Truth is stranger than fiction!!

[ClintCooper2003]

I'm sick of everyone saying, "oooooh, that's too complicated to be true" regarding Madsen's theories.

Remember what the great George Soros wrote about John Kerry in an article that appeared around the country in a variety of newspapers: "Kerry is nuanced because reality is complicated."

Reality is complicated! The way in which this election was stolen is multi-faceted and COMPLICATED. Deal with it.

[autorank]

1. Amen! Dismissing a massive conspiracy because it is a massive

conspiracy is flawed logic. I'm not sure what the exact nature of the plot is but I'm sure it is multifaceted and complex. Let's stay reality-based and continue the search. It is NOT time to MoveON.

CORPORATE AMERICA controls the media and we get MANUFACTURED NEWS.
CORPORATE AMERICA now controls the voting machines and we get MANUFACTURED ELECTIONS.

[jamboi]

13. Amen bro! Watergate was plenty complicated as was Contragate.

That is typical MO for Intel ops.

[autorank]

18. Thanks for all your work in this regard jamboi!!!!!

CORPORATE AMERICA controls the media and we get MANUFACTURED NEWS.
CORPORATE AMERICA now controls the voting machines and we get MANUFACTURED ELECTIONS.

[electropop]

29. Iran Contra would never have sold as a novel.

It's just too far-fetched. I mean, please. CIA flying drugs into the US, missiles into Iran, and cash into Nicaragua? It's just silly. Who would have believed it if Kerry had not uncovered the facts and forced the perps to talk?

[Democrat Dragon]

2. You say it like it is!

The MSM during the debates complained that Kerry was saying things too complicated. That's because things ARE complicated. Not to mention freepers praised Bushirohito for being SIMPLE.

[ClintCooper2003]

4. I thought Kerry was rather concise and to the point...

only the "biased" reporters said he was being too wordy.

[DoYouEverWonder]

24. Kerry can speak in whole sentences

that's way too complicated for the talking airheads.

[MarkusQ]

3. Not complicated, incoherent and inaccurate

It's not that Madsen's theories are complicated. I'm a computer programmer, I deal with systems a thousand times more complicated every single day. Complexity doesn't bother me one bit.

It's that they are incoherent, nonsensical, self-contradictory, and (to the extent that we have any external evidence at all) false.

That's what bothers me.

--MarkusQ

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Spiffarino]

12. Chill on MarkusQ, Clint

Search his posts. He's an honest person so why be uncool over a difference of opinion?

[jsamuel]

15. Well, he could at least have said why they are false, not just say theyare

He was asking for it.

I am going to post - its all false - without backing it up and I don't expect a snappy responce at all...

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jsamuel]

20. In annother topic I said lets wait to make a judgement and he said

IT'S ALL FALSE and couldn't back it up one bit except for arguments coming directly from Feeney's mouth. THAT IS SUSPICOUS.

[DoYouEverWonder]

25. Then hit the alarm button on him

that's what it's for. Let the mods watch him. They usually do a good job of getting rid of the riff raff.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ClintCooper2003]

7. Additionally, it's an ongoing investigation. During Watergate...

there were MANY twists and turns that seemed incoherent because it took a while to get to the real story. Madsen has been ENTIRELY UPFRONT that some of his ideas haven't panned out. But the core story is there and if this affidavit is, in fact, true, IT TRUMPS EVERYTHING!

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MarkusQ]

27. Then you've been reading the wrong threads

Yes, you are correct, I am a Republican, I have never denied it. But I am an American first. 90% of my posts have been positive about the fraud research, but not about the conspiracy theories (which I suspect are being floated in the first place to discredit the real issues).

The election was stolen. They allocated more machines to precincts that voted their way than to the ones that voted against them. They programed/calibrated machines to bias things in their favour by mis-registering votes. This is clear.

But they didn't write a $29 million dollar check, pass around photo copies, and then refuse to pay the people so they could "go public" by grafting the vote fraud claims on to wild accusations they had been making for years.

--MarkusQ

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[reality_bites]

30. You're wasting your time...

Like me, you have a low post count. In the wacky 'Madsen Thread World', we can't possibly say anything important.

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ddd3]

50. Latest Updates and Answers to many questions!

MORE HERE:

http://bradblogtoo.blogspot.com/2004/12/response-to-bev-harris-questions-on.html
"I was concerned that folks might confuse Curtis' story with the broader picture Madsen was painting, and I have seen no supporting evidence to suggest that the two stories are in any way related. Not to say they aren't. I just have seen nothing to suggest they are..."

Please use the above link to see the differences between Curtis' affadavit and Madsen's article:

"Curtis claims that it was the fact that he thought such a program could never be used -- since the code would likely be discovered -- that he didn't give much thought to the election-rigging issue, and was far more troubled by the various acts of espionage that he had witnessed at YEI.

He told me that it was not until a story last summer on CNN which mentioned that source code for electronic voting machines was not being inspected -- and was instead being given to states already-compiled in the machines -- that he sat up, took notice, and recalled what he claims that Feeney had asked him about in October of 2000.

None the less, Harris' main point about being able to minimize or disguise the code so it may not get noticed is valid and I agree with her. Particularly since so much of the E-Voting machines do not have their source code inspected before being installed..."

[Nordic]

5. Also .....

It's not like they invented all the clandestine money channels overnight. That shit's been going on for a generation, or more.

They've had the operation in place since way before Bush Sr. was even vice president. They're just using it now for their current projects.

Just look into Adnan Khashoggi and check out his long career. It'll make your hair stand on end.

[Straight Shooter]

11. Adnan Khashoggi

No kidding. When I read that name in Madsen's most recent entry, my eyes bugged out about 3 inches and my skin felt like something slimy just crawled all over it.
________________________

I've got a question, maybe Clint or Nordic or someone wants to address this, and I'm really really tired so I'll posit this and quit for the night, leave it for wiser minds to chew on:

That major rolling blackout last year (was it this year?), I've always thought it was a test. Now, here recently I'm learning about blackouts and odd power outages at many locations during the election and I'm just wondering if the original blackout was engineered as a "dry run." (Has anyone created a graphic comparison with how often power outages occurred in those same places prior to and after the election?)

Remember after that freaky blackout, bush said he would take care of it, and then absolutely nothing was done of any consequence. Like so many things surrounding bush's tenure in the Monkey Palace, it just dropped off America's radar screen.

Does this bother anybody else besides me?

________________________

Okay. I'm out of here. It just turned 11 p.m. PST and I've got to get up early.

It's been a blast. Can't wait to see what tomorrow's "Day of Infamy" will bring.

[life_long_dem]

31. You wrote:

"Like so many things surrounding bush's tenure in the Monkey Palace, it just dropped off America's radar screen".

Exactly, the MSM are the culprits. How many hours did they spend covering the Scott Peterson investigation.? How many hours did they spend covering voter irregularities?

*Co. figures no one has time to dwell on their criminal behavior. People are too busy filling out job applications, going to interviews, going back to school(re-training), going to the unemployment office; or working 2-3 jobs, going to the welfare office, worrying about their family, worrying about their children in the military, and worrying about everyday concerns, etc....

Perfect plan, take the people's mind's off of the real story.

O.K. I'm done, my frustration's just got the best of me, and I had to vent.

[shraby]

56. I considered power outages way last summer as

a way to help them win the election, and brought it up on du but no one discussed it. I thought it would be used because machines need power to run. No power, no voting.

[stirringstill]

44. Madame Butterfly Ballot

When Madsen dropped that Theresa LePore used to work for Adnan Khashoggi, I fell out of my chair.

[Chelsea Patriot]

48. LePore was the stewardess on his private plane.

LePore goes a long way back.

[RaulVB]

9. Those elements questioning Madsen...

Have a clear agenda and is not a democratic one, IMO.

[Spiffarino]

14. I'm all about the fraud, but

...this Madsen thing seems over the top.

I'm a programmer, too, and I think the real fraud story is there. All this other stuff is deflection. We need access to the machines and the code. We need logs to see if there was anybody dialing-in to the GEMS tabulators on election night or in the weeks/months leading up to it, and find out why they were in there and what they were doing.

The important thing is not to split hairs arguing about who's guy is better. We need to focus our attention on getting hand recounts in key states where the numbers don't jibe. Infighting is pointless and it's exactly what the freeps are trying to get us to do.

I don't want to help them any more. They may own the government, but they're not going to stifle me.

[ClintCooper2003]

16. The internal software in the machines was ALREADY programmed

to change votes, as I understand it.

[The Backlash Cometh]

23. Yes. Which means that absentee ballots were an unknown factor.

There was no way that a programmer would have known ahead of time how many absentee ballots would come in. So, if there was another Republican move that encouraged double-voting, then weird things could happen. Such as Bush getting way too many votes in certain precincts.

[RaulVB]

17. To be skeptic is healthy...

I/m with you on that.

I just think that Madsen is onto something.

I mean, why play a fool in front of millions?

[Spiffarino]

43. I hope he's not right

I would freak out if they could get away with something that convoluted and diabolical. I'm not saying they wouldn't if they were convinced that they could; it's just the idea that they could pull so many strings. It would indicate that they have virtually dictatorial control over the whole system. That would truly be chilling.

[AntiFascist]

55. I agree that the focus right now should be....

investigating the fraud, not investigating Madsen's theories. Let Madsen do his own thing, but don't make him the focus of all our attention. When aspects of his story are discredited then, if we are putting all our eggs in his baskets, we get discredited as well, not to mention disenchanted. On the other hand, Madsen is working on a very intrigueing story that is potentially much, much bigger than Watergate if it pans out. If we put just a little intellectual capital betting on him, and nothing more, then we are not risking too much, but could still win a big payoff.

[nashville_brook]

10. that's always been my problem with occham's razor

just b/c something is simple doesn't make it right

[sharman]

21. 9/11

Just finished reading The New Pearl Harbor, and I gotta say, 9/11 is IMO the best circumstantial evidence of election fraud.

There is so much to be suspicious of with 9/11, and clearly it took a wide-spread cabal to pull off. If those jokers are capable (are immoral enough and have the resources) to do 9/11, I'd be shocked if they didn't rig the election.

And, to bring it back to the subject at hand, it is a huge, interwoven net. There is only one degree of separation between Kashnoggi and Teresa LePore, for chrissake

[tngledwebb]

26. The evildoers been stealing 'lections for years, here and abroad

and even worse, Nam, Cambodia, etc. But 9/11 was the coup de grace. November's little stunt was gravy.

[Shalom]

46. Like You Say, 9/11 Was A Fraud....

But the beauty of it from the Bushitler's regime's perspective is that IT DID NOT REQUIRE A MASSIVE CONSPIRACY WITHIN THE US. This is because they knew Bin Laden was planning it, and all they had to do WAS TO LET IT HAPPEN.

However, when you make a pact with the devil, you never know what he's going to do...I believe the reason the POS AWOL cokehead looked so fucked up in Florida on 9/11 was because they were expecting to get hit, but the nature of the hit exceeded and surprised them...But they had no choice but to roll with the punches.

Let's face it: it's not because the fascists are so smart at pulling of this shit - they are sloppy, and messy, and make it up as they go along. They did it with Kennedy's execution, they did it with Iran-Contra, they did it with 9/11,and are now doing it with election fraud. In each case, they left a trail a mile wide, and relied upon the media and the American people to disbelieve it PRECISELY BECAUSE IT WAS TOO HORRIBLE TO IMAGINE.

[trudyco]

52. So is Osama Bin Laden even real?

What if he is cooked up? George Sr was eating with his brother, right? They were doing drills in the WTC prior to, right? Engineers claim the building shouldn't have buckled from jet fuel fires, right? Now one of the connections with Madsen is a guy who does flight simulation software?

Didn't I hear recently that the Pakistanis stopped looking for OBL because they decided he was dead? Rather convenient after the fact. At the very least, before the election, I swear the guy on TV was NOT OBL. The gestures looked more American than Arabic to me. He was too fat, too. (Interestingly one of the guys I think connected with Fisher story specialized in bodylanguage or something like that).

It was just another excuse so the Republican Fascists could say people voted for the shrub for security reasons.


Very scary.

trudyco

[The Backlash Cometh]

22. I know complication.

Just trying to understand what has happened in my community regarding a potential civil actionable matter well enough so that I could explain it, has taken me six years. No kidding six years.

So, Madsen's nightmare is something that may take some time for people to absorb. Mainly because people don't really yet want to believe that our country is so crooked. You break that wall, and the rest will get easier.

[Straight Shooter]

32. "people don't really yet want to believe our country is so crooked"

Many people still support Nixon.

People are gullible. Instead of becoming educated, they've become indoctrinated.

Believe me, they don't want to know, and refuse to believe, how dirty American hands are in the affairs of the world. Most Americans want to believe that we are morally upright, pure and just, as we go about saving the world.

Who wants to look in the mirror and see sh*t on their face? That's about what it takes to face the truth about America. It took me a while to come around, and believe me, the loss of faith in what this country represents isn't easy to deal with.

As the saying goes: Governments exist to serve corporations, and the people exist to serve the government.

Once people "get that," the rest falls into place. They just can't believe that their existence means nothing to those in power. They just don't "get it." This is why bush doesn't attend funerals of murdered soldiers. (Yes, murdered.) He doesn't give a damn. We should call him "Rhett Bush."

Edit punctuation

[merh]

35. Bing, bing, bing, we have a winner folks!!!

"Mainly because people don't really yet want to believe that our country is so crooked."

The refusal of the majority of the public to believe that the weed that would be king and his evil minions are crooked is why he received so many damned "legitimate votes". Those of us who have recognized the BFEE's evilness cannot understand why he got any votes at all, but in reality, people just refuse to believe how destructive they are.

"You break that wall, and the rest will get easier." If we can break that wall, if we can get the truth out, maybe we can win our nation back and try to undo some of the harm we have caused the rest of the world.

[plasticsundance]

36. Connecting the Dots of the Bush Crime Family

Occam's Razor is not about purely keeping it simple, but rather, to get rid of those things not needed to explain a model/theory. It does not state to disregard making assumptions, but only to eliminate those not needed for the model. In the case of Clinton Curtis story, it is still developing; therefore, it cannot be decided upon one way or the other.

It could very well be that there are many valid storyline tracts in the election fraud, which I am convinced, took place. It then becomes a case where you have various models/theories taking place, and I think this is a valid assumption to consider. I think multiple venues were taken in the stealing of this election.

There are too much surrealistic underpinnings to our political process and media machine to make me believe that something strange did not happen during the 2004 elections. In fact, everyone concentrates on the 2000 and 2004, but I think the first real mischievous hubris tampering test of stealing an election took place in the off-year election 2002.

One thing one should watch out for with the Bush Crime Family is that they purposely make things complicated and do things to set people off the scent of the trail. In part, I believe this is what Kerry was referring to in his remarks.

It does take time to develop the story behind the Bush Crime Family, but then this takes an audience patient enough to listen and curious enough to connect the dots. In a US-corporate-media news cycle filled with sound bites and headlines misrepresented or posted as being all there is to say on a news item, it becomes increasingly difficult to get at the underpinnings of what is really happening. If this election fraud does become an issue for the US-mainstream-mealy-mouthed media, it will be distorted beyond recognition by the power-that-be.

[democraticinsurgent]

40. One day when the dots are truly connected

the line will be drawn from the Nazis to the Bay of Pigs and JFK/RFK assassinations, Watergate-Deep Throat, Iran Contra, October Hostages Surprise, Reagan Assassination attempt, 9/11 and Election Fraud, and one name will be in common with it all: The Bush Crime Family.

Not that this is a huge surprise to anyone here, but if/when it would really get proven/accepted by the masses, it would be like flushing 50 years of bad karma.

The very best thing that could ever happen to us all.

I can't wait.

[nolabels]

41. One thing I do find strange though..........

Is all the paperwork to make it happen is sitting in the clutches of the government in archive, warehouses and offices just waiting to be unearthed. It will probably take some catastrophic event out of everybody's control to get it rolling, what part of things remain and survive, only our fate knows for sure

There was this thread by the same title also

Connect the Dots, America!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=133055

[FredStembottom]

49. Minnesota 2002. A landslide for poor Paul Wellstone's replacement

Walter Mondale was shaping up. It was clear that a huge sympathy vote was building to push the race even further ahead for Mondale. And sympathy votes can usually get the dead person's _dog_ elected if declared as the official replacement candidate!

It was exactly like 2004. Going to bed as exit polls showed Mondale on course only to wake up and find that Norm Coleman had gone ahead somehow in the wee hours. The MSM's official explanation, assembled after the election, for the "sudden and startling Rightward lurch of a classic Blue State" was mere speculation. That thousands and thousands of Red Staters must be moving in at an enormous (and previously undetected) rate. I accepted that even though I had not experienced any uptick in the number of recent Red State transplants in my day-to-day interactions(I am an air express courier and have dozens of interactions with new people every day). Many, many hundreds of new Hmong, Latino and Somali immigrants yes. But Red Staters? No.

But I accepted that theory....Until Nov. 3rd when I saw the same middle of the night reversal pattern in this election take place nationally. An election where, locally, we booted out 13 incumbent Repubs. from the statehouse AND carried Kerry/Edwards! In other words, we are right back to being the famously Democratic state we always have been.

Something came. Something moved in, altered that Senate race in 2002 and departed. And, for whatever reason, didn't come back this time.

Of course this is pure conjecture and I present it as that only. But a look into Minnesota voting records from 2002 might be very instructive.
:think:

[latteromden]

51. 2002 was...

weird. Very weird. I don't think there's any way that the troubles at the Wellstone event could have swung the election to Coleman. I'm doubtful that he could have won without the votes of Wellstone supporters - and WHO IN THE WORLD would support Wellstone and vote for Coleman? Nobody *I* know, and certainly no thinking person. x_x

Bush certainly had an interest in Coleman winning.

[FredStembottom]

53. It's just a feeling, I know , but one I still have 2 years later

The actual vote was, what?, just 2 weeks after Wellstone's death? Nothing suppresses a candidate's vote like having the opponent die tragically and unexpectedly just before the election.

Even with all the hay that Con-Talk Radio made of the Wellstone memorial I can't see a huge, new surge of previously unknown Republican voters take that moment to express their presence. To "rub it in" with a demonic vengeance when so many people died just 2 weeks previous. I just don't believe that. It would have made any merely human Republican a little sheepish about their vote. And sheepishness does not rally people or create historic departures from previous patterns.

Just feelings. Feelings that go against my 48 years of observing all types of Americans.

And to see that same late-night shift against the polls occur on a national level this year is just too much to take.

[seito]

37. A Democratic friend told me yesterday

If what you are saying is true (ie fraud) when the public finds out it will be very bad for the country.

My reply... not as bad as letting the fraud stand and keeping it secret. We are in for some tough times ahead, but our future depends upon us not relenting in this fight.

[merh]

38. When I worked in county government years ago, I had

one person question why I was always "stirring up the shit". I don't like elected officials that bend or break the rules or who don't follow the law and do their jobs, so I was always on someone's case, reminding them that we worked for the people, et cetera.

When the co-worker asked me why I was always "stirring up the shit", my response was "I would rather stir it up and hope it dissipates, than sit in it and reek."

I still feel that way, only the shit is much deeper and on a grander scale and I still hate sitting in it!

[nolabels]

39. That feeling when things seem so outlandish others cannot believe

These people refer to (a large majority) shut down and go on believing what ever lies they are told. It's because doing otherwise would be to painful for their brain and would shatter too many beliefs.

Mark Twain Quotes
Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't.
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/m/marktwain122865.html

Turn on the History channel. We didn't have to A Bomb Japan
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=337703

DU MKULTRA thread-let's talk about mind control, factually now
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1414094

Really for quite awhile I had a hard time understanding the why about a lot of things, but when the story came out about people being hardwired with with that belief gene trait it seems so much easier understanding some foolish behavior.

Eat, drink and be merry for only fate knows what tomorrow brings :-)

[progressivebydesign]

42. Please.. never forget! EVERY crime was once a conspiracy!!! n/t

[Razorback_Democrat]

45. And, Conspiracy to commit a crime IS A CRIME! n/t

[Shalom]

47. All Madsen Did Was Point Out the Obvious

Is it not obvious that this is not the first scam pulled off by the Bushitler dynasty, and that they would use some of the same actors they used in the past ?

Is is not obvious that election fraud requires funding, and that the Bushitler regime would use some of the dirty sources they used in the past ?

Is it not obvious that the election fraud in 2004 needed to be prototyped and tested on a smaller scale before it was rolled out ?

This scheme was not necessarily complicated: just massive. You take a simple, tested scam, and apply it to a few platforms.

BINGO!

[tandem5]

54. I think that's how these people hide in plain sight...

they do stuff that's just too crazy to believe.