If only 3 percent of the ballots are hand counted and the rest are run....

[EMunster]

through a machine, won't we just get the same results?

[Junkdrawer]

1. Everything depends on how the "random precincts" are selected...

By Ohio law, each county election board has to select enough precincts so as to exceed 3% of that county's total vote.

Assume that some precincts were hacked, and some were not. If the board "randomly" selects the precincts that weren't hacked, then, yeah, the recount comes to nothing.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

2. Wait--isn't this to be a FULL recount? -nt

[Junkdrawer]

5. See post #4...They could have cheated and still evade detection.

:(

[righteous1]

3. I don't follow your logic

Each county would have a random 3% of ballots pulled. The odds would favor at least some of that 3% coming from "hacked" precincts

[Junkdrawer]

4. Nope.Enough WHOLE precincts are recounted so as to comprise...

3% of each county's total vote.


(5) The board must randomly select as many whole precincts as necessary
in order to equal at least 3% of the total vote cast for the office, question, or issue
being recounted. The board then must manually recount the ballots for the
selected precincts.



http://www.lsc.state.oh.us/analyses124/h0566-i.pdf

[eomer]

14. I believe you're right

but isn't there a high probability, even if they hand pick the precincts, that the machine count and the hand count for the 3% will differ by at least one vote? Don't they almost always disagree by at least one vote due to the rules on counting chads or the fact that chads fall off when they're handled?

[Junkdrawer]

24. Here's the rule from the same source...

(7) If the automatic tabulating equipment count of the ballots from the
randomly selected precincts does not match their manual count, a second manual
count of those ballots must be conducted. If the automatic tabulating equipment
count does not match the second manual count, all the ballots for the county must
be manually recounted. But, if, the automatic tabulating equipment count matches
the second manual count, the remainder of the ballots for the county must be
recounted and tallied using the automatic tabulating equipment.

Now, I wonder if they'll get a judge to help them define "match"?

[LiberalAndProud]

6. If the code is set to "self destruct" and is not reintroduced, maybe not.

The fact is, we must demand that the source code be scrutinized. If we can't get that, we have no way to verify that the machines were taught to count right.

We know that some machines count backwards. I almost hope that happens again during a machine recount. I don't care how many "blank votes" there are, there is no such thing as a negative vote.

[mdb]

7. Depends.

If the county level was altered you would get the same tally at the precinct levels. Its when you add up all precincts to see if this matches the county level.

You can still get hanging chads and all that were not counted at the precinct level.

On a mass scale I would think the change would take place at the county level in Gems or MS-Access.

[Boredtodeath]

9. OH isn't using GEMS

on a wide enough scale for your presumption to have any effect.

Only 4 OH counties even use electronic voting and I don't believe ANY of them use the Diebold machines.

You are mixing apples and oranges when you talk about punch cards + GEMS.

[mdb]

11. Excuse me?

From what I've read. More than 35 counties in Ohio alone used the Diebold machines on Tuesday.

Diebold Inc. voting machines, with no paper trail or provision for verification of accuracy, were used in Ohio.

[eomer]

13. Can't vouch for it...

but here's something that was posted in another thread that says just 7 were by e-voting with no paper trail:
http://verifiedvoting.org/verifier/map.php?&topic_string=5std&state=Ohio

[pointsoflight]

16. They still use computer-based vote tabulators. n/t

[Boredtodeath]

17. Sorry, not one Diebold county in Ohio

Not one. 4 are using ES&S, but not one Ohio county was Diebold. So no counties in OH were using GEMS. GEMS is patented by Diebold.

[mdb]

21. My point is at the county level the tally can be altered. n/t

[lizzieforkerry]

19. The no paper trail ones were only in 6 counties, though

Diebold may have other machines in use here, it is an Ohio comapny, but they only had peperless ones in 6 counties. (Soem people have posted four, I have seen posts and have read articles that say 6)

[roseBudd]

20. The key to fraud in OH is going to most likely be in the 41 counties that

used Triad Governmental Systems punch card tabulator software.

Those counties are:

Urban counties in Ohio with minority populations were for the most part not Triad tabulated punch card counties. Some of the urban couties are Cuyahoga, Montgomery, Franklin, Hamilton, and a couple more up near Cleveland. The counties that Toledo and Akron are in.

It would seem that Triad serves counties that are for the most part white and not urban.

Triad counties: The number next to the county name is population, so you can see these are not urban counties.

1, oh,"ashtabula",103120,"Triad Governmental Systems, Inc.","Punch Card"

1, oh,"brown",43807,"Triad Governmental Systems, Inc.","Punch Card"

1, oh,"carroll",29599,"Triad Governmental Systems, Inc.","Punch Card"

1, oh,"clark",143351,"Triad Governmental Systems, Inc.","Punch Card"

1, oh,"clinton",41756,"Triad Governmental Systems, Inc.","Punch Card"

1, oh,"columbiana",111523,"Triad Governmental Systems, Inc.","Punch Card"

1, oh,"darke",52960,"Triad Governmental Systems, Inc.","Punch Card"

1, oh,"defiance",39054,"Triad Governmental Systems, Inc.","Punch Card"

1, oh,"fulton",42446,"Triad Governmental Systems, Inc.","Punch Card"

1, oh,"gallia",31398,"Triad Governmental Systems, Inc.","Punch Card"

1, oh,"greene",151257,"Triad Governmental Systems, Inc.","Punch Card"

1, oh,"guernsey",41362,"Triad Governmental Systems, Inc.","Punch Card"

1, oh,"harrison",15967,"Triad Governmental Systems, Inc.","Punch Card"

1, oh,"henry",29318,"Triad Governmental Systems, Inc.","Punch Card"

1, oh,"highland",41963,"Triad Governmental Systems, Inc.","Punch Card"

1, oh,"hocking",28644,"Triad Governmental Systems, Inc.","Punch Card"

1, oh,"holmes",40681,"Triad Governmental Systems, Inc.","Punch Card"

1, oh,"jackson",33074,"Triad Governmental Systems, Inc.","Punch Card"

1, oh,"logan",46411,"Triad Governmental Systems, Inc.","Punch Card"

1, oh,"lorain",291164,"Triad Governmental Systems, Inc.","Punch Card"

1, oh,"madison",40624,"Triad Governmental Systems, Inc.","Punch Card"

1, oh,"marion",66396,"Triad Governmental Systems, Inc.","Punch Card"

1, oh,"meigs",23242,"Triad Governmental Systems, Inc.","Punch Card"

1, oh,"mercer",40933,"Triad Governmental Systems, Inc.","Punch Card"

1, oh,"monroe",14927,"Triad Governmental Systems, Inc.","Punch Card"

1, oh,"montgomery",552187,"Triad Governmental Systems, Inc.","Punch Card"

1, oh,"morgan",14843,"Triad Governmental Systems, Inc.","Punch Card"

1, oh,"muskingum",85423,"Triad Governmental Systems, Inc.","Punch Card"

1, oh,"noble",14054,"Triad Governmental Systems, Inc.","Punch Card"

1, oh,"paulding",19665,"Triad Governmental Systems, Inc.","Punch Card"

1, oh,"perry",35074,"Triad Governmental Systems, Inc.","Punch Card"

1, oh,"pike",28194,"Triad Governmental Systems, Inc.","Punch Card"

1, oh,"portage",154870,"Triad Governmental Systems, Inc.","Punch Card"

1, oh,"preble",42417,"Triad Governmental Systems, Inc.","Punch Card"

1, oh,"putnam",34754,"Triad Governmental Systems, Inc.","Punch Card"

1, oh,"seneca",57734,"Triad Governmental Systems, Inc.","Punch Card"

1, oh,"union",43750,"Triad Governmental Systems, Inc.","Punch Card"

1, oh,"van wert",29277,"Triad Governmental Systems, Inc.","Punch Card"

1, oh,"warren",181743,"Triad Governmental Systems, Inc.","Punch Card"


1, oh,"wood",123020,"Triad Governmental Systems, Inc.","Punch Card"

[dewaldd]

8. Rally to demand full recounts, anyone?

Who the hell do our government bureaucrats think they are, anyway?

[cguttman]

25. Urgent: Tell Democrats to insist on full recount, like Greens!

The Green party is demanding a FULL recount and the Democrats are not sure if they will make that request yet. They might be satisfied with a 3% hand count and let the rest run through the same faulty machines! The local Ohio Boards of Elections in different counties which makes the final decisions will get "cover" if the Democrats are satisfied with 3%. Tell the Dems what you think!
For more info:
http://www.ohiodems.org/index.php?display=ReleaseDetails&id=202768&PHPSESSID=2da83452eb3182c2a7d29e6b01cba656

Ohio Democrats 614-221-6563 (voice) 614-221-0721 (fax) email [e-mail];
The DNC Phone [phone] and http://www.democrats.org/contact
and Kerry Campaign (phone) 202-712-3000, try ext.5377; Kerry's Senate fax [phone] and Email http://kerry.senate.gov/bandwidth/contact/email.html Note: When People have called Kerry's office they are told that Kerry cannot conduct election business from his Senate office and they are referred to the DNC, so any messages sent to his Senate office may be forward to the DNC

[Boredtodeath]

10. If there is ONE vote difference, hand recount immediate

3% are hand counted.

If there is even a 1 vote difference, the entire county has to be hand counted.

[eomer]

12. And that's at the county level, right?

Chances have got to be very high that there will be at least a one vote difference in each county after the 3% count. That should be the case even if everything was on the up and up because you'll have some chads that fell out since the original count.

[Boredtodeath]

18. Precinct, actually

So, yes, the odds are excellent that a statewide recount will happen.

[bemis12]

27. That's a one vote difference from the manual recount

not from the original results. The ONLY way the full manual recount is happening is if the machines cannot properly count those manually counted.

It's NOT a one vote difference from the original results. Just wanted to make sure people weren't thinking that was the case.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[KeireG]

22. Why triad?

That's a development I missed. Could someone explain the Triad situation?

[Mastiff]

23. I read today that absentee ballots had more votes than voters.

The report said that 1 Ohio county (the first one checked) was averaging about 5 more absentee votes recorded than voters who showed up in the poll books. They said if done state-wide there would be approximately 66,000 extra votes. Would this discrepancy cause a full hand recount?

[Amaryllis]

26. Yes, this is a problem; Greens are calling for action.

http://www.stolenelection2004.com/alerts.html



The Green party is demanding a FULL recount and the Democrats are not sure if they will make that request yet. They might be satisfied with a 3% hand count and let the rest run through the same faulty machines! The local Ohio Boards of Elections different counties which makes the final decision will get "cover" if the Democrats are satisfied with 3%. For more info click here.

Tell the Dems that a full manual recount--and a full investigation of the voting machines-- is the only way to make sure every vote will count!

Contact: Contact the Ohio Dems 614-221-6563 (voice) 614-221-0721 (fax) email [e-mail];
The DNC: Phone [phone] and http://www.democrats.org/contact