What does Kerry's Lawyer mean by this statement? It's confusing....

[KoKo]

In his lawyer's press release this statement:


"We're trying to increase the transparency of the election process," said Donald McTigue, the lawyer handling the recount for the Kerry campaign. But he added that several requests - such as using independent experts to check election equipment, "are trying to push the edge of envelope."

Does this mean that they don't want to examine the election equipment?

Does anyone have the "full text" of the letter...MSM has cut the letter into just sound bites...yet the statement above seems to "float" without reference. :shrug;

[KaliTracy]

1. no one's ever asked to investigate the machines before

it's always been on the ballot -- not the apparatus. that's why it's pushing the edge... or at least, that's my interpretation of that statement

[Chimpanzee]

3. Great minds think alike!

[Higans]

33. Kick this

they will never get an accurate count with out auditing, and transparent elections. something that I am beginning to think can't be done in the current state that the machines are in.

How about count Ohio. How bout count every one. leave the stupid farce behind you.

[Chimpanzee]

2. I think he means

that some of the 'requests' may not have a good legal basis for enforcement. No laws related to inspection of voting machines and software, possibly. That's my guess.

[pbartch]

32. THE WHOLE STORY ON YAHOO IS PRETTY SHORT

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=536&e=2&u=/ap/20041213/ap_on_el_pr/kerry_recount

Kerry Lawyer Seeks Ohio Ballot Inspection
Sun Dec 12,10:20 PM ET Politics - AP
By MARK WILLIAMS, Associated Press Writer

COLUMBUS, Ohio - Democrat John Kerry is asking county elections officials to allow his witnesses to inspect the 92,000 ballots cast in Ohio in which no vote for president was recorded, a Kerry lawyer said Sunday night.

The request is one of 11 the Kerry campaign made in a letter sent over the weekend to Ohio's 88 county boards of election, which will begin recounting presidential ballots this week.

"We're trying to increase the transparency of the election process," said Donald McTigue, the lawyer handling the recount for the Kerry campaign. But he added that several requests — such as using independent experts to check election equipment, "are trying to push the edge of envelope."

Two minor presidential candidates who received 0.30 percent of the votes in last month's election requested and paid for the recount, claiming that the election was full of irregularities that need to be addressed.

President Bush, a Republican, beat the Massachusetts senator by about 119,000 votes in Ohio on Election Day. Ohio's 20 electoral votes, which will be cast on Monday, put Bush over the top in the race.

Kerry's campaign supports the recount, while Bush's campaign has criticized it, but both sides agree it won't change the outcome of the election.

McTigue said the visual inspection is allowed under state law. The goal is to look for potential votes that were not registered by the tabulating equipment.

McTigue also asked that counties accept the help of a group called Votewatch to determine which precincts will be chosen for the part of the recount that will be conducted by hand. McTigue said using the group will ensure that the ballots are selected using a valid random sampling method.

The procedures require 3 percent of ballots to be counted by hand in each county. All the county's ballots would be counted by hand if the initial check turns up problems.

Carlo LoParo, spokesman for Secretary of State Kenneth Blackwell, said state law will guide counties on how to conduct the recount.

"I don't know if Mr. McTigue is in a position to dictate the terms of a recount," he said.

[Higans]

34. Check this.

McTigue said the visual inspection is allowed under state law. The goal is to look for potential votes that were not registered by the tabulating equipment.

How do you visually inspect a vapor vote????

[Up2Late]

36. Ohio is not that bad

Most of Ohio DID have a Paper trail. Most of OHIO used, our favorite, PUNCH CARDS. :beer:

Not ideal, but not as tragic as here in Georgia (all paperless DIEbold Touch screens):silly:

[Straight Shooter]

4. I think he means that they're going beyond what's been tried before

IOW, no one has ever done this before, and so they're pushing the limits of precedent.

Doesn't mean it can't be done, though ;)

[vpigrad]

5. It means...

we're giving-up.

What have those guys done yet? Nothing.

[shraby]

6. I take it that they

are going to have the machines inspected and expect to set a precedent for it. Most of them haven't been inspected even before the election. Now is a good time to start.

[troubleinwinter]

10. Why bother with this crap? NO we are NOT giving up, that's the point

[vpigrad]

16. You say we're not giving up...

I agree with that. It's just that the party leadership seems to have given-up. That's what I was talking about.

[ClassWarrior]

18. If you don't have any faith in our party, what are you doing here?

Just curious.

NGU.

[vpigrad]

25. I said we haven't given-up

The party has. As a general rule, the people here seem like much better people than the ones that run our party. That's what I'm talking about.

[ClassWarrior]

26. But WE'RE the party.

If you want to change the party, run for office. Dog catcher, if that's what works. Whatever. Get involved. Do you know when your county party meets? Where? Have you been to a meeting? Dreadfully boring. But is saving the dang country worth a dreadfully boring meeting once a month? (And hey, I figure once we take over, we can work on making the meetings more exciting...)

NGU.

[napi21]

7. I think it's opening the demand for release of proprietary code.

That's the one thing that has been kept hidden and the voting machine mfg's won't release. It's also the one way EXPERTS can find out if the code is or can easily be compromised.

[KoKo]

8. WOW! Look at the Lies of the MSM! Got the text from Ohio/Buzzflash and

it's different from AP and GOOGLE and what's up on Yahoo right now.

Look at how they distorted what Kerry's lawyer requested...No wonder I was confused...check out the difference in the two reports:

---------------------------------------------------------------Kerry Lawyer Seeks Ohio Ballot Inspection

1 hour, 38 minutes ago

By MARK WILLIAMS, Associated Press Writer

COLUMBUS, Ohio - Democrat John Kerry (news - web sites) is asking county elections officials to allow his witnesses to inspect the 92,000 ballots cast in Ohio in which no vote for president was recorded, a Kerry lawyer said Sunday night.

The request is one of 11 the Kerry campaign made in a letter sent over the weekend to Ohio's 88 county boards of election, which will begin recounting presidential ballots this week.

"We're trying to increase the transparency of the election process," said Donald McTigue, the lawyer handling the recount for the Kerry campaign. But he added that several requests — such as using independent experts to check election equipment, "are trying to push the edge of envelope."

More..........
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&e=5&u=/ap/20041213/ap_on_el_pr/kerry_recount
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Compared to This from
"OHIO News NOW"...
McTigue said the visual inspection is allowed under state law. The goal is to look for potential votes that were not registered by the tabulating equipment.Other requests include the use of independent experts to check the programming and calibration of the election equipment, something McTigue said has never been allowed.McTigue also asked that counties accept the help of a group called Votewatch to determine which precincts will be chosen for that part of the vote that will be counted by hand. McTigue said using the group will ensure that the ballots are selected using a valid random sampling method.The procedures require 3 percent of ballots to be counted by hand in each county, and then all ballots to be counted if the initial check turns up problems.McTigue would not speculate how many of the items the counties will honor."Several requests are trying to push the edge of envelope," he said.Carlo LoParo, spokesman for Secretary of State Kenneth Blackwell, said state law will guide counties on how to do the recount."I don't know if Mr. McTigue is in a position to dictate the terms of a recount," he said.

http://www.onnnews.com/Global/story.asp?S=2682767

[TaleWgnDg]

17. Well. You found something out. That AP sucks at reporting,

particularly if the reporting is about legal matters. Reuters isn't too far ahead of AP . . . legal stuff, overall, is not reported well in America to the general public.



edited to add: I made earlier comment on this issue at post #13.




.

[fearnobush]

22. Yes ture, AP fucks up a story and every one else bleeds with it.

Oh did I say bleed, I meant lead.

[KoKo]

37. Kick.....

[bleever]

9. It means that now the conversation is now about "transparency".

And if you're "pushing the envelope", that's usually a reference to cutting edge progress into the future, and the hurdle between us and this future is "transparency". Those who oppose transparency, and stand between us and our future, well shoot, what do they have to say for themselves?

We'll find out. I'm looking forward to it.


:evilgrin:

[Straight Shooter]

11. I don't know why Blackwell would oppose transparency

We can already see right through him.

[bleever]

14. I think his position is that we should not see London; we should

not see France; we should not, in fact, see his underpants.

And I hope he gets a chance to make his case on TV with Keef.

:7

[ClassWarrior]

21. Ewwwwwww...

Katherine Blackwell's underpants!!! Now I have to go wash out my mind's eye with bleach...

NGU.

[Up2Late]

38. Quick Poll: Does Black well have "Skid Marks?"

I say Yes! :evilgrin:

[texpatriot2004]

23. Well, I see London and I even see France and I really don't

want to see that much of Katherine Blackwell. Although I can see right through him, as many of us can. It seems he keeps digging a deeper hole for himself, doesn't it? It seems he is AGAINST transparency. Hmm. How can that be? What kind of person would be AGAINST transparency? What kind of AMERICAN would be against a transparent election? Who on earth wants to be seen as being AGAINST transparent elections here in the good ole USA? I wonder? I like how this is unfolding.

[angrydemocrat]

35. SHEEEEEEEWW

That would be a horrible sight! What you already see is nasty! LOL

[RevCheesehead]

28. Boxers, Briefs, or Thong?

[RevCheesehead]

20. Those who oppose transparency are with the Dark Side. n/t

[texpatriot2004]

24. "And by their fruits ye shall know them" eh Rev ? n/t

[RevCheesehead]

27. Gospel of Luke (Lucas), Episode V

"Join me in the Dark Side - together, we will rule the Empire." - Darth Cheney Vader.

[ClassWarrior]

29. Wow, now I really have to catch one of your sermons, Rev!

LOL

NNNGU.

[RevCheesehead]

31. Today I was quoting Monty Python's "Life of BrIan"

You just never know where my crazy mind will go!

[Up2Late]

39. How 'bout this re: Blackwell

B-)The unwise man, lacking understanding,
Behaves as if he were his own worst enemy,
Committing evil deeds
That produce bitter fruit. -- The Buddha - The Dhammapada 5: 7

[dmac]

30. I always thought pushing the envelope

means asking for more than you are likely to get - i.e., you agree easily your teenager can come in at midnight - so he begins vying for 1 or 2 . . .

"You are pushing the envelope son."

Or your boss has just given you a raise and Wednesdays off - so you ask, can you also leave at 4 instead of 4:30? Again, pushing the envelope.

So I see this as it relates to the recount that they have asked for everything they want - not expecting to get it all but definitely putting it on the table.

Cutting edge progress I see more as moving ahead through technical means, which I guess could have had something to do with it since the request was for them to examine the computer software.

I guess time will tell. The comment was rather vague I thought.

[Eye_on_prize]

12. I think that's only the *one* of eleven points in Kerry's letter that ...

was cited specifically in the article. think i saw on another thread a summary that included e-voting but can't swear to it. i'll look around and repost anything i turn up.

[Eye_on_prize]

15. oopsie. should have read prev. posts more carefully. seems this has

been covered. cool.

[TaleWgnDg]

13. Apparently, Attorney McTigue is saying that his written

requests (in his recount request) are in grey areas of law when he states that he is "trying to push the edge of the envelope." Meaning that it's never before contested issues that he is requesting and he is hoping that those requests will be allowed.

See: http://www.onnnews.com/Global/story.asp?S=2682767

I'd appreciate reading McTigue's request as its filed . . . meaning a copy of the actual document.

[idealista]

19. precincts should NOT be selected "at random"

And certainly not selected by the local officials, who can easily find the 3% of their county which they may know have not been tampered with.

Since ALL precincts supposedly were correctly counted to begin with, why would there be any reason not to allow the Greens, or Dems, to select which of these supposedly pristine precincts should be hand-counted? Precisely the precincts they suspect of being wrongly counted. What do local officials have to hide?

Pisses me off. Just another way for Blackwell to screw us.