What if Kerry...

[garybeck]

This is just a hypothetical that flew through my head so don't shoot me.

Remember how Kerry was far behind in the primary polls, before Iowa, and everyone was surprised that he won Iowa?

What if Rove set up Kerry by getting him involved in election fraud. What if a Rove operative offered him a way to win the nomination, and Kerry had no idea that it was connected to Rove.

Then, when it becomes apparent that Bush used election fraud to win the general election, Kerry's hands are tied because he knows if there is a real investigation he'll go down too.

That would be checkmate for Rove.

It's just a late night hypothetical thought and I hope it isn't true. But it's one of many possible explanations as to why Kerry hasn't fought more directly and spoken publicly for recounts and lawsuits.

I prefer the stealth bomber hypothesis.

[Fiona]

1. People weren't very surprised he won Iowa

he was surging there, Dean was dropping. It wasn't an upset victory by any stretch.

[anamandujano]

17. Why do polls matter sometimes and not others?

I thinks it's 50/50 that the original poster's thought is correct.

[Fiona]

25. Huh?

Do you have polls that show Dean far ahead the day before the caucus?

Do you have polls showing Kerry NOT gaining in Iowa the week before?

I think it's 50/50 that some people are a little too paranoid.

[anamandujano]

38. Remember the election night exit polls?--THEY ARE POLLS,

but they did not matter. Why do the polls you're citing here matter? They are put together by the same folks who brought us this bogus election.

And, I read further down about how Iowa votes with people only, fine--who gives up after one primary? Dean probably got roved by the machines in the other states before he stopped.

[Fiona]

42. I honestly have no idea what you're trying to say

I asked you if you had polls showing Dean leading by a large margin just prior to the caucus.

I'm not citing any polls - you're claiming the outcome differed greatly from the polls. I'm asking you what polls you're referring to.

Dean didn't give up after one primary, either. In fact, after the first caucus, he promised to "go to New Hampshire, go to North Carolina, go to Washington DC, go to New York, etc. etc. yeaaaargh"

[anamandujano]

51. I'll try to simplify further--

there are polls everyday by the MSM, and you seem to be taking them as real. If a CNN poll said this, then you believe it. If a Reuter's poll said that, then you can quote it faithfully. I think the polls say whatever the powers that be want them to say. They call whoever they want with carefully worded questions and who's to verify.

However exit polls (for instance those on election night) are real people who voted. Exit polls were relied on by one and all (including repuke mouthpiece Dick Morris) until the Bush cabal hit town. These polls are not considered reliable now by the MSM except for touting moral values as the big issue putting Bush back in the White House.

Also read recently that in Florida during the McBride/Reno primary for gov candidate the race was rigged so that Jeb wouldn't have to run against the popular Reno.

In a nutshell, I don't cite polls or place any faith in them. I think they're mainly there to lead people and make those with opposing views feel marginalized.

[Fiona]

53. I see

you put no faith in polls, yet you believe that Dean was polling ahead of Kerry just prior to the Iowa Caucus. Interesting.

[anamandujano]

61. You keep putting words in my mouth.

This could go on forever but it's not worth it.

[knowbody0]

how's your blood sugar?

[Catherine Vincent]

2. Well then they'll both go down.

[thjay]

3. have another drink and head off to bed

[Maddy McCall]

4. You give Rove far too much credit.

Kerry won the primary in Iowa fair and square. Some people at DU have yet to come to terms with that.

[New Earth]

5. you're not alone

i posed the same scenario a few weeks ago and everyone told me to calm down. i still think of the possibility though, and it's a little frightening.

[saracat]

13. Not possible. He catered to the youth vote and they didn't vote for him.

Pure and simple. They researched the university Centers and that wasn't how the vote went. The exit polls match and nothing is out of sync. You might wonder why we can run primaries but not general elections!

[Fiona]

26. exit polls?

in a caucus?

[saracat]

30. Well, maybe that is the wrong term for it . But they did follow the

caucuses and were able to determine how the people had voted or caucused? Anyway the lack of support for Dean in the University towns was astounding.I remember the newscasters commenting on it during that primary night!

[Borgnine]

6. I've considered that too.

There was just something fishy about the way Kerry stepped down, and if the rumors that Edwards wanted to keep fighting but Kerry didn't are true, then your scenario could surely be possible.

[seito]

7. O.M.G.!!!!!!!!!!!

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!! :tinfoilhat:

[Skink]

16. Another interesting scenario which involves Nader..

and the N.H. recount is that there very well may have been machine manipulation giving Kerry a win over Dean. It was shown that Dean won the punchcard tallies but lost heavily against the machines. Kerry probably was not involved in that however.

[Fiona]

27. True

but the punchcard counties bordered Vermont, and the machine counties bordered Massachusetts.

[garybeck]

44. still, that is a little freaky

if there's a correlation between type of voting machine and anything Kerry's won or lost

[LittleClarkie]

18. You'd think he'd keep away from the fraud talk with a ten-foot pole then

He wouldn't be posing, or dipping a toe in, or any of it. He'd be gone so fast he'd have left skid marks. He wouldn't have signed his name 88 times. He wouldn't have included himself in lawsuits.

That is NOT the Kerry I know and love. Not at all.


:tinfoilhat: indeed and also :crazy:

[ginnyinWI]

33. I'm with ya, LittleClarkie

You are right about that--he'd be doing nothing now. Besides, if someone helped him out and he knew nothing about it, how could they accuse him and make it stick?

:)

[malatesta1137]

35. but he IS keeping away from the fraud talk

or you think these letter and 'lawsuits' are going anywhere?

They are designed to trick his base into believing he's doing something.

[LittleClarkie]

41. Most of his base has moved on

I can't get fraud talk going here at home to save my life. Hell, I've only found 2 people to talk to about it, and one person who will at least talk about fixing the voting system. Otherwise it's "Get over it, we lost." I have yet to run into anyone I know who was a Dem supporter who's bashing Kerry right now.

I wish I had some solid numbers. All I have is the 80% who thought he did the right thing in conceeding in some poll somewhere (which one?)

I suspect we're not a big enough voting block to bother to trick.

[malatesta1137]

43. Kerry can't afford to lose ANYONE from his base

he's thinking like a politician, he's doing everything measured not upset conservatives and moderates and the so-called 'liberals' who think there was fraud but are pretty happy with his concession.

True liberals, like me, had enough with this pandering. I wouldn't vote for Kerry again even if OJ Simpson were his opponent.

[LittleClarkie]

46. What are your Kerry credentials, sir?

How much time have you spent studying the man, his positions and his personal history? What books and articles have you read?

Just trying to get a picture of where you're coming from.

[malatesta1137]

52. studying the man?

are you serious?? I study Da Vinci, Verdi, Hitchcock. John Kerry, like every politician, can be figured out by an 8 year-old in 10 minutes.

ESPECIALLY after his dismal behavior on Nov 3, which shocked even his running mate. I am giving him until Jan 6, waiting to see if this 'behind the scenes strategy' of his has any legs.

YOU seem to have a lot of Kerry credentials (gulp), please go ahead, enlighten us about the man, explain to us why he caved so fast.

[LittleClarkie]

54. I would expect a supporter of a candidate have at least read up on the man

If you're just assuming things because Kerry is a politician, and on no other evidence, you are selling the man short. I'm no Kerry scholar, but as a former Clarkie and an ABBer, I had to research Kerry before I could get myself fully on the bandwagon.

There's not much I can say that will swing you away from your bias against politicians in general, but here me out anyway, please, since you've asked.

One thing I know is that Kerry is a prosecutor. It's said that he took so long responding to the Swiftees in part because he wanted to compile compelling evidence to put the thing to rest. He called Rood. He tried to get letters from the deceased skipper's wife (Droz, I think it was.) He's a bit obesessive compulsive, but that's a good thing when you're a prosecutor, if not a candidate.

Are you aware of his history re: the Iran/Contra scandal and the BCCI? That Poppy was one of the people he came close to getting in that scandal? Why would someone who's spent a lifetime fighting corruption just cave? Esp. against people he's investigated before (some of them holdovers from Nixon and Ford?)

I saw an article about BCCI on Dec. 19th. Kerry blasted the Bank of England for not doing more to fight the kind of corruption that was evident in the BCCI, and stood with the ones who lost money in that bank when it collapsed. He's been on that case since 1991 at least. He had no political interest in saying a mumbling word. No one who can vote for him was going to see him fighting in England. And yet 10 years after the fact, there he is, still fighting.

I'm in this for the long term.

Based on his past history, I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt. He may have been slow off the block in understanding that these people were perfectly capable of stealing an electoral landslide, but I think he's got it now. But as with the Swiftees, he's likely getting his ducks in a row. And as a prosecutor, I would expect he wouldn't hop in unless he though he had a provable case.

If he can't fight them now, he will fight for election reform once he gets back to work, among other things like children's health care. I've seen him be faithful before. I expect the same now.

[malatesta1137]

58. thank you for the time it took you to write this

I was indeed aware of his Iran Contra and BCCI investigations.

I applaud Kerry for those, but NOW is when America needs him the most. I want him to use those same skills NOW. Time is running short.

I am also giving him the benefit of the doubt and I am prepared to eat my own harsh words and wash them down with gasoline if he proves me wrong by Jan 6.

After that date, I am sorry, all efforts (his or others') will be simply wasted.

[LittleClarkie]

59. BCCI took 4 years to bring down

I will give him considerably longer. I will be watching.

I suppose January 6th is your deadline because you believe the election will be overturned.

I'm skeptical that it will. Indeed, the Kerry camp keeps saying they're NOT trying to overturn the election, and I believe them. Kerry said that all votes will be counted. He's taken steps to make sure they are. Kerry said he would fight for election reform. The current investigations will be useful evidence for that.

If he can Watergate these people along the way, I hope he does.

I hope something dramatic happens on Jan. 6th. I would love it. But the candidate we nominated is a steady guy. If he thinks his actions would destabilize the country, I don't think he will do that. Just my take.

[malatesta1137]

63. 4 more years of Bush

will DEFINITELY destabilize the country, I don't think Kerry should use that as an excuse not to act now.

If you've got the goods on fraud, Mr. Kerry, be a true American and bring down these killers NOW.

[LittleClarkie]

64. He's not using it as an excuse, I'm using it as an explanation

Your operative word is IF.

If he doesn't have the goods now I wouldn't rule out the idea that he will keep going until he does have the goods, even if takes a while. Investigations take time; you don't just add water and mix.

I wouldn't want him to come out if he doesn't have the goods. What we don't need his for him to try and fail. I've heard people say "at least Gore fought for us." Yeah, but the Gore Plan failed. I don't need Kerry to fail.

If he doesn't act now, it's because he doesn't have enough hard evidence now.

All I'm trying to say is I disagree with your Jan 6 deadline. I don't think there's much chance of Kerry flipping the election. But I do expect him to continue the fight for election reform and the other issues he's talked about.

[buzzard]

8. I believe he has too much integrity for this.

[Alizaryn]

9. I had the very same thing pop through my head.

(Then I squashed it)

[Melissa G]

20. The idea was quashed for me by an Iowa friend who said

the Iowa process made it highly unlikely. The Rove story in my mind is the collusion of the msm to bring Dean down with a gazillion to one negative comments, the fake Dean scream and the constant lack of scrutiny of Bush policies and lame general idiocy.

[lonestarnot]

10. Nopa a dope dope! Not!

[SueZhope]

11. you have a great imagination

nothing wrong with that..
(unless its keeping you up at night)
Did I read somewhere that you got 3 hours sleep..was that you?

[New Earth]

12. actually my scenarios was different

i was afraid Rove or republican officials - whoever - would also tabulate the vote count fraudulently in some ares to favor Kerry, to later shoot back that it didn't only happen to favor Bush. kind of like - falsely making it look like Democrats tried to cheat too.

[IndyPriest]

19. Faye! You DO have the makings of a criminal mind!

That could be a useful trait! LOL!

[seito]

22. Indeed

:evilgrin:

[buzzard]

29. That was my thinking as well Faye.

[IndyPriest]

14. I don't think Arnebeck would be pursuing this

if he thought it would somehow expose Kerry. They've been friends for too long.

[garybeck]

45. really?

that's the first I've heard of Arnebeck and Kerry being friends. interesting.

[helderheid]

15. I'm sorry...

but Iowa had caucuses - real people counting real people - not machines counting votes.

[LittleClarkie]

21. Rove has discovered a secret way

to calibrate PEOPLE!!!

(non sequitor -- why did my brain just say "Soylent Green")






(because I got 2 hours of sleep last night, I reckon)





:hangover:

[helderheid]

23. LMAO!!!!

Thanks for the "Soylent Green" comment! :)

[seito]

24. OMG Laugh my *ss off

This thread has made my day. You guys are too much.

[garybeck]

47. I didn't mean just Iowa....

Read above, supposedly there is a correlation between type of voting machine and Kerry victory in NH. I'm not saying Kerry's involved and I certainly don't want to believe it. I'm just saying it's an interesting thought. It would make a good movie.

[spooked911]

28. I've thought of something similar to this

but I doubt it overall.

[GetTheRightVote]

31. Not Kerry, Never, lost to many friends to & and company

Kerry would never trust them ever, besides he would not what something that he did not earn for himself.

[txindy]

32. Inquiring minds have to know...

Are you on some sort of medication? Thanks for the laugh!

[seito]

34. I know txindy

This is almost as good as Bleever's poetry.

Laugh

My

*ss

Off

[garybeck]

48. yes

it's called lack of sleep. does wonders for the imagination.

[Vektor]

36. Ok, I won't shoot you, but...

I have to give you one of these. -> :tinfoilhat:

:-)

There's no way. Say what you want about Kerry...(most of what people suppose about him is unfair/untrue anyway) but I don't even think Charles Manson would want to get involved with the evil that is Rove.

ICK.

Besides, there is no way this sweet piece of donkey:
http://www.time.com/time/personoftheyear/2004/people/3.html
could or would ever have anything to do with the stinking Rove-hole.

[garybeck]

49. I agree, but

my scenario did not involve Kerry knowing that he was working with Rove. it was a Rove operative, perhaps posing as a Democratic supporter, that goes and talks to Kerry.

I would think the entire idea is garbage, because Kerry knows about the Senate bill to require a paper trail and there's no way someone could come and approach him like that without him knowing what's up.

[Vektor]

50. I see...

...what you're saying. It seems a little far-fetched, but this whole entire election situation is so entirely effed up, I don't know what to think. I'm not sure if there were Rove operatives involved in fixing the primaries, (though I don't put it past that vile man to have his grubby little fingers in everything...)but I cannot help but wonder what the deal with Kerry is.

A lot of people have been criticizing him for "not doing enough" - but if you look at his past history, (his war protest efforts, BCCI/Iran Contra, etc..) he has NEVER been one to keep quiet to avoid upsetting the status quo. Whether a person likes him or not, they have to admit, he HAS always been vocal about things he sees as injustices. It has NEVER been in his nature to clam up and leave well enough alone. If he is NOT investigating behind the scenes, he is likely under duress. He has spent his entire life making noise and rocking the boat, there's no logical reason why he would stop now.

Either he IS doing something, or he is being threatened. As tinfoil hat as THAT may sound...who the hell knows?

[hvn_nbr_2]

37. Iowa - caucuses - real people - real counts

The only way to fake the results would be to put the whole state of Iowa in a state of suspended animation for long enough for people to go to every caucus site and change the counting sheets. Even then the cameras would show everyone in suspended animation. I'm as puzzled as anyone at Kerry's early concession and lack of fight, and by now I'm suspecting he must have been threatened somehow, but Iowa caucus fraud wasn't it.

[helderheid]

39. Thank you! n/t

[rumpel]

40. I would be in denial if that were true. As Small business Committee Chair

I had complained to him once. In his response, I saw he was sincere, and this was way before he announced to run. It was not a form letter and I am not a constituent of his State.
I would think it would be hard to believe, he would personally approve it. Look at his BCCI investigation, he put everything on the line to get out the truth.

[m.standridge]

55. sometimes I think, too

that we have to remember that this is all relatively new phenomena.
So even very progressive politicians like Kerry are still not on top of the full import of some of the potential computer "stuff."
The fact that an election in a big state can be manipulated on a computer in less than thirty minutes--a fact demonstrated at least a couple of times on TV programs live--is still sinking in with a lot of people.

I'm not even sure it's sunk in 100% on the GOP! They probably have some techie types but there's little in the bigger party about it.

So, when people talk about a "recount", it just gets lost on a lot of people. It seems clear that just a "plain" recount won't turn OH around, and might even reveal some odds and ends Demos did, too.

The fact the recount itself my reveal something, is what's interesting about this.
Machine manipulation, computer programming things, these are new things.
No one is probably 100% on top of this stuff. They're just doing it on the cuff, with whoever's competent to do it, if they're on-scene, doing it.
Does this add anything?

[Generator]

56. Worst post ever

Good lord, if you think that's what our side is made of, why even be a Dem?

[roenyc]

57. no not a rove thing for Kerry

he has way to much integrity.

but one thing bothers me. the skull and bones thing. it bothered me from day one. dont like it. dont like that he has that connection with bush. they are so called "brothers" and at one time shared "secrets". does bush have something on him? does bush have something on McCain. hell what is in these peoples closets?

now the "is he being threatened" i thought as soon as he conceded, he must have a gun to his head.

now if he comes out fighting will he be considered a flip flopper? is he wondering that?

[Kota]

69. The scull and bones thing is crap.

Kerry is not involved in any election fraud.

[delphine]

60. I have another scenario:

What if Kerry just doesn't want to make waves about this because he thinks it hurts his chances in 2008. And he's got a good gig right now and he confirmed on election night that his big ticket donors are basically on board for 2008.

And what if he just doesn't get it? What if he just doesn't see that exit polls are used world wide to verify vote counts? What if he doesn't want us talking about election fraud all day? What if he just thinks he lost and thinks getting another chance in 2008 is more important than fighting right now?

What if he's just done running for prez altogether?

For that matter, someone explain why he has had nothing to say about the Rumsfeld armor fiasco or the unprotected mess hall or the "social security has weapons of mass destruction" bullshit.

What if he's just not gonna fight for us?

Yeah, what if I AM crushed and disillusioned. I'll get over it.

[seito]

62. OK, If you are going to criticize someone,

it might help to do a little research first

http://www.lightupthedarkness.org/blog/default.asp?view=plink&id=145

I think it is safe to say that the majority of people here have not thoroughly researched exactly what John Kerry did or did not do, but baseless allegations do NOTHING to help the cause.

What if John Kerry is really a Rove plant?

What if John Kerry really is a freaking coward, and just went to Vietnam and earned all those medals on a Skull and Bones dare?

What if John Kerry made a secret pact with John McCain, to intentionally throw the election because he wanted to keep little Shrubs tax break?

:tinfoilhat: Shall I keep going lol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[kerrygoddess]

65. Thanks Seito...

I was about to post the link to the Kerry Statement on Rumsfeld and saw that you had!

LOL! Research is too hard for some folks!

[roenyc]

66. I heard he was going to Iraq

shortly. and knowing Kerry he will not be bringing a plastic turkey and running off.

[corbett]

67. By January 6th, All Hypothesizing Will End

In an information vacuum, it's really easy to allow your mind to wander off on intellectual escapades like this. As mentioned in a previous reply, Kerry has way too much integrity to try to pull off something like this. Besides, if the fix really were in a whole year ago, he wouldn't have mortgaged his home to fund his campaign's cash crunch.

Kerry is the real deal and will be president VERY SOON, like by Presidents' Day 2005!

[suziedemocrat]

68. Can you have fraud in Caucuses like Iowa?

Wouldn't fraud be more difficult in a Caucus than a regular election?

[keepthemhonest]

70. the first fallacy to your argument

is that you assume Kerry has no integrity. i don't believe that Kerry would want to hold an office that he did not win fair and square. I know that is how I am when it comes to life and I believe Kerry has the same integrity. He has nothing to hide about the election.Rove would be pointing at Iowa this very moment if he thought there was something to overturn there.

[satori]

71. You are correct

The Republican powers that be are masters of deception. They use the same sort of lie techniques that the CIA uses.

You are correct Rove is setting up Kerry trying to get him involved in Election Fraud via Conyers. Conyers supports anti-semitism as does Moore http://www.jewishjournal.com/home/preview.php?id=9576

The Rove strategy is like they did in 2000 and 2004 which is to have the Repug spies such as Conyers and Moore define the Dem strategy for 2005 to counter the Repugs. The Repugs are going to be running free Moore ads, the more publicity Rove can give Moore the more votes the Republicans get in the future. The Repugs picked Kerry to run against them because they knew he would not win against Bush. If General Clark was running General Clark would of won 58% Clark 42% Bush

So Rove picked Conyers and Moore. Some of the best spies that were ever used in history were never even paid to be spies nor did they even know that they were spies. Conyers and Moore are Rove Republican plants set up to divide the party.

I think Madsen senses this but is probably overwhelmed by it all.

http://www.jewishjournal.com/home/preview.php?id=9576
http://www.geocities.com/munichseptember1972/antiglobalism_jewish_problem.htm
http://www.jdl.org/position/moore.shtml

[kerrygoddess]

72. good lord!!!

"If General Clark was running General Clark would of won 58% Clark 42% Bush"

Talk about conjecture... If General Clark was running? How about Clark did not make it through the damn primaries and it had nothing to do with Kerry being a Rovian plant.

Kerry has been planning his friggin life to run for President!

Put your tinfoil hat back on and drink some more koolaid...

[kerrygoddess]

73. good lord!!!

"If General Clark was running General Clark would of won 58% Clark 42% Bush"

Talk about conjecture... If General Clark was running? How about Clark did not make it through the damn primaries and it had nothing to do with Kerry being a Rovian plant.

Kerry has been planning his friggin life to run for President!

Put your tinfoil hat back on and drink some more koolaid...


Click here to go back to the main forums.

[RaulVB]

74. Quit drinking (n/t)

[delphine]

75. This is just wierd

While Kerry has been much more cautious than I'd prefer, there is no use resorting to tin foil hat conspiracies about Kerry being involved in voter fraud. How does voter fraud occur in a caucus, guys? More Kerry people showed up in Iowa. Period.

And the Deanies were driving people crazy, not drumming up support. They went to other states but stayed in Dean bubbles instead of mobilizing locals. Dean's campaign was already imploding by New Hampshire.

Clark's campaign was nowhere - he had no experience and hit the ground with NO platform and NO policies and NO comment.

No one came close to Kerry.

Kerry is not only the most qualified candidate we were choosing from, he is probably one of the most qualified candidates ever to run for President.

The candidate was excellent, the campaign, not so much.

I don't like how Kerry has handled this post-campaign stuff. But I can't agree that he is quiet because he was duped or involved in nefarious vote fixing and all that jazz.

He may not be everything we all want but he is an honest and honorable man.

[seito]

76. delphine, I LOVED your post

"Kerry is not only the most qualified candidate we were choosing from, he is probably one of the most qualified candidates ever to run for President."