How widespread do you believe fraud was in this election?

[jamboi]

I'm curious to know just where DU'ers are on the fraud question. How widespread do you think election fraud was in the 2004 election? Please keep kicking this today so we can get a decent sample of those frequenting this forum. Thanks!

[jamboi]

1. woa, y'all are scaring me! Bunch of Conspiracy theorists! ;-) n/t

[jamboi]

2. Dang! n/t

[rainbow4321]

72. Shrub's new Presidential seal 'splains it all....

[slackmaster]

3. Thanks for posting this poll, jamboi

Great topic, and allows expression of a wide range of opinions without threat of getting cluster-bombed for being "different".

:toast:

[jamboi]

5. Thanks, that is exactly what I was aiming for instead of confining people

to a false dichotomy. Cuz I actually want to find out where people are at.

[jamboi]

4. Novak: "More doom and gloom from the Democrats" You Dems you! n/t

[smartvoter]

6. This is interesting, I've been thinking about the "widespread" angle.

If you have problems in Ohio and Florida, it is a wide range of problems (geographically). But it doesn't mean every state between had them.

This is what I think is interesting to the "no national pattern" argument. If you tipped New York for Bush, it would be like denying you were in the cookie jar with crumbs on your sweater. But you could pad the vote in places like NY, Cal and red states for an overall margin, and tip it in swing states for the electoral college.

It wouldn't "look" like a national pattern. But it would tip the national election (and probably some locals).

[jamboi]

7. Yes, and the poll could be refined to take that into account. Good point.

[bunny planet]

22. They shaved votes like crazy for their 'mandate'.

I live in NJ and the Republicans were constantly trying to make it look like it was so close here, NJ is 'in play' is what I heard for weeks. Jersey is as blue as you can get outside of NYC, always has been. They put the rumor out there that states were razor close, so that it would be less suspicious when higher numbers came in for * even in states that eventually went blue for Kerry. They did this is Hawaii too, even sent Darth Cheney there at the last minute because it was 'in play'. They shaved in Republican states as well, because there were tons of R voters that were changing their votes in this election. The whole thing stinks, in my opinion, not just Ohio and Florida, although the shenanigi in those two states positively reek.

[bobbieinok]

70. suspect lots of padding in OK.....senate race is way weird...dem

leading strongly, but then Coburn 'won'

[jamboi]

8. Kick to top.

[sabra]

9. Good Poll!

Kick

[Stand and Fight]

10. Option 6

All the way. There is little doubt in my mind that this election was a shame through and through!

[jamboi]

13. Both a sham and a shame through and through. & appearently many others too

[smartvoter]

11. Kick.

[jamboi]

12. kick

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[SammyWinstonJack]

14. Massive fraud

Four years in the making.

[kk897]

15. Sorry to bother you with a PM again...

Hi Jamboi--I just couldn't figure out where the heck to post this, but I wanted to bring it someone's attention. Do you have any recommendations?

I was going through some old articles that I clipped from before the election and ran into a NYT article about the GOP crying about Dems intimidating *them*. Anyway, the last paragraph is:

"A group of 50 Republicans in the House led by Representative Tom Feeney of Florida sent a letter on Oct. 7 to Attorney General John Ashcroft suggesting the existence of "a plan to intimidate volunteers who were supporting their candidate" and requesting an investigation."

I found that really curious, anyway.

Thanks for everything, man,
kk897 (Kelly)

[kk897]

16. oops, meant for that to be a PM, but if anyone *else* has any thought on i

it, I'd be happy to hear them.

Sorry!
:silly:

[jamboi]

17. Hmmm... that is interesting too. The pot..kettle...black??? n/t

[Peace Patriot]

23. Sure sounds like a disinformation campaign...

of the pre-emptive strike variety. Karl Rove trainee.

[jamboi]

28. Feeney? He probably taught Rove. n/t

[Helga Scow Stern]

35. I have been looking at DoJ "monitoring" of election complaints....

do you have the link for that?

[IndyOp]

18. Nice to know that each DUer gets to vote once

...and only once. Yeah, I tried voting twice just to see what would happen.

:evilgrin:

[glugglug]

24. Does anyone actually believe NYC went less than 90% to Kerry?

I don't. Not for a minute. It's pretty damn hard to find a * voter here.

Should give an idea how much padding is going on in the obviously blue and red areas.

[corbett]

48. I Don't Doubt It. He Won Berkeley, CA By About The Same Margin

Voters in both of those cities have a genuine hatred for Dubya. Kerry's broad margin of victory in both those places was a combination of strong Democratic unity and the "Anybody But Bush" vote.

[Peace Patriot]

26. Yeah, there is another refinement

...you could do for Category #6: Catastrophic fraud, and that is, the election was a fraud going in. It was SET UP for fraud, quite deliberately. Or (and?), the election SYSTEM itself is fraudulent. What happened can't even be called an election.

There is solid, detailed evidence for this. Rightwing Republicans (Bush "Pioneers"!) owning the source code for the central vote tabulators as SECRET proprietary information. Bush "Pioneers" companies insisting no paper trail needed. Repug Congress PREVENTING a paper trail. Public having to fight for a paper trail (an auditable election) and only partially succeeding. Highly insecure code--using C++ and Windows. Cripes. Many whistleblowers pointing out high insecurity--companies resistant to security measures, secretive, defensive. Trust us.

This alone, the electronic aspect, is mind-boggling.

You might word Category (#7) this way: It's the end of American democracy. A completely illegitimate and unverifiable national election perpetrated by a fascist coup, to keep themselves in power, despite overwhelming prima facie evidence that the people in the country rejected their policies and their crimes, and voted to throw them out.

[jamboi]

27. Cool, thanks! You know I'm really floored that #3 is not the most popular.

Probably if we do this DU wide that would be.

[AmerDem]

30. I like that avatar

mind if I use it?

[jamboi]

33. Please do! It refers to the RedHandsMovement.com

http://www.redhandsmovement.com

[AmerDem]

42. Thanks for the link

looks like some others decided to use it as well.

[floridadem30]

31. kick

[jamboi]

34. .

[jamboi]

36. .

[merh]

40. Check out this story in LBN

Whatcha think?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1054558

[kedrys]

43. Considering I'll go to my grave swearing up and down that Texas was

actually in play, yeah, catastrophic approaches the magnitude of the cock-up.

[Pacifist Patriot]

59. No one will ever convince me that Florida went red.

[sportndandy]

45. Kick, but I think we know where DUers stand

And I think you are all a perceptive, intelligent and good-looking group!

[skids]

53. But not how many of them.

The poll still is a morale booster to watch that number go up.

[angrydemocrat]

54. kick

:kick:

[Tripmann]

57. Morning kick from europe.....

[dalloway]

58. kick n/t

[PATRICK]

60. Catastrophic but largely typical

The abundance of shenanigans revealed by the GOP in 2000 were potentially shattering. They just piled up without notice of the salient fact how prevalent various methods of tilting and rigging and favoritism and intimidation could be. The padding of the popular vote is still not uncovered properly but the little stuff for sure, especially as it goes on and on under the "smoother" meme.

Retrieving the vote and protecting the vote has just not been done. That was an initiation not a preparation. Who could be shocked now at anything the Democrats or the media fail to do?

[jamboi]

75. Starting to think the same. n/t

[jamboi]

76. That's a new thought for me. Monstrous! Unbelievable n/t

[wiggs]

64. #4 because we don't know how much there was. And that's the point. nt

[jamboi]

68. Kick

[jamboi]

69. .

[jamboi]

73. .

[intheflow]

71. I voted with the overwhelming majority.

Doubt of vote anywhere = doubt of fraud everywhere.

[jamboi]

74. Do you mean that you don't think there was widespread fraud or that you do

? Sorry I'm confused.