Ohio.com news reporter says only 400 attended Ohio Rally :(

[New Earth]

http://www.ohio.com/mld/ohio/news/state/10340279.htm?1c

COLUMBUS, Ohio - About 400 people gathered at the Ohio Statehouse on Saturday to demand a recount of Ohio's presidential election or at least a look into Election Day irregularities around the state.

****Also just found this: http://www.fortwayne.com/mld/ohio/news/state/10340279.htm

[intheflow]

1. I listened online. Sounded like a lot more people than 400. n/t

[New Earth]

2. I wonder why we are getting so many different numbers??? n/t

[AnIndependentTexan]

5. same reason when Kerry had rallys and they would say lower numbers

to downplay it

[New Earth]

3. i listened online as well, and i thought it sounded like a huge crowd

[intelle]

26. Kick!

[intelle]

28. Kick

[libmeayer]

53. The 400

number is close to what a DU member who attended the rally reported earlier today. He said that there were no more than 700 people in the rally, and he said that this is a liberal estimation.
Of course some DU members flamed him and said not there were like 3000 to 4000 people.
I guess he was right.

[New Earth]

55. no, AAR reported there was about 1500 people

[libmeayer]

56. The Duer name was Danocrat and he

said there were 700 people present.

[New Earth]

57. i know

and the AP says 400. AAR says 1500.....another person who posts here who was there said it looked like about 1000.

No one is coming up with the same numbers, maybe we need to ask for a recount!!!!

[libmeayer]

58. LOL! good one.

Anyway, these numbers are still way below what we were lead to believe it would be in the leading days to the rally: TENS OF THOUSANDS.

[New Earth]

59. i blame half of it on the media

and the other half on the idiocy or apathy of some human beings.

[intelle]

4. I hate to say this but...

I do not believe MSM (in this case, Associated Press) accounts of rallys. The rallys in NYC during the week the RNC was there were grossly underestimated, for instance.

The bright side, though, is that they are reporting on this at all!

Thanks, Faye...

:yourock:

[New Earth]

6. i guess we'll know when we see the pics

and when more well-known DU members post their estimates.

[intelle]

9. Yes, waiting for the pics and accounts n/t

[Kralizec]

8. Agreed.

[Danocrat]

7. I was just there

It may be a slight underestimation but not by much.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2787060

[roseBudd]

39. I was there and my impression is that because of the extreme windiness

it was more simply because a lot did not stay for the whole rally, but because they were replaced by latecomers the space the crowd took up remained the same. It was truly cold and miserably windy.

[Danocrat]

40. Yea

I left at 2:30 and had to fight the wind pretty hard to get across Rich St.

[New Earth]

10. WTFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFf

WHY DO THEY ALWAYS INSIST ON INCLUDING ONE OF THESE TYPES OF COMMENTS??>??


John Ciprian, 46, who made a 75-mile trip from Dayton for the rally, said he doubts a recount would change the result but that the allegations critics have made should be investigated.

"I'm just trying to educate myself about this," Ciprian said.

[Imajika]

14. Actually, it makes the cause...

..sound more reasonable. I think that is a positive rather than a negative.

"John Ciprian, 46, who made a 75-mile trip from Dayton for the rally, said he doubts a recount would change the result but that the allegations critics have made should be investigated."

sounds a heck of a lot better than:

Joe Smith, 46, who made a 75-mile trip from Dayton for the rally, said he is sure a recount would change the result because, even though there is no proof of it, Bush stole the election.

Investigating allegations of fraud and evidence of irregularities is likely to attract a lot more support than making claims of stolen elections without offering a shred of proof.

Imajika

[skids]

11. Someone will take pictures.

Someone will take pictures, and hopefully get a wide enough shot to show more then 400.

[Danocrat]

12. Yea

There were plenty of people there taking pictures with digitals. They should be out soon.

[BrklynLiberal]

13. Just heard on AirAmericaRadio: 1500 people..

but they did say that there was virtually no coverage of the rally by the news media...

[New Earth]

15. so many different numbers. KEEP THESE THREADS KICKED!

[Iceburg]

19. Wait for the pictures ...

In Ottawa they first reported a crowd of 2500, then 7,000 then 15,000 when in actual fact there were 40,000 (low estimate) to 80,000 (upper estimate). If someone familiar with the vincity can provide the dimesnions of the area occupied it is easy to come up with lower and upper bound estimates.

[libmeayer]

54. This is BS

My brother live in Ottowa and he said that there were less than 4000 protestors.

[Iceburg]

61. Welcome to DU ... ask your brother to provide the dimensions

of the area occupied by the protesters Nov 30 on Parliament Hill.



The entire area in one the picture above ...(a snap of the "centre" crowd {left and right side are cut off}) covers minimally 500 * 700 feet. This photo is shot from the top of the stairs from the building known as Centre Block ... the depth of the photo (the occupied area) extends beyond Wellington Street. If each person occupies 3 feet squared, then 500*700/9 = 38,888 people.

That's a very conservative estimate. If we assume the dimensions 700x1000 ft (closer to reality), then the crowd size approaches 80,000.

Compare:



Here's a pic of the same area on Canada Day 2001 from a different perspective... it is shot from the opposite angle (from the Wellington Street pov). Note that the crowd is less dense and the area is significantly reduced due to the stage area. The stairs of Centre block are not visible as they are BEHIND the stage area. The forefront of this photo does not include Wellington street which is clearly visible in the first photo. The media routinely claim 100,000 for the Canada Day events.

More Pics & Video of the Ottawa Protest

100's of pics by Ottawa Independent Media posters
http://ottawa.indymedia.ca/en/2004/12/201.shtml

Quick Time Video at Ottawa Independent Media
http://ottawa.indymedia.org/media/2004/11/190.mov

Video of Police and Bush from CrooksandLiars.com
http://movies.ziaspace.com/Canada.wmv

[Iceburg]

67. Lib, I assume you are unable to refute the facts ...btw its "OttAwa"

[kk897]

16. I just got back, myself, after some errands...

Here's what I posted on a similar thread in GD:

I was there, too, and no way was there over 1K, and probably there were fewer than that. I will say that the main crowd of us, standing in front of the State House to listen to the speakers may not have been able to see everything going on. I kept hearing whistles blowing and cars honking, but that may have been the people on the street holding "Honk 4 Recount" signs (I had done the same earlier but went to listen to the speakers).

I was there for the whole thing, and Bob Fitrakis was the most inspiring speaker. He modified the Gettysburg address to fit the current situation. Plus he's just a really great yeller.

The crowd needed some pepping up, too. It was entirely too ruly for my tastes. It was all very polite and it ended right on time.

Palast was good, but his speech pretty short. I think maybe part of the problem was that everyone was freakin' cold---even though it was in the 40s, the wind was incredible, and he said something like, "I'd like to thank CASEOhio for inviting me to speak here in Kiev, Ohio." His stuff was his usual thing.

I think it was Susan Truitt who was telling us that we couldn't let it go at just a few rallies, that we needed to do more and really put ourselves on the line. There's going to be a protest of some sort at Blackwell's office (Palast kept calling him "BlackSick" ha ha) on Monday at 11. Cliff Arnebeck gave us an update on the legal issues, too.

The take away message, I guess, was that, as I've been saying to myself all along, the voting issue is also a civil rights issue, and that THERE WILL BE A RECOUNT.

Oh, one thing I wasn't aware of: the Delaware County BoE head said, after the recent court ruling against the TRO, that he would not allow a recount, in direct violation of the law. Curious, that.

Ask me anything, but know I'm bad with names.

EDIT: typos

[Danocrat]

17. Thanks for the validation here and on my GD thread

[rodeodance]

21. "that he would not allow a recount,"--The Delaware head board said

this? Confusing!!

[kk897]

23. Yeah, me too.

Cliff Arnebeck, while he was summarizing the TRO ruling from yesterday, said that the Delaware BoE guy said right afterwards, at a press conference, that he would not allow the recount. Arnebeck said this was in direct violation of the judge's ruling.

Like I said, it was the first I've heard of it. Think after I take a DU scan I'll see if I can find it in the papers from yesterday.

[roseBudd]

41. I was near the back so I could tell as people left because of the

miserable wind, that they were replenished by latecomers as people did continue to arrive. Therefore the space the crowd took up stayed about the same with some packing in, but the numbers were so fluid with coming and going.

I saw at least 2 people who had my BUSH CHEATED 04 graphic, and 2 people told me they were form DU. I had red theatrical blood on my hands, a black hoodie, 2 clipboards with flyers, 1 was pink and said Ilegally Blond and my sign was on silver insulation board and had a Ken Blackwell pic on it. I was handing out the Ken Blackwell RECUSE graphic. Got to http://somanmblst.tripod.com to download the high res version of the files.



and

[eowyn_of_rohan]

30. I heard that too, and at first was bummed by the low number

...because I had figured there would be more like 5-10,000, and I was also stunned that the guy being interviewed said this seems like the "beginning" of a movement, because we, here, have had the movement going for a month. But I started thinking, most people are not bloggers, and since they hear nothing on MSM, do not know 1/4 of what we have learned. We should be proud that we are helping to START this movement, and we shouldn't be discouraged by what seem like low numbers.

[DemGa]

18. AP Yahoo covers Ohio rally

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=5&u=/ap/20041204/ap_on_el_pr/ohio_vote

[intheflow]

24. I love how close-cropped the photo is.

Like saying 400 attendees when 700-1500 attended, because it only shows one person and a few others loosely gathered in the backgorund, it looks like a small group of fanatics. :eyes:

[New Earth]

25. that is utter bullshit

fuck the media. FUCK THEM.

[intelle]

27. kick!

[kk897]

32. again, hate to say it, but

this photo is pretty accurate. This person is standing along High Street, where I also stood, waving signs at passing motorists. That's about how far we were spread out from one another. Anti-war rallies in Columbus usually get more people, and the street-side presence is a little thicker.

[New Earth]

34. the cnn article has a better picture

huge crowed in front of podium, assuming that's where the speakers led the rally.

[kk897]

35. yes, that's where the speakers were, and the bulk of the crowd

the other picture is from the street. Hm, let me see if I can illustrate it:

--------------------------------------------------
HIGH STREET (protesters waving to cars)
--------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------- <-- Side walk
there's statues and plaques here
------- -----------
| main rally area |
| |
lawns | | lawns
| |


--------------STATE HOUSE----------------

North---->

[kk897]

36. sorry, that didn't really get it

it's okay up to statues and plaques, then it's more like

lawns------|----------MAIN RALLY AREA---------|-------lawns




----------------------STATE HOUSE-----------------------

[intelle]

37. Yes, the CNN picture makes it look like there are more protestors

thanks for pointing this out, Faye.

[Straight Shooter]

33. Wide-angle lens are only permissible when photographing the chimp

It's the wide-angle rule. Haven't you heard?

Why are you questioning, anyway? What are you, some kind of weak-kneed, waffling, commie pinko liberal fruitcake? Want a trip to Gitmo for Christmas?

/sarcasm off

[WilliamPitt]

20. Multiply the number x4 - x10

I wasn't there, so I cannot say for sure, but my experience with MSM estimates of protest sizes requires a new kind of math: Quadruple the printed estimate and then multiply by maybe.

Example: In 2002, Bush came to Boston for a fundraiser for Romney. Nearly a thousand people turned out to protest him, and two thousand more met in the Commons to march. The media later that day described the protester crowd as being 'in the dozens.'

[democraticinsurgent]

22. no more than 1500, i was there

a lot of people were coming and going due to the frigid weather, so you couldn't just look at the crowd as a static number. but to my eyes it looked like about 1000, maybe more, so 1500 is a good estimate given the transient nature of some attendees.

there is another (indoors) event at 6pm featuring jesse jackson and hopefully a longer appearance by Palast.

[intelle]

29. Kick!

[trudyco]

31. Next Rally and tonight they should hand out numbers

so we know exactly how many there are!

Then we can call the lieing liars on their lies!

trudyco

[bunny planet]

38. Does anyone remember when the Kerry rally with Bruce Springsteen was

held the week before the election (sigh!), CNN reporter bimbette had shots of the crowd in the background of at least 8K strong, and said there were a few hundred people there, then camera quickly panned away.
This is what they do, they downplay the numbers on these events. We never even got to see the crowds protesting Chimpy's 1st inauguration until F/911 came out. Let's get some picture proof of the real crowds at this Ohio shindig to Olberman or somebody.

[pgh_dem]

42. numbers inflation

Hiya,
Me and a friend made the drive up from Pittsburgh, and did see numbers of people coming and going due to cold and wind. I'd have to say no more than 700 or so at any given time, which kinda fits with my usual calculation of media coverage...about 2/3 of actual number of people there.
It isn't the beginning of the 'movement', but it really is the beginning of people going out in the streets and getting some national attention for it. We should be proud...I am.
Couldn't stay for the 6 pm thing, hadda jump right back in the car for another 3.5 hrs back.
KEEP HOPE ALIVE

[bunny planet]

43. Thank you, I wish I could have been there. I'm going to be at that 51

capitols protest if I can find the thread with the info.:-)

[intelle]

48. Another Pittsburgher!

I am in the Pittsburgh area (Carnegie), and didn't want to make the trip by myself since it was a hike. It took 3.5 hours, huh? I wish I had known that others from my area were going.

It must have been a great experience!

:hi:

[eowyn_of_rohan]

49. Yes, We were at the Kerry -Springsteen rally in Madison, WI

...only 1/2 block from the stage, in fact on the porch of the house next to the one Bruce went to for a beer! Some early MSM reports tried to downplay the number at first, but there were at least 80,000 people there. In addition to the people in the photos that filled the street going up to the capitol, there were thousands more on the cross streets who could not make it further into the main area. It was fabulous and chokes me up to remember it, now.

[bunny planet]

50. What they showed of it on TV looked awesome. The turnout there is one

of the things that has convinced me that this vote was messed with. That many people do not come out to see a losing candidate. And the warmth and solidarity in the air there was contagious even all the way here in NJ,it came right out of my set, I also watched the video on line of Bruce's introduction to Kerry, and Kerry's speech.

MANDATE my ass!!!!!!!!!!!! No way * was really elected.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

52. It is so cool to hear that it inspired people all the way to NJ :)

It's like today, we all could feel the Ohio vibes even though most of us couldn't be there. Re the Madison one, you have that right about the solidarity and warmth. The Reptilicans scoffed that the turnout was for Bruce, not for Kerry, but that is not true. We were pumped about this well before we even found out about Bruce. In 1992, about 50,000 showed up for the final Clinton Gore rally before the election. So it is kind of a "thing" here to give them a MASSIVE send off from Wisconsin, right before the election. BTW, Rep. candidates NEVER come to MAdison. Not since the 70s, I do not believe. very amusing.:evilgrin:

[madison2000]

62. That rally was one of the most hopeful days of my life

I volunteered and ended up working with security to screen the front 3000 people. Well, actually I just told them to turn their cameras and cell phones on in preparation for the men in black. The crowd was really diverse, lots of union groups, veterans, teachers, students. It took about two hours and we were in a parking lot on east Wash. Then they closed the screening and we went into the crowd around 11am.

One of the other volunteers tapped me on the shoulder and said "turn around". I turned and saw wall to wall people for four solid blocks back to the capitol building- I just burst into tears. It was a weekday/workday, and Kerry didn't get there for 2 more hours. Then Gov. Doyle got up and said there were 80,000 people. It was really exciting to see Kerry and I almost got to shake his hand afterwards. But the view when I looked back toward the capitol and saw thousands of people was something I'll never forget.

And BTW although it was announced that one of the foo fighter guys was coming a week ahead of the rally, it wasn't announced that Springsteen would be there until about 2 days before. I'm really don't think that it was widely known. The crowd was for Kerry, Springsteen was just a bonus.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

69. "Springsteen was just a bonus"

I loved reading your recollections of that day. How can we ever forget that GORGEOUS sight and the feeling in the air...

[roseBudd]

44. a pic of the rally

[Danocrat]

45. Yea, that's what I saw

That's about the bulk of it but add another 100 people to the left, 100 to the right, and about a 100 to the foreground and that's it.

[roseBudd]

46. No way more behind that point, I never got that close

and I was walking around handing out the Ken Blackwell RECUSE graphic. This photog chose to shoot the reflection on the building, not the depth of the crowd. I wasn't standimg near any of the people in that photo

[roseBudd]

47. In fact that photo doesn't even show 1/3 of the depth of the crowd

due to the photog wanting to get the reflection in the photo. I also think that was an early shot. it wasn't so sunny near the end and the sun was almost cut off by high buildings so it got a lot colder. The end had the most people even though a lot left beacuse of wind and cold. In fact I could only get somewhat close to the front by going around the sides of the crowd.

[pgh_dem]

51. Shelby County

Hey, to anybody else who was there today...what was that about Shelby County throwing out their tabulator/paperwork whatever....I was in the back and this was said before they turned the speakers out toward us...
Anybody have any info on this?
KEEP HOPE ALIVE

[4democracy]

60. In 1965, only about 600 people changed the course of history

by begining a march from Selma, Al to the state capital of Montgomery.

The Selma-to-Montgomery March for voting rights ended three weeks--and three events--that represented the political and emotional peak of the modern civil rights movement. On "Bloody Sunday," March 7, 1965, some 600 civil rights marchers headed east out of Selma on U.S. Route 80. They got only as far as the Edmund Pettus Bridge six blocks away, where state and local lawmen attacked them with billy clubs and tear gas and drove them back into Selma. Two days later on March 9, Martin Luther King, Jr., led a "symbolic" march to the bridge. Then civil rights leaders sought court protection for a third, full-scale march from Selma to the state capitol in Montgomery.

On Sunday, March 21, about 3,200 marchers set out for Montgomery, walking 12 miles a day and sleeping in fields. By the time they reached the capitol on Thursday, March 25, they were 25,000-strong. Less than five months after the last of the three marches, President Lyndon Johnson signed the Voting Rights Act of 1965--the best possible redress of grievances

http://www.cr.nps.gov/nr/travel/civilrights/al4.htm

I think the numbers don't matter as much as the symbolism of the act.

[WiseFawn]

63. No, media is lying

This is one of the reasons why my brother came late, to see the crowd before he got there. Media did the same thing with the vote lines, showed pictures of a few white people standing in a gym waiting. But I just got to see a video of the real lines and I stood in one for over two hours. The crowd was large. When I was in it, I could not judge accurately. But my brother said there were at least three thousand. There were four chartered buses. I'll wait for free press photos, but I believe my brother's estimate completely! Each TV channel here reported on the protest in the Short North about issue one that happened later in the day and they said about six hundred protesters were there. I laughed and screamed at their coverage. A few seconds on our rally with such a downplay and then followed with trying to make the amendment one larger. Pathetic!!

[jagsd01]

64. CNN is interviweing Jesse Jackson NOW

[jagsd01]

65. JESSE IN 2 MINUTUES ON CNN

[KaliTracy]

66. Migrating crowd

Got there a little after 1:00. and was there, toward the back, which was much farther back than the picture that was posted here -- at one time, more people joined behind me (not a lot, at least 25 or so) -- but the crowd WAS migrating. It was cold. Other people came as some people left. My friend took pix from the stairs and in the crowd, I have a request for him to upload them so we can post them.

Part of the problem was because of the extreme wind, and no barrier around the microphones, it was quite difficult to hear many speakers. I think this contributed to people leaving early.

Another problem is getting the word out! Beyond te internet, who KNEW about this? In Columbus, what was posted? Where? I would really like to know how to contribute somehow and help get the word out about the 51 state protest next week -- anyone have information regarding this?? I only have heard that it's being planned -- but it definitely needs to go out to the public in many, many ways.

Tracy

[Iceburg]

68. Don't underestimate "by word of mouth", personal emails et al

that is how the protest in Ottawa & Halifax unfolded. There was no MSM involvement in the planning. It was strickly by WOM and the internet. It was 33 degrees F in Ottawa that day and most protesters hung out for 6 or 7 hours. Of course we are used to those temperatures ... it was positively "balmy" by our standards in Ottawa.

[vol5516]

70. 400??

Where was everybody?? I thought there was supposed to be thousands of people going to the rally?

[mark-in-cincy]

72. revised photo times

I had a mixup on the times of the first two crowd shots -

the first pic was about 1:30pm,
the 2nd about 2:15pm

[mark-in-cincy]

71. Photos of Columbus rally Dec. 4th

My guess at the crowd was 500-700. People came and went during the rally. I saw people leave through out. It was pretty cold especially if you were caught off guard not dressing for the relentless wind. But even during the last speaker I saw some people arriving.

If anyone wants to use these pictures feel free, I give my permission.

Mark In Cincinnati


2:30pm


3:15pm