Why Kerry and the DNC should DISTANCE themselves from the OH recount...

[mostly_lurking]

I feel very strongly that Kerry and the DNC could sabotage the Democrat chances in 2006 and 2008 if they become visibly involved in the recount effort in OH. Here's why:

1) So far, there is no "evidence" at all of fraud in OH. There are suspicions only.

2) The exit poll argument now looks questionable given NH's results. It's very possible now that the exit polls were flawed from the beginning.

3) The "Connaly" argument promoted by Jesse Jackson is very flimsy (and that's being generous). Suggesting that because a Supreme Court candidate, without even the party affiliation being noted on the ballot, should somehow track the same as the presidential candidates is just silly. The differences in vote results across the state could be no more sinister than the order of the candidate's name on the ballot (since many, many voters have know idea who the judges running for positions are anyway).

4) Allegations of voter intimidation due to mis-allocation of voting machines will have no impact whatsoever on the recount.

5) The recount is likely to be very expensive and take a lot of time (remember Florida in 2000? And that was only 3 counties!). The $113K required by OH law was implemented in 1956 and won't even come close to paying for the effort.

OK, now here is my point:

Assuming that fraud is not found, and the election not overturned, then many Ohioans are going to be PISSED at whoever forced the recount. You can be sure the Republicans will be very happy to remind the public in 2006 and 2008. If the Democrats are visibly and vocally involved, I believe you can write off Ohio for the foreseeable future.

On the other hand, by staying publicly quiet, the Democrats minimize their exposure and let the Greens/Libertarians take the damage. If fraud is found then the Democrats can jump in full force.

Just my 2 cents on this... flame on.

[Karmadillo]

1. You're using facts and reason in reaching your conclusions. I'm alerting

the mods immediately.

[drthais]

4. agreed

out

[Snivi Yllom]

15. but if you demand a retraction you might be more respected by some

at least thats how it works at BBV.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bowens43]

3. Yes, we should just forget about it.

Who the fuck needs free and fair elections anyway? The one party system is working just fine. After the idiot we can look forward to 8 years of Jeb. Everything is fine. No problems. Nothing to see here. Move along. Get over it.

[mostly_lurking]

9. This is, of course, not what I said

I was suggesting a strategy for the leadership of the party. Which, by the way, they may have already deduced and decided upon (given their relative silence).

I did not say "no recount." I merely suggested that Kerry and the DNC remain quiet and on the sidelines (the best of both worlds, so to speak).

I believe the recount will go on, regardless of what Democrats do (it is the law in Ohio). So why should the leadership take the chance on damage when they don't have to?

[merh]

43. I don't see the damage -

all these posts about damaging the cause or the party. I just don't get it, dems are not pro-active, they take what is given or feed to them, that is why they have been losing.

When a democratic candidate runs, he tries that tried and true, I am a consertive family man/woman. Then the repukes come out with - Dem Candidate is a liberal. Our strategy should be yes, I am a liberal in comparision to Repuke guy, but this is what that means. Embrace our principles and not try to embody theirs. (imho)

You distance yourself all you want, that is cool. I want party leaders that fight for the nation first, the party second! :argh:
Hopefully, in fighting for the nation, they are fighting for our party!

[buddysmellgood]

61. What your suggesting is not leadership.

[trayfoot]

65. Well, what I see very clearly in this red state of Virginia

are dems who are seething mad at both Kerry and the DNC! And, that means folks, that they will NOT turn out in 06 or 08 because they believe we have a "fixed" electoral system in place - why bother to vote? So, the DNC can use all the "strategery" it wants to use, but it is loosing democratic faithful with each day they sit on their asses and do nothing.

[electropop]

68. fellow VA Kerry campaigner is also hopping mad

If Kerry isn't doing something in secret to overturn the fraud (and that seems very unlikely), I will never forgive him or the Dems. Not that it matters whether I forgive them, because if they don't fight, they will cease to exist after the next 'election'.

[DancingBear]

71. Another VA Kerry supporter here

Last night, Mrs. DB (who is not taken to these sorts of things) told me she is about "this close" to losing all respect for John Kerry if he does not fight the FRAUD component of this so-called election.

If she is feeling this way, millions more are as well.

We stood behind a fighter, but we are feeling (to this point, at least) decieved.

The Democratic party is playing a fool's game if they think I/we will come out as strongly next time around.

We will not. As of today, we are giving NO money/support to the DNC/DLC wing of this party. We gave to the Gregoire recount via DFA, and we will continue to support CHANGE within this party through viable candidates such as Dean and Clark. We will be in the streets when the call comes, and we will
help in any way we can to bring about the true vision of what the Democratic Party should and must stand for.

We're just going to do it without the "help" of The Inside The Beltway Gang.

[moonkat]

67. Except that ...

In Selection 2000 the world believed the election was stolen and that Americans weren't really like W made us out to be. In Election 2004, the world is now seeing that Americans did in fact re-elect W and support the policies of W and the U.S. is a danger to the world community. So it boilds down to doing our own housekeeping or having the world do it for us. We're in it like it or not and I would prefer we remain a democracy.

[Twist_U_Up]

5. I saw somewhere

someone did the math and it would cost taxpayers an extra 13 cents each.
pretty cheap
nice reverse spin

[slor]

6. Yep, no evidence of fraud...

and the good and caring election officials in Warren County, obviously closed out the media during both the count AND recount of votes, to prevent the elections staff from catching a cold, from all that door opening that would allow a draft into the room. Everything is so clearly on the up and up in Ohio.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BR_Parkway]

27. There's no draft, I heard the campaign commercial myself n/t

[m.standridge]

75. Evidence of fraud--but NUMBERS?

Little Rock, Arkansas:
There is evidence of fraud in Ohio, but I keep seeing the smae numbers, over and over. The numbers still aren't there. Even if some of the numbers are fraudulent, you have to have ENOUGH numbers.

Look: AR, IA and NM or NV = 270 Electoral votes for Kerry.
Election day polls by local CBS tv affililate KTHV here in AR showed we were as close as 48-48, and Clinton waded in at the last minute for Kerry, which helped immensely, bridging the gap between anti-Vietnam Demos and Vietnam veterans and disabled vets for Kerry here.
I think I'd argue the exit polls here WERE in error, aside from any papers in PA. I'd be saying this anyway.
Nevada has a good case for a recount.
So does NM. I haven't heard anything about Iowa, but I noticed they were having to be slow getting it all counted because of computer problems.
All three of those states were closer than Ohio.
As for AR, it doesn't appear to be closer, but the Sec'y of State's office here had to do some massive corrections: over 50,000 votes just in two counties, in two statewide national races.

Recount AR, IA and NV and/or NM. Either alongside or instead of FL and /or OH. I'd tell that to the DLC, not just the DNC.
We have a two-party system and a three-branches of government system to protect. This GOP control of all three branches is unprecedented, especially for four years. Now, it's going to go on for at least two more. Does any really believe the two-party system can survive that for long? If they do, they aren't being realistic.

[Laelth]

7. I just don't see the harm.

"many Ohioans are going to be PISSED"?

Really? Why? The parties requesting the recount have to pay for them. What would Ohioans be "pissed" about?

Does it hurt the party image to demand recounts or even "support" recounts? I'm not sure. This is something many of us seem to believe, but that nobody can prove with solid evidence. I'm just not sure I buy it. Personally, I think Democrats need to stand for open, honest, non-electronic elections.

-Laelth

[mostly_lurking]

13. They aren't really paying the cost...

The $10/precinct fee for the recount was established in 1956. The actual cost of the recount is likely to be 10 to 20 times that.

[carolinalady]

24. What exactly will be charged to the taxpayers? Why are we

raising money to pay for the recounts?

[mostly_lurking]

26. The taxpayers pay for office space, security, salaries, etc.

The money the Greens/Libs are raising covers the OH law of $10/precinct. However, that law was written in 1956 and never updated for inflation.

Hence, the $113K paid won't come even close to paying for the recount.

If fraud is uncovered then I don't think anyone in Ohio will be at all concerned about the cost. If, however, fraud is not uncovered, then the recount will look like an unnecessary waste of time and money. That could be politically damaging in the next few elections (you can count on the Republicans exploiting the cost to taxpayers).

[merh]

47. How many Ohioans (and residents of other states) were pissed

off because they couldn't vote or their precincts had so many problems? How many Ohioans and citizens of other states are pissed off because their votes have not be counted and the election process is screwed up?
Gee, it appears that approximately 58 Million folks are pissed off their guy didn't win and when they learn that the thief stole the election, they will really be pissed.

[goclark]

31. Huum, but they are not pissed about the $$$$$ in Iraq?

Interesting that we will gladly go after innnocent women and children and send our soldiers to an unjust war and not care about the $$$$'s.

I agree with you Laeth.

[Pepper32]

46. Exactly... they can spend millions on an unjust war but not for Democracy

yeah, just eff saving Democracy and making sure every vote counts. :grr:

[googly]

74. The taxpayers pay the cost of recount over and above what the

candidates are required to pay which is miniscule in comparison to actual costs. To my knowledge the candidates required cost contribution
is based on a law that is many decades old, and has not been adjusted for inflation.

A wild guess is the candidates will pay something like $117,000 and the actual cost will be atleast TEN times that. But that is the law, we might as well take advantage of it and let the manual recount proceed.
If the Ohio voters get pissed, so be it. They vote repug anyway.

[righteous1]

89. I keep hearing conflicting reports on this n/t

[Ardee]

10. While I agree that

there is no real evidence of fraud I find your premise rather faulty.
You are certainly within your rights to espouse a philosophy of moral cowardice and abdication of responsibility just as I am within my rights to reject such a call.

Further, should the Greens be the only party to attempt to ensure our right to free an legal elections I will just give my support to them.

[farmbo]

11. The Repubs in Ohio waste/steal more money in a day than the Recount costs.

From the Columbus Dispatch today:

State panel gave itself big raises, probe finds
Inspector general’s report already sent to county prosecutor
Friday, December 03, 2004
Jon Craig
THE COLUMBUS DISPATCH


Leaders of a state commission improperly changed agency rules to give themselves a 33 percent salary increase — even though several already were getting paid for working full-time jobs elsewhere — according to an investigation being unveiled today.

Seven members of the Ohio Rehabilitation Services Commission received nearly $700,000 in total compensation during 2002 and 2003, state Inspector General Thomas P. Charles found. He referred his findings to Franklin County Prosecutor Ron O’Brien for possible criminal charges.
<snip>

I don't know where your coming from on this critique, but you've overlooked the three most significant indicia of voter fraud in trying to make your case:
1)The Warren County Lock down
2) 19,000 "found ballots" in Miami county after the polls closed
3) The Gahanna 'anomaly' which has NEVER been explained.

Nobody here in Ohio gives a Rat's A** whether Kerry or the Dems lead the charge. But they do need to stay out of the way and keep their mouths shut.

[Roger_Otip]

12. there are reasonable suspicions

There is evidence, a lot of it, and there is reasonable suspicion that there was fraud. Since this is such a serious allegation every effort should be made to get to the bottom of it and the recount will help towards doing that, one way or another.

See this daily kos article - http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/11/30/185532/75

The Democrats should be involved because democracy is more important than their party - though I don't see a conflict of interests because if there is no democracy or if democracy is undermined the Democrats will just become a stooge party put up to make it look like the voters have a choice, when in fact they don't any more.

[mostly_lurking]

14. I agree there are suspicions...

..but so far there is no evidence. Evidence is factual proof, such as finding real code in a counting machine that switches votes and a tape recording of officials discussing plans to rig results.

Now it's true that evidence might be uncovered in the recount, but then again it might not.

My point, again, is not to stop the recount but let someone else (Greens/Libs) take the political risk. If fraud is found then I would expect the DNC to pounce.

[Roger_Otip]

48. there is evidence

Evidence is not proof. The cumulation of evidence can lead to proof, but it will only lead there if you investigate. For instance, you're only going to find the code in the counting machines if you have access to those counting machines - if access to this is block then that would be evidence that someone has something to hide.

However, any one piece of such evidence in itself will not amount to proof. People keep talking about some smoking gun - I don't think there is such a thing. It's the cumulation of evidence that I find so compelling. Each "glitch" could just be a glitch, but taken together they form a pattern. Each exit poll anomaly, similarly, on its own could just be an error, but put them all together and you get the same pattern as the glitches showed. The means to commit electoral fraud has been demonstrated eg http://www.chuckherrin.com/hackthevote.htm, the motive is clear, and the examples of voter suppression, fewer voting machines in democrat areas etc. is evidence that it has been acted on - in itself fraud...

My worry is that if people say "oh, I'll believe it when I see the proof" but then they block any efforts being made, or at least don't support those efforts, which could lead to proof and we'll end up being in a position where we'll never really know one way or the other. I think it's about time those who are so sure there wasn't fraud start presenting their own proof. If they've got nothing to hide they should not object to recounts or investigations.

[m.standridge]

78. ABSOLUTELY! What I've been saying here in AR--and DLC needs

to get involved, too. This is bigger than the infighting in the Democratic Party of the past. We just don't have that luxury anymore. The third parties have picked up on this, to their credit. We have to have a functioning, two or multi-party system to have a real democracy.
Right now, the GOP has it hands-down, and has a controlled news media, by and large, except for the internet and a couple of columnists at the NYT and Boston Globe, and maybe a couple people at NBC, CBS or MSNBC, and maybe one at CNN. Most of the network people have bugged out on this story, and it's much more important than just numbers.
If the Democrats don't regain control of one branch this time, they may cease to exist, as well as the various third parties, as working entities. After all, you have to have a two-party system before you have any hope of having a three-party system, anyway.
Right now, we've got a one-party system: one party controls all three branches of the federal government, and has since 2000. The attempt to have one seat up in the Senate was defeated by mysterious plane crashes of successful pending Senate candidates Mel Carnahan and Paul Wellstone.
Now, all this about "gltiches" that always just happen to favor George W. Bush with his Patriot Act's powers to incarcerate without charging for months on end, Homeland Security Department with vague powers possibly including more surveillance, long-time Bush ties to the CIA with black ops budgets and massive federal deficits, line-item veto, Drug War extraordinary police break-in powers.
The media are sarcastically saying many Democrats are suffering from "depression". This is one person who's suffering from paranoia.
I challenge any DLC conservative to tell me how they believe Hillary has a dog's chance in hell of getting to be President with all this going on. All she could ever hope to be, is a respectful also-ran, wtih all this going on.
These GOP state government officials around the country, are just not being realistic about the impact of a one-party state on their own lives in the future.

[WiseFawn]

16. Ohio will show everyone on Saturday

at the rally, just how badly we want this recount and that we don't care how much it costs us! We have donated our money, our time, our energy, much for this fight. Believe me, it will be worth every dime and more. Ohio DID NOT vote Bush in!!!!!!

[Todd In Texas]

17. Why Kerry Should MOST CERTAINLY Be Involved....

1) He has nothing to lose, and the presidency to gain. Yeah, he's a senator, but we're in the minority, about to be "nuked", and whether he likes the idea or not, WILL NOT be getting another chance in 2008, unless we're all just THAT stupid.

2) Too many voting oddities to be ignored - ignoring them implies consent.

[PATRICK]

18. circular frustration

The only point of all of this is the assumption that nothing will in fact change the recount. That in fact is the crux of the problem trying to break through the media circus which only cares about the contest and shrugs off ANY amount of fraud or dirty tricks.

The fraud that diminished the votes cast for Kerry IS a civil rights issue and fraud issue. Falling into recount mode simply discards that whole complaint at least as far as the dumb-downed media is concerned. Something is still wrong with statistical assumptions as well. From Gore to now a lot of effort was put behind assumptions that the Dem would pick up a LOT more votes. The New Hampshire problem should be scrutinized carefully because we are getting at this in dibs and drabs.

However to worry about the hurt feelings of Ohioans that the victim of so much chicanery demands at least to try retrieving the truth is stupid. This type of circular defeatism is precisely what we wish to avoid although I am sure the DNC sweats nails about their lousy PR every day.

The fraud is a complex mess that a simple recount cannot possibly correct. The ma and pa garden variety fraud of the local officials has a myriad of quiet and semi-legal ways to affect the total, the machines, the ballot certification, the SOS, the courts, and the "lost" ballots to begin with. It seems when you dip into the recount game a thousand such details pick at you from all sides because the standard for counting and certifying elections like this in the first place is an incredibly bad mess- and a purposeful one in that a certain party and candidate benefits nearly each individual time.

Letting the Greens walk into this game as a surrogate leaves them open as inexperienced prey to what happened in Florida. How soon we forget.

I am sure Kerry has a couple of concerns, namely starting with the possibility that the victory is retrievable. No one here can assure that a simple recount will give him that. When Edwards stormed out and vowed to make every vote count I thought: what about tossing the spoiled goods in fraudulent counties? Sure that would start a series of turf wars and cripple the "every vote" counts argument, but immediately we are back in 2000 again with a single strategy and a higher hill and no progress at all in any of the just complaints about the process. AND still no recognition that we numerically won in 2000 and that there was fraud.

Still stuck behind the 8-ball for the past month because the "contest"
meme rules. IF there is a white flag going to go up, that is Kerry's call. A white flag from those interested in getting democracy back is NOT an option whatever happens to the present "contest".

Separating the two is a pain we have faced for weeks, but it hasn't happened yet. We don't need anymore unhappy suggestions or a reconciliating tone. We need to match their criminal behavior with passionate resolve.

[Pepper32]

19. I strongly disagree!

I know someone that was a victim of this and I find #3 very offensive and disheartening! It's as if you are saying voter intimidation/suppression doesn't matter since it will not overturn the election. So it's only wrong if it could possibly change the election results? This is not about just trying to win the election, it's about saving democracy and putting an end to Jim Crow tactics.

[mostly_lurking]

21. I did not intend to minimize that issue...

of voter intimidation.

My point is that voter intimidation is not addressed in a recount since presumably those votes very never cast. Proving such intimidation is very hard and is an issue that needs to be addressed going forward (that is, make sure it doesn't happen again).

Again, I'm sorry if my point offended you... that was not my intent. I also believe, very strongly, that no one should ever be intimidated or prevented for casting his or her vote

[Pepper32]

33. Point taken. However, what about the so-called "Spoiled Ballots"?

You do know that a majority of them are likely to be black votes? Why can't we inspect these?

Oh, I forgot... we can't prove it. More like no one cares enough too.


In a careful county-by-county, precinct-by-precinct analysis of the Florida 2000 race, the US Civil Rights Commission discovered that 54% of the votes in the spoilage bin were cast by African-Americans. http://www.gregpalast.com/detail.cfm?artid=393&row=0
KERRY WON OHIO JUST COUNT THE BALLOTS AT THE BACK OF THE BUS In These Times

http://shadowbox.i8.com/suppression.htm
Focus on Voter Suppression (complaint records)


http://shadowbox.i8.com/Suppression/ohio/ohiomachines.htm
Look at how many machines that just so happened to have broke down in two black counties. BULL....


Long lines, broken machines, confusion and rain. This was Columbus on election day. Video Producer Linda Byrket compiled video from 9 different videographers who witnessed and recorded the people's struggle to vote on November 2. Below is the video broken into five, roughly 5 minute long, segments for download. MORE
http://www.theneighborhoodnetwork.org/Video/Vote/Vote.html
"Video the Vote"

I estimate, by the way, that an estimated loss of over 8,000 votes from the African American community in the City of Youngstown alone, with its 84 precincts, were lost due to insufficient voting machines, and that would translate to some 7,000 votes lost for John Kerry for President in Youngstown alone. . . .”
<snip>

Allesondra Hernandez, Toledo: “What I witnessed when I had gotten there about 9 A.M. was a young African American woman who had come out nearly in tears. She was a new voter, very first registered, very excited to vote, and she had said that she had been bounced around to three different polling places, and this one had just turned her down again.
<snip>
http://bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?id_article=4428
Hearings on Ohio voting put 2004 election in doubt

[mostly_lurking]

36. My understanding is they will be examined

in the recount. But I don't pretend to be an expert on Ohio election law so I may be mistaken.

[Pepper32]

44. Bottomline, is this... we can't sweep this under America's rug with the

...rest of the evil things done to Black people and other minorities. In fact, the rug looks like Mount Everest now, I doubt if anything else will fit. We need to address this NOW and not allow repugs to continue to reverse the clock. Kerry and the Dems need to show they don't stand for this, otherwise they stand for nothing. IMO

[Dr Ron]

20. Downside of recount in long run

There are good reasons not to make too much noise about the Ohio recount (although of course we need it to be completed).

Many of the election problems will not be seen in a recount. Factors (in Ohio and elsewhere) such as long lines and scare tactics such as "warning" minorities of risks of imprisonment if they vote) are not seen in a recount as such votes were never counted. While it does not apply in Ohio, the biggest issue may be having a paper record of computer votes.

If we make too much noise about Ohio, and then the recount shows that Bush still won, which most likely will occur based upon the votes actually cast, the public might then think that this whole issue is nonsense.

We need to quietly have the recount and gather data. Should there unexpectedly be evidence that Kerry has the votes, then action should be taken on this. Otherwise we need to concentrate on the bigger issues. We need to push for requirements fora paper trail. We need to push for national standards for voting. We need to ensure that minority areas do not have long lines. We need vigorous investigation and prosecution of false registration and voter intimidation schemes.

We cannot afford to have these issues be ignored by Republicans claiming this is all nonsense should Bush win the recount. We need to have Republicans on the defensive on this issue, and have the public question why anyone of either parthy would oppose law to ensure fair elections.

[myschkin]

22. there is no soul in this statement

Welcome, Karl, to DU!

By the way, your proposal, Karl, has no character.

You should do the right thing, not glancing at a possible future election - that's just going wrong.

[mostly_lurking]

40. Who is Karl? n/t

[OneBlueSky]

23. totally disagree . . .

"sabotage the Democrat chances in 2006 and 2008?" . . . what chances? . . . our entire election process is in the hands of Republican corporations, who can set their machines to spit out any result they wish . . . with no fear of getting caught . . . we have no chances in 2006 or 2008 if we don't uncover and expose every single incident of election fraud (and even attempted fraud) in 2004 . . . enough so that the public demands a fair and honest voting system . . .

this is far bigger than a recount . . . it goes directly to the very core of our democracy . . . not only should Democrats not distance themselves, they should be taking the lead both in Ohio and in the rest of the nation . . . if the Democrats don't stand up for fair, honest, and open elections, they forfeit any right to ask for my support in the future . . .

[17yroldtwins]

25. I agree with OneBlueSky

Look at all the work the grassroots folks have done. (Count the Greens and Libs as grassroots,too). Look at the money that has been raised. Look at the questions that have been raised. Evidence is coming out.

Now is the time for the BIG GUNS to start making their presence known.

Any, yes, it's for ALL THE MARBLES. If we don't get this taken care of right now, there is no chance that ANY future election will be legit.

Attie

[Eloriel]

41. And if anyone doubts the "evidence"

they can take a wander through these threads -- I'd suggest ALL of Ohio and ALL of Background and ALL of the 5th thread as well (esp. those regarding Ohio data):

VOTE FRAUD LINKS - A DU Compendium - Thread #4
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=201&topic_id=6166&mesg_id=6166

VOTE FRAUD LINKS - A DU Compendium - Thread #3
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=201x4927

VOTE FRAUD Links Compendium - Thread #2
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=201x3223

VOTE FRAUD Links - a DU Compendium
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=201&topic_id=1984#


The BEST of the DU Analyses (KEEP KICKED PLEASE!)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=97510#97805


Edited to add: and oh -- if Kerry and the DNC got any MORE distant, they'd be on the moon.

[SueZhope]

72. exactly OneBlueSky

if they don't stand & fight know.... when will they ??
They are already late in the fight..when do they join?
With a system that is not transparent and a media
that does not share the truth about the system
then were the hell is the democracy..?

How many elections need to be fixed?
Why arnt they up in arms about this? why this game of we cant upset any one bla bla bla
2008 ...Its about TODAY

The only reason more people are not enraged by this is because they don't even now the reality. if the people new what happened 2000, 2002, 2004 they would be on the streets.....people just don't know and they don't want to know

Every person I tell they says
We all moved on Bush won.....get over it
get over what democracy?

We who know the truth are not going away..... we do need the leaders of the party to face reality or they should just prepare for extinction .

[iconoclastNYC]

80. Yes. Exactly.

The whole media has been spreading this lie that the Democrats are finished as a party for years now and the faked elections will just reinforce this lie.

We will never make any progress if the Republicans corporate buddies control the election results.

[ArthurDent]

28. I (alone?) agree with you

The DNC should let this be handled by others. While I'm skeptical about your 5th reason -- I don't think the cost and time will make Ohioans irate, or even be a good talking points for the GOP -- I'm willingto buy the other four: no evidence of fraud, actual evidence that exit polls were fraud, and the ridiculousness of the Connaly argument.

I've omitted your fourth reason because that's where I agree most.

Do as many recounts as you want, and you'll never find out how many people were victims of any systematic fraud.
* If the GOP pretended to register people to vote but never turned in the sheets, this won't turn up on a recount.
* If voter registration forms were stolen/destroyed w/o being processed, this won't turn up on a recount.
* Any voter who was denied the ability to cast a provisional ballot? They won't be shown in recounts.

The DNC should invest its own time and money into things like this. Kerry '04 (or more accurately, 1/20/05) is a losing cause and its advocation will end up hurting the party in the short and long run alike. On the other hand, actual work toward detecting, displaying, and preventing voter suppression would be significant.

As for Diebold issues, the lack of a paper trail is unfortunately not going to end until we're at a stage where it is clearly outcome determinative. There's nothing, to the public at large, problematic about an inexact system that very likely yields the intended result. There's anecodatal evidence of this. Florida probably used punch cards for ages before 2000. Once they learned the hard way that such things were unable to determine the winner of a close election, well, they went the way of the Dodo. Once a Diebold-using area has the same problem, the lack of a paper trail will come to light. The fact that it should happen before such a travesty is sadly a non-issue as it lacks realism. But eventually, and hopefully not catastrophically, everything will come to bear.

[saracat]

77. Do you work for the DLC or what?

Your implication that the Democratic Party's preservation is more important than anything else is sickening. Your concern about the Part's being hurt doesn't hold any water. The Party may already be finished. They just haven't realized it yet. This recount is the only hope they have for survival! Do you not realize how many people are angry? How many people want their money back? How many people will never donate again? I hear that not only on this board but all through my district. The Party continually dismisses this people as fringe. Well, that fringe element was the one that raised them all their money this cycle and they won't be seeing it again. The Party assumes, and I have been told this "they won't have anywhere else to go". Well, I think they are about to be surprised!

[The Flaming Red Head]

29. Voter Suppression in Ohio is a fact The Dem party needs to be in on this

Racism, disenfranchisement, and voter suppression occurred in Ohio and many other places. This is a civil rights issue, as much as an election fraud issue, and the Democratic leaders better get involved if they want anyone blocked from voting for them in the next election.

If they don't get involved, we won't have to worry about poll harrasers/challengers, or lack of machines, or dirty deals, because no one's going to show up to vote for them next time.

[SeattleRob]

30. yeah...

God forbid the Democratic Party should show a spine. It might turn off the swing voters in 2012!

[ClassWarrior]

32. Kerry shouldn't get involved in the recount...

Yet, the recount can't succeed unless Kerry DOES get involved... Cognitive... dissonance... Can't... make... sense... of it all... Have to... give... up... All... is... lost... for the Progressive movement...

<sarcasm off>

LMAO

NGU.

[InvisibleBallots]

66. I don't think we have to worry about Kerry getting involved

I'm sure his recent payout is all we'll see from him until 2008.

[november3rd]

34. Thanks for sharing, but I disagree

I especially disagree with Points 1 and 2.

The evidence of irregularities -- not just in the exit polls -- but in the Ohio tabulations, grow daily.

The New Hampshire results are not as pristine as they appear at 1st glance.

The only way to keep the spotlight on the problems caused by voter suppression with inadequate voting machines and registration intimidation is to prolong the outcome and sustain the period of election scrutiny.

This is worth whatever it costs and more.

Our goal should be to overturn the election results in any state where suppression and intimidation occur, or, guess what? They will REcur next election.

There has been fraud and shennanigans in every election in the history of the United States. I am confident it will be unearthed in this election, even in Ohio, if the scrutiny is sustained.

[carolinalady]

35. The Connally thing is not necessarily flimsy.

I asked this in another thread but did not get a reply. In NC I was given a very bright yellow card before I went in to vote that listed all of the Dem candidates including the judges. I was also sent in the mail a few days before the election "A guide to understanding the judicial candidates with their party affiliations." My mother was given the same info in VA. Did they do this in OH?

[mostly_lurking]

38. I have never seen anything like that

in Florida or Colorado. I do not know if Ohio has anything like it.

[farmbo]

54. All Dems and Repubs received a "Sample Ballot" endorsing Judges

In the case of the GOP, most voters received three or four glossy mailings endorsing Connally's opponent, three-term Chief Justice Thomas Moyer (R).

Hell, I'm a Dem activist and even I received the GOP sample ballot. They hit everyone with multiple mailings.

The Connally anomaly is indeed evidence of vote swapping in certain counties in SW Ohio.

[robbedvoter]

37. There's evidence - before an investigation started, Enough to

investigate. That would be the legalistic answer.
beyond this, it's about our voting rights - the cornerstone of democracy. Ignore them and 2 things will happen:
1. They'll keep stealing
2. We'll stop voting

[Pepper32]

56. Agreed. I wish everyone understood this... n/t

[cdp]

39. A Dem thinking STRATEGICALLY?!?

Who would have thought?
I am all for it.

[Junkdrawer]

42. Yep. Making waves would hurt Kerry's personal friendships with..

our Republican masters. Wouldn't want that!

[Pepper32]

51. Yep...

.... got to roll over for the masta'

[malatesta1137]

45. you mean, even MORE distant that they already are?

your reasons for the DNC not to get involved are preposterous at best. They are the same cowardly tactics used by the pathetic leadership of Tom Daschle.

Evidence of fraud ABOUNDS, we have technicians confessing to rigging computers, what else do you need?

But like I've been saying all along, Kerry was the wrong man. He fled and things are only getting worse, not better.

[Karmadillo]

52. Wow! Do you have a link to the technicians who confessed to rigging

computers? I'd be very interested in reading what they had to say.

[malatesta1137]

53. Saudis, Enron money helped pay for US rigged election

http://www.onlinejournal.com/Special_Reports/112504Madsen/112504madsen.html

[Karmadillo]

55. I'm not sure it would be a good idea for Kerry to rely on Madsen's

work until the technicians are actually willing to come forward. As it stands, Madsen has talked with someone who is saying the technicians are admitting to rigging the vote. It's hard not to imagine the media devouring Kerry if he got behind the story at this point.

[malatesta1137]

58. the media will devour Kerry REGARDLESS

as in fact it has. Isn't he supposed to be a war hero? can't this man stand up to the media and fight??

[Karmadillo]

70. What do you want him to stand up and fight about? There's

already going to be a recount.

[malatesta1137]

92. what makes you think that the recount won't be rigged

just like the first count?

[Broken Acorn]

49. Skull & Bones

likes to work in the shadows of secrecy^^

[PaganPreacher]

50. Recount by itself is not enough, no matter who is "lead,"

Time for some action!

Since voting is regulated by the states, the strongest course of action focuses on change at the state level.


TACTICAL PLAN: Find fraud and disenfranchisement wherever it may be.

1. Count every vote! Demand a recount in YOUR state, whether it went blue or red (at least as much as can be afforded from the millions in leftover Kerry money.)

2. Keep up pressure on DNC and DLC to fully fund all recount efforts. Remind them who donated all that money, if you have to (the well can always run dry, right?)

3. Get YOUR state press involved. Be the voice of reason, or they will marginalize you. Have your facts straight (not tin-foil stuff or unsubstantiated accusations.)


STRATEGIC PLAN: Guarantee a voting system with full accountability and transparancy.

1. Find out if YOUR state, and your precinct use paperless ballot machines.

2. Pressure YOUR state representatives to change to paper-receipt ballot machines throughout your state. Send letters, make phone calls, go to the state capital during the legislative session and talk to your representative.

3. Keep the issue of voting rights in your state press. Again, be a reasonable, articulate advocate for voting rights. Avoid tin-foil stuff.

4. Be ready for a long, uphill battle. The Roman Empire was not brought down in a day. Release your inner Visigoth!

The Pagan Preacher
I don't turn the other cheek.

[malatesta1137]

93. are you for real?

do you think all this hasn't already been done and all efforts are killed by some Republican Secretary of State at the end? He/she has the power to change the final vote count, regardless.

Your tactical and strategic plans are worthless.

[carolinalady]

57. regarding the cost of the recount

If the cost established in 1956 is too low to pay for expenses then the OH voters need to be angry with the REPUBLICAN SOS--Blackwell. This should have been addressed considering the fact that it was common knowledge that OH was going to be a key factor in the outcome of the race and the probability was high that there would be a need for a recount.

[mostly_lurking]

64. The legislature sets the amount

I imagine they will update the law in the coming year. It's one of those things that nobody notices until it comes up. Truthfully, I doubt anyone in Ohio ever expected a recount request when the margin is 118K+ votes.

[carolinalady]

73. They should have expected it BEFORE the election.

Repub governor; Repub legislators--The argument that they can blame the Dems still doesn't was.

[mostly_lurking]

82. Why?

Why should they have "expected it"? The law has been on the books for nearly 50 years and this has never happened before. Why should anyone, either Republican or Democrat, have expected a third party challenge when the vote spread is 118K+ votes? In Florida in 2000 the vote spread was 527... this is over 200 times that. It doesn't make any sense that they should have "expected" this.

[carolinalady]

83. Ohio was singled out before the election as the next possible

Florida. This was on all major media outlets. It was well known that each side had hired numerous attorneys in the event of a 2000 repeat. I would think that EVERY SoS would have looked at their recount processes and been prepared should the need arise. From what I have been reading about the cost of recounts in other states, they seem to have adjusted for the cost of inflation.
Prior Planning Prevents Poor Performance!

[mattclearing]

59. While I think the strategy is sound...

I feel that the Democratic Party's inability to understand the problem is the biggest problem here.

Kerry doesn't recognize that he likely won the election. He will not acknowledge the possibility publicly. Someone said they had a chance to talk to him about BBV before the election and Kerry looked at him like he was spouting conspiracy nonsense.

The DNC and prominent Democrats seem to think America is changing, when in fact, America is as liberal as it ever was, but these nutjobs on the other side are dragging our political bodies further and further to the right kicking and screaming, using wedge issues, international deceit, and outright fraud to further their agenda.

The establishment of the Democratic Party is an entrenched failure, and has no ability to combat these people because it has no understanding of what they are doing.

Two words: Howard Dean. No one can say he doesn't understand what we're up against. I'm not saying he should be the nominee if there is a next time. I do think he would be the ideal pick for taking over the DNC.

And your use of the words "democrat chances" is troubling. The only people that use the word democrat as an adjective have no business at DU.

[buddysmellgood]

60. Don't you want to live in a democracy? In a democracy, you count the

votes. You don't roll over and take it in the rear in hopes that somehow you'll improve your chances next time. A recount will help investigate and explain how all of the anomolies came to be. I don't give a shit if Ohio is pissed. I'M PISSED. I WANT TO LIVE IN A DEMOCRACY.
Sabotage our chances in 06 and 08? Haven't we already sabotaged our chances? Didn't we already lose more than once?
If the exit polls are broken, we need to know that and fix them for next time. We need to find the truth.

[nashuaadvocate]

62. The Nashua Advocate

I had originally decided to limit myself to posting this notice in only three threads, but the site below has received such interest in the last 48 hours (almost 500 unique hits!) that I thought I'd post our news outlet's web address again in those DU threads which are covering stories we are also covering. So -- that address for The Nashua Advocate is, again,

http://www.nashuaadvocate.blogspot.com

Because The Advocate has only recently moved to this web address, Google.com does not yet list us. Please make sure to bookmark (and/or link) to the site when you first visit in order to readily access the site again in the future.

Keep up the good work, all of you!

News Editor, The Nashua Advocate

[stirringstill]

63. Better Luck Next Time

Kerry and the DNC should certainly choose their battles wisely. Kerry and the DNC should not run around screaming about the Fisher story but just read the letter sent to Ken Blackwell from the House Judiciary Committee.

http://www.house.gov/judiciary_democrats/ohblackwellltr12204.pdf

Answers must be given to the questions raised in this letter. The mysterious 3,893 Bush votes from Ghanna and the 19,000 Bush votes that magically appeared in Miami county count may have a reasonable explanation, but to date none has been given. At least for the Ghanna, the data cards were reported to have the correct number of votes on them. These instances strongly suggest that someone manipulated the vote count electronically, perhaps the GEMS tabulator. If this is true, were other precinct/county votes manipulated but not detected?

Remember in Florida in 2000, Fox news called the election for Bush moments after someone inserted an unauthorized card in Volusa Co. to boost Bush's vote number beyond Gore's reach. The perception of Bush winning the FLA election was rooted in part in electronic vote manipulation. The person and unauthorized card remain unidentified, but in the end Bush served four years as president, even though Gore won the statewide recount conducted by the newpaper consortium. Did Republicans electronically manipulate the vote in 2004? It would be nothing short of dangerous and cowardly and unpatriotic to not seek an answer to this question.

Read the letter! Crimes were committed. Laws were broken in Ohio. Damning evidence of deliberate voter suppression exists. Broken machines, too few machines, precinct consolidation and dissemination of disinformation in Democratic precincts were tactics deliberately used by Republicans hand Ohio to Bush. There will be vocal whiners about any recount that endangers Bush, but when criminal acts have been committed and when suspicious activity remains uninvestigated, how dare the Democratic Party not defend their own voters, regardless of who wins. All we have in a Democracy is our vote, and the Democratic Party should never, never roll over in fear of being called poor losers. "Better luck in 2004." "Better luck in 2006." "Better luck in 2008." The voters are the voice and the sole powerbase of the DNC. Next time will we wait in the rain for hours in line. (Especially when there's no wait in Republican neighborhoods, and OUR party doesn't seem to care.) Will we even go to the polls, or if we do perhaps we'll vote Green. No one wants the Democrats to rant about a half-baked conspiracy. What I want is a party that will stand up and when the time is right will break furniture if necessary to defend my voice. This requires more than just defense. I think most Americans (though clearly not all Republicans) would be disgusted by the way the Bush won Ohio and yet the MSM remains silent while the Republicans are only rewarded (FLA '00 and in Ohio '04 (perhaps other states)). Democrats should make Ohio a flaming tire around Republican necks. (Old women being called at home and told to go to the wrong precinct or deliberately forced to wait hours longer than a rich person, forced to wait in lines exposed to rain and cold, not knowing that their ballot is three times more likely to not even be counted at all. Republicans should be proud.)

I think the 3rd parties should be front in center until their efforts stall, and then I hope Kerry and the DNC will emerge from the shadows. Kerry should stand-up for every vote being counted, and a state-wide audit (recount) is the best way to assess whether the election night numbers are clean. Kerry is vulnerable to a Sore-Losermann style attack no matter how crafted the message and noble the intent. Thus, the DNC must protect Kerry--Jesse Jackson can only do so much. Kerry is key, but it is the DNC's responsiblity to hold Republicans accountable and to fight for our vote and for a just voting system. Risk and opportunity are twins.

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Peace Patriot]

79. Re: Troll Alert

I have been thinking this ("Troll!") throughout reading this thread, but I always hesitate to use it because I think it's wise to listen to all views, especially when it comes to strategy.

What I feel we have here in this post is a perfect demonstration of DNC thinking--fearful, uninformed, unprincipled, conniving, self-interested, blind, muddle-headed, gutless, and devoid of heart and soul.

It is this kind of thinking that has gotten us where we are today--with a fascist coup owning the presidency, the Congress, the courts, the military, the news media AND the voting machinery.

Germany 1934. One minute to midnight.

[ElementaryPenguin]

76. WTF?? No fraud?? Say what? I suspect you're MostlyJerking us around

:wtf:
:shrug:

[Pam-Moby]

81. recount

You make a statement that Ohio citizens will be angry about the cost of the recounts if fraud is not found. I ask of you, we have spent almost 200 billion dollars invading Iraq under the guise that we would find WMD. Over 100,000 Iraqi's have been killed, over 1,200 soldiers have died, and that count goes up by as much as 10 per day, we still have not found WMD, we still are displacing and killing innocent people almost daily. So if your statement had any meaning,
then I would think that them same Ohioans would be much more disturbed over that than a simple recount of a possible stolen election.

[plasticsundance]

86. This might have been already posted on another topic ... but

Kerry has joined the fight:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/story/258595p-221479c.html

"WASHINGTON - As the campaigns of John Kerry and President Bush filed their final financial statements of the 2004 contest, Team Kerry kept it going a little longer, adding its name to a lawsuit seeking a recount in Ohio."

[angrydemocrat]

84. Ohioan's Are Going To Be Pissed?

Well I know many who disagree. And all I got to say to any of those that would be or are pissed off. So fuckin what it is better to be pissed off than pissed on! This may be happening in there precious state but the fact of the matter this is not only about them it is about all Americans and every state so they might as well get the hell over it! And this shit about their tax dollars paying paying for it, well boo fuckin hoo many Americans have donated to help pay for these recounts and they are not the first state that has ever had recounts. I guess the dumbass's that are or getting pissed would rather bend over a little further and get screwed a little harder. These people need to need to quit being damn greedy self centered a$$holes and think about what's best for this country and the future of this country because not only is our country at stake here so are our own ,our children, and grandchildren's future as well.

[bunny planet]

85. Aside from the principle of the thing, and the outside possibility that

he might win, there is another reason for Kerry to get involved in the Ohio recount. He might just distract * and company from focusing on all the other scandals waiting in the pipeline to threaten their 'legitimacy' Here's a few:

1. Sibel Edmunds story is heating up
2. Valerie Plame investigation percolating
3. Halliburton investigation initiated by Bunnatine Green
4. Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo abuses being exposed by International Red Cross
5. Economic fallout boomeranging back to hit him in the ass
6. Cabinet members leaving who might start squealing
7. 9/11 families getting very upset about stalling of implementation of 9/11 commissions intelligence reforms
8. Iraqmire, Iraqmire, Iraqmire

If the Pillsbury DoughRove is trying to juggle too many balls in the air, and he has to fend off attacks on too many fronts at once, he might just drop one of those balls, and slip up somewhere along the way. A girl can dream can't she.

Let's play three card monte with the Repugs for a change, they've been doing it to us for years now. Keep their eyes on Ohio, and maybe they'll let their guard down about some other scandal on the horizon. At a certain point, this administration became so corrupt, that trying to keep a tamp down on all the potential leaks of criminal activities became like trying to squeeze a large piece of jello in your hand. Visualize it.

[plasticsundance]

87. The good thing

It looks like, unlike Gore, Kerry is asking for all the counties to be recounted in Ohio.

It might be good news. Timing is everything.

This relates to my above article that the Kerry camp has joined the lawsuit in Ohio.

[righteous1]

88. When your right...your right. JK can't afford to get involved in

any major sort of way. Politically he has much more to lose by alienating a large group of the American electorate not to mention Ohio voters who he will need in 2008 then he does to gain by entering into the fray. The people really concerned about this are a tiny minority, motivated and vocal, but tiny. He must show some involvement to keep us, his most devoted base, from turning on him. We are a small group but still crucial, we carry his water, are deeply involved in GOTV etc etc, and he can't afford to pi$$ us off. He'll do just enough to keep us mollified. But expect no significant action from JK or his people in Ohio; A high % of the general American electorate despise a sore loser and John Kerry will not put himself in a position to be called one

[pilgrimsoul]

90. John Kerry Knows What He's Doing

He's not going to insinuate himself into this fracas because he realizes it's not about him - it's about making sure everyone's vote counts. He is doing the right thing by hanging back until we know for sure what the vote count really was. And then, if it is determined that he DID win, he will step forward with the full legitimacy of the TRUTH to claim the presidency. If fraud is proven beyond a reasonable doubt and the evidence shows that Kerry did win (which I am certain it will), the American people will DEMAND that he unconcede. Only then will he do it because he has true integrity and humility. Until that day comes, John Kerry's honorable deeds and conduct will continue to remind the American people what being Presidential truly means.

Yup, that's MY president!

[angrydemocrat]

91. Amen!

Couldn't have said it better myself. John Kerry is a very honorable man that knows exactly what he is doing that I will support all the way.