Since Bev and her gang have deleted their sin

[Kelvin Mace]

here is a copy so the folks can read it tomorrow.

http://www.thoughtcrimes.org/blame_andy.htm

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kelvin Mace]

3. Why is posting Bev's own words and deeds

a "distraction"?

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Must_B_Free]

32. your bitterness is showing

maybe you are entitled to it, but right now it looks like you are trying to perpetuate something that you feel will hurt Bev. Is that what you want to do?

[T Town Jake]

51. BEV HARRIS IS A COMPLETE AND UTTER FRAUD.

...and, to the extent you support and flak for her, so are you.

[IAMREALITY]

73. Bev Deserves EVERY DAMN BIT OF IT.

I HATE FRAUDS!

[Higans]

36. I looked through those logs she is talking about.

http://www.blackboxvoting.org/dcforum/DCForumID4408/34.html

To me, an intelegent human, it looks like there not even counting any votes.

Ballots in ballots out. over stacked, run it again. I have this night mare that the people in charge are barly qualifyed to run a copy machine.

[americanstranger]

6. In the interest of clarity,

what is your relationship to Blackboxvoting.org?

Just so we know who is calling whom a distractor.

-as

[GregD]

10. David was Bev's publisher

He has worked hard on the BBV issue, and has earned respect from many.

There is also a great deal of unfortunate history between Bev and David that has been well-chronicled here in DU. In the end, that is "their history", and up to them to sort out some day - or not.

But regardless, you should consider David one of the good guys.

[americanstranger]

12. Oh, I absolutely do consider him a good guy.

I was replying to what is now 'deleted post' - in which David was being called a disruptor.

To tell you the truth, I'm curious as to all of the Bev supporters and their connections to bbv.org, if any. Knowing that might better sort out the validity (and honesty) of their arguments, IMO.

-as

[GregD]

25. cool, thanks for clarifying

[Old Mouse]

82. good idea

lots to sort out here

[BrotherBuzz]

13. No, I think americanstranger was asking about....

the urinating poster that's been stalking and been pissing on all of David's posts tonight.

[henslee]

75. IMO, David - decent, thoughtful guy.

[catcatcat]

14. well, as a fairly new person here, i'd like to thank everyone...

...who has shared their personal experiences and objective evidence (e.g, archive links to Ms. Harris' own words) regarding Ms. Harris' character. those who have spoken up have likely saved thousands of naive souls (including myself) the pain of first discovery. the debate came none to soon. present the evidence, and let each individual decide.

[Kelvin Mace]

17. I'm glad you took the time

to read the posts. Some folks can't be bothered to read something that long around here.

*sheesh*

<g>

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[catcatcat]

28. i am glad i did, too...

...and i'm glad others (and you, i remember especially, among them (and, thanks!)) took the time to educate. so much of the conclusion to this story seems self-evident, even if only read partially through -- but, then, i guess it's just a truth that not everyone will ever read things quite the same (if at all)...still, i'd like to think that most of them would.

<edited for connotation>

[arcos]

2. well, to be fair, the message says...

"After tomorrow afternoon, this message will be moved to the discussion forums."


However, I do think that what they did is despicable.

[Kelvin Mace]

4. It was posted

about an hour ago. Is it tomorrow afternoon already?

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[arcos]

5. oops, you are right...

I saw the computer's date and it said 15, but I didn't notice it was past midnight... and saw it was posted the 14, so I assumed it was a day ago.

Sorry. :P

[whirlygigspin]

7. psy-ops must love this

[MichaelHarris]

8. sheesh

the layers of the onion peeled off her "team" the more messed up it gets. I hope the day comes when she has to refund all the donations.

That's just my 2 cents, no need to flame someone for just an opinion.

[foo_bar]

9. no relation, I assume

[MichaelHarris]

19. not a chance

in hell. I take someone's money, promise them a tape I show it to the world. I don't wait for book and movie deals.

[ParanoidPat]

48. When did Bev or anyone at BBV.org promise anyone a tape?

Do you have a link to that? :shrug:

I thought not! :evilgrin:

WTF Book and Movie deals are you talking about? Care to come up with any real evidence of that being the case?

[T Town Jake]

53. YOUR HERO BEV HARRIS IS A COMPLETE & UTTER FRAUD...

...Pat. Haven't you figured that out yet? Or are you too stupid to think?

[sepia_steel]

11. I'm disgusted by the whole thing.

Too bad she couldn't show some class.

[In Truth We Trust]

15. David how did the meeting go in Raleighwood Monday?

I couldn't get away from a work commitment to be there. when is the next meeting?
pm me if you would prefer to comment that way

[Kelvin Mace]

16. It went pretty well

I was sitting beside Gary Bartlett and he is pretty much resigned to a paper ballot after the Carteret fiasco.

I will be posting a synopsis as soon as I can get some time.

Next meeting is the 20th.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[joevoter]

20. sorry... posted to wrong thread - delete this

[In Truth We Trust]

21. Thanks for the response. Great news re: Bartlett conceding the need for

paper ballots. Now if we could just recycle all the existing equipment and use paper from here on out that would be great. I will try to be there on the 20th. I appreciate your efforts. Did you happen to read the Arnebeck filing? It referenced Chuck Herrins website in regards to GEMS hacking. I thought that was pretty cool.

[Kelvin Mace]

22. Not yet,

but I am trying to catch up. Chuck is supposed to testify before us on Monday,

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[In Truth We Trust]

29. He will testify well. I hope the N&O and Charlotte Bserver cover it. I can

get an email out to them requesting coverage. I have been extremely disappointed in the n&o coverage or lack thereof. Their pice on Sunday was written by none other than Jack Rosen (a Fox smuck) and it was very deceptive to the average person who only relies on the so called traditional media.

It is great to have voices such as yours and Chucks articulating the need for paper ballots. The both of you speak from impressive tech resume's and. I particularly like the probable cause analogy you use so well.

It's late and I've gotta crash. Let me know if there is anything I can do to help the cause.
John

[Pachamama]

18. Has anyone ever heard of an employer posting someones termination?

Okay, I will be the first DUer to go on the record and say it:

The woman is certifiably unstable! Friend of mine who lurks on DU and is a psychiatrist says she is narcisstic and has Borderline Personality Disorder...

Anyone not familiar with those diagnoses in psychiatic terms, look them up...and there you have Bev...

And to anyone on DU who wants to form your own opinion - listen to the interview of Bev today w/ Randi Rhodes...in particular when Randi asked her about Andy Stephenson.....

I mean, if this wasn't so pathetic, it would be laughable...

This woman can't even find the time to properly coordinate things, return calls (build a decent website) or attend the Conyers hearings, yet between her "call-in" to Randi today and now, she managed to get a 6 member board meeting together and hold a vote to "fire" Andy?

Seriously, this woman is out of control...it has to be obvious to any sane person...the faster we get away from this woman the better...

As I said in an earlier post....keep our eye on the real story...election fraud not "Bev the Story"...


Sheesh...she's becoming the Scott Petersen of BBV.... :eyes:

[pauldp]

23. Seems like a mood disorder. We need compassion...

but I agree we should keep our distance.

A talented woman with a serious problem. IMHO

[NewYorkerfromMass]

99. "Temper tantrums and hanging up on members of the organization"

Yes. It is pretty weird and unprofessional for Bev to be posting these things publically, even if they may be true. And that's the best thing I could say about it.
Poor Bev. I wish her well.

[Tsiyu]

128. This is all news to me, but I do hate

immediately classifying a female as "crazy." Too Victorian for my Year 2004 taste.

I'm unclear on just what has transpired as this is the first post I've read concerning substantial problems with Ms. Harris. Is it the firing of Andy? I do agree her announcing it on a website- along with TOO much detail is unprofessional. But crazy?

I do agree that helping Repukes is not comforting, but perhaps they will take more notice if their own ballots are questionable. Maybe a method to this madness?

I don't get AAR unfortunately, or Randi and my dialup makes it tough to hear these folks speak, but I would hesitate before diagnosing another human being's mental status unless you're prepared to have your own posts here qualify as evidence for a diagnosis of YOUR mental state.

The woman would obviously be under tremendous stress. What other crimes and instability can you offer as evidence?

NOT QUESTIONING ANYONE'S CREDIBILITY! I LIKE THE TRUTH!

[joevoter]

24. She still has it posted in the forums

at the bottom in tiny print.

I have removed all links to BBV on my website. I drove allot of traffic to her site and regardless of what disputes exist the fact that she posted this is reason enough for me to break off all support for BBV.

[Old Mouse]

26. Please focus on the prize

It is fascinating to watch the disintegrating personal relationships of others, but that's what that was: personal. It is not our business.

I donated money to BBV. I donated more than a buck, as Randi had asked, and it gave me no power as a shareholder. Once you donate, not invest, how that money is spent is out of your hands. You have no right to demand an audit. And when I read about her fighting over trash bags full of poll tapes, I know my money is being how I hoped it would.

She has a caustic, controlling personality? She's not a nice person? I couldn't care less. In fact, every company I have ever been involved with that was run by a nice guy has gone out of business. Only an incredibly self-centered, dominating maniac would have started an organization designed to take on a criminal group trying to control the entire federal government in this way.

Black Box Voting's personnel problems are none of DU's business.

Bev Harris' personality clashes with other activists are not the business of anyone not directly involved.

Bev Harris' clashes with the press are of minor concern, and damage control should be done.

All I care about is keeping Bush from taking control of the government, and she is getting results. She could be Charles Manson right now for all I care, she got the goddamn IP address!

Psyops are now operating on DU. Any talk of "refunds" or "investigations" of BBV are people taking the bait.

[Kelvin Mace]

27. I love this kind of post

Easy for you to say, you don't have to pay my lawyer to defend against Bev's vicious attacks.

Psyops? Puh-leaze. Bev brought this on herself.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Old Mouse]

35. That's between you and her

Keep it out of the public forum. If you had a good lawyer you would know this.

I don't care about her apparent personality problems, or your hurt feelings. I only care about stopping Bush, and your public airing of what should be private disagreement is not constructive.

It's not our business, and I don't care.

Love this post: Psyops are beginning and you are too involved to see.

[Pepper32]

42. Sigh, Blind Loyalty is truly scary! n/t

[Old Mouse]

44. nice to meet you, too. n/t

[Pepper32]

47. Well isn't that special ...

:eyes:

[greatauntoftriplets]

67. I care about her libeling a friend of mine.

Andy Stephenson, that is. How would you like to have your reputation publicly defamed?

[Kelvin Mace]

69. It is this kind of

paranoid drivel which is destroying the credibilty of this issue.

I am quite sure that if Bev were making your life a living hell with her lies, you would sing a different tune.

Let me clue you in on somthing, "the end justify the means" is NOT a liberal philosphy.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[robbedvoter]

80. Dear old - it is also between thousands of DU-ers and her

You know, that fake named people posting whatever they want who sent your idol money...I guess they may be entitled to some accountability, non?

[Old Mouse]

83. as a matter of fact, non

If it was an investment they are entitled to accountability. If it was a donation, a gift, they are not.

[demobabe]

89. actually... you're incorrect

these are donations to a non-profit organization. it is an investment - an investment in a cause. if BBV is using the donations for something other than their stated purpose, then it is possible they could be opening themselves up for legal problems from their donors.

[Old Mouse]

91. no I am correct

They are not an investment, they are a gift

[Maddy McCall]

105. Bullshit! Tell that to the feds!

The tap has run dry, though, hasn't it? Investigation into Bev's spending habits will soon begin.

Do a little googling on non-profit directors who refuse to be accountable to donors. Many of them end up in jail. What they are hiding usually isn't pretty.

[Old Mouse]

106. money money money

bev grumble grumble money money money

Not accountable to donors. Just accountable. Donors don't have any say, its a gift, not an investment. You own no part of the entity and have no say over its actions.

"money money money grumble grumble bev"
learn it, use it, love it. Post fast, and post often!

[Maddy McCall]

108. Answer this. Does ANYONE own any part of the entity?

Since it's a 501c3, who exactly "owns" it?

[Old Mouse]

109. the board

[Maddy McCall]

110. bzzzzzt. Wrong. Care to try again?

[Old Mouse]

111. if you want to be persnickety with the buzzah

This type of non-profit has no per say owner, and cannot be bought or sold. But is under the complete financial control of its board of directors.
It is not able to take INVESTMENT but is eligible to take DONATIONS

Or as the IRS is fond of calling them: GIFTS

money money money

[Maddy McCall]

115. Ahhh...now you're on the right track.

And, all your talk about money. Notice my message? Not a word about seeking out donations here. Bev, on the other hand, is the dunning queen. Can't open her mouth without begging.

Every crisis that emerges--"we need more resources."

You're just pissed because your "leader" has been exposed. Must be tough for you to come to the realization that you've been had.

:D

[Old Mouse]

120. no, you just keep saying

that you are somehow owed an accounting, and you are not. Don't like her organization, don't give. Very simple. But no one here deserves any sort of accounting for money donated, as some here would like to make people believe.


money money money bev money mubmmlr monnnney

[Lerkfish]

134. well, then, when she wins her settlement, will she divide the spoils?

I mean the people who donated to her cause, when she gets her millions for that lawsuit against Diebold (qui tam or whatever it is, I'm not a lawyer), does she intend to keep all that money for her personal gain, reinvest it in an effort to improve voting, divide it among those who gave her a "gift", or what?

what is her intentions with that award?

[Maddy McCall]

102. 501C3s are every bit as accountable as any corporation to their...

investors. Even worse for non-profits who defraud contributors, though, because fraudulent ones profit under the guise of doing not-for-profit work. That is truly despicable.

[Old Mouse]

112. no such thing

as investors for a non-profit

[Maddy McCall]

116. Are you eight years old with a reading comprehension deficit?

If you will reread my message, I said that 501c3s are to be every bit as responsive as corporations are to their investors.

See...that's where Bev stinks.

Can't wait to see her 990 in April, under the FOIA. Going to be funny when the law she has touted is turned about and smites her in the face.

You are aware that ANYONE who requests financial information from BBV is supposed to receive it, according to the law? If I mail a SASE to BBV, Bev has to respond with an accounting for the money she has received and how she has spent it.

That's federal law, m'dear. No getting around it. None of Bev's usual diversionary tactics can change that law.

:D

[Kelvin Mace]

118. I think there is some reading comprehension problem

He asked me to explain a sentence to him in an earlier post.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Old Mouse]

121. I'm afraid you are again, wrong

A non-profit cannot accept investment, only donations. Donations are gifts, and grant no ownership, and therefore no transparency into the company.

Donations give no rights.

But you sure want to connect Bev with the idea of embezzlement.

Next: deny deny deny
pound pound pound
money money money

[Eloriel]

127. There most certainly IS a requirement for transparency

but that doesn't come as a result of either gifts, donations or investments. It comes because she's a 501(c)(3) organization. And for a lot of people, possibly the law included, that means that the contributions/donations/gifts/whatever you insist on calling them are all the MORE accountable.

And you may want to believe that "donations give no rights," but not all that many people who DO the donating see them as completely and totally free of any and all restrictions or strings. Not very many of us would be happy, for example, to learn that our donations/gifts/whatever you insist on calling them were wasted on frivolities -- and the potential for any 501(c)(3) organization to do that is there, no matter what you want to believe. In fact, the United Way experienced a considerable crisis over just such a thing as inappropriate use of donations/gifts/whatever you insist on calling them a few years ago.

It's perfectly fine for you to want to defend Bev -- but it's not so fine for you to try to do so by insisting that there's no accountability needed or required and therefore that these donations/gifts/whatever you insist on calling them are just, bascially, money down the drain, a gamble, a crapshoot. Really, that's how you're characterizing them. If they're not suppopsed to be used for SOMEthing relevent to the mission of the organization, then they mean nothing more than a turn of the roullette wheel or a whirl at the slots to the giver. I don't think that's what you mean to imply.

No one would make donations/gifts/whatever you insist on calling them to ANY 501(c)(3) EVER if that were the case.

[Maddy McCall]

100. I think bev is trying to blunt the impending tidal wave of people asking

for their money back.

Desperation?

[Old Mouse]

101. ahhhh... the money

must be about the money

[Maddy McCall]

103. No, it's about the F word

FRAUD = BEV. Everyone is aware of this now.

:evilgrin:

[Pachamama]

30. LETS FOCUS ON WHAT REALLY MATTERS-Check this out NOW!

Far more important than Bev Harris...If you want to donate some money, give some to Will Pitt...or the Green Party....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=160619&mesg_id=160619

[Boredtodeath]

31. It's BEV who takes this garbage public

After 2 years around here, it's never the wronged activist who goes public with the internal workings of BBV.org.

Always Bev Harris.

Always an unwarranted personal attack on supporters and volunteers.

Always by Bev Harris in public.

It wasn't David Allen of Plan9 who took their dispute public, it was Bev Harris.

It wasn't Eloriel or Roxanne who took their dispute public, it was Bev Harris.

It wasn't Alastair who took their dispute public, it was Bev Harris.

It's wasn't DU Admins who took their dispute public, it was Bev Harris.

It wasn't Andy who took their dispute public, it was Bev Harris.

Look, you want to look to someone for this behavior, you need to look at Bev Harris.

All these other people have taken incredible abuse at the hands of Bev Harris and kept their mouths shut for the "good of the cause." But Bev Harris couldn't let it be. She had to shout it to the rooftops.

Andy is just her latest victim in a very long string of victims.

[Old Mouse]

38. Let me set this straight

There are over 50,000 people on DU now. They have been brought here because the freedom of the United States is at risk.

This woman attacks people, that seems to be what she does. As long as she is attacking Bush, the vast majority of these people probably don't care. She can attack you, and I won't care. She can attack me, and I won't care.

She has been effective, and as long as she was being effective I purposefully ignored all of the personal banter that went back and forth.

But the personal attacks are transforming into groundless charges of embezzlement, which threaten her effectiveness. You don't know me, and have no reason to trust me, and I am not going to offer up evidence, but I tell you this whole thing about money is being agitated by some very smooth operators.

All of your early DU'ers need to realize how large this community has grown. Your personal relationships, histories and reputations do not hold much meaning for the new majority here. This was your place, you created it, built it. But we are here now. we are here because we want to save the world and ourselves from Bush. Separate your emotions from this fight!

[Boredtodeath]

39. A new, willing victim for Bev

I'm sure she'll be ringing you up right away. She needs a new one.

This has nothing to do with DU - it's about the abuse this woman has heaped on people.

You reap what you sow and Bev Harris has sown some very nasty seeds.

Bev Harris won't save anyone from Bush. She can't even save herself.

You need to understand that Bev Harris had nothing until DUers stepped up to the plate and did all the research FOR her.

That's why Bev Harris is failing today; she has driven away all the knowledge and assistance. Now she's floundering with innuendo and allegations. She is incapable of producing anything else because she has no one who will work with her - she drove them all away.

edit:
And, just so you know, if you're counting on Bev Harris to find fraud in this election, you will be sorely disappointed. Fraud could jump up and bite Bev Harris in the ass and she doesn't have the skills to recognize it.

[Old Mouse]

43. Stop fighting this on the boards

You are not listening. Even if you are 100% right, which I do not question, you are doing more harm than good.

[WildEyedLiberal]

49. Let me get this straight. Someone posting truth does more harm than good?

You seem to think Bev Harris is some messiah who is going to save us all from Bush, and that any and all criticism of her should be silenced and squelched because it "hurts the cause."

Bev Harris' histrionic behavior is doing far more to hurt the cause than any DUer posting sense, and if you can't see that, then you are truly blind.

Your only response to a perfectly logical post is "don't argue this here, you're not listening to me." Which really just proves that YOU aren't listening, to anyone. Besides Bev Harris, that is.

[Old Mouse]

58. Take her place

I don't doubt she has done almost all of the things she has been accused of, but it has yet to be proven the negative press on MSNBC has undone the positive publicity she has generated so far. She is therefore still a valuable weapon.

If she in fact has NOT filed lawsuits in Florida as she claims, we should be up in arms. If there is no poll evidence from Volisua County, she will have committed perjury and will go to jail.

I am not on one side or the other in any of the personal claims against Bev Harris. If I had to choose a side, I would tend to believe she has a personality disorder, and all those people who are responding emotionally rather than logically are telling the truth. but I also believe these actions to be inconsequential when weighing the possibility of Black Box Voting's inaction.

Emotion is skewing judgment for many evaluating Bev's current effectiveness, and some are taking advantage of the volatile emotional state this is creating.

[WildEyedLiberal]

60. And don't you think that her "personality disorder"

... might be more of a hinderance for the BBV issue, since it causes rational people to take her much less seriously? Most people don't support or believe the claims of someone with a personal history of outrageous, borderline behavior. If you don't feel her personal behavior at all impacts her work on BBV or the public's perception of her (and BBV, for that matter), then I have a bridge to sell you.

Also, since you're so concerned about getting the issue out in the open, as opposed to defending Bev, it might interest you that she TURNED DOWN an offer by Penguin, a major publishing house, because of a stupid and petty personal dispute with her then-editor.

(Details in this thread.)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2021230

That's right. Because of Bev's personality issues - considered irrelevant by you - the book on Black Box Voting is obscure and available only as a free PDF download. Had Bev swallowed her ego and not let her personal problems interfere with the "cause," Black Box Voting could be in every Barnes and Noble and Borders in the NATION.

Now, if that isn't hurting our cause, I don't know what is. To claim that her personality problems have nothing to do with the professional perception of BBV and her work with BBV is naive at best.

[Old Mouse]

63. her personality

is outweighed by the lawsuits she has filed.

There have been so many books printed over the last year. We need to realize they are only read by the faithful. I consider that no loss at all.

And i think her 'behavior inappropriate for the occasion' if I may armchair diagnose, is very possibly the only reason she has the courage to start BBV in the first place. No sane person would.

And if it is a severe personality disorder, she needs help. This extreme negative feedback would throw anyone into a downward cycle.

Now THAT'S a sobering thought... I am exhausting myself pointing out the lack of actual damage she has done to the DU as a whole, but if she does have an undiagnosed condition the impact of being called out live on Randi's show combined with the massive posted anger here, well... I might have to change my mind. S**t.

[Tsiyu]

131. So write your own book?

And what the hell have all the nice, normal Democrats been doing?

[Pepper32]

45. She is doing more than attacking....

Where are the poll tapes and other evidence? That could really help our cause here, don't you think? We are at the 11th hour, after that the best we can hope for is * being impeached.

Until today I was neutral about Bev and her questionable actions. However, after what she did to Andy I see she is truly disturbed. It's bad enough we get called Conspiracy Nuts, now we have Bev making headlines on Keith O and proving them right. Whether his actions were wrong or right, she gave him the material for his show.

I'm sorry but there has to be a limit to how much bullshi* we have to take from BEV. She is not the only one trying to expose fraud and to act as if she is... Is like SLAPPING everyone else that IS, in the face. Whatever, good she is doing she is completely ruining is with her irrational behavior.

I guess you will support her until she tells you to fuc* off and publicly humiliate you, while you are going through some rough times in your life. Andy helped Bev, where his loyalty and respect? Oh that's right, forget him he's just another casualty of war, you have to remember the BIG prize. That sounds a lot like *

Well, I'm not going support her stepping on people.

[Old Mouse]

50. I don't care about Bev

I don't care about Andy, and I don't care about you. I don't know any of you.

Bev has a lawsuit in Florida based on the evidence she found. If she is a liar, she will go to jail.

Her successes in giving damage to Bush is more important to the damage she does to anyone else. I don't care if she did the research herself, or compiled it from work here on DU. She used it and we are all enjoying the benefit of the original publicity she generated.

It seems she may suffer from a personality disorder. That would make her volatile and unpleasant, possibly paranoid and antagonistic to those who have gone out of their way to help and aid her. I'm ok with that; She has lawsuits in Florida.

She can tell me to f**k off all she wants. It is the 11th hour and we're eating our own. All of you who feel offended or slighted need to put this behind you. You have the capacity, she seemingly does not. If Bush wins, a very large number of people are probably going to die in a mix of war, poverty and neglect. That's much more important to me than your feelings or reputations combined.

She is fighting on the front lines. Support her, replace her, or step off.

[Pepper32]

57. I don't need you to "care" about me! And when did I say I did?

I mean really, where in the hell did that come from??

Wait a minute, Bev is that you? Geez I hope not!

"Her successes in giving damage to Bush is more important to the damage she does to anyone else."

Say what? What successes? What damage has she done to Bush? Please do tell and I may change my opinion. She had a potential of exposing this issue even further if she would have just showed Keith O, Donald Duck or someone the poll tapes.


"It seems she may suffer from a personality disorder. That would make her volatile and unpleasant, possibly paranoid and antagonistic to those who have gone out of their way to help and aid her. I'm ok with that; She has lawsuits in Florida."

Hmmm so how far does this blind loyalty go? If she wakes up and decide to start slashing the throats of every election official she encounters. Not that I think she will. However, will you still support her?

What good is having Sybil supposedly take down Bush? You know what forget it. LMAO... You are too obvious. I'm done.

[Old Mouse]

61. It may seem that I have

an "end justifies the means" attitude, but I don't. I have limits, but she has not hit them yet.

If you are here at DU, and I am sure you are one of the originals, you must understand the importance of keeping George Bush from taking office in January.

This with me or against me attitude is not constructive. I do understand the horror of working with someone who if a functioning schizophrenic, but those who have been burned by Bev are trying to force the people on DU to choose whom they support. It is ridiculous, even stupid to charge me with "blind loyalty" when I say I believe you, but given the stakes I think you should take one for the team. You are, after all, the one who has rational capabilities.

Out of the tens of thousands of people on DU, the millions of listeners on Air America, I only know about two having lawsuits against this election, Arneback and Bev. Would you have us reduce that number by one because she personally is a bad person?

I am not involved with your relationship with Bev, and I don't want to be. I do not care who is right or wrong. I want those lawsuits.

[Pepper32]

64. Look Old Mouse, I already said I am done.

And no... I am not one of the "originals" but I have read some of the old archives that explained their position.

Everyone can't be wrong and Bev is right. Sorry, not buying it.

Anyway, follow whomever you want blindly or otherwise. Your looney defense for Bev is parallel to her actions. Very illogical...

ON EDIT: You still did not answer this question.

"Her successes in giving damage to Bush is more important to the damage she does to anyone else."

Say what? What successes? What damage has she done to Bush? Please do tell and I may change my opinion. She had a potential of exposing this issue even further if she would have just showed Keith O, Donald Duck or someone the poll tapes.

[Old Mouse]

65. you have a familiar speech pattern, have we met?

As for Bev's effectiveness, there are people in another forum pouring over the IP address she provided, and it is proving quite interesting.

Anyone else provide an IP address calling out of an actual Black Box machine? Any one else have open lawsuits against the election? That is being effective.

As for my loyalty to Bev, read this carefuly as you seem to misquote with alarming frequency:

Don't know her, don't care to, but she's done more than me, and she's done more than you.

I believe we have the same greater goals in mind. but honestly, you seem much more emotionally vested in this Bev/anti-Bev thing than me, in fact I find your passion on the subject, the passion of all involved, the willingness to attack, shocking.

There are more importiant things afoot here. Other fish to catch.

[Pepper32]

66. Is she paying you? I have to question YOUR motives.

I have total of maybe 6 post that are "anti Bev" Do a search, you will see I was a fan of Bev until she proved to me she is a loose cannon. Even after the MSNBC fiasco I reserved judgement.

As for me knowing you. Doubt it.

And what have I mis-quoted? You say so much, yet you have said NOTHING.

You have yet to answer my questions.

"Any one else have open lawsuits against the election? That is being effective."

Umm yes... Cliff Arnebeck http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/121604Z.shtml
Tell me this is not effective...LOL

http://joeorgren.com/MossvBush1.pdf
http://joeorgren.com/MossvBush2.pdf

[Kelvin Mace]

70. Bev has no clue what she is talking about

]i]Anyone else provide an IP address calling out of an actual Black Box machine? Any one else have open lawsuits against the election? That is being effective.

The IP address is a non-routable address, which means it CANNOT address another machine over the Internet. It is used for "private" networks and by that, I mean networks that are NOT accessible to the net. I know this as I use one myself for ALL my networks.

And YES, before you ask, I DO know what I am talking about, I am a systems engineer. One of the major reasons Bev split with me was I would not buy into the same paranoid fantasies about dark cabals and "psyops" you are buying into.

Bev Harris' name is toxic and anyone trying to fix this problem had best avoid citing her.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Old Mouse]

71. I would never question your judgment

And you seem to ignore the fact that I do not doubt your truthfulness or experience. I do not doubt your reputation. I doubt your motivation. your personal grudge is interfering with my desire for survival.

Your observation was practically in the first line of the thread about the IP address. No news there. I knew that before I even mentioned it. That is not, however, the end of the story. The work, and it seems to be good work too, continues over at BBV.

Your personal experience wit her seems to blind you to the fact that she is doing work no one else is. You demand everyone on DU to choose Bev's side or the side of those against her. I think most of us don't want to choose sides at all. Hurt feelings are inconsequential compared to the magnitude of the task we face.

This whole conversation is creating the false notion that DU and the resistance underground has some sort of ownership or rights over BBV. Well, we don't. If you gave money, like I did, it was a donation, not an investment. She has full authority to spend that money as she sees fit. She seems to have spent it going to Florida and placing lawsuits and launching freedom of information acts. I got MY money's worth right there.

I don't know Bev and I don't know you, but she appeared on the radio empowering Randi with something akin to evidence of fraud when no one else did. It doesn't matter if you or someone else did the work to uncover it, she is the one who got it higher into the public discourse. She seemed at the time to be lucid enough and presented her information in a way that got noticed and made converts.

Is she borderline psychotic? Maybe, I don't know. But if she is, she has been that way all along. It is not something that she could help, or something that she just suddenly did to spite anyone. If you didn't spot that when you first started working with her, I'm sorry, but that's your bad. I should know, I've made that same mistake and had to spend over fifteen thousand dollars in legal fees to extract myself.

The people with greater rational capacity have the greater responsibility. All of this activity is most likely making her more unstable, and threatening the outcome of multiple legal actions. Is she the best person to be in charge of these legal actions? Possibly not, but she is the only one to step up and place them.

The level of paranoia necessary to accept national presidential voter fraud is alright, but the level necessary to believe those who did it would protect themselves is not? There are more than just freeper-creepers here.

[Boredtodeath]

76. You have your story backwards

There were and still are dedicated activists fighting this issue tooth and nail.

Those activists were on this issue before Bev Harris came along. What Bev Harris did was take their work, put it in a book, and slap her name on it. She STOLE their work. From the very beginning.

Yet, these very same people are still working their asses off on this issue. All they care about is the truth, not the cameras.

The fact that Bev Harris was the one grandstanding in front of the cameras was because of Bev Harris and no one else. She STOLE the work of many and made herself the public figure with the fruits of their labor.

Those people are still working on this issue.

The only problem I see is that Bev Harris has been cut off from the scientific work and has nothing left but hyperbole and spin. She has no facts. She's useless to this issue and she chose that path, not the people who are, to this day, working their asses off to save our democracy.

[Tsiyu]

133. I'm a little foggy here. How do you steal public info?

And I would hand over any research I had to someone who would get recognition. See, this election isn't about my FEELINGS. It's about saving my COUNTRY.

Wow.

[Kelvin Mace]

79. REALLY?

Your personal experience with her seems to blind you to the fact that she is doing work no one else is.

Really? And what work might that be? Derailing the efforts of people who really ARE working on this. The only she is doing is discrediting the entire movement and we must not allow her to do this.

If this was REALLY a personal "vendetta" issue, I certainly wouldn't refrain from attacking her on the bbv.com web site that gets a LOT of traffic. (The reverse is not true, Bev has used BBV.org to attack me).

You demand everyone on DU to choose Bev's side or the side of those against her. I think most of us don't want to choose sides at all.

Could you please post any thread of mine where I DEMAND people pick a side?

Hurt feelings are inconsequential compared to the magnitude of the task we face.

Hurt feelings? This is about ruined reputations and vicious lies.

I don't know Bev and I don't know you, but she appeared on the radio empowering Randi with something akin to evidence of fraud when no one else did.

You may not know me, or Rox, or Eloriel or about a dozen other people at DU, but you know our work.

Bev has not produced ONE iota of evidence to prove fraud. NOTHING!

The level of paranoia necessary to accept national presidential voter fraud is alright,/i]

Well, I for one do NOT accept this contention, never have. When someone shows me SOLID proof, we'll talk. Conjecture, speculation, and wishful thinking are NOT proof.

but the level necessary to believe those who did it would protect themselves is not? There are more than just freeper-creepers here.

More paranoia without foundation.

[Old Mouse]

81. Again I say I believe you

She is in lawsuits in Florida. No one else here is. That's a valid point. She brought in much needed publicity. That is a valid point.

But at this time I don't even know what your point is. You are just cutting and pasting like a board poster from 1995, a tactic that makes me think all you care about is winning some argument, but you are not making any rational arguments that I can discern. I know you worked with her and had a very bad experience. I can respect that. You think her personality is dangerous and endangers something, but I can't tell what you believe she endangers, to clarify: what is your vision of the nature of this activist movement? Do you believe in limited voter manipulation, or do you subscribe to the idea of a massive conspiracy?

Please gather your thoughts and tell me what your point is. At this point I really want to know. I promise to listen and respond with thought.

[Garbo 2004]

86. I'm aware of only 2 suits in FL . I mention that only because

sometimes when people mention lawsuits in FL it may sound like there are a plethora of BBV sponsored/related suits in FL. In November there was talk of initiating hand recounts in some counties if materials for the FOIA's were not produced in a timely manner, but since the deadline for filing recount requests has long passed such recount requests are not a present option. So the two suits that have been filed to date as far as I'm aware:

One asks the court to compel LePore/Palm Beach County to comply with the FOIA and produce all materials requested.

The second filed by a local (who had legal standing to do so) is to contest the election results in the Sup of Elections race in Volusia county and to secure and seal specific elction materials in Volusia. Filed a day after the deadline to contest election results and subsequently amended/refiled I believe.

Just clarifying, perhaps for myself, if not others. OK. Never mind. As you all were, carry on. ;)

[Old Mouse]

92. Thanks! n/t

[Kelvin Mace]

87. It seems to me

She is in lawsuits in Florida. No one else here is. That's a valid point. She brought in much needed publicity. That is a valid point.

The real skulduggery is in Ohio. Bev is busy distracting folks with her grandstand plays, of which NO evidence has come forward to buttress her claims.

But at this time I don't even know what your point is. You are just cutting and pasting like a board poster from 1995, a tactic that makes me think all you care about is winning some argument,

Huh? This is new. I do this to save people having to switch back and forth between posts for context. I preserve the context so that the point I am addressing remains cogent.

You see this a "wrong"?

I am sorry you cannot discern my rational, I won't speculate as to why.

but I can't tell what you believe she endangers,

All of the hard work we have put in will be discredited by one lone glory-monger. What's so hard to understand?

Do you believe in limited voter manipulation, or do you subscribe to the idea of a massive conspiracy?

My views are public record. Go to my site and read them. Unlike posts on Bev's site, mine do not "disappear".

Please gather your thoughts and tell me what your point is. At this point I really want to know. I promise to listen and respond with thought.

I have made my points. Either you refuse to see them or you are simply wasting my time.

[Old Mouse]

90. My time is as valuable as yours

And spent in a much more civil tone.

I think I now understand you are posting in too many forums at once.

So you do not believe Bev is actually involved in lawsuits or freedom of information acts in Florida? If I understand correctly, you are claiming her level of fraud is higher than most expected.

Cutting and pasting only serves to remove segments of a point from a rational statement. Anything can be dissected that way and becomes meaningless words, with the correct context only in the mind of the poster;. A tactic developed in the early web days by those only concerned with winning an argument. Perhaps you believe you are just being expedient, but I give you the respect of fully articulating every point I have.

I am not gong to your site. You started commenting on my post, remember? I took the leap of faith to post an opinion clearly not popular. You claimed she is causing damage to the cause. Please frame your answer: what do you believe the cause to be?

The glory-monger is a statement I hear loud and clear, thank you. But I do not necessarily agree. Publicity is a strange beast, and what might seem negative could actually be useful.

[Kelvin Mace]

113. At this point, it is obvious you are quite disingenious

So you do not believe Bev is actually involved in lawsuits or freedom of information acts in Florida? If I understand correctly, you are claiming her level of fraud is higher than most expected.

I have said NO such thing. I have never accused her of FRAUD, quite the contrary. I have never said she was not involved in lawsuits in Florida.

Cutting and pasting only serves to remove segments of a point from a rational statement. Anything can be dissected that way and becomes meaningless words, with the correct context only in the mind of the poster;. A tactic developed in the early web days by those only concerned with winning an argument. Perhaps you believe you are just being expedient, but I give you the respect of fully articulating every point I have.

Well, THAT is quite a unique interpretation of the facts.

I am not gong to your site. You started commenting on my post, remember? I took the leap of faith to post an opinion clearly not popular. You claimed she is causing damage to the cause. Please frame your answer: what do you believe the cause to be?

You are CLEARLY wasting my time. You are not interested in the truth.

If you wish to believe Bev is your Messiah, be my guest.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Old Mouse]

114. So you still cut and paste?

"If you wish to believe Bev is your Messiah, be my guest."

Please explain

[Kelvin Mace]

117. They are called words

each one has a specific meaning. A dictionary is a book that defines big words you don't understand.

Do you require a link to a dictionary?

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Old Mouse]

124. I tire of offering you the chance to be civil

If I have this correct you believe Bev Harris
is not committing fraud
has no idea what she is talking about
she is making your life hell with her lies
is derailing the efforts of people who really are working on this. (but you won't say what 'this' is, you will only direct me to your web site apparently to read your manifesto)
is discrediting the entire movement (but you won't say what the 'movement' is, you will only direct me to your web site apparently to read your manifesto)
is a Glory Hog
and has not produced one iota of evidence to prove fraud

You also believe
your reputation to be ruined, but don't say in what community or industry
there is no massive voter fraud (but I do not think you took the time to read that post you responded to correctly, so this is somewhat speculative)
the real skulduggery is in Ohio, although there is no massive voter fraud

You are a systems engineer, which is why you know so much about intelligence agents, PR and the press.

You believe I
speak paranoid drivel which is destroying the credibility of this issue.
have paranoid fantasies about dark cabals and "psyops"
thing Bev is the "messiah"
have some sort of reading comprehension problem
do not understand big words
and are simply wasting your time

and most perplexingly you
agree she has taken the time and energy to travel from the pacific northwest to file lawsuits and freedom of information acts in Florida
do not seem to be involved in any real way in either Florida or Ohio,
are angry she is distributing the book (you and others contributed to) on her site for free rather than make people give her money for it (a whopping #75,321 on Amazon, she must be raking it in)

Bev is the one with the reputation for personality difficulties, but in our short conversations you have demonstrated a propensity for inappropriate reactions to comments, paranoia (in a real and clinical sense, not your misuse of the concept for purposes of insult or degradation,) and a disproportionate sense of importance. I would suggest you check your DSM

If you agree she is actually working against voter manipulation in Florida, and that she is not committing fraud, yet compulsively post any time you see Bev's name, you seem to have no other point but to be annoying.

My father worked with the man you use as your avatar. If you respect that man enough to use his image to represent yourself, you should question if he would act and write the way you do.

[Kelvin Mace]

125. And I tire of you and the other

professional Bev apologists who deliberately try to distort the truth to protect your saviour.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Pepper32]

59. I just asked the same thing. They seem to have the same personality. n/t

[T Town Jake]

54. BEV HARRIS IS A TOTAL FRAUD.

(n/t)

[bunny planet]

84. I wouldn't necessarily care if she was a nice person either if she was

getting any results in a timely manner, which she is not. And her personality clashes with the press are not minor, not if we are blown off too because of our past association with her. Thankfully, thoughtful people have not done that yet, but if she continues to blather on in any public forum she can do damage.

I only joined this group in November. I hear that Bev got most of her information for her book from people here on DU, who's hard work she has taken credit for. If this is true, don't those same people, if they are still participants here, have the ability to do similar research or use the information she has already gathered ( if in fact she's really gathered anything) and extrapolate information to bring us to the same point she's already brought us to. Any thoughts on this? Rather than spend anymore time analyzing Bev, can't we just do damage control and try and salvage some of the research and move on?

[Old Mouse]

85. wow... good response

Thanks.

The timely response issue is indefensible.

I'm not ready to concede the work in the courts down in Florida is not in our benefit, and her clashes with the press have not yet seem to have done damage to us. In fact, if she were just a little more manageable she could be a marketable personality: "Crazy Grandmother takes on Bush Political Machine"

All that matters is publicity. We already have enough proof, we just have to get eyes on this story. An insane woman barging in on a retirement party may not seem the image we would want to craft, but as anyone in PR would know at this point its all about getting the cameras turned on. If the major networks had known she was going to pull a stunt like that, it would have been all over television. People here don't realize is that it is easier to turn "ridiculous" into "credible" than it is to turn "nothing" into "credible".

Many here are too emotionally involved in the issue. Perhaps she has burned a critical mass, and shunning is the only answer. I don't know, I see a wasted asset. Few here can rationally discuss the subject.

[demobabe]

94. why don't you

go over to blackboxvoting.org's forum and spend your time trying to help figure out some of the information bev harris has posted? seems to me the best way you can help bev and her reputation is to help show that some fraud occurred. riling up people here only makes them post more and more of her recent and past mistakes, and not furthering your case any.

[Maddy McCall]

98. The bev cult is as delusional as its leader.

Quote: "I'm not ready to concede the work in the courts down in Florida is not in our benefit, and her clashes with the press have not yet seem to have done damage to us."

My response: WTF are you smoking?

[Eloriel]

129. Just so you know

I've been reading this thread very carefully, and I do NOT consider you one of the "Few here (who) can rationally discuss the subject."

You're putting way too much importance in the one person, when as others have pointed out she's NOT the only game in town; you're not listening when others are speaking their valid points; you're ascribing motives to others and are just flat wrong about them; and you have what I consider an unhealthy (or at least unrealistic) reliance on Bev as some sort of savior -- someone whose work will save you from George Bush. Ain't gonna happen. You think others are too emotionally invested, but you yourself have just admitted that your own fear is driving you -- that's not all that rational. And yet you deign to judge others' "paranoia"? Amazing!

No one here is going to be able to save you from yourself -- that's clear, so welcome to it. But AFAIC, your credibility is about as low as Bev's right now.


Edited: Normally I don't bother to explain edits for typos, but in this case I feel compelled to make an exception. I changed readin to reading in the first paragraph.

[Kelvin Mace]

130. How can Bev "save us from George Bush"

when she considers him one of her supporters?

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Maddy McCall]

96. Bev's given you guys your marching orders, eh?

The prose of your post sounds VERY, VERY, VERY familiar; almost like that message from the so-called board of directors of BBV.

What a fucking laugh. Come out, Come out! LOL!

[Kelvin Mace]

119. The Bev Harris fire brigade?

or should I say, "the BBV Cleanup Crew"?

Ooops, now I will be sued by Bev for the 12th time this year.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[notadmblnd]

126. I agree, the powers that be are dancing a happy dance

You can't focus on the cause (which as I recall is proving election fraud) if you have the group fighting with each other.

I have kept silent and made no judgements about anyone involved in this. I try to keep in mind that there is a desparate group of people out there that are willing to do anything, including murder, to stop this fraud from being exposed. Causing dissention, keeping the pot stirred, destroying people's credibility are just childs play to them.

[Higans]

33. I looked through the log files Bev Mentioned

tons of pages. From the computer log entries it dosn't look like their counting votes at all.....ot looks as though they are
Just making belive they are counting the votes. That is why they feer a recount so much! they have no record at all!!!! take a look at the log data. does it really take a genus to figure that out? what do they think we are dumb?


Prove you counted any vote. I'll bet you can't even do that.

Is E-Voting ME-Voting? Prove it.

[GAspnes]

34. Well, you're right

but it's a meaningless point. In the past I've written logfile messages like "Ate another pizza" and "Boink-boink". It's the code emitting the message that is of interest -- the logfiles prove little or nothing.

[Higans]

37. Thats the Point. They can't prove they counted at all.

Because they don't.

Is E-Voting ME-Voting? Prove it!

[troubleinwinter]

40. For those who think we should just keep quiet...

Realize that we are people who are unwilling to look away when harm is done to others. It is WHY we are who we are.

The truth must be put out there for all to see.

If we ignore Bev's own past actions, we ignore our responsibility to those who may be harmed in the future. The truth is the truth. David posted her own words. While I don't speculate on her mental state, I think the information should be there for people to see before they choose to be her next associate.

Glad to see that you saved the page with her own words, David. I had PM'd some screen shots to Andy.

[Pepper32]

46. I completely agree... n/t

[Paligal]

41. She was on Randi Rhodes today saying Andy was still on board!

I am getting very confused about Black Box Voting and Bev Harris. I defended her over and over. But I am also getting concerned at this point. Just this afternoon, she was on the radio claiming that she knew nothing of Andy's not working for her anymore, that he went to a funeral and there was no problem. Only hours later, she does this, apparently in vengeance for...? Only she and Andy know. But she is not making herself look very good. It is not professional to air this internal dirty laundry, and indicates a lack of judgement or boundaries when she is upset, and that is disconcerting. I dismissed people's dislike of her as internal bickering and continued to support her. But as Randi Rhodes pointed out, her negligence in things like returning media phone calls and showing up to the Conyers hearing is damaging our movement and faith in her. Doubt is starting to niggle at me too. What's she up to? What's her motive in all this? Why is she kicking at all her allies in this fight to reveal election fraud? Something doesn't add up for me anymore.

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[greatauntoftriplets]

68. Bev lied to Randi, plain and simple.

The firing had been done before yesterday evening. Andy told me himself that he had been fired yesterday morning. In fact, he visited his local unemployment compensation office on Monday.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

62. I just saw Bev's announcement. How immature was that?

[Sparkle]

72. Just reading over this thread....

For someone that doesn't care about Bev, Plan_9 etc, he/she sure seem to post a lot of messages in this thread. Hint: it's a mouse!

Ignore the thread, silly!

[momzno1]

74. If it were all about the money, wouldn't she have

taken the settlement that Diebold was offering the State of California instead of taking it to Court?

Too many inconsistancies for me to make any "black and white" judgement.

People, come on, there are shades of gray here....

[liam97]

78. I know nothing about this

but is it possible that Bev is set up so her credibility is destroyed?

[Kelvin Mace]

88. No

she did it herself.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Snivi Yllom]

77. unbelievable

She's still at it. I can't anybody is still defending this fraud.

[thedevilinthedetails]

93. I much prefer the statement that is on Bev's site right now n/t

[Snivi Yllom]

95. anyone know what time BH was on randi Rhodes yesterday?

Trying to find it on the recording from yesterday

[n69n]

97. 1hr 54 mins

i believe she came in @ 1hr 54 mins

[Snivi Yllom]

104. thanks

[Snivi Yllom]

107. not there

hmmm

[shireen]

123. A DU'er posted it...

http://s93151849.onlinehome.us/bev.mp3
http://legion.gibbering.net/eik/bev.mp3
It was posted at DU at http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x163206

[Pale_Rider]

122. The only thing Bev may be guilty of ...

... is not being of a computer science background and listening to many "experts". I've seen too many computer "experts" that are nothing more than "pud-knockers".

[bitchkitty]

132. Why not give it a rest?

This is starting to get silly. What's next? I know you are but what am I? The PeeWee Herman school of election fraud activism?