claims court for fraud too.

[cilla4progress]

32. Really appreciate this thread

This is one of the most reasoned, intelligent, balanced discussions I've read recently on du. Thanks to all.

Yah, I feel like I'm on a rollercoaster, with the revelations, conspiracy theories, late-breaking headlines and developments on this site since the election. I keep passing through the living room telling my husband, "we're on on the verge of a breakthrough with the voter fraud..really, this time...". Even now - I don't know if I'm going to wake up to a 9-11 like paradigm shift in the morning, where I'm hearing Bush is about to be booted and Kerry is lining up his cabinet, or if it's going to be more of the same downward spiral. I fear the latter.

It is so rare that people, much less governments and institutions, are willing or capable of making great change. I truly believe this election was stolen, if not through cloak and dagger, through the time-tested, pervasive, classist measures, like plenty of voting machines and no waiting lines in the suburbs, to the extreme opposite in the cities.

I thought I was going to wake up on election morning to "and the people have spoken." Although I still believe I did, it clearly wasn't enough. We do need leaders. Leaders willing to take chances. Leaders who will remind and nag us to bear out the promise of our country. I guess we just aren't yet ready.

I am taking solace in the MLK Jr. quote on MoveOn's site the day after the election: "The arc of history is long, but it bends toward justice."

Maybe not in our day, but hopefully in our children's, or our children's children.

Amen.

[ahyums]

33. don't be so sure it won't be in our day, our day may be longer than you

think


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4003063.stm

[cilla4progress]

34. Thanks for the note of humor! n/t

[whalerider55]

35. i agree

you've put it very well.

i once saw a first nation quote about how we must treat the land as if it would matter not just to us, but to the seventh generation to come. Another new idea in green planning is to address development issues not in five-year or ten-year plans, but to allow for fifty year plans- to somehow get our ego out of the process and allow us to think about what it will look like after we are gone.

we need leaders. we can take steps today that will make a difference.

thank you for your eloquence.

whalerider55

[proudbluestater]

36. I'm kind of ambivalent about the whole issue of the DNC

Do you notice the lack of media coverage? Of course. But do you also notice that things are progressing JUST FINE with out the DNC and John Kerry speaking out frequently? Without widespread MSM coverage? Can you imagine the screams from the right-wingnuts if our "little movement for Democracy" got widespread coverage and was condoned by Kerry and the DNC?

While I have personally bitched about Kerry to myself quite frequently, when I take a step back and look at the big picture, I don't see a huge problem here.

They are, in essence, giving the power back to the PEOPLE, where it justifiably belongs.

I don't think, when all is said and done, we want to listen to the Limbaugh, Hannity and Coulter types whine that "Kerry stole it from us." No, let them know the truth, THE AMERICAN PEOPLE GOT FED UP WITH THE BS and took their country back themselves. Of course we have tons of help, but it's not from the high-profile operatives, just ordinary people who aren't that well publicized.

Can anybody see my point? Hope so!

[bones_7672]

52. Please define "things are progressing JUST FINE"

The Ohio election will be certified on Monday, there is nothing that has arisen that will stop Bush's inauguration on Jan. 20th. All that has been done to challenge the election has not made a dent in any state, and Congress will not interfere with the electors, and so far no court will go near this with a ten-foot pole.

[proudbluestater]

96. The election needs to be certified before recounts can start

and I know of at least two lawsuits being filed in Ohio, without the help on John Kerry or the DNC.

Next election, I give only to the candidate him/herself. No DNC.

[Lerkfish]

37. sure, I'd like to win, but MORE IMPORTANT is the security of voting

until that is re-acquired, no amount of campaigning will ever work. As long as voter disenfranchisement, intimidation, fraud and what have you remain uncontested, we no longer have free elections.

Anyone who does not feel that is a priority to rectify, NO MATTER WHAT PARTY THEY BELONG TO, is not an american, or in case that's too strongly state, is not truly interested in fair government.

making elections fair has become my new moral imperative issue. It transcends individual candidates, and yes, that includes Kerry.

[Gyre]

40. They're gonna find their piggybank empty come 2008

Dumbshits.

Gyre

[Carolab]

41. This is why I was encouraging everyone to TAKE IT LOCAL

You have local representatives and Democratic Party boards.

Tomorrow night ours is having an open session, the first of a series. I intend to hold forth and to take to them a SIGNED petition/demand that the Democratic party officials in our state stand with the grassroots on investigating the fraud in this election and push the national party members to do the same.

PUSH IT.

People don't seem to "get it". THEY AREN'T SUPPOSED TO TELL US WHAT TO DO. IT'S THE OTHER WAY AROUND. THEY REPRESENT US. WE DON'T REPRESENT THEM. AND IF THEY DON'T LIKE IT THE HELL WITH THE DNC FOREVER.

PUSH IT!

[GetTheRightVote]

45. I am with you, push it

"The arc of history is long, but it bends toward justice." MLK, Jr.

[senegal1]

47. This so far is my favorite thread. The reason why I think it is

ultra important to deal with this vote fraud issue now is that I have lived overseas for a number of years in countries where I have watched egoistic (I dare say evil) people play nationalist fervor to divide and conquer nations (and kill large numbers of people). Voting fraud eventually played a large part in the final steps of taking total power. I don't accuse the Bush government of that by any means. However I see some things are seriously amiss and certainly our country is moving toward the polarization that reminds me of several countries. This worries me significantly. I know that the majority of Americans can hardly believe that something so vile and dare I say "third world" could happen in the US but then we are forward looking people who have little grasp of our own history. That is part of our glory and also part of our downfall -- history can not teach us. Anyways I digress. Although some people may be tired of hearing "count every vote" I for one still believe this is the most fundamental and important issue of our day. Kerry or no Kerry -- Bush or not.

[myschkin]

61. put pressure on the DNC

"I intend to hold forth and to take to them a SIGNED petition/demand that the Democratic party officials in our state stand with the grassroots on investigating the fraud in this election and push the national party members to do the same.

PUSH IT.

People don't seem to "get it". THEY AREN'T SUPPOSED TO TELL US WHAT TO DO. IT'S THE OTHER WAY AROUND. THEY REPRESENT US. WE DON'T REPRESENT THEM. AND IF THEY DON'T LIKE IT THE HELL WITH THE DNC FOREVER."


Well said. Everybody has to put pressure on the DNC, write them what you think and feel. Because AT THE MOMENT they don't know that they loose so much voters...

[Eloriel]

46. Absolutely validates what I knew in my heart and

have been trying to tell DUers who've been wishin' and hopin' and pinning all their hopes on a Kerry save.

Unfortunately, reading it, seeing it laid right out there in all its stark nakedness, still puts a thud in my heart, and *I* wasn't countin' on NUTHIN' from our self-serving candidate, Mr. Electable.

[pointsoflight]

48. We do have the Ohio dems and House dems, though.

[cilla4progress]

55. DNC v. Greens, etcs.

Notwithstanding Nader's poor judgment in the '00 Pres. election, I have been seriously considering going Green. I am conflicted about this, because of the perceived lack of a chance of ever getting one elected, but it would be voting my conscience.

What are others thinking about this?

[whalerider55]

65. cilla

i am a green elected official. i would be happy to share thoughts about this and electability and coalition-building; track me down through DU e-mail.

whalerider55

[mbee]

59. They are working beneath the surface to see what is there

and, if something big turns up, guess what? Kerry goes to the White House! Plain and simple!

[whalerider55]

66. and if nothing "big" turns up....

(please define big) thenthe democrastic party has been willing to allow the intimidation, suppression and discounting of millions of votes, because they don't add up to enough to send JK to the white house.

maybe i have unrealistic expectations about those elected to constitutional offices like the senate. i thought they took an oath to preserve, protect and defend" the constitution.

i'd love kerry in the white house. but if the dems don't stand up for enfranchisement, a ten million vote overage won't win the white house- and they'll just get Cleland-ed in every coming election until people get sick of getting screwed.

and then, maybe the dems will be an option for them.
just doesn't seem right to me. the dems should be a choice because they are right on the issues, compassionate, defenders of the constitution... not because they are the only alternative.

whalerider55

[smartvoter]

68. I agree, and this is probably an unpopular view, but...

JK doesn't need his Senate seat. If there's an upside to running the ultra-wealthy, it's that they can tear heaven and earth apart and do just fine. I really hoped we had that in Kerry.

[buddysmellgood]

67. The problem with that strategy, is that if no "fraud" turns up, the

damage to Kerry is done. He is seen as someone who didn't fight for democracy. Why would anyone ever vote for him again under a broken voting system knowing he won't fight tooth and nail. He's preserving his position and career in the senate. Good for him. What we need is a champion to fight for free and fair elections. He has very little time left to be that person.

[m.standridge]

81. little to lose

from him doing so right now.
So many people aren't aware of the threat to democracy right now.
The GOP has control of all three branches, and has since 2000. That's never happened before. All three branches.
The three branches are supposed to check each other, but this isn't effective without a two-party system.
With one party controlling all three, that evaporates pretty quickly.
Now, too, Bush has all kinds of "emergency" powers, including the GOP's beloved surveillance. (They love to surveil people, don't they?)
WE may not have any real chance for another real election if the Democrats don't win back control of one branch this time. The Executive seems the only realistic branch at this point. With that foot in the door, we could do more for democracy. But we need two parties, not just one, running everything. Or we're a toothless tiger, a castrate, impotent and helpless before the funded GOP with full media influence.
The vaunted "fourth estate" has disappeared except for the Internet.
Meanwhile, the DLC is worried about making a bad impression and the DNC is worried about Kerry keeping money. I can understand both viewpoints, but we simply don't have the luxury of all this backbiting right now.
Look: Nixon not only went after McGovern. He went after Ted Kennedy and George Wallace, too. The ruthlessness of his campaign, is still reflected in W's campaign against people like McCain. Those two mysterious plane crashes in MN and MO in pivotal races that would've given the Democrats control of the Senate--and one branch.
The GOP was afraid of that, don't you see.
So get in.

[buddysmellgood]

90. I think we agree. But there is little advantage to Kerry making noise now.

It would just wake the republican smear machine. Timing is important here. We need to prove fraud before this somehow gets to the Supreme Court. But at some point, whether the outcome would change or not, he needs to stand up and point to the absurdity of the vote in Ohio. It's clear to me that all of these "anomolies" cannot be explained. I don't think the republicans will even try. They have nothing to gain by trying. To let all of this slide in hopes of a chance next time is to cede democracy.
I will fight against anyone who takes that route. This is "next time."

[Jack Bone]

69. I once took an oath to...

support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic....

Just as Sen. Kerry and countless veterans have done...

I just don't see him, or any of us going back on that oath..ever!

[whalerider55]

70. no intention

to be disrespectful; sorry if it seemed that way.

i understand what you are saying. i just haven't seen JK and the party leadership- some of whom are vets, all of whom are veteran politicians leading the charge to protect enfranchisement.

and lord help us if their calculation is that its a losing cause...

whalerider55

[Pepper32]

71. How does Kerry think he will win in 2008?

If he doesn't step up now he can forget about 2008! I sincerely hope he reconsiders his position. Maybe Liebold is promising a Kerry win in 2008. If he doesn't truly stand for every vote being counted, he stands for nothing. Show us you meant the promise you made John.

[whalerider55]

73. yuck

that train of thought gives me the heebie jeebies...

all that yale skull and bones stuff...

if you really want to get creeped google skull and bones... its the only place in the world where bush and kerry cross paths...

yucko eewwwww

whalerider55

[Pepper32]

74. Yeah, I know

I looked that up before I voted for Kerry. I really want to believe that skull & bones is NOT why Kerry is accepting defeat, although he actually won. Just thinking about it makes me ill.

[peacetalksforall]

76. Two extremely troubling points....

Money

You would think that the budget for the money that was raked in for the campaign would have allotted a certain amount for lawsuits - lawyers, courts, counties. Please ask the financial mgmt team member about it.

The phrase - "if they don't find fraud".

Why not put that in legalese -

There were disenfranchisements, roadblocks, minority blocks, lies and tricks in abundance - in addition to hardware, software, code, laptops, modems, counters, tapes.

So which is meant when it is said "if they don't find fraud"?

Tell me one simple thing - what is Kerry going to say to the person who couldn't vote because he/she was lied to about the precinct to go to or - to go away from? The person who was lied to about registration, missing name, provisionals, and that beauty - the sickeningly sick feminine ethereal ruling about the weight of the paper?.

From what we can see and based on reason - Kerry and Edwards are probably purposely lying low with lawyers in action. If not, it will mean that Gore fought harder for the country than Kerry and Teresa. And if there isn't a fight going on below the surface...John and Elizabeth Edwards are also liars.

I believe in a non-public discovery and time to build a case. We can only hope.

If a DA can bring a circumstantial case to court, why can't a politician bring a circumstantial case and get those subpoenas out there for gruelings under oath - selectively. but in addition to total state recounts?.

[whalerider55]

77. good points

my understanding is that money was allotted for all of that in a seperate contingency fund set up K/E... and with 13 mil floating around (which i understand was above and beyond the contingency fund) there shouldn't be any problems about the $$$ to file anywhere.

your point about what K/E say to the voters who were disenfranchised makes the point better than I have, i think. we are talking about the very right that makes us different than all of the countries we have a beef with- NKorea, Iran, Iraq, Syria, ad nauseum... a constitutional right to vote anbnd have the vote counted as cast.

and is it legalese, or just timid-ese? i'm getting tired of parsing the nuances and looking for whether Kerry raised his eyebrows enough in a video. I want to see Liebermans face on tv screaming about enfranchisement, and evan bayh, and Leahy anmd biden and Daschle and Cleland and Kohl and Kennedy... and kerry. I want all 45 dem sens toi back the house petition in january toi investigate and not certify the results.

my hat is off to you. well thought out post

whalerider55

[JunkYardDogg]

78. It's so much easier to capitulate than fight

If the NeoCon/Dominionists get away with this now,
America will NEVER again have an Honest election
This isn't about wether Kerry will win, now,
it's about the whole Fooundation and survival of American Democracy

[m.standridge]

79. DNC, DLC and NV recount money; Iowa; AR, CO, NM, too

They were trying desperately to recount NV, to get it investigated. They have a case. There's a lot of evidence. The state wanted $346,000 almost overnight. The 3rd parties couldn't muster it. THe DNC/DLC could, easily, out of Kerry's leftover money.
Iowa: Why isn't anyone even TALKING about Iowa? It was closer than Ohio and there were plenty of glitches and delays. I've been suspicious for a while, and the exit poll thing applies to IA, as well.
Meanwhile, Iowa, NM and NV = 269 Electoral votes for Kerry, 269 Bush--would tie it up.
I'm trying to find something here in AR. It got really close here. AR and FL were the two southern states where Kerry sometimes led Bush. Bush seldom got above 50% in pre-election polls in AR, FL, NC, VA and LA.
24 hours before the election, Clinton started campaigning for Kerry here in AR. The polls started tying up dramatically. Our local CBS tv affiliate reported a "48 to 48% race by 1 p.m. 11/2. The previous day's SurveyUSA poll showed a graph with Kerry on steep upward climb from 46.47%, with Bush on a decline from 50.81%. With Clinton actively campaigning for him, the gap between anti-Vietnam war Demos and Kerry's disabled vet backers started to close. Kerry began to pick up support among women here, in the last 24 hours as a result of Clinton campaigning for him and pulling anti-Vietnam war women to Kerry from "undecided" and 'non likely" voters.
The state website was still updating today, because there were glaring differences between county tallies and what the state had--in one race, a statewide US House race, there were over 50,000 votes difference, just between two counties and the state. They weren't even looking at the Presidential, but my gut tells me there's something dramatically wrong there, and would benefit Kerry.
CO was also very close, wtih nine Electoral votes. They had to take a long time to count Boulder County, with glitches and mysteriously high unregistered voter counts. Some think they had the same kind of bogus registration drive they were trying to investigate in Nevada, that the judge refused to work on in dismissing the NV case against the Electors.
Again:
NM 5 + NV 5 + CO 9 = 19 + 252 = 271 Electoral votes
NM 5 + IA 7 + AR 6 = 18 + 252 = 270 Electoral votes
NM 5 + IA 7 + C0 9 = 21 + 252 = 283 Electoral votes

They're also still looking at Florida, even though there's no exit poll stuff from AR, FL, or CO, insofar as the states turning around versus the exit polls. One set of pre-election polls, though, suggests Kerry was carrying OH, IA, AR, FL, NM, NV, & CO, as well as what he's been credited for as of now.
I'm trying to find things in AR. I have no resources. There's nothing on the DU Site here, no thread about a recount. I have nothing on paper. Just a lot of odds and ends pertaining to Undervotes--there are 7909 here this year; and Over-votes: I haven't done a tally on those yet, but they are listed by county at the Sec'y of State's website.
There were thousands--probably more overvotes than undervotes, but overvotes are also less "productive" insofar as producing actual valid ballots.
The other thing, is to try to see if there are any stories or complaints about bogus registration drives here. Any workers coming forward to and admitting tearing up Democratic registrations as they did in NV. And I'd like to see how closely the 50,000+ vote thing in the two counties, panned out vis a vis the Presidential. And also how much effect the power failure in West Little Rock had on election day. West Little Rock area most directly affected by that power failure was relatively heavily Jewish, and Pulaski County, LR's county, is a Democratic-leaning county.
I've read elsewhere about Demo votes being put into third party tabulations. I'm trying to see if that's happened, too.
One thing I've noted, is smaller totals in a couple of counties, at LATER dates instead of at earlier dates. In other words, the overall county totals were larger, at later dates, than at earlier ones. I'm told that could be suspicious in some way, but don't see enough in the way of numbers to overcome Bush's 102,000 vote lead. Undervotes would probably bring only about 1000 votes to Kerry, or less. Overvotes would bring only one or two. This county thing, I don't know how well that would correlate to the Presidential, but even if all 50,000 that were in play were Kerry votes, that's still not enough. If the three or four county tallies I saw that seem to show larger amounts of votes on earlier dates were to pan out, all that together could force Bush's lead down by over 65,000 votes from 102,000.
That would leave 37,000. Did the power failure in LR, which the media reported tied up traffic and also forced the shutdown of two or three of the west LR polling places for hours on election day, affect the vote? Did it cause computer glitches or errors? Did anything start counting backwards? Or did some Diebold people have to go in and 'fix" the computers in those precincts? The system was online--did the power failure cut into the quality of figures online?
And what about variances in rural tallies, such as how well Kerry was doing in rural Stone County, versus apparently more urban areas?
Kerry picked up hundreds of votes in NW AR on these later tallies today (12/3) versus what he'd had on 11/17 originally. Why? NW AR is usually strongly GOP. If Kerry could pick up more votes there, is it not possible that a closer look in more Demo-oriented precincts would garner him more votes?
Of course, "close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades" I know. But how close? Did it turn around?
Democratic Leadership Council wants to carp about the NE Liberals. That was ok before, but w/GOP in control of all three branches of federal gov't again, after four already, and with Homeland Seucrity/Patriot Act/Line Item Veto/Drug War/black ops CIA Bush family/big federal deficits and no one in Congress to investigate a GOP chief Exec, we need help, we need success in winning one branch now. I'm no NE Lib, either. I'm an Arkie WASP. And I'm spooked about this that's going on right now. Under cover of "national security" Bush is moving toward dictatorial status.
Five Senate races seem too many to look at, but I'd do it if the money was there. There are questions about the Oklahoma, South Dakota, Alaska and Florida Senate races.
There's money there, still in the Kerry till. Planning for next time, with whatever candidate, may be unrealistic. There may be no real next time. We need to win now. Even if Kerry wins Electoral only, it might still work out ok for Hillary as the 2008 candidate. There'd be a foot in the door. W/o that, she may have no chance, either. Maybe the DLC and the Conservatives might want to think about that. Bush's extraordinary powers, vague as they are, could be used to destroy her chances if there's no wing for the Democrats to start with. This has never happened before--one party controlling all three branches. WE came close in 1934 under FDR when he tried to "pack" the court, and shortly after Watergate, but it didn't last and didn't succeed. The GOP has made this last four years--now looking like at least 6, with Bush Electoral only the first time, and now with spooky, vague "emergency powers" and a fishy 9/11 that a GOP congress won't investigate. Food for thought for conservatives: where are your tax dollars going?
The Presidential seems the simplest and most realistic at this point. But the media isn't giving us a correct impression and neither are pollsters vis a vis their own data.

[m.standridge]

80. Correction: the EARLIER tallies were larger

NOT the LATER ones. That's when it might be "suspicious"
IA 7 + NM 5 + CO 9 = 273, not 283.
Throw in AR and NV, that's 14 more. Throw in FL and OH, that's 47 more.
Oddly, Kerry could carry all those, and still trail Bush mightily in the Popular vote! First Democrat to win in the Electoral College only? There's no law that says it has to always be a Republican that wins that way. At least, not yet.

[Helga Scow Stern]

82. You ought to post this in the voting issues forum.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=201

[m.standridge]

83. OK-- and you know

I've never been someone who maintained AR was ever close in these other elections in the past when it went to GOP candidates. AR is a typical Southern state, but Clinton does have an impact here and the political dynamic this year was different, too, because AR, WV and VA have about the highest disabled vet pops and Kerry was doing well w/ them in polls.
2000 was a little closer here than official, but Gore didn't carry it, though he did well in the eastern part. He asked Clinton not to campaign for him, even here in AR.
But this time, Clinton came in for Kerry, last minute,after the heart surgery: too late for exit polls to pick up on it, but it was in the statewide media and you could see it tightening up. And there's all this electronic stuff and the exit poll glitches. Usually AR was a tie this time in the polls. Bush was only in the lead in 7 of 16 polls, and even in most of those leads, he was at a Plurality. I haven't seen a GOP candidate stay in pluralities like this in the South in a long time.

[whalerider55]

86. thanks

for all your work...

the dems response to these issues raises a lot of questions... uncomfortable ones.

the context for all these questions, remember, is that this is the third phony election in four years- what have we and the party learned- i remember vaguely that Kerry's people were clear pre-election that they had set aside money and lawyers for this possibility (they should have been talking about eventuality).

your point about the downticket potential is a very important one.

i personally believe we won this election. i don't know if i'm pissed more at the possibility that we believe we won and the dem infrastructure doesn't or that they know we won and won't challenge it publicaly for fear of being marginalized.

like it could get worse thamn it is.
like * and the repugs haven't ALREADY talked about rulechanges and going "nucular" over judges....

sheesh

whalerider55

[cheqia]

84. no dnc calvary 'I AM TERRIFIED!'

I so agree with you 'whalerider55' so I have a question. I have been searching the internet for all those who feel like me that there is a dictator in the white house 'cheney' and his puppet bush. but where are the protests in the streets, where are the peace marches, where are all those democrats in office hiding out because i do not see any of this and and it sickens me that every one of us in just sitting back and accepting the thievery that is our election. i read the messages posted and while i read about some disgust i don't read anything about getting millions and marching to the white house because we were ripped off. disenfranchised my eye. i don't understand why we have to wait till 2008. can you imagine if the blacks had waited.

[whalerider55]

87. cheqia

i think because of our size, and the nature of the sep of states and feds, we are slow to organize coherently around issues. it took years for the environmental movement, the anti-war moment and the civil rights movement to gain steam, although i'd argue for the urgency of this issue because it really impacts all three of those larger concerns.

and ultimately it took leadership to push those issues. leadership in government, Senators and COngresspeople, governors who were tired of dumps, and leadership in the clerical community.

hard as it is for me to admit this, (and i may have the sequence lightly wrong) even Dick Nixon understood the momentum of the environment movement by creating the EPA after earth day.

Don't consider that an argument for redemption.

Find those leaders...
the Dean's and Cobbs, the Wellstones, the Lowell Weickers and Warren Rudmans, the Jesse Jacksons and the people will organize. and here's a hint- understansd that their positions will be more reflective of larger goals and less likely to privilege vested interests in the status quo.

just my utopian two cents- that and $3.75 will get you a latte at Star*ucks.

whalerider55

[newyawker99]

98. Hi cheqia!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[EFerrari]

85. Dear John

I would have supported a bowling ball against MendacityCentral. So, please don't be disturbed if I'm more concerned about our vote than I am concerned where you plunk your money.

This year, I ignored my prinicples and voted Dem. Never again. Never again do I want to wake up with an ass in my bed, like some new millenium Titania.

So, count your treasure while we fight to get our vote counted. Hope you have really intriguing hobbies because you just ended your political adventures.

love,
America

[whalerider55]

88. oh no

i fear this is the first of many "Dear John" letters...

and on a personal note-

Midsummer is my favorite of all shakespeare plays. you can find something in it to reflectr just about any situation you need to comment on= kind of like an all-purpose Bartletts's Quotations in one slim volume...

whalerider55

[TayTay]

92. There is another way to think about this

I am also a Masshole and longtime voter for Kerry. I think there is another way to think about getting the Dems nationally to fight for fair elections in which every vote counts.

Sometimes politicians just don't see a problem the way activists who were there when it happens do. Sad, but true. I think this is the case with Kerry. He has his professional folks telling him that he ain't gonna win, no matter what and that he could be tarnished for going about it in the wrong way. Some of the theories about election fraud are still theories, not proven entities. (Precisely because these are difficult things to document. Notice I did not say that fraud didn't happen. I did say that definitive proof is not yet there.)

Mr. Kerry has, at least to my longtime observations, several buttons that sort of make him, as a politician, tick. He has always been something of a loner (which works for him and against him) and he seems to enjoy taking up tasks that benefit the underdog. I believe that the loner side is responsible for the recent web video in which he is trying to do an end run around the Dem establishment and take a relevency case directly to the voters. Fair enough, I liked this. Why not return the favor?

Okay, Big Guy, I'll see your Health Care petition, and let me raise you $100 on a Senate inquiry on fair elections. If you can get a petition from the people on one, then perhaps we can get a petition on the other. Then you start some hearings. This two-way interaction with the electorate is interesting, but it has to be two-way. The idea of fair elections is the ultimate underdog issue. (Kerry likes underdog issues. It's one of his things, why he is in public office instead of chasing down big money in private practice or on Wall St. Again, part of what makes him tick.) The hearings will be small because he is part of the opposition or minority party and funding is going to be a problem. But, done the right way, it's a win-win. Democrats get someone to seriously, with that fabled prosecutorial zeal, take on a core issue of the utmost importance. Kerry rehabs some of his reputation, because he does has standing if fraud was perpetrated against his run for the WH. Dems get a made-in-heaven issue about how they are fighting for the little guy. Everybody wins. And I think the press will like it. Fair voting is an easily understood concept (but how the voting got screwed up is not easy to fit in a 2 minute TV spot, it needs serious work.)

Granted this is never easy. But I don't see the electile disfunction issue as going away once all the electoral college votes are counted. Far from it. This is one of those issues that will simmer until the next election and never go away. I want to find a realpolitik way of getting it addressed, loudly and publicly, so no one else has to wait 9 hours in line to vote. (A national, repeat, national disgrace.) Kerry and Kennedy are my duly elected reps to the Senate, I want to apply pressure to achieve my ends in a meaningful way that works for these guys as well. I promise to show up and give cover and support so nobody looks like a loon and has their proverbial ass left out to twist in the wind.

Thoughts? (Besides, I'm naive and a newbie. Maybe somebody else already came up with this? My mother wears army boots?)

[genieroze]

93. 2008? He better not hold his breath.

I switch parties to the Greens if he runs in 2008.

[roseBudd]

100. The problem with suppressed and disenfranchised votes is we cannot

count them because they were never cast. Just like we couldn't get back all those mistaken Pat Buchanan votes in 2000. The only maybe is the 93,000 ballots that registered no presidential vote or an overvote. The lawyer Cliff Arnebeck is in the best position to discover and litigate. I agree with the DNC and Kerry letting others discover and investigate from a public relations standpoint.

That said right NOW we at DU CAN just like the mean girls in highschool start a whisper campaign against the chimp's reputation. How you ask? By using guerilla and viral marketing techniques. That means using unconventional means of delivering a message that creates buzz, ie viral marketing.

Do this:

download the file below and got to Kinkos and make copies.

BUSH CHEATED is color but can be printed and
photocopied B&W to save $$$. They print 2 to a sheet, so you will have to cut them

http://somnamblst.tripod.com/fraud.pdf



Use the BUSH CHEATED to flyer cars or even BETTER...

Buy a can of 3M Super 77 spray adhesive from staples and glue the BUSH CHEATED graphic to metal utility poles, bus stop shelters, advertising benchs, newspaper racks etc. let your inner anarchist express itself. If enough people do this then the masses will become aware AND just like highschool Bush's reputation will be ruined.

[IndyOp]

101. Don't WAIT for them - PUSH them...

It matters a lot that the truth comes out -- recounts are necessary -- whether or not Kerry takes office.

Call the DCCC Monday at [phone].

Democratic Leadership Council & Progressive Policy Institute
DLC Phone: [phone]
PPI Phone: [phone]
DLC Fax: [phone]
PPI Fax: [phone]
email: http://www.ndol.org/cobrand/contact_us.cfm

Democratic National Committee
Phone: [phone]
email: http://www.democrats.org/contact /