Kerry strategy, unpopular, but probably right.

[Truman01]

This was a response to another thread, but I think it is important enough to make it a thread by itself. What do you guys think?

As much as I understand why people on this board and in the Party wanted Kerry to fight, I understand why he did what he did and reluctantly support it. Planetc, for a non-politico, your analysis is pretty right on. Gore had a beef, 350 -+ votes in a large state, and they still made him look so bad that he can't really run again.

Kerry looked at the results here and had these thought (my guesses): 1. If they stole it, they did a damn good job. 2. A conspiracy that big, WILL come out on it's own eventually, but no way will it come out quickly enough to change the election. 3. With a 3.5 million person apparent loss I will look like a fool to challenge the election. 5. With 130,000 in Ohio, it is unlikely that I will succeed in this cycle.

Kerry, I'm sure, is counting on us. People like us all across the Country who are not going to let this go. If it is there like we think, it will come out with devastating consequences for the Repukes. If it isn't, Kerry doesn't suffer. Right now he is a political force when we have very little political force. I'm sure he is doing what he can in the background.

Let this thing play out. Do what you can. Don't get dejected if the results are too slow for you. This is a long marathon, not a sprint. They probably won this round, probably cheated to do it. Let's make good long term decisions and we will win.

TC

[politicasista]

1. Kerry can still expose Bush for the criminal that he is

I just had to rant cause I am frustrated, but I am going to wait and see how all this is played out. Bush will leave the WH in disgrace either way it goes.

[Truman01]

6. Remember revenge is best served cold and well thought out.

* will have his day, and if we find good evidence of massive fraud, it will be total disgrace. If this Nationwide election was stolen, it is silly to think it can be hidden. Patience is definitely a virtue here.

TC

[Laelth]

16. I beg to differ.

I think it's quite naive to assert that the theft of this election will ever see the light of day. We never proved fraud in 2000. We never proved fraud in 2002. What makes you think 2004 is any different? There's no evidence, whatsoever, that Bush or the Republican party will be punished in any way for this crime.

I'll believe it when I see it.

-Laelth

[seito]

23. Look what we did in 2004

The largest grassroots effort in American history. Do you think we are going away????? Hell no.

We may be the minority party, but we are the majority of Americans and our voices will be heard.

The truth always comes out in the end. Just remember, we have the majority of the free world on our side for this one.

[madison2000]

2. Politics is a contact sport

Thank you. I agree. This morning I heard the following from
Jesse Jackson on Air America radio:

"Politics is a contact sport: You vote and then you keep fighting"

If our democracy were in good health our votes would have been enough to win. But our democracy is flawed, corrupt, diseased. It is not beyond hope but we cannot sit and complain passively and expect that things will get better. We have to fight to fix it.

[righteous1]

17. If JK had won , would you feel the same way?

[madison2000]

22. If he had won I think we'd be sitting back waiting

to see what he was going to do for us instead of talking about what we should do next. And that's wrong, we should always keep up the fight, because even if he won he'd be up against such strong opposition from the Reps.

[Catamount]

31. If he won?

He did win-in a huge way! Please don't forget that!
If you turn shrub's numbers around, they would be Kerry's. The exit polls showed us that!
Like the rest of us, including the world, Kerry was cheated in so many ways.
We must fight to expose this- however long it takes- or resign ourselves to be annihilated.
We must also remain united among ourselves, like THEY are.

[pick_a_dilly]

3. hear here . . .

we MUST be relentless in hounding these criminals out of power . . . no matter the time or effort it takes.

they are bent on destroying everything great about our nation . . . AND we must show the same resolve in STOPPING the bastards. not (just) for ourselves --- i have a five year old daughter and am very fearful of the future she will have if this cabal is allowed to perpetrate their disasterous plans.

OHIO is just a start . . .

KICK . . .

[newyawker99]

60. Hi pick_a_dilly!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Iceburg]

4. Well stated Truman...

Kerry's strategy will triumph in time over rove's/bushco's tactical maneuvers.

[99Pancakes]

37. Evil is ultimately

very stupid. That is how they will get caught. Ignorance and arrogance are a lethal combination.

[pilgrimsoul]

5. Kerry is intelligent enough to know that...

there is more than one way to fight. Just because he's not in front of tv cameras every day railing about the election fraud doesn't mean he's not doing everything he can to expose it. The magnitude of the fraud and complexity of the corruption behind it requires a stealth approach. I have no doubt that Kerry is very active behind the scenes, and is casting a wide net for Bush and his cronies. My gut says that the end result of this fishing expedition will be well worth the wait. I'm not discouraged - in fact, I'm more hopeful and optimistic every day. It's no easy task to take down a corrupt regime. I'm grateful we have John Kerry to step forward in this particular point in our history to fight the good fight. Our freedom depends on it.

[Farmgirl]

7. I concur with what you're saying Truman01...and

I'd like nothing more than to have this election overturned. I'd like nothing more than to have Bushco. impeached, impuned, tried and put in jail. Who says we can't have wishful thinking!

But in all honesty, this will most likely play out over the long haul. I keep wanting to post to the "I Believe" message -- and it's not that I don't believe Kerry won, or the Bushco and repugs stole the election from A to Z...because I know that with all my heart and soul. But with the repugs in power from A to Z and with the MSM deep in their pockets, right now this movement is but a growing snowflake. The Bushco. folks will go to all extremes to stay in power. These are not folks with honesty and integrity. These are cowards who can only feel good when they hold onto power and greed, even it means to lie, steal, cheat and kill. Kerry won't stoop to that level and he shouldn't. And, because he wasn't willing to stoop to their ways, he "lost" and people are angry that he's turned his back on us.

From what I read about Senator Kerry, he DOES know what he is doing and he IS thinking about what is best, not only for his political survival, but for the long-term survival of our weakened democracy. We can judge all we like; we can second guess all we like; but until we've "walked a mile in his moccassins", I think we should refrain from being so deeply critical of his actions (or apparent lack there of). Just my .02

:kick:

[knowbody0]

8. i agree

kerry's plan to go to iraq in january stunned me. he is involved and does fight for us. as a lawyer, senator and warrior, he is wise, the greater good appears to guide him.

[seito]

24. thank you for your post

"the greater good appears to guide him."

You have put into words what I feel so passionately. John Kerry is a man that will always fight for the greater good.

[myschkin]

9. You are right!

[whalerider55]

10. could be

i've posted recently my own questions about the strategy- which i've been afraid is actually not so much a strategy as, well, i wouldn't actually know how to characterize it.

i also posted on Weds night (think it was Wed) a brief summary of a conversation i had with someone who was on the mgt team at the Dem Nat Con, with ties to the DNC and the Kerry folks here in MA. I was not encouraged by what i heard, and shared that (sorry, don't have the thread link handy, but it's out there- something like no dnc cavalry...

so, here are my thoughts.

i think that the "conspiracy" was highly decentralized, and that although it is Rovian in MO, investigators working within the system will have a hard time pinning the tail on the white house- the bushes have been playing hide the money for three generations now, and are adept at it. I think 2000 was a scramble for them (they tried some techniques in FLorida that didn't put them over the top) and something they ultimately couldn't pull of without SCOTUS; i think 2002 was a practice run of the strategy in Georgia and Florida, and i think it bore full fruits in a half-dozen or more states in 2004.

i think that the dems have been several steps behind, and have responded without imagination and forethought to much of what has gone on here. Simply put, the dems played by one set of rules (more or less) and the pugs didn't play by any rules.

the complicating factor here for me has been, since election night, where i think that Kerry's concession could have taken place later than it did- the next day, for example, when all the stories began to surface- and perhaps framed the issue in a way that could have resonated. such as- "we need to ensure that every vote that wanted to be cast was, and every vote counted, because that is the american way- and i'm concerned that people in the community (a reference to the impact of theft downticket) who have actually decided might not get the representation they voted for"

i am away that they filetted gore like a catfish; i still believe that Kerry, who is a political shark of the highest order (albeit a little timid at times) could have framed the issue away from himself- and when the pugs started bitching, turned their argument inside out- "no mandate without a vote count, right?"

but that isn't really my point, nor has it been for some time. I just feel that the larger issue is our ability to trust the whole system of enfranchisement. I think all dem, community, whatever leaders shoulda jumped on this from day one.

more about this if you want to engage... and please understand, i'm not afreeper, and remain completely optimistic about good coming from this for America

whalerider55

[Truman01]

12. People on this board will be surprised to see me say this,

but I believe fraud existed. I do not believe that it was directly coordinated on a national level by anyone in the administration.

They would be foolish to do so. The President of either party would be foolish to have anything like this closely associated to him. Nixon had a God complex that * doesn't have.

I think a "conspiracy" like this is more like this. The state chairmen are certainly aware well in advance as to which states are vital and which are a lost cause. Along with all of the normal activities the State chairmen and officials in the state will do almost anything to deliver their state for the President. Doing so in a tough an uncertain election shows their abilities and will get them favor up the ranks.

Its a lot more fun to think that Rove was pulling the strings, but much more likely that the body of Repukes were acting separately for a common cause.

This fraud won't be easy to catch, but is catchable. Secondly, it won't be connected to the White House, but if the fraud was big enough it will discredit the President and his party.

Politics isn't simple, it is very, very complex. We might like to find a single conspirator who paid 29 million with a single check to fix the election, but that is just simple fantasy. This fraud is much more complex.

TC

[mary195149]

13. Kerry will come through for us!!

This video really keeps me going. Kerry says alot with his words and also with what he can't outright tell us. Kerry knows there is major corruptness going on with the bushies. I am sure we will see as this plays out that Kerry will, as always, be there in front fighting to save our country. He is a true hero!!
If you haven't watch this video lately, do so.

http://www.johnkerry.com/petition/everychild.php

[Cherie59]

11. Well said

[tandem5]

14. I agree n/t

[Eloriel]

15. Kerry and his team looked at the results

and didn't have a fucking clue.

And probably still don't.

[New Earth]

18. I guess we'll know in about a week

and then i'll be happy for everyone to stfu about it, either way.

[Carolab]

21. How could that BE?

This is a pile of stinking shit. This party and Kerry should be fighting Ohio. I'm sorry. This is just pathetic. And any of you who support him in dropping this are too.

[LittleClarkie]

32. Dropping it?

I don't see where he's dropping it.

Fighting it in the way you want? No, he probably isn't.

But he's not dropping it.

[tex-wyo-dem]

19. Very much agree...

Better to have a Senator with high standing in the Senate to fight for us than one that's been cut off at the knees from a failed election challenge. I can't help but think that even if Kerry did end up winning by a recount, his ability to govern would be greatly hindered.

Totally agree that uncovering this fraud is not going to happen overnight. I still cling to a faint hope that Kerry will be the one inaugurated, but this would require massive fraud to be exposed that would 1.) put major doubts in the minds of the electorate who actually won the election and 2.) implicate Republican leadership. Unfortunately, I don't see this happening before Jan. 6.

Let's not lose sight of the real goal: To assure our elections are fair, faithful and transparent. Those who cheat will lose in the end.

[Last Lemming]

20. If you don't trust Kerry, then trust Al Sharpton

Look I would be prepared to say that the Democratic Party were looking under the bed while the rat got out the door but there is something much, much more going on here. I mean, maybe Kerry wouldn't say much but Al! And Howard Dean? Do you think he'd just be standing aside saying, "no problems here"? And what about Michael Moore? He shows up on TV wearing a suit. Michael Moore! When has he ever? And when they asked him why Bush won, he says, "He got more votes." Moore was there with comaerNo, no, these guys are up to something. They figured out last time that you can't the noise machine with more noise. Something else. . .and whatever it is.. .they are not letting ANY outsiders know, and that includes some clueless Democrat at a coctail party. These guys at least figured it out in 2000 and were absolutely dead certain with the Max Cleland loss.

They are planning something and I just hope to God it works.

Someone above thought that the fix was not at the level of the White House because Bush and those guys aren't so stupid as to actually do the fixing. . .etc. Well 1. We do know Bush is that stupid and 2. What was that very unusual election day "campaign appearance" by Bush in Columbus, Ohio. . .

[90-percent]

25. bush modus operendi

is quite similar to al quaeda as far as the voter fraud is concerned.

what a remarkable coincicence!

-85%

[Patsy Stone]

26. I have been screaming this

but inside, and here.

Where the FUCK is Al Sharpton????????

I posted this over on another thread, but am I to believe he just "forgot" about voting rights? Not in a million years.

Who is NOT speaking, and who took so long to speak, speaks volumes.

[BlueStateBlue]

40. Yes, the silence is deafening

And Michael Moore in the penguin suit... Don't you think he's trying to tell us something? Maybe it's just wishful thinking on my part, but I believe.

[Patsy Stone]

42. The list is too damned long.

As you said, the silence is deafening. There's no way that Jesse just happened to notice, there's no was Sharpton is missing this news, there is no way that MM was serious, about anything on Leno.

How? How could you suddenly believe that in four weeks, he's ready to move along, and "can't beat 'em, join 'em?"

No, way. Conyers's step is, I think, the first in a series. Until this week, the Congressional Black Caucus has been silent as the grave. Not normal.

[BlueStateBlue]

45. The suspense in killing me!!

I really, really, hope we're right!

Can you imagine if they really pull this thing off? It'd be WAY better than a win on November 2. This way, you get a frog march!! :evilgrin:

[Patsy Stone]

46. Tom Petty

The waiting is the hardest part.

Go read the "Kerry's Real Strategy" Thread, see if it gives you comfort. Also, read Sun Tzu "The Art of War." It'll all make more sense. Finally, on a thread I posted called "The Perfect Storm?" you may find some like-minded individuals. Keep the faith, Blue.

[another5bdem]

55. where exactly is the kerry's real strategy thread? n/t

[Patsy Stone]

56. Here...peace.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=111634

[flyarm]

51. i have said this before several times..m moore...

i was a kerry delegate to the florida dp..at the convention michael moore came to the fdp breakfast..and he stood in front of us and said..he and the country would not abandon us in this election like they all did in 2000..he said we were left out on our own and no one fought for or with us, and that would never happen again.

He said what he said and he meant what he said..he was very serious , and so was everyone else who came to speak to us..

yes we had it stolen again..we down here all know that...but it is alot easier to get this figured out and show the fraud in a lot smaller state like ohio..and of course we have the jeb factor that ohio doesn't.

do not count all these people out..and do not underestimate jfk..only a fool would!

[whalerider55]

29. Lemmy-

you may be obliquely referring to my previous post...

you'll get no argument from me about *'s stupidity, but aside from his petulant tantrums and vindictive snits, i have seen no evidence whatsoever in four years that he has anything to do with what is happening in his own administration- he is the puppet, money calls the shots, and the stringmeister in this generation is Karl Rove.

And Rove is many things, all of them unsavory, but he has the feral intelligence of a hyena.

this one won't be tied to them. it may originate with Rove, it fits his MO, but i agree with someone above who suggested that all you have to do is wink and these state chair thieves would filet grandma to climb the pug ladder to riches.

the big issue is enfranchisement, and short of walking out of the next congress (actually, the next drop-dead day for me is in early january, when all of the certified and "recounted" electoral votes go up to the senate for certification, and at least a half a dozen reps will rise and ask a senator ro sponsor their petition to set aside the vote until a thorough investigation has been done)there will be no voting reforms that will harm an incumbent- Dem or Pug- anytime in the next two years, unless Bush falls or Kerry rises.

so i just don't frame it anymore as Kerry's problem. I have had the opportunity to vote for Kerry since 1982, I have worked with his office on several community projects, briefed him. I have watched his politics evolve now for over 30 years, heard him speak with VVAW... i trust my instincts on this; I trust what I have heard now from three people who have been involved with his campaign, one of whom also served as part of the mgt team at the Dem Nat Con.

That is this: there is no evidence of strategy beyond prepping for 2008. And that, btw, apparently has a lot of people ripshit that he left $$$$ on the table at election day. Personally, I no longer make a judgement about that.

so in the end, i fully agree that Kerry needn't be out front about this... but i also see this is about a real democracy, and i am deeply ashamed that leaders from both sides of the aisle have chosen to remain silent in the face of all the allegations being made about voter fraud. and they don't even have to say we wuz robbed; all they have to say is "we need to make sure that every vote cast was counted." and if that poses too much of a "political risk" for them, then we are in far worse shape than i could have imagined.

I hope beyond hope that something big is happening... based on what my gut tells me, i'd be happy with something small... like a pulse.

finally, to the friend who posted early on about the sweetness of revenge- are we going to do to them what they've done to us- rig democracy so that it produces a predictable outcome? does that make us as a nation better off? now if you wanna talk about tar and feathers, i'll toss a log on that fire...

flame away, friends, it's only just an opinion.

whalerider55

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nadinbrzezinski]

58. Been saying this from WORD ONE

[EFerrari]

28. Kerry Strategy might be right but falls short of democracy

TC, I'm very much with you on the three throughts that may have spurred this course of action.

There is, however, no excuse, no rationale for turning one's back on vote fraud.

At that point, it's not about one man. At that point, it's about democracy itself.

(Yes, I understand that if an ideal doesn't fall off a table and hurt when it hits your foot, it doesn't work as a political strategy.)

But I seem to remember leaders with b@lls, like JFK, who federalized the AL National Guard and stood up to wrong. How much more easy would it have been for John Kerry to say, "Well, it looks like I lost. And many of my constituents are worried about the process. Let's clear this up so we can go about the people's business."

How hard would that have been? How many handlers and speeche writers and lawyers FAILED to come up with something so simple?

[whalerider55]

30. welcome

welcome, welcome...

nice post; you said in fifty words what took me 300 above. you have a future here, my friend...

whalerider55

[EFerrari]

33. Thanks, whalerider

I think the word you wanted above was "reaction" (as opposed to strategy). Reaction, although human, by definition means not forwarding your own plan.

I don't know what to think about the Dems(am Green since 2000 but Dem by DNA). We/they pulled together an amazing coalition for this election. Strong enough to win, not strong enough to resist the nearest rabbit hole when there's incoming fire.

It seems not to be about cowardice at all but more about guarding the bird or two in the hand. And the GOP knows that. We'll always protect those two birds before initiating some upheaval with unknown or unintended consequences.

Because this puts all of us in a bind. We lose on the margin, and the grassroots are more and more contrained by law and by what looks like national sentiment. Maybe not this time.

[seito]

34. I appreciate your point of view,

but I respectfully disagree. I think that by stepping out of the spotlight, John Kerry has facilitated an investigation of unprecedented depth. The investigation is not about John Kerry, it is about Truth and Justice. As such, the media has no way to spin out of this one. The truth will be heard. John Kerry has not, nor will he, turn his back on the fraud that was committed in this election.

[mary195149]

35. This is a great article to show Kerry's strength & persistence

He will come through for us when it's time!!


http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2004/0409.sirota.html

[seito]

41. Thank you for the link

I had not seen that article before. It really does show John Kerry's true colors.

[99Pancakes]

38. Yes, I agree.

I have been standing behind this line of thought since I first posted as a freshly cooked stack o' pancakes.

[EFerrari]

43. "Facilitate" is an active verb

Please show me how he did anything of the kind.

I don't mean to trash John Kerry in any way except one. He failed to attend to the basic premise of his run for election: our secure vote.

I admire the man for many reasons. And while admiring him, I can also see his shortcomings -- shortcomings that are making the struggle to verify our vote much harder today.

[seito]

44. Facilitate definition

From Websters 1913 dictionary

To make easy or less difficult; to free from difficulty or
impediment; to lessen the labor of; as, to facilitate the
execution of a task.

As I said, by taking a low profile stance, John Kerry has allowed the recount and investigation to remain focused on finding the truth. He has made the task "less difficult" by denying the repukes their spin. Now, who does the media have to blame...Those damn bloggers and meddlesome third party idealists.

News reports are already surfacing, subtle hints indicate that something is in the air. One ABC reporter actually stated that "Bush may not have won the election." The truth will come out. Americans love a good drama, and drama we shall have.

[EFerrari]

47. Sorry

Conceding defeat does not facilitate the notion that the winner is still unknown.

[seito]

48. Hmmmmm

I will have to meditate on that. :eyes:

[EFerrari]

49. Thanks, it's just that

the biggest issue seems to me to be, what happened?

That will be really hard to know. But, as in Hamlet, the "knowing is all".

How can any of us try to forward any campaign until we know this process is at least as clean as it can be (okay, I'm on a learning curve :)

EF

[LittleClarkie]

54. However

the problem was that no one was going to buy that notion. As it stood, it appeared that Bush had won the popular vote quite handily.

Kerry conceeding took the emphasis off of the result, and onto the process itself. Whether Kerry intentionally took this route can be debated, but we are able to spin the proceedings as an interest in correcting the process to make it as fair as possible. It's easier to fly under the media spin machine that way.

It's as if we had to conceed the "winner is unknown" issue to go after the "vote is broke" issue. If we find enough broken votes, the "winner is unknown" will resurface of its own accord.

[EFerrari]

57. That makes sense to me. n/t

[emcguffie]

36. Kerry's strategy, or his promise?

I have no idea if this is true or not. But according to that guy who posts the "voice from the white house" pieces on www.tbsnews.org, Kerry had an agreement with Bush, that if it looked like Bush won, he would concede. Something about Kerry's father having been in the CIA.

I didn't understand it there, and I'm not presenting it as true, or false. Just that this has been put forward. The link:

Well, gee whiz! I went looking for it, but it looks like the site has vanished off the face of the internet! There is a journal they keep, it is still up, but the main publication is gone. except maybe it is still there in Korean or Thai or Cambodian that I cannot read.

Maybe it will be back tomorrow. tbsnews.org. I swear it was there.

[Blue_In_AK]

39. Skeptical

It was there, but I think this theory has been pretty well debunked.

[pat_k]

50. Would have preferred that he fight, but...

I would have preferred that he fight, but if he had not conceded, I think more of us would be on the sidelines, watching the "professionals" duke it out.

As it is, We the People must stand up for ourselves.

Perhaps, in absence of a leader to serve as the spark, and with time so short, we won't be able to get enough momentum, but I am not sure that we haven't already reached a critical mass.

Despite the near-universal silence on the problems, in mid-November, 27% percent of Democrats believed the election had not been conducted fairly and 14% of all voters had little confidence that the votes were counted accurately (37% indicated they were "Somewhat confident." Only half, 48%, indicated they were “Very Confident”)--http://pollingreport.com

We’ve made incredible progress in the past couple weeks. I have no doubt that every day, more people are coming to see that suspect election results cannot be tolerated. Olbermann’s blog entry for today is a testament to how much we have shifted the climate.

[garybeck]

52. I'm not giving up

until Diebold and ESS are out of the election business.

As far as Kerry goes, we all know he's watching this very closely behind the scenes. He doesn't have to say a word about it. It is better this way. The media is leaving him alone.

He's left us a few clues that he is aware of what's going on. In his video, he clearly stated that there were problems in the election and he's going to work to fix them.

The best chance of this working is to keep the media out of it. They are obviously in bed with the repubs. The longer Kerry can keep out of the action the better.

IN the meantime, we must not stop or slow down. We got it this far.

The best scenario is that all the litigation and/or recounts result in Kerry being named president, without him ever getting involved. That way it appears to be much more non-partisan. And for the next 4 years, we won't be hearing people complain about how Kerry did this and Kerry did that. It's regular people like you and me, and lawyers, who are forcing the truth to come out. When the truth becomes clear, it was obvious what has to happen. And if we made it happen, not Kerry, it will be much better.

-Gary

[Democrat Dragon]

53. It reminds me of something (supposedly) from Sun Tzu's

The Art of War (Okay, I didn't read it, but someone who did told me some of the neat stuff in it) I think it was that if you are weak, act like you are strong, if you are strong, act like you are weak.

BTW, all major DNC election campaign guys should read books like this, as well as Machiavelli and some books regarding marketing and business strategy. Rove has probably read them hundreds of times.

[planetc]

59. He loses nothing by keeping quiet, but he may gain much if the tide turns

Hi, Truman--

Er..thank you for starting a new thread because my time is so short I didn't have time to look up the other one.

As comments on your comments: "1. If they stole it, they did a damn good job." Yes, and no. The electronic theft was a newish method of stealing an election, but it looks to me as though they did NOT do that good a job, and the most comforting insight that I have here is that the Bush administration's mendacity is matched only by its incompetence. There are people all across the country who know what went on, and who may be talking right now, or warming up to talk, or talking secretly with the FBI for their own safety.

"2. A conspiracy that big, WILL come out on it's own eventually, but no way will it come out quickly enough to change the election." I still think enough of it may come out in time to flip Ohio. That's all we have to do--flip Ohio. Kerry has the electoral vote and a lot of ongoing investigations, and some birds singing to the FBI, and we have ourselves a new president, actually elected this time.

"3. With a 3.5 million person apparent loss I will look like a fool to challenge the election." On the morning after the election, he would look like a fool. But not after the dirty laundry starts to get hung out. And the dirty laundry has started to flap in the wind. As near as I can tell, LOTS of Americans know instinctively that there was something the matter with this election. What might be a horrible shock to Wolf Blitzer will come as no surprise at all to millions of ordinary Americans, and not just us. The national media are incredibly stupid right now. We need to educate them.

"5. With 130,000 in Ohio, it is unlikely that I will succeed in this cycle." But I think Kerry grasps, and I certainly grasp, how small a number that really is, especially stacked up against *what we already know about what went wrong in Ohio.* Ohio has it all--gross vote suppression, the press locked out of a vote count because of a phony security alert--you have read the Conyers letter, haven't you? They pulled out all the stops in Ohio, but this time, a lot of suspicious people were standing around watching them.

If we get the national media looking at this with half the zeal they devoted to White Water, we have a situation so embarrassing that it might be enough to tip the balance, even in a Republican -controlled congress. Have you noted on this forum that some of the best information we have had on just how bad this administration is came from Republicans--Richard A. Clarke, Joseph Wilson, John Dean? Republicans who can put the country and the constitution ahead of their party. As near as I can tell, the administration is having a hard time controlling its own party in congress, and I wonder whether some of the mass of resignations is not an indicator that the smart people are getting out to avoid the tar and feathers that are coming. I like to think so, anyway.

Thanks everybody for the great discussion.