Discuss Keith Olbermann and Bev Harris in this thread. #5

[Elad]

For reference:

Keith Olberman's blog: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6210240

Bev Harris's response: http://www.blackboxvoting.org

All participants should be careful to avoid personal attacks. We are still enforcing the message board rules on this issue and we will take appropriate action.

[Broken Acorn]

1. Sorry to say

but I think we should all take what Bev/BBV says from now on with a grain of salt.

Hopefully she won't sue me for libel for posting this.

[rodeodance]

5. I enjoyed KO's show tonight

After just reading his blog for today--much of what he said on the show was in the blog also.

[tbuddha]

13. do what you want I guess

Bev would say, "It is what it is". You are trying to flip the election, that is not her objective though. She told me she is solely going after election fraud county by county. she has proof in Volusia (not enough to flip the election) and she is pursuing the right way through the courts. Is she worried about media attention? Not at all. She called them this morning to bitch at them, not to ask to be put on the show.

I think a lot of folks are upset with her because THEY wanted to see her on Olbermann. If that's the case, write him and ask him to reconsider.
I like Keith myself, but I thought he was little irresponsible last night and am not gonna consider begging him when it won't make a difference anyway. Besides, he's got Ohio to cover for now.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

Aren't buddhist suppose to questions things?

instead of following things blindly

[tbuddha]

18. I've talked to her...have you?

I think you are more blind on this issue than me

[ProudToBeLiberal]

20. you didn't answer my question

and to naswer your question, no I didn't talk to her, not for lack of trying either. PM me her phone number.

[demobabe]

31. PR people don't call members of the media to bitch at them

This is considered unprofessional and is also cutting off your life's blood in the industry.

Bev got an engraved invitation from KO last night; there is no reason she should not go on that show and show her evidence. It's not even a hostile show like O'Reilly... KO is on OUR SIDE, and I'm sure he'd do everything possible to promote what Bev is doing as long as she puts her money where her mouth is: show us the tapes.

[Ducks In A Row]

77. She's never get anything from keith but grief

and keith's producers need to act like professionals in the future

[Maddy McCall]

113. They do when they are off of their meds.

:silly:

[texpatriot2004]

128. You're right, he gave her an engraved invitation and he's on

our side. She blew it. She did it to herself. Her behavior is completely unprofessional and immature. What, does she not want to be on television? She has hurt her credibility and this cause.

[vanboggie]

157. Moving my money then

I donated more to Bev than the Greens. No more. She may still be doing great and noble things and I appreciate that, but giving up this kind of visibility on the election fraud issue seems like a major mistake at this stage of the game.

[Winamericaback]

41. Your quote:

"BTW, she threatened a libel suit for lying about her n his blog last night."


Look I don't have enough knowledge about what is going on to make a reasoned decision and quite frankly neither do you.
You can't take one side of a story and then quote it as fact.

What I WILL say is that threatening is UNCALLED FOR, adults just don't do that. They talk in a well reasoned manner. If she threated KO then I want my damn money back. As her effort might be lovely but her actions are deplorable.

Do I believe she threatened him? Yes I do because I have seen her fly off the handle right here on DU when things could have been handled in a much calmer fashion. She has the right to defend her "trade name" but come on cease and desist orders? Give me a break.

I'm not choosing sides here. Because I don't know the facts. Geez my mistake was thinking only freepers jumped on things without substancial evidence..

[Kelvin Mace]

53. Moment, please

She has the right to defend her "trade name" but come on cease and desist orders?

She can't trademark what she doesn't own.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Winamericaback]

99. Very good point n/t

[Name removed]

145. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[saracat]

64. Keith is not the one who was irresponsible. BTW

did I call it or what? Bad PR. You guys need help if you are to continue. You won't be able to get any exposure unless you fix this. You will be branded as "difficult" and no one in the media will work with you. You won't be worth the aggravation to them!

[texpatriot2004]

134. and the perception will be that she has no credibility, she

will be like some lone ranger crazy tin foil hat wearin' lunatic fringe that nobody will touch with a ten foot pole. What the heck was she thinking? Saracat is right. If this doesn't get fixed, it's a dead issue. People won't believe her or get behind her...not enough of them anyway and time is of the essence. This will be used against her by media folks who are NOT on her side, or on the side of covering this issue, like Keith Olbermann is.

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ducks In A Row]

81. Bev's busy at the moment, really fighting fraud

not pretending to like Keith Olbermann

[Maddy McCall]

88. Nope she isn't.

I know something. :-)

[texpatriot2004]

135. Everyone is friggin' busy, that is such a worn out excuse where

she is concerned.

[texpatriot2004]

136. and even if she is, you have to manage the public relations n/t

[Ducks In A Row]

74. I agree

and look foward to hearing about the court cases in Florida.

[Kelvin Mace]

47. She never sues

just threatens to.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[saracat]

67. Is she the same about the voter fraud lawsuits? No follow through?

Just wondering.

[Kelvin Mace]

75. She did the qui tam

and that didn't amount to much, but she was roped into it by Lowell Finley and Jim March who needed Bev's findings.

But as far as libel suits, she's threatened at least a dozen people I know and never followed through.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[saracat]

94. What about these lawsuits on the vote she is supposedly filing or filed?

And sorry to be stupid but what is qui tam?

[Kelvin Mace]

160. a suit on behalf

of the government. You can collect 15%-30% of what is recoverd from the suit.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[DubyaSux]

164. She's on track...

....for 30%, isn't she?

Since she's on her own with it now, she personally gets the max amount. I though that was the only way she could get everything.

I thought is was somewhere around $12 million she could get if she succeeds. Or a lot less (but still in the millions) if they settle with her too.

I could be wrong though...

[demobabe]

115. From what I can tell, the Qui Tam isn't completely over

From what I read in the newspapers, it looks like Bev Harris and Jim March still have to go to court for them to decide on their cut plus lawyer's fees.

So it looks like they still have up to a potential $780,000 coming their way.

[saracat]

142. What is Qui Tam?

[Ducks In A Row]

85. because the people threatening her not-for-profit status back off

[Maddy McCall]

139. You know, if you actually had anything substantial to say,,,

people might listen to you, but you don't. You are just repeating the same old thing, over and over again. The sad thing is, it's just not logical.

The three words "clean up crew" are NOT licensed by Bev--they are in the common lexicon. She's full of shit. You bought it, hook line and sinker. Once again, she was afraid someone would steal the thunder that she considered hers. The way she has treated DUers from Day 1 has been appalling.

Karma's a bitch, though, isn't it.

[EarlG]

153. Correction

Actually, we didn't back off when Bev threatened DU with lawsuits for "threatening her not-for-profit status."

Instead we asked her to stop sending messages to our members and our moderators telling them that she would sue DU, and contact us directly if she wished to take legal action. She subsequently stopped posting lawsuit threats on the message board, did not respond to us regarding this issue, and we never heard from her lawyers.

[JohnnyCougar]

159. Well, I guess that settles that, then.

Bev was just having a temper tantrum then. Big surprise.

I guess it's over now though. I'm glad I sent my money to other sources.

[Kelvin Mace]

176. how typical of her

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Kelvin Mace]

166. Hardly

[NJ_Lib]

2. I think I would like to hear from Bev...

... before I up and crucify her alive... Although my gut tells me Keith's story has a ring of truth to it, I like to hear both sides of the story before I call someone a "fake" or a "phony"...

Why the hell would Bev call up Countdown with this kind of attitude? Belligerent? Threatening? Demanding? Hmmm... Something had to set her off...

Just because a handful of long-time DU members say she's a fraud, does not make it so... Especially when I know of at least one of them who is a big phony themselves...

My point? It's good to hear both sides before judging someone...

Now, if it turns out after I hear all the facts, that I feel Bev was just yanking our chain...? God help her... I WILL sue her in court to recover my donations... I'll lose, but it will be well worth it...

My internal jury is still out...

[carolinalady]

10. she posted her side earlier but I don't have link ---sry n/t

[texpatriot2004]

143. she posted, she bashed Keith again and reprimanded DU

people for their confusion on the tapes. She said nothing about her mistake. She didn't give any explanation for why she has chosen to handle this issue this way. She made some remark about we're getting close and that's the end of the post.

[tbuddha]

17. I can get you her number if you'd like...

She was mad this morning about his blog entry last night. She thought it was libelous and to some degree it was. Though I think she coulda had a cooler head, she is human. I mighta blown my top too.

Was she "belligerent"? I wouldn't say that. I can get loud and cuss at times but from talking to her she is no where near that. She sounds like a nice 50 year old lady who was upset about her character being attacked, but not yelling. If Keith wants to see belligerent, he should look at FOX News.

[cry baby]

26. So Bev is OK with getting 100 phone calls

from DU'ers? I don't think so - let's leave her to the work we need her to do.

Stop offering everyone her phone number!

[tbuddha]

30. I wouldn't give it out unless they called me first

and so far no one has had the balls to call me.

[pleiku52cab]

50. send me

your number -- [e-mail]

[tbuddha]

32. lol...like I'm the gatekeeper...nt

[cry baby]

36. I am the keymaster...lol

[crispini]

56. C'mon, send pleiku your number.

You've been wanting to talk to someone all night.

[demobabe]

40. No libel there from what I can tell

And I checked my AP Style and Libel Guide.

[Kelvin Mace]

59. It happened all the time

Why the hell would Bev call up Countdown with this kind of attitude? Belligerent? Threatening? Demanding?

When she decides you have become the enemy, she will lay into you like piranah at a sushi bar.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[NJ_Lib]

133. What would make her view KO as the "enemy"

... what could have happened in a few short weeks to get to this point? None of us really know... We have a lot of "he-said, she-said" but you know from your own personal life how THAT goes... What do they say, there's your side, my side and the truth?...

I realize you personally may know things about Bev from your past experiences with her which lead you to your current feelings about her... But me personally and many other new DUers haven't had those experiences so we must give her the benefit of the doubt... My policy is not to judge anyone before I have the facts. They have to show me they can't be trusted and at this point, losing your temper, and choosing to not yet "show your hand" is not enough for me to label her a "fraud"...

[Kelvin Mace]

162. Simply disagreeing with her is enough

In KO's case, his post yesterday made him the enemy. Bev will NEVER forgive a public slight.

I started conversations with her with her praising me and within five minutes I was being screamed at.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Name removed]

87. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LoZoccolo]

3. Maddy McCall, they thought we were freaks or FReepers yesterday, now look!

I am actually surprised she went off like she did this morning - but it looks like it showed a lot of people that we need some redundancy in this movement so that it doesn't all come down to one's person's way of dealing with people.

I'd love for someone to be leading the BBV movement who can steer more skillfully. I so wish we didn't even have to have these threads.

[Maddy McCall]

93. That was my fear all along.

I knew that, just when it was about to break, Bev would break instead.

She's nuts. We should have had someone sane like David lead this.

[tbuddha]

4. In response to 124...they HAVE both been unprofessional

But if you were in the spotlight the way they are, you would get your criticism too. I know I would. I would have been way more off the hook than Bev. I HATE it when people lie about me, even on accident.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

7. i know what you mean, Bev should stop talking around the fringe.

[high density]

11. Where did you come from?

I mean I haven't been here at DU for that long at all, but you have been here for an even shorter period than me. I just find it bizarre that you suddenly find this message board and post lots of "Bev Harris is great, I just talked to her" comments while offering no proof to actually show what the hell she's up to.

Right now I'm glad that I never sent any money to BBV given the way that team is acting and the over-the-top secrecy. It's simply not professional and it must be very alarming to the folks who did send in cash. It's also very harmful to getting the reform and coverage of the overall voting issues that need serious attention in this country. One of our main spokespeople (only spokesperson?) for the issue can not be a person who has a serious problem dealing with TV news producers.

[tbuddha]

27. I am new here but have followed Bev's site for over a year

The whole issue of Black Box Voting goes way back for me. I remember when the site was in it's infant stage. There is actually a lot more info on that site that DU hasn't even touched on. Unfortunately, a few days after the election when those of us on there really started to put things together it got hacked like crazy. People couldn't get on, we were getting weird error messages. Whole chunks got taken off the site. Now the updates are in a folder at the bottom.

She is doing what she set out to do, and what she HAS been doing, which is investigate voter fraud. She found evidence in Volusia, started a suit, and is now moving onto other things.

[high density]

44. Most of us would appreciate seeing some of that evidence at this point

All of these endless "breaking" stories and "it's ready to break wide open!" stuff is turning out to be bullshit. I feel like I'm watching ShopAtHome TV at 4am in the morning and some hyper salesman is trying to sell me overpriced gold coins.

[carolinalady]

60. Hey! I just got a great deal on a Cannon mini digital recorder

tonight! First time I ever bought anything on TV. (Except the Ding King but I got it at CVS after I saw it on TV!)

[high density]

70. lol, OK

Congrats! I didn't mean to bash TV shoppers, I just am very skeptical of those guys who sell the coins in the wee early morning hours. :)

[carolinalady]

79. Just a little levity--like I said I am not a TV shopper but son

has been scouting for one for X-mas and found it on one of those channels. I have been following this Bev thing all day and feel really sad that any good she may have been doing has now probably been severely damaged by what appears to be an over inflated ego. I think we need to continue with the stuff we have uncovered and use all of our collective pressure (including the 527's) to force major election reform before 2006.

[crispini]

73. Ok, I'll bite. What's a Ding King? n/t

[carolinalady]

101. Well it's this really handy dandy thing that you can use on your

car to take out small dents in the doors and stuff. It does work just need a little arm muscle. Next on my list is that neat little studfinder with the laser beam that shows the straight line! My husband shudders when I pass the "As seen on TV" store at the mall.

[crispini]

117. I got my dad that! He loves it!

So, do those leather repair kits work? :D

[carolinalady]

130. Now that I don't have. Not much leather in my old age---

that was the pre-children age when I was young and crazy and a hell of a lot thinner. LOL! Nice talking to you- going to bed now have to to get the troops up in the am.

[crispini]

138. Night, night.

And it's a leather COUCH. Not ... um... something else. Hee hee! :D

[Name removed]

98. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Catherine Vincent]

6. Maybe it's time for a Bev Harris/BBV question and answer session on DU.

It's warranted.

[Broken Acorn]

9. Why?

So she can keep telling stories without evidence?

[Ducks In A Row]

92. she did the question and answer and got grief for it

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2777690#2777782

I wouldn't blame her if she never came back here.

[Maddy McCall]

149. One can only hope.

:eyes:

[cry baby]

8. If Bev is going to break her story

and she doesn't trust MSM, who will she break it through?

It looks like she might have burned her bridges with KO and no one else even has a toe in the water regarding this issue.

I want her to do whatever she can to help our democracy, I gave her money to do so. I hope she succeeds soon and without much more drama.

[jmatthan]

12. Hundreds of man/woman hours, for what purpose?

Please get on with the main task at hand - removing Bush from office, proving fraud, getting recounts, done, taking the Republican Party to the courts......

Please divert your energies to the true culprits of the fraud - not infighting. You are geting nowhere with these posts.

For the sake of all of us around the world, please, please, please....

Jacob Matthan
Oulu, Finland

[Broken Acorn]

15. Thanks Jacob

I wonder how many international observers read our discussions, lol.

[mdb]

14. I wouldn't draw any conclusions to this myself until I knew what is meant

by Belligerent? Threatening? and Demanding?. One can raise their voice because they are upset and the person being talked to can feel threatened. So the word threatening is then used. Demanding... well, if she feels they are not being fully truthful I'd demand a retraction myself. Belligerent... well yeah...I'd hate not to be assertive in wanting the truth to be told.

[EFerrari]

19. That was my point, if these two people are professionals

why are they airing their tiffs to a nationally audience? I book talent all the time; am married to a performer. This stuff happens all the time and has nothing to do with national securily, lol, but with bad or unfortunate behavior.

It just clouds the issue, obscures the goal. I asked about Olbermann because he has far more support than Harris does. I don't know either of them.

[KoKo]

16. As a long time DU'er what's sad to me is to see so many posts and threads

devoted to ripping apart Bev/Symbolman/Stranger/BBV/Votegate/Take Back the Media...with all of the folks that have "warts" just like the rest of us having to defend themselves to each other, us and the whore media.

We are having a "cat fight" over nothing. When all of us should be working together...it's fights about ego and hurt feelings from past experiences that mean nothing in the end when we have a Dictator running the country for a possible four more years.

So many good folks here. So much talent...and yet "Turf Wars" triumph over everything...to the extent that Skinner has to come in and tamp down the fires...it's disgusting..

How could we come to this..at this point. Isn't this JUST what those lying criminal thugs wanted? "Let Them EAT THEIR OWN" KKKarl ROVE says...and we just "do it!"

And....WE JUST LOVE IT....sick! :puke:

[Broken Acorn]

21. Maybe

people are so pissed off in here is that if BBV does have vital footage of election fraud they are guarding it for their own purposes, INSTEAD of being used to win the national public opinion.

Imagine millions of Americans sitting down for their 6 o'clock news to see footage of an election official in Florida throwingn away poll tapes and Bev finding them in the garbage.

Do you know how POWERFUL that could be? I'll guess we'll never find out.

Go JJ & the Glibs!

[crispini]

22. IT'S JUST ACTIVISM!

Have NONE of you people ever served on a local board, a volunteer council, your HOA?

Spats, catfights, and power struggles are blindingly, achingly normal!

In fact, I may venture so far as to say that if you want to get involved in politics on a local level at all, GET USED TO IT!

It's human nature.

[KoKo]

29. No..........not from what I've seen from "local government." Where are

you? Where I am and what I've been involved in it's always "back room deals with the power structure" and "compromise."

I AM AN ACTIVIST....I'm probably way to the left of DU on most issues...yet way to the center on a small few. I'm the one who jumps up at those damned boring "poltical meetings" and says: "Wait a minute here, what about....etc....and get folks looking at me like I have two heads!" Don't tell me about "Activism" we are eating each other alive here because of trolls...long time and new...and folks who are so sincerely angry that they are striking out and being led on by the trolls and "plants" and whatever...

[crispini]

46. It doesn't read like "eating each other alive"

to me, but that's just IMO.

And, wow, I guess you guys are much nicer than we are at those "boring political meetings." We pretty much routinely get shirty, talk over one another, hijack the discussion, and then kiss and make up and go drink at the end of the meeting. They're not boring at all... they're usually high drama, or at least, middle drama.

We are BLINDINGLY productive, though, which would seem counterintuitive, but there it is. We are all totally rabid Type A Democrats who are incredibly focused on accomplishing stuff. Thus, both the conflict AND the productivity.

[KoKo]

151. NC....politics...Precinct/District level....boring.....and "back room." n/

[crispini]

170. I guess NC'ers are nicer than we are then. :) n/t

[tbuddha]

37. yeah, but it doesn't mean you stop trying to get people to quit it

[DubyaSux]

42. It's NOT just activism...

....it's theft.

Where does she get her money? From people here!

I'm afraid to send money to DU because I always feel like I'm a breathe away from banishment when I speak up against her nonsense. But I've been calling her on this stuff for months because nothing she says makes any sense. Almost nobody with a credible interest in evoting problems is hanging their hat on the type of fraud she sells. She's never provided one shred of true no-bullshit evidence of what she's selling exists.

But when I debate her and her servlings, I get reported as a freeper while everybody paying attention sends her cash. And that just tears me up because many don't have that type of cash, but they send what they have. She created the monster they needed and the MSM wanted a peek.

And then she shits on them. All of them. That is not activism.

[crispini]

52. Oh, well, yeah.

I was saying that, this kind of disagreement is common in activism. My point was really directed at those who want us to just shut up and stop discussing it and get over it. I'm not for that.

I don't disagree with you, really.

[NJ_Lib]

121. I sent her money from my UNEMPLOYMENT check...

Single mother, raising a child on my own...

Ya... I'll be pissed... But you know, people do lose their tempers, especially women (duck), doesn't make them a fraud though... Somehow I just trust her... And I'm not the trusting type either... I'm from Jersey, I don't fall for scams easily... This would be worse than a scam because it's not just our money involved here... It's SO much more than that...

I would like her to show us her hand right about now, or even a card would do, but until she gives me better reasons than losing her temper and not showing her hand yet to distrust her, I continue to support her...

[SomthingsGotaGive]

124. I know how you feel.

I see your 100+ posts in over a year and think... there is someone that thinks before he speaks.

Then I see 600+ posts in 14 days and wonder how much stock I should put into someone that posts every thought that comes into their head.

As far a getting banned goes I think you should be OK because I see in the Ask Adim forum the admins are getting tired of people that question Bev being called trolls or freepers.


On This issue Bev has left more questions than answers which is bad.

I have a few give them a try.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=105121&mesg_id=105172


From my detached perspective here in Canada this looks like a classic infiltration of an activist movement.

Perhaps Feds caught wind of the growing BBV community and sent in Bev and her crew to spy on it.....

When she saw that it was rather disorganized, and decentralized, she saw an opportunity to gain a leadership role and did so by co-opting the work amassed here on DU and elsewhere. Then she exploited as many personal contacts as possible to put out a book that launched her into the BBV spotlight.

At which point she seized control of the direction and culture of the debate by discrediting all others involved every chance she was given the access to the media her book awarded.

Now that the BBV movement was directly under federal control off chasing phantoms in a theory real planning of bbv fraud could begin.

Nov 2 Bev and BBV were given a new assignment ....Stall. Obfuscate and most importantly....Run out the clock!

Question #6 from the link I think is the most important question in this debate. It bring the credibility of BBV precariously close to the abyss.


Perhaps Bev was infiltrated by Andy, whose Questionable connections to the DUBIOUS Mr. Vreeland have never been answered.

Andy went so far as claim and post publicly that Vreeland warned him of a nuke attack in the US before the election. (see link)


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=105121&mesg_id=105172



Thanks for listening.

S.

I wish this was

:tinfoilhat:

[high density]

23. Cat fight over "nothing?"

I think this is a very serious issue. Bev Harris has singlehandedly pissed off the only person in the MSM who has the guts to cover this story on a regular basis.

WHERE ARE THE TAPES? They should be released into the public domain and uploaded to archive.org. That site will give them all the bandwidth they need to publish the video for free and get the message out there.

[KoKo]

39. OFGS! Keith Olberman works for NBC! What...are you smoking? You

think you are going to defy YOUR EMPLOYER? Please! It's all about ratings. He was a Sports Caster. He's probably sincere in his efforts...but when the BOSSMAN says...TONE IT DOWN...what do you do, if your used to the money the guy makes...

He's a nice guy...but he works for "Da' Corporatists." Please...You trash Bev over Keith? With what we here on DU know about the Whore Media??? :eyes:

[high density]

48. You can't be watching his show if you call him a whore

And I've linked to this three times today already, but you need to read what this "whore" did during the Monica Lewinsky scandal. It's about two-thirds into his speech: http://www.news.cornell.edu/campus/Olbermann_speech.html

[crispini]

71. Yep, everything I have read about and by Olbermann

makes me completely convinced of his decent humanity.

I love that address, BTW.

[nutsnberries]

144. i hadn't seen that before -

thanks! great speech.

[texpatriot2004]

152. You're right, you can't be watching him and call him that. n/t

[texpatriot2004]

154. BTW Thanks for the speech n/t

[EFerrari]

24. So true.

[LoZoccolo]

25. We're not "eating our own".

We're trying to get a story we're concerned about out, and we don't know why someone's burning a bridge to getting there.

[KoKo]

45. Excuse Me? Is Keith Olberman one of "our own?" Who did the original

reasearch for Bev Harris...who encouraged her...who does she still report back to? Even though she has many folks who are angry with her justifiable (I got into a big fight with Bev once myself) do we owe our loyalty to us who brought her to the Dance or Olberman who comes in like the Handsome Knight in Shining Armour to Rescue us in our Hour of Need.

Please...give me GE/MSNBC/UNIVERSAL on a White Horse...yeah right...and do you watch "Realtity TV??" DUHHHHHHH....

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

34. It's sad Koko, but lots of the acrimony was generated by Bev

I remember when she came to DU (two years ago) I remember that book and ENTIRE PARTS OF IT being written FOR HER on the threads HERE and only AFTER the fact did she even acknowledge she was writing a book (after MAJOR PARTS were written FOR HER BU DU'ers with MORE knowledge on the subject).

It MAY not negate the good she and Andy HAVE done, but it sowed the bad seeds. Same thing with the cigar story...an explanation after the fact. The public pissing matches with David and Roxanne after capitalizing on THEIR labor too.

I also find it curious that we now have two unknown resident BEV experts. Since the movement is NOW dependent on ONE spokesperson..that person can also BRING the whole thing down much the same as she "brought it up."

[saracat]

55. Absolutely right on NSMA

We need a new spokesperson for sure. I'll bore everyone again with the fact this is very bad PR. It is clearly ego driven and damages the credibility of the voter fraud issue.I resent that one person such as this, who might have done good things, can also take it upon herself to destry the issue's credibility. We actually need Keth Olberman more than Bev Harris right now. JMHO.

[KoKo]

100. Well then "stone her to Hell" for all I care...I give up...! Sitting and

nursing wounds, thread after thread on DU isn't going to do a THING FOR US with the media. To hell with Olberman...why is HE the only one...

I'm getting off the Bev stuff. She's no different to me than Michael Moore and frankly her "Votegate" streaming video convinced two Repugs that there was something wrong with this election! One is a relative and one is a friend. One is a fundie Christian I convinced to vote for Kerry against everything he believed in and he was backsliding when Kerry lost and the other voted for Kerry reluctantly. Both of them were pissed at Kerry...Hell I"M PISSED AT KERRY...but Bev's video or whomever Bev convinced to do the video for her opened their eyes to what is wrong with BBVoting. None of the literature I sent them did. They needed VISUALS! I also sent it to a campaign lawyer I got friendly with who really just didn't get how the vote could be manipulated. He was a "Poll Monitor" and said he thought our election here went okay. Until he saw Bev's video he didn't think about what's inside the machine no matter what I tried to tell him.

That's why I support Bev at this point. I don't have to like her, or think she's some kind of hero...I just have to trust that although her instincts are crass to some of us, who like our people honest and pure, we just ain't gonna get "honest and pure" and RESULTS!

Tom DeLay ain't "honest and pure" either ...but he GETS RESULTS. Until we Dems learn that we need to not knock down everyone because they don't live up to our pefect expectations we will be left with the Liebermans, Daschles, Reids, Millers and the rest of the do-nothing DINO Dems who've led us into this Hell Hole!!!

No one is PERFECT and I'm a big Critic myself...always wanting "perfection." But this isn't the time for "perfection." We need street fighters and folks we might not ever respect again...as long as we get results. Whatever she's doing I might not agree with, but lets not focus on her and Olberman...when there are others out there fighting besides them and other issues we should be discussing. :shrug:

[Catherine Vincent]

62. Finally someone mentions the cigar story. I really would like to

hear Bev's explanation for that. I did a search but came up empty handed. Can you tell me why she and others did this?

[Maddy McCall]

69. Yep, I remember that to.

I haven't been involved in this until last week but when the site was flooded with the Bev Briggade attacking anyone who dare even question her, I started speaking up.

And I am SOOOO glad you are here speaking up, too.

[tbuddha]

35. Amen

[americanstranger]

28. I read the first four threads,

and participated in them, and I'm done at this point.

I've been posting here at DU a long time, and it used to be a pretty pleasant experience. That has clearly changed.

As liberals, we are expected to question conventional wisdom, to respect one another's viewpoints, to agree to disagree when necessary. That's always been the way, by and large, here at DU.

That said, things sure have changed.

I have my opinions about Bev Harris, and I've made them known. That used to be permitted here, but now voicing your opinion is no longer allowed. It'll get you branded as 'the enemy' or 'a freeper' or 'on Rove's payroll.'

Pretty depressing, if you think about it.

So I'm done arguing over Bev Harris. Those of you who believe in her, keep hope alive but don't expect too much. Those of you who work with her, good luck and watch your back.

Those of you who accused me of being a freeper... I'll spare you what I really want to say to you. Hint: it has to do with performing a cetain reproductive function.

Back into lurk mode. Knock yourselves out.

-as

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

38. Some of us know you. Hugs.

You're the shits ;-)

[Broken Acorn]

63. Ditto americanstranger

I agree with you whole heartedly and will follow in your footsteps.

Although I am new to DU, I have been extremely active for most of my adult life (27 now). I really don't appreciate people getting all pissy and making comments that I'm a troll/freeper if I disagree with their train of thought.

I was arrested in 99' at the WTO meetings in Seattle while participating in passive demonstrating. I have done so much more for the communities that I have lived in the past 10 years compared to others in my age group that I am embarrassed with my peers lack of activism (or concerns for civic duties).

If people want to ward off my generation for taking a stand on BBV/Bev's inappropriate behavior and hiding her tapes, then fine so be it.

Unless proven otherwise, Bev/BBV should be only acknowldeged when they bring forward something that will help our cause.

[KoKo]

123. I love you guys, Symbolman and Stranger you were the FIRST to take

on the Media Whores for us....What I hate is that you guys are being pitted against Bev and that the wounds are so deep that we can't get over it. I'm no fan of Bev...but I am a fan of you guys...but I will defend Bev on the points I've been trying to all day.

We all have to work together at this point...get over the wounds, the hurts the guts we've left out there...and you guys got dissed and hit in your wallets by what happened to you with her. Still that votergate thing got out there...and it got an audience...

I've passed around what you and Symbolman have done and that has gotten the attention of the two Repugs I managed to turn...but on the voting issue it was Bev's stuff that got them to go further when they were ready to give up on the Dem Party when Kerry conceded. You see both of them like "tough guys" like the chimp..(small letters).

ALL OF YOU ARE IMPORTANT...can't we get over the hurts here...and get this election counted?

There's just too much acrimony and blame that folks are throwing on each other when it goes to the Chimp and our own Party for letting us down...

sorry...I said I wouldn't rant anymore about this...but you guys are great ...and Bev is just Bev...I just wish we could leave it and go on.

[creeksneakers2]

33. Its really nice to see a cable news outlet

Pay so much attention to the lefties on the net. I hope Olberman gets lots of support, even if some object to the conclusions drawn in the coverage. At least they are covering the story.

I was really happy to see MSNBC's rating go up. Tweety has been much better lately. There is a real opportunity for the net lefties to have a strong relationship with a cable network and establish a platform to fight the vast right wing conspiracy.

[EFerrari]

49. Agreed. Olbermann is moving this issue forward

no matter his problems with Harris, no matter his caution. He has an audience that is very loyal. If he suggests this is an important issue, we score.

No, he isn't perfect anymore than Bev is. This isn't a perfect world.

Now, can we PUHlease focus on getting bodies out to Columber on 12/12? You know Katherine Blackwell will force the Electors to vote. That has to be challenged in meat space, to use an unlovely metaphor I learned from a fellow partisan.

[EFerrari]

58. Sorry, that should be "Columbus"

[noamnety]

83. Keith and Bev are both doing great work

I hear lots of people saying Bev owes us the tapes. They already played on one news outlet, it's not like she's guarding them jealously. The bigger point, though, is we have a bunch of people complaining that the entire movement is depending upon her ... and that's just not true.

Anyone can file freedom of information act requests, anyone of us could have chosen to go cross country and devote ourselves to gathering evidence. She's not "the chosen one" with special access that none of us could have. She's a regular person who has decided to go take things into her own hands. And anyone sitting in judgment over her now should go start their own investigation with their own video cameras.

If you haven't been doing that, you have no right to complain about her not doing enough, or being professional enough, or not being quick enough. Go do it how you want it to be done. I'm not saying that to be snippy, I mean it. She does not have a patent on filing FOIA requests, and she can't possibly have enough manpower to do everything as quickly and thoroughly as she wants - go grab yourself a state and get to it, and do a great job, and make the results public.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

43. HERE'S BEV'S CONTACT INFORMATION,

contact her to find out what's going on because most of us are speculating

Contact details
Bev Harris
330 SW 43rd St
PMB K-547
Renton, Washington 98055 USA
Phone [phone]
Fax: [phone]
E-mail:[e-mail]

http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=Bev_Harris

[cry baby]

51. why not just one or two of you call her

those of you who have the knowledge to ask the right questions. Maybe one caller that will ask the tough questions and one caller who is sympathetic to her. Then you 2 could report back to us and give us the real story. Sounds Polyanna-ish, I know.

One question from me - if you don't trust the MSM, who will you go to in order to break your story?

[AmyCrat]

54. LOL two people did that this morning...

and had COMPLETELY different experiences. One was very supportive of what Bev had to say and thought she was calm and reasonable, the other thought Bev was quite rude, raving and egotistical and wanted to separate himself from the whole BBV.org site.

So, while it seems like a good idea, we are never going to get a clear answer.

[saracat]

76. Amycat, Who was she rude to this morning, besides ,apparently Keith's

Exec Producer? I missed that one. BTW great posts today.Clear and logical. Apparently NOT what some want to hear. Sigh. And I noticed earlier, we are both "cats" LOL!;-)

[AmyCrat]

84. Thanks... and I don't remember the person's name

it was someone that posted over at BBV I think, and it was copied over here by someone who knows apparently knows him. I'll try to find the thread, but doing a search on "Bev" isn't too easy today LOL

[AmyCrat]

90. I found them... here's the posts:

Re-Post From BBV Board (dissatisfied caller)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x103617

I Just Talked To Bev (satisfied caller)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x103475

[saracat]

107. Wow! I'll bet he called after she spoke to the producer!

This Lady has a serious ego problem or something else. I am glad she isn't on countdowm.We don't need this.And that poster is right.There is alot of other evidence out there.

[HeyManThatsCool]

119. I agree Saracat

If she's as unglued as many are making her sound
having her on Countdown could make our cause look really nuts.

We don't need the equivalent of Ann Coulter out there spouting off at the mouth doing damage to the Democratic movement by shouting out unsubstantiated claims that cant be verified. The repubs have cornered the market on that (Coulter, Hannity, O'Lielly, Carlson, Limbaugh, Scarbrough-- the list is long and NOT distinguished)

[Wiley50]

120. I posted that first thread

I have a current comment too.
I have PM'd it to Elad to make sure it's not gonna get me toombstoned
It's been almost a half hour and he hasn't PM'd me back

Wiley

[crispini]

146. Ah, just post it.

:evilgrin: enquiring minds want to know!

(no, do what you think is right, really. but tbtp have been threatened with lawsuits by Bev twice, and she is a public figure, so it's not really a personal attack. see skinner's response to a similar query in Ask the Admins.)

[Wiley50]

165. Ok, Here goes........Pride Goeth Before a Fall

That's what we've all been thinking about Bushco.
I give honor to Bev for what she has done on the issue. And we all thought that she had the strength to lead us forward. I did anyway. Enough to be one of her volunteers.
But not only has she ignored, us, her people, her volunteers, while she has been in FL, she ignored the only ones in the MSM who would help us.
She'll wake up. and I hope when she does she isn't too hard on herself. We all have weak spots.
But, she hasn't only sunk her own ship, she has sunk this path to our purpose. Not just for her, but for all who wish to expose the creeping fascism.
When she went off on my partner this morning, I knew this wasn't far off if she didn't wake up immediately. Bernie didn't deserve that. I know no one, personally, who has fought harder for the cause. From registering over 1000 voters before the selection to heading for Ohio now. And all that he has done in between.
I've had it.
I'm gonna turn my attention to other organizations with cooler heads to fight the hydra.
Bev, Give back the money

Wiley

[Wiley50]

171. As a matter of fact

once I had read through the thread, then pasted and posted it. It didn't seem too out of line at all.
But what I'm thinking now probably is

Wiley

[crispini]

174. nah, it's not venomous or anything n/t

[DubyaSux]

57. Maybe the question is....

....what's more important?

Letting the world know we got fucked, or protecting your lawsuit? If she has evidence and a door to the world was opened up for her to show it, the lawsuit would seem to have to take a distant back seat.

She could lose her ass in court for a multitude of reasons and never have her "evidence" seen. But there are no legal technicalities in the court of public opinion. The door opened, and she slammed it in Kieth's face.

[EFerrari]

61. This is overstatement and overreaction

[HeyManThatsCool]

65. What Olbermann just said about Bev

Complicating our effort is the fact that even as we hoped to provide a platform to publicize and illuminate her efforts, Ms. Harris had returned none of the messages left on her own voicemail by Countdown staffers since she spoke to our staffers briefly, twice, during the week of November 8. Only today did she even get back in touch with us, and was so belligerent, threatening, and demanding, that we have chosen to withdraw our invitation to her to appear, or to have videotape of her efforts played, on Countdown.


Threats against myself or my staff will not be tolerated. We are not only busting our humps on the voting irregularities beat, but we remain the only mainstream news organization to continue to cover this vital story. These are my people — they are running professional risks I can’t begin to describe — and I will stand up for them, first, last, and always.

http://www.bloggermann.com/


Bev sounds slightly unglued

[The Flaming Red Head]

82. It's like a Hockey game now.

She came out swinging at him and he knocked her ass out.

[cry baby]

68. If she saves her evidence for court

and loses, even if she comes out and shows the world what she has after that, it will be discredited because it was used in a losing law suit.

I think she needs to show what she has and soon.

[DubyaSux]

72. Wow, cry baby...

....that's an excellent point! I hadn't thought about it in those terms.

[cry baby]

86. Thanks - I hope it doesn't come to that...

we need to expose the black box voting machines for future elections. If her work is discredited now, she will be useless in the future - and we need her to be credible!!

[HeyManThatsCool]

125. Cry

We may need her to be credible but that doesn't appear to be on her agenda.

But I have faith- I know there is someone out there who can do it.
It's just a question of finding that person.

[cry baby]

131. I'm starting to feel desperate, it seems that many

of the people in this discussion are feeling that way, too.

[HeyManThatsCool]

140. I concur

It's that constant feeling that u know the election wasn't right... in addition to the terrifying thought that no one can fix the problem!

[eowyn_of_rohan]

148. Things seem to be coming apart at the seams around here.

Too much pressure, and we need a shot of hope

[saracat]

78. Who cares already. This is going nowhere. budda can tell her everything.

[nutsnberries]

80. Dec 2 entry of Bloggermann up now

I haven't read this whole thread and haven't noticed if it's already been mentioned.

I thought a heads-up message would be ok (but I thought wrong!)- I do realize discussion should go in these assigned Discussion Threads.

It seems to me that both Keith and BH of BBV are doing what they can in their own ways,
unfortunately it doesn't look like they'll be working together anytime soon.

>on edit: i'm thinking maybe that's not *unfortunately*...
it's probably better that way, huh?

I don't know much about Bev Harris, I've just learned of her within the past few months.

I've watched Keith for a long time, and I've always liked him...
with him, it always seems like, *what you see is what you get*
and I really like that.

[Ducks In A Row]

97. Keith has nothing to offer.

Bev and company will do just fine without him

The best he could do is stop giving her grief.

[high density]

102. Yeah, he only has a very popular blog ...

and an hour on a cable news network every night.

Nothing there to offer at all.

[HeyManThatsCool]

105. ?

While Keith has been reporting the story
AND PUTTING THIS STORY OUT IN THE MSM= reporting on THE STORY AS IT BREAKS
it seems to me Bev has only been waving carrots in front of our faces.

[nutsnberries]

114. that's why I've got no complaints with Keith...

and I don't know what to make of Bev!

I don't know enough to doubt her or trust her.

[saracat]

116. She is now officially TV poison. Sigh. Too Bad.

It only happens if it is on TV. And she won't be now.

[texpatriot2004]

126. And she did it to herself n/t

[Vinnie From Indy]

89. My Most lingering Unanswered Question About Vote Fraud

I have read thousands of posts about how the vote totals may have been hacked at the "tabulator" level. I assume that each county has a tabulator that gathers all the data from the precincts and wards and sends the results to the state election office. I have no experience with the electronic voting machines, but I also assumed that each machine tally is counted at the precinct level on election night and the "polling tapes" are signed by the observers, judges etc. and sent to the county election office to be tabulated. If the totals were hacked at the county/tabulator level wouldn't the local or precinct level partisan observers immediately spot a mistake between the counts they took election night and the ones being reported by the county tabulator at certification?

I ask this only because I have been at a few state Democratic headquarters on election night and there is always a precinct committeeman or ward chairman running around with his or her precinct or ward tally to show people how well they did for the candidates by getting out the vote in their area.

Wouldn't the machines have to have been hacked at the precinct level so that these people would not know of the fraud? Also, many of the election day observers have worked the same locations for many, many years and they know their precincts. It would also seem that if the vote was hacked by machine by precinct that the theft would have to have been spread out to remain undetected by the partisan precinct observer. I am still puzzled as to how it could be stolen at the county or tabulator level without being detected by the local partisan poll observer.

[DubyaSux]

109. In one of my spars with Bev...

...Harris over this precinct hacking, she couldn't answer 3 questions for me (but huffed and puffed and threatened to report me for being a freeper):

1. How would she get her monkey alone with the voting equipment? Who would let her in to hack the system (her demo consisted of a monket deleting a table or something) with nobody else around?
2. The software uses a Microsoft Access database, but doesn't require Microsoft Office/Access to be on the system. It's custom software. How did she get Access onto the system to hack it?
3. Do the machines have CD-ROM drives on them to make it easy to load your own "Hack-a-minute" software or MS Office while all the democrat and republican election officials look the other way?

This is why most don't beleive this type of systematic fraud. It's incredibly complicated, requires tens of thousands of co-conspiritors, it had to work perfect, Murphy's law would not apply, every single person could keep a secret, and nobody would want to sell their book on how the election was rigged.

It defies logic. But, there are legitimate concerns that need addressed. Some people are active to be a part of that solution and my hats off to them. But not Bev. She chose to be part of the problem.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

169. It only takes 1 person to change votes on Diebold machines

See thread about Gaston County, NC Elections.
They hired the Diebold Technician to upload precinct totals for them.

Unfortunately, the tech "forgot" to upload 12,000 early and absentee votes, and also an entire precinct of around 1,300 voters.

Oops. It only took one election director to fall down on the job, and whoops, almost 14,000 votes not counted on Nov 2.

I don't know about the central tabulators of ES&S,Sequoia and others, but it goes on more than you would think.

[DubyaSux]

172. I have no doubt...

....these types of mistakes happen. I don't doubt some crooked asshole, either democrat or republican, would do that on purpose.

But in 10,000 precincts? People talk about 1,000,000 votes getting hacked, but I'm not sure there are any precincts that big. Hell, some STATES don't record 1,000,000 votes.

So, to make a statistical difference, it would have to happen all over the country. And the bigger the precinct, the bigger the scrutiny.

And we need people to make sure it doesn't happen.

[crispini]

155. How many of those precinct chairs go back

and check their tapes against the official tally? I was an alternate election judge and I have an opscan tape printout from my precinct here in my house, but I haven't checked it against the official tally.

(Maybe I should).

But even if you did, when you add in "absentee" and "early voting" how would you KNOW?

[Imajika]

91. There is two sides to every story...

Though I have always suspected Bev was a phony, I don't necessarily think this information in Keith's blog is absolute confirmation of that. Wires get crossed, tempers fray, pride gets injured - who knows who's sensibilities were offended.

I applaud an effort to look into our mishmash and dysfunctional voting system, I just wish BBV and Bev Harris would have done so without making grand announcements she could never seriously back up. Scoop Newzealand just doesn't cut it. We were told of proof of voting fraud in 2002/2003 - so much so that it would rival the Pentagon Papers and needed to be disseminated though multiple networks for safety. Why isn't Bev still in hiding I wonder? I mean, she's so clearly go the Republicans on the run now right? Hehehe.

I believe the near idol worship here on DU for Bev Harris was crazy. There is no reason she can't be questionned. No reason she shouldn't be asked over and over again to produce some of this "evidence" or "proof" of voter fraud.

But now it appears that Bev Harris is crashing and burning. I am a bit satisifed in seeing that since I've always believed it was coming...

...but, I can't help but stick up for the underdog sometimes. I do believe that some of what Bev Harris is doing is noble and worthwhile. Maybe she does stand to make sizable financial gain, but that doesn't really mean her organization hasn't and won't continue to do some good. I think it is only fair to hear her side of the story. Honestly, maybe Bev really has been so busy that she simply got her wires crossed with KO's staff. Once the Countdown people collectively gets the idea that she is a "kook" then they well no longer treat her decently...and the whole thing spirals down from there.

So lets hear Bev's side of the story if she cares to give it, and if she wishes to wait awhile and carefully think out the best next course of action - well so be it. This mini fued between Bev Harris and KO is not really helpful towards the goal of investigating voter irregularies. Lord knows I've attacked Bev from day one, but my only point was that a powerful forum like this should not take her announcments and newsdroppings as gospel. Sometimes I felt like DU should have called the BH (Bev Harris forum).

I think Bev Harris is trying to do some good things and at the same time carve out a niche which will allow her to make a nice living doing it. There really is nothing wrong with that. Bev Harris just needs to be honest, stop promising "proof" of voter fraud where there really is none, stop attacking anyone who might question her progress and updates, and never again storm a retirement party which was bound to infuriate just the local officials Voting Investigative groups will need the support of.

I always think it unfair when I occassionally get ganged up on, and now I feel too many are casting Bev aside to make room for "our" new idol Keith Olberman. Both Bev and KO are just people. Liberals fight liberals all the time, Republicans fight Republicans all the time, Mormons battle Mormons all the time, etc. It just isn't a shock that two people involved in this Voting Investigation movement wouldn't also clash.

My advice to Bev, and I don't presume that I know jacks**t about your situation so everything I say here is probably worthless, is to do the following: We are not here to be marketed to, most DUers are available to help where you reasonably need it. When you do an investigation and turn up nothing, admit it. If you've got evidence of voter irrgularies which need further investigation, don't call that evidence of real voter fraud. If you have some video or poll tape that exposes real fraud, then don't keep it under wraps - get it to responsible parties whether that be in the media or more powerful progressive/Democratic people or lawyers. Don't make parallels between what you have and the Pentagon Papers, unless you really and truly have a scandal that could rise to that level. Don't threaten to sue someone on the DU forum or the forum itself. Don't get in a pissing match with one of the only MSM outlets that will even touch the 2004 voting story. Realize that those who quesiton you probably feel they have a legitimate reason to do so - if you can't handle some hostility on webforum like this, you'll never make it in the real media world.

Either way, it seems that Bev's been beat up on enough - and I include myself in that. The ball is in her court now. Let's hope all this nastiness can be worked out among all parties involved.

And by the way, my constant posts going after Bev Harris over the years have probably not been helpful either. My posts have not usually been of the reaching out variety, I have tended to lock and load and zero in for max damage. I'm sorry about that. I will still question, and I will always be critical when I consider it necessary, but some of the personal attacks I've leveled have been unhelpful at best.

Imajika

[DubyaSux]

129. Other side of the story? Yeah...right...

The problem with her side of the story, is that it won't be the truth.

Here's her response (note: not really, I'm just making it up, but see how close it is):

People, people, people...relax. This was a simple misunderstanding. I've already settled the matter and I'll be on Kieth's show next week.

But right now, I don't have time to deal with that because a very reliable contact in the major media who hosts CBS news at 6:30 every evening from New York has told me the media has blacklisted me because of the information I have.

So, I will file a Qui Tam Hip Hop Tic Tac Toe motion today and demand they release evidence of Larry King being the second gunman on the grassy knoll.

Don't you worry. We're almost ready to spring our trap.

Love,
Bev
PS Remember, we are www.blackboxvoting.ORG, not .com. Make sure your donations get to me.

[ohio_liberal]

161. Qui Tam Hip Hop Tic Tac Toe

That was funny as hell. Ok, I'm back to lurking :)

[Kelvin Mace]

168. That is priceless...

Remember, we are www.blackboxvoting.ORG, not .com. Make sure your donations get to me.

First time I have ever gotten a laugh from that line.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Rose Siding]

95. What does he mean when he says "professional risk"?

These are my people — they are running professional risks I can’t begin to describe — and I will stand up for them, first, last, and always.

Disregarding the conflict btwn he and Bev, what risks does he mean? Hasn't he said repeatedly that there's no media wide lock-down on the story? -no pressure on him to not cover it?

I'm afraid he means that the "risk" is in dealing with what his colleagues might term "the looney left", and their inclusion in the nat'l dialogue.

Now, THAT's a depressing thought.

[nutsnberries]

108. write him and ask what he means,

if you really want to know.

[Rose Siding]

112. I did

He's never answered me yet. I'm always polite and respectful but I don't expect him to have the time.

[theboss]

122. Remember Dan Rather?

As a jouranlist, when you take a swing at the king, you had better knock him out. Olbermann and Company are treading very closely to the point where they are accusing the White House of stealing an election. If they ever actually cross that line, they had better be correct or none of them will ever work again.

[nutsnberries]

127. yeah, that's what I think he means but

on a smaller scale, his staffers aren't high-profile like Rather.

[bklyncowgirl]

158. It's on their resumes and will follow them the rest of their lives

Imagine you're an editor interviewing a reporter for a job. You see on his resume that he worked for CBS 60 Minutes 2 at the time of the AWOL story. Aren't you going to want to know whether or not the guy you're thinking of hiring was involved with that mess, and if he was involved, aren't you going to think twice before hiring him?

Like it or not these people have to tread carefully and actually, as the public, we shouldn't have it any other way. I just wish other news orgainizations were equally as carefull about verifying their sources, especially those who take the administration's word at fact value. It's easy to practice go along get along journalism. Countdown's pulling on the tiger's tail here and sooner or later the tiger's going to notice it.

If they don't have it dead to rights, this could get really ugly.

[demobabe]

150. Media people face all kinds of stuff...

From legal threats to physical threats, stalking, violence... the media tends to be the lightning rod for all the nutcases on the planet. I'm not talking about Bev here at all BTW. But having worked in the media, you don't take ANY chances.

Mentally unstable people write and visit these organizations ALL THE TIME. They figure either they'll get their chance for the world to see how right they are (after their spouse, family, or employer shunned them), or they'll be able to talk to someone really important... someone who will just listen to them.

This is the reason they have guards at the entrance to tv stations, newspapers, and radio stations. You have to sign in. They have to identify you.

I've seen people crash vehicles into newspaper lobbies.

[F.Gordon]

96. Responding to question in thread # 2

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x104661#104913

Which was a good question.

I usually don't get such reasonable responses. My reply....

Bev hasn't specifically made claims that can be addressed by the County in the form of a Public Statement. Since sorting through the BBV stories is sort of a game of "guess the fraud" I've made inquiries on my own based on the various hints I've gotten from the lawsuit and the stories. Precinct 215 is currently the only "evidence" that has been specifically addressed, so I responded to that particular item.

I have no "links". This is just information I obtained on my own. If you question it, then prove me wrong.

Oh, and I do have one question with a "link". Why hasn't Bev agreed to negotiate with Volusia County and do a hand recount? Wouldn't her time be better served in pursuing this venue rather than the off off off off Broadway production performed yesterday? Isn't THE TRUTH the ultimate goal here?

Lowe says she can be ready to conduct a hand recount within a few days of learning which precincts Harris wants to inspect. Why not put it to the test? A recount that closely matches the results in the machine tallies would offer strong evidence that the Accuvote system -- the same one that counted half the votes in the 2004 election nationwide -- is, indeed, reliable. But serious discrepancies would sound the alarm about an election potentially hijacked. Either way, it's information that elections officials need to know -- and, either way, as Harris says, Volusia County could end up doing a great service for the country.

Local officials should see this not as a challenge but as an important safeguard to a system that can always use improvement. This isn't the first time an election has been challenged, and it probably won't be the last. But, as Sancho points out, each challenge has the potential to bring more accountability to the system. Ten years ago, he says, it was not uncommon for thousands of votes to be discarded in an election -- with no notice to voters and no recourse. Today, such a move would be unthinkable -- an attitude shift that's a direct result of the 2000 challenges and the increased scrutiny that followed them.

http://www.news-journalonline.com/NewsJournalOnline/Opinion/Editorials/03OpOPN82112204.htm

[maxudargo]

103. Bev Harris says she is willing to provide the videotapes to anybody

Her response to Olbermann says she has provided the tapes to those who have asked for them and is willing to provide them to Olbermann.

So, instead of trashing/defending her and her organization, why aren't we trying to find a way for her to do just that.

I'm really late to this discussion, so I may have no idea what I'm talking about. But, on the other hand, being so late to the discussion might mean I can see it with an outsider's clarity.

If I understand what has happened, it is now Olbermann who is refusing to deal with Harris, because she has provoked his sense of protectiveness over his staff and offended his sense of loyalty to them. It seems to me we should be working to help these two people get past this point and re-focus on what they both know is most important.

Maybe Harris needs to apologize. But I don't think attacking her and blaming her is the best way to encourage her to apologize. Maybe she needs encouragement to get past whatever wrongs have been done her, real or imagined, so she can re-open a dialogue with Olbermann and use his forum to further the cause to which she has devoted so much energy.

And maybe Olbermann needs to be encouraged to get past the anger he feels towards Harris over the injustices, real or imagined, she inflicted on his staff.

If these two organizations have reached an impasse, then it seems to me that is exactly when concerned third parties should be working to diffuse the situation and help them past the problem and encourage them to keep moving forward. Not start choosing sides and join in the brawl.

I think we should all be very focused and doing everything we can to keep this story alive. Its chances of survival are not good, and that is the only thing we should be concerned about now.

[smartvoter]

118. He thinks he's unstable and closed the door. It's over on this front.

We just need to keep sending tidbits we find elsewhere and focus on the other areas. I know there are many Bev defenders out here, but she is known to throw around threats and it looks like she threw one too many.

Time to get on to other angles. We can't fix this.

[high density]

137. If she really wants the video out...

She'll find a computer that can capture video, then she can release it into the public domain and upload it to the Moving Images section of archive.org. They'll host it for free.

http://www.archive.org/movies/opensource_movies.php

[maxudargo]

147. Ok, has this idea been presented to her?

What does she have to say? Has she made an argument for not doing that?

Her response to Olbermann indicates she - or whoever owns the tapes - has made them available to whoever has asked. Has anybody put together a plan to make the tapes available over the Net and asked her to provide copies for that purpose?

[Us vs Them]

104. I just wrote this letter to Keith...

hoping to reasonably get my point across. Seems he's already made up his mind about Bev, so I decided to come at it from his angle. Despite what I wrote, I think her commitment so far is nothing short of commendable.

"I was initially persuaded to tune into Countdown on the premise of surveying coverage of the November 2nd Election by an element of the mainstream media. I have a strong suspicion I'm not the only one. As most amateur 'media watchdogs' will admit, it is near impossible for any one of us to know exactly what's going on in this country, so we take the next best option: a broad media survey. We read releases from the AP, we keep an eye on the networks, foreign media, blogs from the left and right, and when all information is compiled together, outliers of biased opinions shaved away, there is a universal theme of what MOST agree is an accurate portrayal of the 'news.' This, however, is still theory.

With all credit due, I'd like to compliment you, personally, on your take on the news. Between your tone on-air, and your literary voice, it's clear that the humour of skepticism is paramount in how you view your professional duty as a broadcaster. However, when faced with a relatively unknown entity, new information that has not been through the courtesy of widespread publication and examination, like Bev Harris and entourage, I can see how the job becomes a bit more difficult. I, myself, am faced with the challenge of Bev, and I don't even have the reputation of a network to uphold. I think many of us who work on facts rather than opinions have a sort of torn reaction to the news that trickles out of BlackBoxVoting.org. I've been there, I've seen the video, I've even donated a tenner to the cause (which is a lot of money on a student budget). I think the problem, the dissonance between logic and what evidence we've seen from them, lies solely on the shoulders of Bev, herself. I have a suspicion that this is an organisation working on hype alone. It's a sad conclusion to come to, as, in theory, I stand completely behind their alleged principles, and suspect you may as well. As the election deadlines grow closer, and more parallels to the Ukraine are drawn, I think we will only see more frantic flailing of guerilla political efforts, stateside. In order for these efforts to be taken seriously, there will be no room for personal ego or 'media character' personification - traits I reluctantly hang on Bev Harris, faced with the evidence of her actions, thusfar. The real problem is, and correct me if you get a contrary opinion, the both of you are ideally working towards the same cause. Truth. Those who are driven to throwing a wrench in the system, protesting, or even writing letters like this one are also working for that same cause. From what I've read, you have an entire mailbox full of people devoted to just that, each with his or her own personal opinions on Bev Harris. The difference is, they are willing to sort out what is news and what is media character. Is MSNBC's viewership capable of the same?

[Donailin]

106. There's no way I'm replying to this

thread.

NO WAY.

[Maddy McCall]

110. Uh...you just did.

If you don't want to reply, refrain from typing in the white box and hitting the baby-blue "Post Message" button.

[Donailin]

141. Woman. . .

it was a joke. I declare today light-hearted day.


BTW, do you ever sleep?

[fishnfla]

111. Bah! a tug of war over a hefty bag. What a crock of shit.

Having witnessed BH's very personal and petty attack on her publisher here late one night (in a thread where he was promoting BBV, no less) I can say with conviction: I trust Deanie Lowe, hell, I trust the optical scan machines here in Volusia County, more than I trust BH. How's that for full circle?

NSMA is right, she used DU. Hell, she still is.

Dont get left hanging on to a bag of trash folks.

[F.Gordon]

132. Aren't you in Volusia County?

I remember you from the first Bev thread. I know Bev sure the hell won't answer the question, but I've been trying to find out why she never worked with Deanie Lowe to do a hand recount. Have you heard anything? Last Bev mentioned the "errors" had grown to 30,000 votes and my speculation is that Bev never had any intention of doing a hand recount.

Just askin' if you've heard anything.

[WHAT]

156. OOOOoooohhhhh sinners.....let's go down.....

doooowwwnn in the river and praaaay....

religion is the only

available

answer....

WHY?

[KoKo]

163. Okay...last post: This from Jules Siegel/ Daily Kos Website about Bev..

Update by Jules Siegel
In general, I've found that people who come to the head of movements often have many disagreeable personal and professional characteristics. Even beatified saints aren't human saints when you examine their lives. Jealousy goes both ways. Leaders can be as jealous of their followers as vice versa. The drive for success often stems from very painful personality problems. Driven people may accomplish noble acts at the expense of others who help them. The fact is, however, that Bev Harris did make electronic vote rigging a national cause.

We don't always get the leaders we prefer. We get the leaders we get. The right is going to do its very best (worst, actually) to discredit the entire vote rigging theme. They will seize on Bev's flaws and the accusations against her to undermine the credibility and free discussion of why America is not entitled to an honest vote count. I'm sure they will do a very good job on their own. We don't have to help them.

At the same time, I fully agree that no one should try to suppress criticism. Even what appears to be unfair criticism frequently turns out to be not unfair at all. We have to try our best to be honest, even when it uncovers some inconvenient truths. I was one of the first experts on the liberal side to declare the National Guard memos a hoax. I did that on the basis of very sound advice from other people I trusted, whose methods I verified for myself, and credited fully.

Telling Bev to shut up and calm down because she embarrasses you is not very useful. Examining her personal character flaws may or may not be useful. Dismissing her accomplishments because of her tone or her personality flaws is simply destructive.

http://dark1p.dailykos.com/story/2004/11/10/193818/27

[Imagevision]

167. Recent Bev Harris asking for retraction from Keith...

Bev certainly has made some valid points to Keith...his response should be interesting.

[Kelvin Mace]

173. He responded..

the response was CIAO!

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[EarlG]

175. Please continue here...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x106819