Speculation on what would happen if fraud is proven beyond doubt

[AmyCrat]

Okay, so lets say six months from now Fraud is proven -- and it's proven beyond any doubt -- like watergate, it makes the whole country gasp.

What happens?

Bush is impeached, VP takes over.

The whole administration is impeached (is this even possible??) and Kerry gets to take the job.

New election? Same candidates? Different candidates? Big old do-over right back to primaries?

I'm honestly wondering about this. This is brand-new territory if a whole administration is proven corrupt and involved in Fraud. Who takes the fall for it?

Any other questions?

Any answers or speculation?

[gWbush is Mabus]

1. MEDIA LOCK-DOWN and some small plane crashes

[s-cubed]

2. Afraid not, the Constitution clearly spells out the succession,

the only way Kerry could be in the wh is if the Supreme Court ruled on it. (But I'm no constitutional scholar, so I may be wrong).

[billyoc]

3. There's no contingency for a do-over election,

the succession of the presidency goes right down the line if most of the administration gets booted.
h

[AmyCrat]

4. I thought about this...

problem is, if all the successors were elected in a fraudulent election, or appointed by someone who was elected in a fraudulent election, are they valid successors?

[billyoc]

7. They probably wouldn't get much farther than

Dennis Hastert. He wasn't elected by fraud, just the usual Gerrymandering that's been an American institutions for 200 years. :eyes:

[bemis12]

17. President Hasert?

That's hard to say out loud. But I suppose that's what would happen.

I disagree with those who say the Repubs wouldn't go along with an impeachment. The majority on both sides are honest enough men and women that they wouldn't stand for this.

I don't think that's just naive. Mayve we'll get a chance to see.

[Zan_of_Texas]

5. Fawn Hall or Oliver North or Andy Fastow get the blame?

I think patsies, willing or not, will be set up to take the fall. Some of those patsies may have been involved, but just like a drug kingpin doesn't dirty his hands with dealing nickel bags on the street, the big crooks with their hands on the levers here will make sure there are no fingerprints visible.

The noose needs to be very large to catch the big crooks.

[uncle ray]

6. crazy, but maybe not so...

Clinton (Bill!) for interim president while we hang *. in the meantime we organize a new fair election process. should be able to have proper elections in a year or so. and watch the freeps squirm.

[Kansas Wyatt]

8. A few months before the election

There was a United States Supreme Court case, where the media / press wanted the State of Florida to make their voter purge list available to them before the election.

In that Supreme Court case, Florida admitted that it had wrongfully purged thousands of voters in heavily democratic areas in the 2000 election. The United States Supreme Court did not do anything about who got screwed in 2000, but left an avenue to prevent the same problem from happening again.

Moral of the story: It's okay to cheat, but it will be a little harder to cheat in the future if your cheating is discovered.

[november3rd]

9. Nothing happens.

Congress drags their feet.

The only possible action would be popular. If the economy bottoms out -- if there's gasoline and food rationing this winter -- mobs could attack Congress and the White House is fraud is proven.

[forgethell]

10. Kerry is not in

the line of succession.

But even if fraud is proven in some instances, will the fraudulent votes be enought to overcome the majority that * got?

[IndyPriest]

18. I think A's question is about the vote as a whole

Not just a few thousand fraudulent votes here and there. What if it is shown that the ENTIRE vote was fraudulent?

Fraud is a criminal act. The problem with election fraud is that it's VERY rarely prosecuted. But what if the entire election can be shown to have been fraudulently done? Is it ONLY that the perps go to jail (Rove in cuffs: my favorite dream), or does the entire vote have to be re-taken?

[forgethell]

23. I don't know.

But I can't believe in a conspiracy so big that the ENTIRE vote is fraudulent. One in which certain significant counties in significant states, yes, I can beleive that. But so far, the evidence has been slim and unconvincing to me.

[tandem5]

11. its all about timing...

if it happens before * is "officially reelected", the other side will literally take up arms. The extreme lack of media coverage and then the sudden revelation that Kerry actually won will make it appear to them that we are stealing "their president." That’s another thing I've heard the phrase "my president" uttered many times by these people via call-in shows and letters to the editor - a telling insight in to their state of mind.

I actually hope for the latter - that fraud is slowly and convincingly proven over this next term. I think the country stands a better chance of survival if it goes down that way.

[Q3JR4]

12. If fraud is proven

beyond a shadow of a doubt, the American people will not see it that way (media influence and spin).

The most that would happen is that (before the inauguration) the results of a particular election would be in dispute which means that the house would pick the next president.

After the inauguration the President Succession Act of 1973 established the succession line of presidency thusly (assuming fraud is proven on the parts of the president and VP, both of them are not considered here): the Speaker of the House (Tom Delay) and then the President Pro Tempore of the Senate (Ted Stevens), both of which are Republicans.

Unless we can get the results thrown out for senate and house elections that are also in dispute, there isn't a lot we can do. The Supreme Court could rule on the issue again, and given decisions they've recently come out with slapping the usurper down as well as the fact that a few of the "conservatives" wanted to retire and haven't in the last four years, I'm going to assume that some on the court may think a little more about this issue before voting along strict party lines. Then again I could be wrong.

[Stand and Fight]

19. What are you talking about?

President Succession Act of 1973? You're talking out of your ass. The 25th Amendment covers presidential succession. "President Succession Act of 1973! Bosh. The 25th Amendment reads as follows:

Section 1. In case of the removal of the President from office or of his death or resignation, the Vice President shall become President.

Section 2. Whenever there is a vacancy in the office of the Vice President, the President shall nominate a Vice President who shall take office upon confirmation by a majority vote of both Houses of Congress.

Section 3. Whenever the President transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives his written declaration that he is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, and until he transmits to them a written declaration to the contrary, such powers and duties shall be discharged by the Vice President as Acting President.

Section 4. Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President.

Thereafter, when the President transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives his written declaration that no inability exists, he shall resume the powers and duties of his office unless the Vice President and a majority of either the principle officers of the executive department or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit within four days to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office. Thereupon Congress shall decide the issue, assembling within forty-eight hours for that purpose if not in session. If the Congress within twenty-one days after receipt of the latter written declaration, or, if Congress is not in session within twenty-one days after Congress is required to assemble, determines by two-thirds vote of both Houses that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall continue to discharge the same as Acting President; otherwise, the President shall resume the powers and duties of his office.

[Stand and Fight]

21. Current Line of Succession

Here is the Presidential line of succession, as specified by 3 USC 19:

1. Vice President (Richard B. Cheney)
2. Speaker of the House of Representatives (Dennis Hastert)
3. President pro tempore of the Senate (Ted Stevens)
4. Secretary of State (Colin Powell)
5. Secretary of the Treasury (John W. Snow)
6. Secretary of Defense (Donald Rumsfeld)
7. Attorney General (John Ashcroft)
8. Secretary of the Interior (Gale Norton)
9. Secretary of Agriculture (Ann M. Veneman)
10. Secretary of Commerce (Donald L. Evans)
11. Secretary of Labor (Elaine Chao, foreign -- she'd be skipped)
12. Secretary of Health and Human Services (Tommy G. Thompson)
13. Secretary of Housing and Urban Development (Alphonso Jackson)
14. Secretary of Transportation (Norman Yoshio Mineta - Democrat!)
15. Secretary of Energy (Spencer Abraham)
16. Secretary of Education (Roderick Paige)
17. Secretary of Veterans Affairs (Anthony J. Principi)
18. Secretary of Homeland Security (Tom Ridge - pending legislation could kick him to number 8 if passed)

I don't make note of those who will be taking over if the chimp is inaugurated January 20, 2005 because this is the CURRENT line of succession.

[KatieB]

13. Repugs control senate and house - won't impeach their own

[damntexdem]

14. My prediction: absolutely nothing.

The media will try to ignore it as far as they can. Then, when the news is out, it will be declared 'too late.' GOP hacks will note that Dubya
'deserves to win' because he got a majority of the popular vote -- conveniently forgetting how the Electoral College allowed Dubya to steal the 2000 election. Some minor election officials may be indicted and tried, but the big pols will be unaffected. Finally, we will be told to 'get over it.'

Did you think this was a democracy? Where do you think you are -- the Ukraine?

[jhgatiss]

15. I think if this happened - the "Constitutional crisis" of 2000...

would look like nothing in comparison.

[carolinalady]

16. Rove takes the hit--Bush walks--The whole thing gets dragged

out until its time for George to leave then Rove becomes a political analyst for Fox News.

[Karmadillo]

20. We march on Washington DC and shut it down until the

the candidate elected President is allowed to take office.

[Stand and Fight]

22. Precisely!

If any of us would put up with this shit and allow the fucking chimp to steal the presidency again then we've all been blowing smoke out of our asses about saving democracy. I would march and demand that justice be done by the real president being inaugurated.