Feds investigate dems in E. St. L...appears to be local, but does...

[EMunster]

...anyone know how Bush did in East St. Louis? The numbers would be interesting. It's pegged as local corruption. But the FBI might be stumbling onto something they didn't expect.

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/metroeast/story/4E54CC8E9062C29C86256F600070D230?OpenDocument&Headline=FBI+probe+may+involve+more+than+vote+fraud+allegations

[ClintCooper2003]

1. Bush got 42% in 2000 and 44% in 2004, according to...

uselectionatlas.org.

[booley]

3. ok

I am a bit amazed he did that well.

if the dems were cheating they didn't do a very good job.

[booley]

2. I don't know but it couldn't have been well

St. Louis is heavily dem and Shrub didn't do well here.

East St. louis is predominatly black and poor. If Shrub did do well that would amaze me.

Unfortunatly corruption is inevitable whenever only one political party predominates.

IF the republicans have shown themselves to become more corrupt on a national level the more power they gain, why wouldn't dems be corrupt in a local area where you got the same situation?

My worry is that the con pundits will somehow spin this until they say that this shows all dems are all guilty of voter fraud. They've been dying to do something to distract from all the evidence that the repubs did have a national strategy to cheat the vote.

[fearnobush]

4. And thats the big question and perhaps reason as to why the

DNC is so lame in responding to GOP fraud. Could we not ever have a fair election in this country? I often wondered levels of fraud. It is obvious that the last 2 cycles have brought in a new era of massive GOP fraud while DNC fraud had dropped off greatly since the 1960's. Today I fear the Dems are unwilling to challenge RNC fraud based on the past and on the much smaller examples as stated in origonal post. The reality is we live in a country with a fuedal voting system. Each county in every state is it's own kingdom with it's own king when it comes to voting. We need a federalized fair and accurate voting standard. To hell with states rights when it comes to voting.

[EMunster]

5. The point is, if they're that corrupt do the local dems care who they

throw the election to? 44 percent seems a helluva lot for an area like that.

[krag]

6. These Are Attempts

To intimidate Democrats from pressuring investigations of the fraudulent '04 election.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

7. Oh Man this is horrible. Just what we need n/t

[HeeBGBz]

8. I live in Missouri but I'm not sure what county E. St Louis is

The article mentioned St Clair county. It seems to have some interesting results.

St Clair election results

Check out the variances between the presidential votes and votes in some of the other races.

U.S. President And Vice President
John F. Kerry, John Edwards DEM 1,841 37.1%
George W. Bush, Dick Cheney REP 3,098 62.4%
Michael Badnarik, Richard V. Campagna LIB 14 .3%
Michael A. Peroutka, Chuck Baldwin CST 5 .1%
Ralph Nader WI 7 .1%
Total Votes 4,965

U.S. Senator
Farmer, Nancy DEM 1,762 35.6%
Bond, Christopher (Kit) REP 3,140 63.5%
Tull, Kevin LIB 27 .5%
Griffin, Don CST 18 .4%
Total Votes 4,947

Governor
McCaskill, Claire DEM 2,004 40.4%
Blunt, Matt REP 2,888 58.2%
Swenson, John M. LIB 50 1.0%
Wells, Robert CST 19 .4%
Johnson, Kenneth J. WI 0 .0%
Total Votes 4,961

Lieutenant Governor
Cook, Rebecca McDowell (Bekki) DEM 2,119 43.6%
Kinder, Peter REP 2,610 53.8%
Ferguson, Mike LIB 102 2.1%
Hillis, Bruce CST 24 .5%
Total Votes 4,855

Secretary Of State
Carnahan, Robin DEM 2,212 45.3%
Hanaway, Catherine L. REP 2,520 51.6%
Davis, Christopher LIB 115 2.4%
Ivanovich, Donna CST 35 .7%
Total Votes

[demgrrrll]

9. East St. Louis is in St.Clair county but that also includes Belleville

and Swansea and some other little towns around that area, maybe Maryville too. There was always a color line between Belleville and East St. Louis that has begun to dissolve in the past few years but they were burning crosses on black peoples yards when they moved to Belleville just a few years ago. Kind of gives you an idea of what the breakdown of the vote might be.

[Eloriel]

20. EStL is in Illinois -- Those are Missouri figures

There's no Kit Bond or Matt Blunt in Illinois, I can tall that you fer shure.

I actually grew up in St. Clair County, Illinois. Great place to grow up. EStL is -- sigh, how can one explain it? Possibly the most blighted urban ghetto in the country. The last time I was in downtown EStL was in the mid 1980s (maybe it's better since then, I dunno), and it looked -- literally -- like a war zone.

It sits along the Mississippi River, just across from the beautiful St. Louis skyline. For decades certain polluting industries (Socony Mobil, Sauget Industries) dominated the place but in the 50s and 60s it was a very nice, thriving small town. I remember shopping in its little dress shops looking for Prom dresses and such when I was in h.s. in the early 1960s. I don't really know what happened to it, but it eventually became like 100% black, political and other corruption skyrocketed (I'm not suggesting causation there but unfortunately too many of the African American politicos were no better than the whites they replaced), and the infrastructure -- physical and social -- totally fell apart. It became not a safe place to even THINK of going.

Edited: Also, I haven't read this particular article (read another yesterday or the day before) and I don't really see any connection here with the larger issues of what we're concerned with. There is SO much corruption in EStL -- gambling, mafioso-style stuff, graft and so forth and so on. I doubt that Bush's FBI is on the trail of vote fraud that ties in in any way with our concerns.

[Helga Scow Stern]

10. This needs to be watched.

Let's hope the feds aren't going to start investigating the few claims of dem vote fraud instead of paying attention to the masses of evidence, so that the klanmedia can start screaming about dem vote fraud.

This has got to be a strategy to expect from them.

[Helga Scow Stern]

14. This makes me so nervous, I wrote to the reporter.

Doug Moore. He seems an honest sort, from the way he covered the story.

Here is what I wrote (thanks to saracat for reference to Adam Stone):

Dear Mr. Moore,

I read your story and it kind of gave me the creeps. Will you please keep writing about what is going on with this investigation? Your reporting seems honest and thorough, so I am counting on you to keep us informed.

The reason it seems scary to me--and maybe I am just being paranoid--is that there are so many more instances of vote fraud that the FBI has been called to investigate that seem much more problematical than this. I hope the FBI's motive here isn't partisan. I could just see Karl Rove planning this as plan B if the noise about vote fraud got too loud.

Thanks for your reporting, and I apologize if I am being overly cautious, but in these times I don't know how else to be. I have been writing to the OSCE board of international monitors asking them to take a closer look at election fraud in this country before they publish their final report. I was dismayed to read in their preliminary report of 11/4 mention of exactly this kind of fraud--by Democrats registering dead people, etc.--as a main concern. They mentioned claims of civil rights violations (by Republicans), but then said they had no evidence of it.

To try to change their opinion of this, I sent them, as well as many other reports and evidence, this letter written to the FBI. I got it from Adam Stone, a reporter from New York.

Sincerely,
Helga Scow Stern
Ojai, CA


Adam Stone [e-mail]

914 962 4748 x280

Robert Mueller, Director
Federal Bureau of Investigation
c/o White Plains Office
222 Bloomingdale Road
White Plains, New York

Dear Director Mueller:

On behalf of myself and other concerned citizens of Westchester County, New York, I implore the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) to urgently and intensively investigate evidence of widespread conspiracy to tamper with votes and suppress voting in the 2004 Presidential election.

We request that the FBI immediately send additional agents to Ohio and
Florida, key electoral states where there are indications of gross tampering and suppression.

In Ohio, for example, in 29 Cayuhoga County (Cleveland) precincts,
93,136 more votes were recorded than there are registered voters. In
addition to suspicious electronic vote counting, there were significant problems in Ohio with the mechanics of voting, such as malfunctioning machines and problems with poll log books.

It has been reported that J. Kenneth Blackwell, Ohio's chief election
official and the Ohio Bush-Cheney campaign chair, ensured there were ample voting machines in Republican areas and a shortage of machines in low-income and African-American areas, as well as areas expected to have a high turnout of young voters. In spite of an increase in voter registration in Ohio, fewer machines were said to have been provided than in 2000.

Werner Lange, a Youngstown pastor, said at hearings held November 13 by the Ohio Election Protection Coalition that less than half of the usual number of voting machines were available in one African-American community. "This," he said, "caused an enormous bottleneck among voters who had to wait a very, very long time to vote, many of them giving up in frustration and leaving." He estimated that 7,000 votes were lost to Senator John Kerry in Youngstown alone, due to insufficient voting machines.

Carol Shelton, presiding judge at a precinct in Columbus, said voting
machines were insufficient, that she called for more machines and was sent one, "which did not make a dent in the line...This was a clear case of voter suppression by making voting an impossibility for anyone who had to go to work or anyone who was stuck at home caring for children or the elderly while another family member voted."

In Florida, initial counts showed 237,522 more votes cast for president than there were people casting ballots. The state altered the vote count to eliminate county discrepancies after independent researchers began to point out contradictions. Keith Olbermann, reporting for MSNBC, found: "On the same Florida Democratic ballots where Bush scored big, people supported highly Democratic measures- such as raising the state minimum wage $1 above the federal level. This indicates that only the presidential voting was rigged."

In addition, an unknown number of Florida voters, particularly in
African-American communities, were effectively disenfranchised by long
waiting lines and faulty equipment. There is no reason for these
conditions to have existed in Florida after the experience of 2000 other than because of official conspiracy to suppress the vote.

Discrepancies between exit polls and tallies from electronic voting
machines leaving no paper trails indicate the need for investigations in Minnesota, New Mexico, Nevada, Wisconsin, Colorado, North Carolina, Iowa, New Hampshire and Pennsylvania.

We request that the FBI interview, in addition to public officials,
employees of firms involved in electronic voting in the 2004, the most
prominent including: Diebold Election Systems; Election Systems and
Software; Science Applications International Corporation, Sequoia Voting Systems; and VoteHere Inc.

And, we ask the FBI to determine whether national voting laws have been violated and to what degree, if any, there was central direction of vote tampering and vote suppression.

Sincerely,


Nick Mottern

[Hamoth]

17. Get em all

Get both Dems and R's. Anyone who tampers with the election is wrong. I won't take a partisan stand on something like that. If anything, it shows how messed up our system is.

BTW, this guy has a rap sheet like a Diebold employee of the month! Why is he in our party?

[HeeBGBz]

11. oops i should be looking at st clair illinois

East St Louis is Illinois.

Having trouble finding the numbers now.

[thanatonautos]

12. One more republican local fraud claim ... part of a pattern?

If Republicans start claiming fraud, just to win a few local
contests, which seems to be happening in more than one
state now, it seems they're running something of a
risk.

Having a little bit of fraud in an election is like being
a little bit pregnant. Once it's established there was fraud,
on either side, the whole election, the whole process
becomes open for criminal investigation.

In the 1960 election, the Democratic counterthreat to
expose Republican fraud in Illinois if the Republicans
went after Democratic fraud there was what finally
caused the Nixon campaign to shut down their massive
legal campaign to grab the election.

It seems to me what's happening here is either bad strategy
on the part of local Repubs, or they are telegraphing to the
national Dems what the response will be to any revelations that
come out of the Ohio and other recount efforts.

And the Repubs have the media ... a depressing thought.

[Vinnie From Indy]

13. This is classic dirty tricks

Does anyone doubt that if these guys stole the election they have a plan that includes tactics like this. Prepare yourself for a series of carefully planned incidents, misdirections and falsehoods. These guys are not winging it where they don't have to and they have already proved that they have the US MSM on a leash. I am certain that their counter measures are well planned and operate on a sliding scale based on the size of the current threats to the exposure of their nefarious activities. In addition, they will pull out all the stops if the situation elevates to a level that threatens their hold on the office. Think national security or homeland security. The ONLY check on their power at this point is their grasp. We need to appreciate the ground we occupy in this struggle and use it to our advantage in every situation. The ability of the NeoCons to capture or control the MSM over the last decade is an awesome thing to behold. If their is any doubt about their planned counter measures, watch or listen to the right wing mouthpieces like Rush and Hannity. I will wager that they will flog on this story heavily on Monday. If we understand that the attacks will come and they will increase in severity as we progress it lessens the impact. I take this as a good sign because it means they felt it necessary to blunt momentum for this issue. It also provides an incident for Rush and Hannity to inject into idiot America.

[consciousobjector]

15. Luckily for us

everything that * and Co. do decends into chaos. They're pathetic bumblers and their attempts to divert attention will in the end trip them up.

[Helga Scow Stern]

23. Yes, and the FBI refused to investigate request the Ohio complaint.

http://www.wbai.org/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=4340

FBI Refuses Complaint Alleging Ohio Voter Fraud
(by Don DeBar, Dec 3, 2004) The White Plains office of the FBI today refused to accept a complaint detailing allegations of compound felonies of voter fraud, conspiracy and other offenses in connection with the Ohio conduct of last month's presidential election.

A group of election activists called Transparent Democracy - including civil rights attorney Michael Sussman, Greenburgh town supervisor Paul Feiner, and four others - attempted to present the complaint at noon today while dozens of protestors carried signs outside supporting the call for an investigation.

The smaller group was denied access to the FBI's Westchester offices at 222 Bloomingdale Road in White Plains. Organizer Nicholas Mottern had previously arranged with the office to present the complaint. However, when they arrived in the building's lobby, he and the others were informed by building security that the FBI had instructed management not to allow them access to the Bureau's offices, and that the FBI would not send a representative down to the desk to accept the complaint.

In response to the Bureau's action, Sussman, Feiner and Mottern signed into the building register and left the document with the desk clerk for delivery to the Bureau. A local cable news station later reported that the FBI refused to accept delivery of it.

In response to the Bureau's actions, the group called another rally for Wednesday, December 8 at noon to demand that the Bureau accept the complaint and investigate the allegations of fraud in time to prevent a possible theft of the election. Wednesday's rally will likewise take place at 222 Bloomingdale Road in White Plains.

Video of the attempted presentation of the complaint, and some footage of the rally, is available at www.debar2004.com/video/120304fbi1.rm

[RubyCat]

16. There's another interesting thread on this

It may not be an investigation on Democrats.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x117360

[lwesty]

18. I wrote a thank you :)

Dear Mr. Moore,
Thank you for reporting on what may be more election fraud. With all the allegations about possible fraud on the part of Republicans before and after the election and very little media coverage, it is refreshing to see this is finally becoming an issue and getting appropriate attention. Allegations against the Republican Party are widespread and numerous:

http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20041013/NEWS03/410130378
http://www.klas-tv.com/Global/story.asp?S=2421595&nav=168XRvNe
https://voteprotect.org/index.php?display=EIRMapNation
http://www.house.gov/judiciary_democrats/ohblackwellltr12204.pdf

I was wondering when the Republican party would start to make their own claims of fraud. It is, after all, an obvious and expected ploy against the Democrats to deflect attention from themselves.
However, in the interest of fair elections, if there are viable claims of fraud on both sides of the isle, we should cast out the election results of Nov. 2, 2004 and have a re-vote. Preferably one with a verifiable accounting of the ballots.
Sincerely,
xxxxxxxxxxxx

[keepthemhonest]

19. oh so in all the fraud that happened in the 2004

election ,the only ones coming down so far are the democrats.What is this democracy that we live in? why are'nt the feds grabbing all those voting machines and looking into the repubs.:mad:

[genieroze]

21. This is Rovian BS. eom

[Eloriel]

22. Folks, don't waste much of your time on this

Okay, I've read the article. Not much different than the other one I read. This is just local stuff, IMO has nothing to do with the larger picture. Believe me, EStL has been the site of SO much corruption for SO many decades that the feds probably have a laundry list of stuff they'd like to or could go after -- maybe out of actual law enforcement concerns and maybe just to harrass.

IMO this isn't in any way tied to any of the larger patterns of vote fraud we're concerned about. Really.