You want a laugh? Read this hagiography of Bev Harris, Woman of the Year..

[Maddy McCall]

according to TVNewsLies. There is no author cited, but I wouldn't be surprised if the Bev herself wrote this little piece of puff. I really don't know whether to laugh or to feel pity.

Pioneer and Patriot Bev Harris TVNL Woman of the Year

At the bottom of all the tributes paid to democracy is the little man, walking into the little booth, with a little pencil, making a little cross on a little bit of paper. . . . Author: Gilbert Keith Chesterton

If nothing else, Bev Harris represents the great divide that is America. In most of cyberspace, she’s a household word. In much of the real world, she’s largely unknown. In the blue states, Bev Harris is a standard bearer, a pioneer, and a patriot. In the red states, many who know her believe that Bev Harris is a conspiracy nut, a rabble rouser, and an agitator.

/snip
For nearly two years, Bev Harris has been a one-woman whirlwind, trying to draw attention to the pitfalls of the computerized election process that promises to become standard in much of the nation. Her relentless crusade hoisted red flags about missing paper trails and questionable security standards for the machines. Her tireless investigations raised equally significant questions about the integrity of Diebold, ES&S, and Sequoia - the three major manufacturers of the electronic machines.

Because of her important work, Bev Harris’ web site, Blackbox.org, has become the quintessential election watchdog on the Internet. Much in the same way, her book, Black Box Voting, has kept the problems of electronic voting in the public conscience and has laid the groundwork for the kind of surveillance and oversight that will determine the accuracy of future elections. How fortunate for us all that Bev Harris chose to champion our rights as Americans, and that Bev Harris refused to back down against torrents of criticism and harassment along the way.

Bev Harris’ work is not over simply because the election is over. She continues to use her PR skills and experience to convince Americans that their votes must be protected from machine defects or political corruption. We thank her for her dedication to a cause so vital to the preservation of our democracy, and for staying the course where others might wearily have abandoned it. And we thank Bev Harris for bringing electronic voting issues to the forefront, and for reminding us that our right to vote is precious and must exist without compromise.

more at: http://bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?id_article=4848

[BlueWolff]

1. The HAG should be called HACK OF THE YEAR

She really screwed it up! Took all that money and did NUTHIN!

[leftyandproud]

29. so did KERRY

collected millions and KEPT 50 MILLION OF OUR MONEY! Why wasn't it spent? Imagine what another 10-20 million could have done in Ohio...

[merh]

35. It was not 50 million and it has been pledged to dems in the upcoming

elections. What could it have done, the media gave the weed carte blanche, he received more free coverage than Kerry ever could buy and THEY STOLE THE VOTES.

No amount of money would have made a difference.

[marc_the_dem]

91. i agree

but we could have offered turd blossom (rove) a hundred million to come work for us...

[merh]

103. Not the money he likes, it is the power

No dem would give him as much power as he has over the admin and the rethugs, not to mention he desire for world power.

[JohnOneillsMemory]

143. Beware aiding the intentional discrediting of the whole BBV issue.

DU is filled with newbies trashing Bev Harris as a way to deflect other newbies who never heard of the MASSIVE FRAUD HIDDEN IN THE REPUBLICAN-DESIGNED AND OWNED BLACK BOX VOTING MACHINES.

Bev Harris has spent years investigating and outting this CRIME AGAINST DEMOCRACY that got so many Republicans into office in the last few years. She isn't the enemy even if she is an unreliable ally.
Her 'PR skills' really are horrible lately.

While she is very human and imperfect to say the least, to deny her contributions to this issue that lives depend on is to risk allying with those INTENTIONALLY WORKING AS TOOLS OF THE DISINFORMATION MACHINE THAT OCCUPIES OUR WHITE HOUSE.

Beware of MESSENGER-CENTRIC THREADS THAT DISTRACT FROM THE VALIDITY OF THE MESSAGE.

[Skittles]

2. can someone give me the gist of what is going on with Bev?

I confess to being out of the loop

[jonnyblitz]

3. I am curious too..

all of a sudden she is public enemy number #1. I guess I missed something...:shrug:

[Maddy McCall]

4. Skittles, the latest is that...

on the Qui Tam lawsuit she filed in California, she is not going to take it to discovery, but is going to keep the award--according to Tom March.

She threatened to sue DU.

She has trumpeted that GWBush is a customer of hers, having had HER book overnighted to him.

She fired Andy Stephenson and scapegoated him for her eratic behavior.

Because of her, Keith Olbermann won't touch BBV anymore. Randi Rhodes is pissed at her, too, and sad that she helped fundraise for her.

And more, so much more, but perhaps Plan9Pub (David Allen) or some of the other people who have directly intereacted with Bev and have kept a closer watch on all of this can give you more detail.

In the words of many people who contributed to BBV, and then realized what a monster Bev is, "We've been had."

[bettyellen]

6. oh i missed the bush thing!!! eeek is she for real? nooooooo.

i had heard that she was saying it wasn't fraud planned by the repugs, but i couldn't find anything to back that up. what would her theory be then? i don't get it.

[Kelvin Mace]

22. Yes, she's for real

*Mysteriously* the weird post vanished from her site, along with other embarrassing posts. Fortunately, it was preserved for posterity.

http://thoughtcrimes.org/bushbought.htm

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Stevepol]

30. The Bush thing is overblown as is most of the other stuff about her.

She made the remark about Bush having purchased her book to indicate how people were buying it, i.e., to push the book, a comment any author worth his/her salt would tbe likely to make once she became aware of the fact. She's offended and probably wrongly accused a group of former supporters, beginning with David Allen, her publisher and co-hort at the beginning, and most recently Andy Stephenson. She's clearly a little paranoid, but a lot of this stuff is coming from people determined to take her down, probably inspired by or paid for by Diebold, etc. which have suffered from her investigations and law suits. Some of the posters here on DU are among this crowd I suspect. They've been trying since she first downloaded the Diebold files off the internet to close down her web site and besmirch her so people won't pay attention to what she's saying. She's done more in a week to restore American democracy than most of these critics of hers will ever do in a lifetime. If her investigations are untrue or based on a bad agenda, then she needs to be reined in. But as long as she is committed to regaining democracy in America and doing what she did in CA, I say more power to her.

[Kelvin Mace]

41. First,,

it is highly unlikely Bush bought the book. There are three possible explanations for this story:

1) Bev lied.
2) Bev imagined it.
3) Someone pretending to be Bush ordered it.

Addressing possibility 3, Bev lack of skepticism makes it as likely as all the rest. I know *I* wouldn't believe it for a minute without *compelling* evidence.

She's clearly a little paranoid, but a lot of this stuff is coming from people determined to take her down, probably inspired by or paid for by Diebold, etc.

Could you point out who you suspect of being a shill for Diebold? This claim is tiresome and reminds me of the accusation that anyone who opposes the war in Iraq is working for Al Qaida.

They've been trying since she first downloaded the Diebold files off the internet to close down her web site

Bev web site was shut down once, by her ISP at the behest of Diebold. Her other claims of "enemy attacks" are highly suspect.

But as long as she is committed to regaining democracy in America and doing what she did in CA, I say more power to her.

What did she do in California besides earn $75K for herself? Despite her claims, she filed no appeals and Diebold has settled with the state. The settlement is "with prejudice" meaning it can NEVER be brought up again in court. Diebold is still in California and other than a minor inconvenience, will continue to sell its machines. All the evidence Bev "dug up" (meaning DUers dug up for her) is now useless.

Sorry, the woman is a menace to what we are doing. While Andy Stephenson is in Ohio helping count ballots, Bev is purging embarrassing posts from her web site.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[kk897]

99. Hi Mr. Allen: maybe you ought to post a Bev FAQ on a secluded page

on your website so that you don't have to continually rehash this stuff for those just coming on to the scene and can just post the link. Or maybe you can attach a bunch of text to a function key, so you can just hit, say, F9 and poof! there it is. It would save you a lot of work, I must say, and there are a lot of curious folk out there who don't know the whole story.

[Kelvin Mace]

126. Good idea, but

I have made a point of NOT slamming Bev on my site so as not to detract from its purpose. If only Bev would be so kind.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Carl Brennan]

61. Welcome to DU. Well said

:toast:

[bettyellen]

131. she was bragging about bush and conservative connections.....

with people from free republic. the same group who have been fighting not to do any recounts. the same people who scoff at fraud allegations. if bush bought the book, it's only to find out what the other side might be saying for corns sake! he ain't out there supporting election investigations all of a sudden. wise up bev!!
sounds to me steve like she's been a little seduced by the powers that be. and since she wiped that page off her site, so she may actually be pretty embarrassed about it. what a wild card, huh?!?
but why was the cali lawsuit settled? aren't we shooting ourselves in the foot here, taking blood money?
honestly, i've been looking hard at what's getting accomplished over there, and i am among many who are sorry they contributed to BBV. i didn't expect a messiah, but i didn't expect verbal humiliations a la the jerry springer show and bragging about selling to the man who might not have been actually elected. that's some pretty weird stuff, at the very least!

[Skittles]

7. but I never knew the early gist, let alone the latest

how did it all get started? I find it insidious that THE name in voting fraud is being trashed - are we SURE it's all legit, it's not hearesay, no SET UP involved? I'm asking because I really don't know.

[Maddy McCall]

9. I think everyone has been clear to say that they...

continue to support the cause of exposing election fraud, but that Bev is not the person to lead the charge. She has alienated far more people than she has attracted to the movement, and many of those whom she has alienated are people who would have been pivotal to exposing the fraud.

She's produced NOTHING that she has promised.

Everything I posted in the thread above is legit...most of it is straight from the horses' mouths. The Bush thing--she posted that on her own messageboard--and she admonished her supporters for talking ill of freepers, whom, according to her, have helped her all along with her efforts.

If I were to postulate the most outrageous conspiracy theory, I would say that if there is a set-up, it's that Bev mysteriously entered and proclaimed herself the BBV messiah, and then derailed most every effort that should have easily been fruitful.

[bettyellen]

15. wow maddy, thanks for the additional info...

i am not as regular around here as a lot of people, and i'm grateful you cleared up a few things. i tell you, if there are all these personality skirmishes and control freaky things going on it could explain wanting to bask in the *'s adulation because control freaks are generally not up for the dissent that liberal skeptics are likely to dish out. what a shame. the * bought the book? with his own name? is this the frist time that piece of shit has used his credit card in four years? LOL! oh lord, is poor bev being scammed by the repukes? that's f'ing sad.

[Kelvin Mace]

23. I seriously doubt

Bush bought the book.

Bev brought this grief on herself, though she continues to blame EVERYONE else for her own temper tantrums and vindictive actions against her allies.

There is plenty of evidence in bev's own words to backup these views. She is now damaging the movement by her actions.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Chimpanzee]

28. Why would he - he admits he doesn't read!

[bettyellen]

10. read my post below for an insider view...

i did see some of the threatening posts ( for using the term cle*n up crew, which she has trademarked or something) and reread them and it sounded to me like she was threatening litigation, she does mention contacting lawyers if they didn't desist. bev says she never threatened to sue. while she didn't use the word sue, i have to say her version of events were more than a glossing over. from the few posts i saw, she is an angry woman who swears the countdown people are lying, she claims to be very cooperative, but it seems like she's one the wrong side of a lot of he said she said skirmishes, and at the very least, she has become her own PR nightmare.

[Kelvin Mace]

24. Bev's list of people who have wronged her

Keith Oberlmann
Andy Stephenson
Roxanne Jekot
Eloriel
Althecat
BartCop
Randi Rhodes (pending)
DU
Democrats.com
Rebecca Mercuri
Lynn Landis
David Dill
Avi Rubin
Wired News
AP
Seattle Weekly

and your truly.

I know this list is not complete. Others can add as they see fit.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[robbedvoter]

27. You forgot the entire bartcop forum (besides bartcop)

DNC and the Democrats - who benefitted just as much from fraud according to her
Various unnamed hackers. killers who made her fear for her life, cancel appearances etc, etc

The most significant in all this is the catering to the BFEE and accusing of Democrats:


Update: SUNDAY, DEC. 5, 2004: Black Box Voting is honing in on seven investigations right now. To the surprise of some, five of the counties we are investigating are Democratic. A national investigation we are doing trends Republican. Our members just want clean elections. We want answers, not theories, statistics, or potentialities, and therefore we are concentrating on areas which have anomalies, and where we believe we can get the facts.
http://www.blackboxvoting.org/

[ohio_liberal]

51. Why Avi Rubin?

What is he supposed to have done?

[TrustingDog]

71. Avi - Johns Hopkins research on bbv.

This was the first 'big' release on bbv. July of 2002 (?) that was conducted by Johns Hopkins and made bbv finally 'legit' in the media in a scathing report of the fallabilities of e-voting machines. Yes, even CNN spent a few seconds on it.

Avi was part of the team, but it was discovered later (and please correct me if I am wrong in any of these details) that Avi had some 'interest' (to what extent, I don't know) in a voting machine company, a conflict of interest issue, so of course this put quite a different slant on the legitimacy and honesty of the JH report and any conversation about it drew out the 'Avi' thing to distract from the real issue.

So yes, I agree that Avi needed some straightening out. whether he just 'forgot' or whatever the reason - it was a major blow for the project.

[ohio_liberal]

74. OK, I remember reading about all that

He held stock and a seat on the technical advisory board for VoteHere but said he hadn't had any contact with them since he signed on and forgot all about the connection.

[Kelvin Mace]

98. Bev accused him of being involved in Qui Tam

along with a number of other activists.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[saracat]

90. You forgot the Kerry Campaign and its lawyers, who are blocking her.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Maddy McCall]

14. You are wrong. Skittles is one of the most fair people I've had...

the pleasure of knowing on DU. I would never consider any conversation with Skittles a waste of time.

[T Town Jake]

17. To each their own...

...but I've had distinctly different reactions to such encounters as I've been privy to in various threads. But you go right ahead.

Peace.

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Maddy McCall]

19. Skittles, when you have some time to read...

Go to this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=108750#111218

[bettyellen]

5. there's a thread called the bbv mess in general discussion that explains..

but basicallly she was banned by du a couple of weeks ago for slamming du and then using it as if nothing happened and also for threatening legal action against du ers.
she has had some real pr problems also. she says she has incriminating video, but won't share it with the media. the speculation is she wants to put it out on dvd for $$. also , countdown on msnbc tried to get her to appear on their show, she claims they haven't. but olberman claims they tried and she was very difficult and abusive even to his staff. a lot of people say she is a grandstander and some say she tells talles. everybody agrees, she should not be doing p.r though, and that she's hot headed. a lot of people have started to ask what sh'e been doing with the money she received.
here's a thread: the bbv mess


kamqute (72 posts)
Fri Dec-17-04 09:52 PM
Original message

Re: The BBV Mess


This was posted by Catherine Scolvin aka Straw_Citizen with my support and input on the Randi Rhodes Show section of the Air America Place forum yesterday afternoon. I hope it can clear up some of the confusion:

QUOTE (bigtree @ Dec 15 2004, 10:34 PM)
I was listening to Malloy last night and a couple of calls came in from Bev's staff (Katherine and Danielle?)- anyway - they were apologizing for Bev's actions and were adamant that the money was being spent on FOI requests....

Then the bbv.org site has the unceremonial firing of Andy - just after his sister died too!

I don't know what to believe anymore...

I missed the first hour or so of Randi today - did she talk about it at all?


The short version first.

* I hope this lends a clearer picture and perspective.
* I hope Bev gets help and moves on.
* I hope Andy continues working on vote fraud issues without interference from the debris of unwarranted and malicious accusations.
* I applaud Air America for being responsible, maintaining open dialogue and allowing two-way communication.
* There is more of the same of what is posted below, but this is too long already.

This is Catherine. Daniel and I are neither staff nor privy to facts, but wanted BBV supporters to know that despite problems we believe BBV's investigations were real and donations were at least partially spent on FOIA requests.

We both worked with other BBV volunteers on a county election official contact list used to send FOIA requests. We believe those requests were sent because 1) BBV claimed to receive responses to them, and 2) if FOIA requests were not sent to and received by election officials that would be newsworthy and easy to confirm.

I don't recall saying anything that could be construed as direct support other than it has been a pleasure working with Andy and I look forward to working with him in the future wherever he chooses, since he is now unencumbered.

I reiterate my belief that money has been spent on FOIA requests. If asked though, I would also have stated my own concern about the absence of a monetary goal, as I did in an email to the President of the BBV Board of Directors. The response was that BBV should not signal to the opposition where BBV was at with a goal. At least I received a response.

Additionally, the valuable work constructed by collaborators in the writing of Black Box Voting: Ballot-Tampering in the 21st Century, should not be diminished because of one person on a bizarre self-destruct path bent on bringing others down with her. It doesn't speak well of Bev Harris in face of the credits originally stated in this book, that since then I have witnessed chronic public attacks by Bev directed toward David Allen and other collaborators. However, above the fray David Allen of Plan Nine Publishing has kept the book in its original state (Bev has edited it for download from her site) and deserves kudos for maintaining an even keel while weathering the storm many of us have come to know as Bev Harris.

Something else that begs clarity is that though Andy may have believed he would not be working for BBV, he was not formally or officially notified that he was fired until Bev did so publicly. Again, I do not have all the facts, but have sufficient email communications from a member of the Board of Directors for BBV to soundly draw that conclusion.

After piecing facts from my own experience together with what I have seen Bev write online recently, it is my firm belief that Bev conflated past and recent outside attacks toward her with internal management conflicts, then vented combined stressors and frustrations by publicly placing all weight on one person simply because it could be done. Some people are better equipped than others to cope with being in a hot seat. It has become obvious to many that Bev cannot take the heat without lashing out at those within reach. There is also the fact that responsibility stays at the top no matter who is used as a scapegoat.

Transparent management would clear up questions about embezzlement and expenditures. That is up to the BBV Board of Directors, unless Bev is trying to run that too. It is well known among many that delegation by Bev is a weak point for BBV. From personal experience, Bev exemplifies the analogy of the monkey with its hand in the jar refusing to relinquish grasp of one thing in order to obtain another.

As a former BBV volunteer I understand the frustration and even anger of other volunteers and members whose efforts to help and donate were heavily solicited, then ignored. For a few days I was designated by Bev as Volunteer Coordinator only to find myself cut off at the pass with all efforts to do what I was asked to. That began with the county contact list, since Bev mistakenly thought every state could be done quickly. I heard Bev clearly as I waited on the phone for confirmation that it was ok to use other sources or not. It was not ok with Bev, but since Bev's single source was inadequate we did the best we could with other sources anyway. (Btw, anyone who needs a county / town election official list for emailing, calling or faxing, may download this Election Investigation Library which will remain a work in progress)

Organization became noticeably worse just prior to the General Election as membership tripled within a week. Complaints of ‘no response’ to email and numerous pleas to help littered BBV forums. After a few days of Bev saying she would respond (on the site, though it's gone now) and not seeing it happen, I created a few admin accounts for a few trusted members who could help cover responses so I could sort skills sets. This was necessary because moderator features did not work. I also emailed Bev every step of the way so she could remain informed, and at her own pace.

Note: I hoard email and have saved each sent to Bev, as well as collected screenshots of problems on the site to support those emails. In fact, after Keith Olbermann was made out to be the bad guy by Bev, I emailed him examples of problems noted by various members on the BBV site to support his assessment. Though it felt appropriate to keep my thoughts from public view even then, I still thought the matter was important enough to corroborate problems I witnessed myself.

Then Democratic Underground members began forming a more functional clean up crew than existed at BBV. Password issues at BBV prevented many from logging in and this continued despite emails to Bev and posts throughout the site. As the DU clean up crew picked up momentum, coincidentally it became clear that BBV urgently needed more Florida attorneys. As I searched online for a news article regarding BBV in Florida, Andy briefly passed that fact on to me. I perceived it as a directive from Bev rather than a note-to-self for Andy because I had become accustomed to acting on ideas and suggestions. (Otherwise, not even the county contact list would have been completed using Bev's chosen source.)

Because BBV email wasn't being responded to; because Bev tried to be the sole email response person; and because I knew she was unavailable and they didn't have reliable internet access while out-of-town; I led a couple other volunteers in discussing and creating an email address for responses to an urgent request for FL attorneys to be sent to, then one of us posted the request on DU. Bev eventually saw this and publicly posted on DU that it was not authorized, though I had emailed her about it to be on the same page. Bev made a fool of us, then demanded via email and a post on DU that we call her immediately. I did so and was sorry I bothered.

After posting research for BBV off and on for two years and working 18-20 hours a day at election time, I was finally allowed the opportunity 3 times that night during phone calls to be yelled at non-stop for matters unrelated to any BBV volunteer (that I'm aware of) except for a minute dwelling on the newly created unauthorized email address. (the reason why was apparently unimportant) Specifically, Bev repeatedly referred to DU as stealing BBV members and that was 'just not going to happen'. During that conversation, my pointing out that at least hundreds (based on the explosion of membership) of people were not being responded to and they were rightfully displeased about being misled by her claims to be leading, was somehow stretched by Bev to be the work of 'infiltrators' (she termed 'the usual suspects') at BBV and DU.

I then directed Bev to a BBV forum where members were posting complaints of "no response" to emails and password issues about the same time Bev noticed (finally) that I had created a few admin accounts to help with the increasing membership volume. Bev immediately removed admin status from our accounts which left BBV with no organizing ability through volunteers. (there have been plenty of volunteers with a wide range of skills including local office help) I should mention here that security on the site is so lax that two days later I was able to login and reset my own password (an admin-only function) on my old user name because cookies retained my admin status after Bev removed it. I notified Bev of this immediately via email.

I was also taken aback throughout those 3 phone calls, which averaged 15-20 minutes each, by Bev's focus on blaming others for every single thing that didn't go as she thought it should. I recall feeling less like a real person listening to Bev on the phone, than a garbage dump with an ear.

Why didn't I speak up sooner? Partially self-denial to be honest, and because of the initial statements in this post. I had also been volunteering in 'self-propelled' mode from day one. I was unsure how to proceed. I could not speak for BBV. Neither could I assume my own experience was exactly the same as others, despite appearances. I trusted Bev to be a real leader because she put herself in that role. I wanted to continue to help as best I could in every aspect because vote fraud is such a vitally important issue. I respect the work that culminated in DUer's, others', David's and Bev's book. There may not be a good reason buried in all of that, but combined they caused me to feel paralyzed by the fact that if I was wrong about what I perceived that I would have started something rolling in the worst possible way.

Finally, I offer my most sincere apology to all BBV members who thought I could help organize. My error in judgment affected many in an untimely manner. I realize now, that is an understatement for some who would have redirected their efforts elsewhere as I did. However, I would have remained silent if I had not seen with my own eyes, the malicious behavior Bev Harris exhibited toward a peer well known to support BBV 100%. As a result of Bev's behavior toward me directly, I began cross volunteering and have learned a valuable lesson about supporting a person versus a cause, especially when that cause is supported by other very diligent groups. I hope BBV supporters will each be able to separate a work from the person, and continue efforts to expose vote fraud.

--
Just to throw my own two cents in, I think it's fairly clear that Bev Harris is a John Wayne type, so obsessed with her own cause (which in her mind is conflated with herself) that she is willing to abuse anyone she sees as standing in the way..that includes anyone who exists around her in times of stress because they threaten her individuality, and even if they don't, abuse can sharpen one's disconnection from other people, and thus their identity. I know this is all pretty obvious but I think it's essential to put that at the forefront at this time..just remember that all of the INFORMATION on BBV you can still go on, and that the work Bev is doing continues to be extremely important.
 

[T Town Jake]

8. That's some hilarious....

....shit, alright - and full of bogus adulation for one whom has earned nothing but scorn from decent, discerning people, stem-to-stern. But I hope you have your asbestos suit on; the flames from the Bev-bot's will be a' coming, forthwith. They're like Orwell's famed animals, and they all chant one silly, reductive chorus (if I may paraphrase a part of his renowned work): Bev good!; Bev better!


On edit: added an adjective.

[Maddy McCall]

11. The Bev Borgs have no effect on me.

If I had chosen psychology instead of history as my profession, I would say that most of them realize the truth, and their overt defense of Bev is their last-ditch effort to save their psyches from the realization that they've been had.

[roenyc]

16. um, why was

Andy fired?? i remember he gave a mighty good interview on all the radio shows back when the fund raising drives were on.

i knew about all the other things but i didn't know about Andy. thought they were a team.

[Maddy McCall]

18. Basically, she blamed him for all the things she has been accused...

of doing:

Emotional outbursts, etc. It was a classic case of scapegoating to save her own hide.

[Kelvin Mace]

25. Why Andy was fired

according to Bev. If we look up the word "projection" in a psych dictionary. we find:

"A defense mechanism in which the individual attributes to other people impulses and traits that he himself has but cannot accept. It is especially likely to occur when the person lacks insight into his own impulses and traits."

http://thoughtcrimes.org/blame_andy.htm

I believe this post has also disappeared from Bev's site.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[bettyellen]

127. OUCH!! That's a PR nightmare and Bev gets all the credit for that!

[dweller]

34. congratulations on your wise choice of professions

otherwise you might have had to undertake a deep and possibly shattering analysis of the depth to which the human psyche can descend, as most evident by the vociferousness of the anti-bbv crowd here.

you'll be happier rewriting history to support your world-view.

dp

[Kelvin Mace]

39. Really?

you'll be happier rewriting history to support your world-view.

The only person re-writing history is Bev.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Boredtodeath]

47. Not just Bev

The BevBorg is desperately trying to help her re-write history.

The only problem with that is Bev immortalized the real history in stone right here on DU.

[aquart]

141. Bev Borgs.

That's like...wait, let me think...I've got it! It's like something Ann Coulter would say. Insults being easier than facts. Or fact checking.

I'm open to facts. Toss some my way.

[bettyellen]

12. wow, am i in for my first flaming? i wasn't even trying.

just repeating some stuff for skittles, since i think she was busy with her family for a while there.
uh oh. :scared:
(not really)

[mattclearing]

20. Still going...

eom

[Bill of Rights]

21. Her book about Black Box Voting is important work

n.t.

[Kelvin Mace]

26. It is,

but be aware that two versions now exist.

The original at my site and the newer version on Bev's site that is undergoing "editing" in which history is being rewritten to emphasize her glory while downplaying or deleting other people's contributions.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org
www.blackboxvoting.com

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sepia_steel]

33. Don't we have better things to worry about than Bev Bev Bev???

I"m not crazy about the lady, either, but the more Bev threads I see the more I want to puke. Are we ever gonna move past this or what?

[BeFree]

36. Better things to do?

For some of us, yes.

For others, the cutting down of an Icon is the most important. Ya see, it's like taking down the flag on a battle field.

Then there are those who's most important thing is playing 'King of the Hill', Bev, is/was the person on top of the heap, therefore, in the game, she must be displaced.

Then there are those who have designs on completely discrediting any questions about BBVoting machines. They know that if we ever get to the bottom of the sordid mess, BBV will be just a footnote in the history books, instead of the savior of fascism they so desire.

Yes, there are many more more important tasks at hand for most of us, but for some, their own agendas are displayed here for all to see.

Sorry if I left anyone out from the above depictions of Bev bashers. Please, post here letting us know of your angle.

Note: Bev Harris, has, imo, made many a mistake.
But I see no reason to be burning her at the stake.

[Kelvin Mace]

38. As long as Bev keeps attacking

her allies and discrediting the movement, she is a relevant topic. If she cared about the movement at all, she would publicly apologize and step aside. But no, she insists on doing greater amounts of damage to the issue.

Hard to search for prowlers when our spoiled brat is setting fires in the basement.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Boredtodeath]

45. Does Bev have better things to do?

Seriously, do you ask the same of Bev Harris?

You have one standard for DU activists and another for her? Where were you for the last 2 years while Bev Harris belittled and lied about activists who were fighting the same battle?

The hypocrisy is astounding.

[salin]

66. Perhaps if she hadn't tried to burn so many "at the stake"

she wouldn't be subject to such treatment. From what I have watched over the past year and a half - she has cost several DUers a HUGE amount of money, impeded at least one in earning a living for a period of time (by tying up resources and time before turning around and directly threatening even more financial damage), and has - due to her increasingly growing soapbox - discredited some very credible researchers and actors on the issue.

WHile I knew the background to be skeptical (per past distasteful enterpreneurial endeavor) - I was supportive of the effort, even participating in some of the initial research ... dig for info threads. Then there was the blow up and ugly discrediting of the work of David Dill... and relatively minor speaking of what was to come (sorry bev supporters... internet anonymous person with no background, vs stanford researcher with technical background expertise... credibility always fell towards the latter) in terms of virulent accusations and sometimes actions that cost folks serious $$$ (more than just some donations here and there).

For all the effort you make of attacking DUers who now speak out against bev - esp those of us, out of respect for the movement who stayed silent for months and months while having serious concerns that her behavior would harm the overall movement - you seem to seriously minimize the damage she caused to some individuals not to mention the damage done to the cause. If you stop minimizing - then others, like myself, will stop speaking up to point out the seriousness of the situation which belies that there is just a knee jerk anti-bev jealousy thing going on because she is "at the top of the heap."

[bobbieinok]

134. there are those of us who first got interested in the whole BBV thing in

a more than superficial way from her posts at DU ca a year or more ago, learned a lot from her posts and the answers.....and are now trying to figure out what happened and how we (progressives???) can learn from this and be cautiously careful with even the greatest looking 'stuff'

[Junkdrawer]

37. Aside from relentlessly attacking Bev, what is your activism in the..

evoting issue? :shrug:

[Boredtodeath]

43. Oh, not much......

David is on the commission in NC studying electronic voting machines and the legislation governing them.

He's not standing before the cameras grandstanding, he's down in the trenches fighting against these machines.

Now, since we know what the hell he's doing, how about YOU give a blow by blow of your activities?

[Junkdrawer]

48. Are you and Maddy McCall the same person?

:shrug:

[Boredtodeath]

54. Nope, Bev Harris has more than one enemy

So, where's that list of your activities on evoting?

Trying to avoid the subject?

[Junkdrawer]

57. Wait...wait...

First of all, Maddy's relentless attacks naturally invite such a question.

Second, my involvement here can be traced using the "Search" function.

Third, I'm still curious. By "David" are you referring to David Allen aka plan9_pub or is Maddy's name David.

Fourth, do you guys post as a team?

[Boredtodeath]

60. I don't know Maddy or David, personally

Never met them, never spoke to them, never even had a PM or email from either of them.

Now, let's go back to the original question. What the hell are you doing about electronic voting fraud? Besides defending Bev Harris on an internet message board?

You brought it up. You asked for David's credentials, pony up yours.

[Junkdrawer]

64. I asked for Maddy's credentials, not David's...

Unless Maddy = David.

Maddy started the thread. Did you ever hear of the expression "Who are you to throw the first stone?" Well, Maddy's thrown innumerable stones.

Oh, and I've done much more here than "Defend Bev". Indeed, I don't ever get involved "defending Bev" until the attacks go way over the top. And let me tell you, these attacks are so far over the top that they border on pathological. Kinda like stabbing the body 50 times.

[salin]

69. Maddy, I believe, has been at DU a heck of a lot longer

than Bev. She has been involved in many important discussions and carries on the "good fight" to promote democratic values, candidates, and discourse, in a part of the country that is not always receptive. While we do not always see eye to eye (we sometimes were on opposite sides of arguments during the primaries) I have long had a great respect for her.

[Kelvin Mace]

96. Well, a question

Kinda like stabbing the body 50 times.

As this is the kind of treatment I (and MANY others) have received at Bev's hand, have you inquired into her "pathological" behaviour?

I consider it self-defense myself.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Junkdrawer]

114. Really? And if I counted "Bev bashes David" and "David bashes Bev"...

posts, who would win?

My money's on David.

Actually, of course, in the bigger scheme of things, Bush wins.

[Kelvin Mace]

117. To quote a famous Dem

"If she stops lying about me, I'll stop telling the truth about her."

You seem to feel it is perfectly OK for Bev to libel and slander ANYONE she please, and we should just shut up and take it.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Junkdrawer]

119. Not at all. My point is this:

If you were totally right and comfortable with being right you wouldn't ceaselessly attack. In my experience, that's symptomatic of someone trying to rationalize how right they are.

You guys just can't stop. You know eventually, you hurt your case with overkill.

[Kelvin Mace]

129. No one gets on

posts random attacks. Every posting starts as a result of Bev's latest outrage. We respond, and her defenders come out claiming we are Rove cronies because we criticize her.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Carl Brennan]

58. I'd like you to point me at some topics where you

say something critical of the Bushies.

Thank You

[Boredtodeath]

63. Here you go

George Bush is a fucking asshole who should never have been re(S)elected with rigged voting machines.

And, if people hadn't put their faith and money in Bev Harris he might not have been.

If DUers had got behind organizations like VotersUnite or VerifiedVoting or Votewatch, instead of Bev Harris, we might have made a difference in November.

But, media hound Bev Harris stole all the thunder with her lies; her exaggerations; her publicity stunts.

And we're stuck with Bush, standing here watching our country, our democracy go out the window while our kids die in that hellhole called Iraq.

[Carl Brennan]

65. No, No, No person. I am asking for past posts

Anything at all. You are looking alot like a con artist to me right now.

[Boredtodeath]

68. ROFL, I'm trying to con you out of what?

Your kool-aid?

Search is your friend Mr. Brennan.......

[Carl Brennan]

70. Why are you so defensive. Shit all I asked you for was

something you said in the past that was critical of Bush. Is that to much to ask? You know just one time where you really saw red and said something critical, hee.

[Boredtodeath]

72. Not defensive at all

And, no, Sir, you did not ask an innocent question.....you tried to avoid the rules of not calling posters who believe Bev Harris to be a con artist freepers.

Well, sir, I'm no plant, not a freeper, nor a conservative. I'm a bonafide liberal who has watched Bev Harris disgrace the word activist for 2 years. A liberal who has seen this woman demean and publicly libel good, hardworking human beings because they might get in the way of her rush to the almighty dollar.

I find Bev Harris' behavior disgusting. And I find it telling that YOU don't. It says a great deal about YOU.

[Carl Brennan]

76. I didn't call you anything. There is a big difference

between saying what I think and labeling you.


Bev Harris has problems communicating with people from what I've seen. I'll not deny that. I disagree with her calling people out in public too. But then we don't really know what happened between her and the others. We also cannot deny her contribution to the effort of exposing the problems of the voting system.

Nobody confronted her on a personal level with their gripes I am almost certain. But then that is the way most people deal, or don't deal, with interpersonal issues. They just let shit fester and stew until it explodes.

An organizational psychologist could have helped out I guess.

I'm going to drop this thing here. Nothing good can come from it.

[Boredtodeath]

77. You are making assumptions

Assumptions, I know to be in error.

Do I personally know one of Bev Harris' early victims? Yes, I do. I know this person to be trustworthy and honest and I know they tried to address Bev's problems on a personal, one-on-one basis repeatedly. Those attempts resulted in the kind of personal abuse many others have attested to publicly; including the staff of Keith Olbermann.

I know this person keeps their mouth shut to this day "for the good of the cause" but I won't.

[Carl Brennan]

79. Forget it. You don't understand what I am talking about.

Now I have to take your interpretation at face value. I can't do that

Not one but ALL people who had difficulty with her on a personal level should have confronted her. It is called communicating.

I used to be a counselor and I have found that in almost all cases like this it was a problem of communication by BOTH parties.

This problem needed an org psychologist and it is over now. Nothing will be accomplished going any further.

[Boredtodeath]

81. I DO understand what you are talking about

and I'm telling you that it was tried - repeatedly. By many.

The only person who refused to benefit from the attempts was Bev Harris.

Even the peacemakers who tried to intervene were eventually accused of subversion by Bev Harris.

Been there, done that. And you are speaking about things you know nothing of.

[Kelvin Mace]

106. The easiest way to provoke a shrieking fit from Bev

is to suggest that she "make peace" with any of the people who have "betrayed" her. Your name then goes on her list as a new enemy,

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Carl Brennan]

111. OK, one last question for you and bored.

You complain of Bev posting negative stuff about the people she worked with on her website, but not David Allen's doing the same thing to her? :shrug:




The question: Did Bev Harris do any good in all of this?

[Kelvin Mace]

116. You just don't seem to want to see the difference, do you.

We complain about Swift Boat Vets smearing Kerry. They complain about us discussing Bush's failure to show up for duty. One is a lie, the other is the truth.

Do you get it now?

I have answered the question over and over again about what she did right. I will no longer answer this question.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Carl Brennan]

122. Take your , condescending attitude and shove it!

Point me at place where you acknowledged her doing something good. I haven't seen this.

[Kelvin Mace]

133. You are the one who wants the proof

and are too lazy to look it up for your self. So, here you go

Bev Harris is a very talented, very hard-working and tenacious woman. No matter what happens or what she says or claims about me, we owe her a debt that will be hard to repay, if ever, for the work she has done.

Do I deserve huge accolades? Am I trying to steal credit? Nope, certainly not. The lion's share of the work was yours...

Note: This was BEFORE I learned how much Bev cribbed from other folks.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1333930#1336750

There are plenty more, that's all I have time to find. I am tired of having to prove things to Bev's defenders.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Carl Brennan]

124. Boredtodeath I'd like you to reply too.

Thanks.

[Kelvin Mace]

102. Really?

Nobody confronted her on a personal level with their gripes I am almost certain.

Bev has made ALL of her attacks at a distance and quite publicly. I am out enough money now, and you want me to be out more money so I can waste my time flying across country.

Give me a break.

I'd love to confront Bev personally, I'll bet she wouldn't have much to say to me in person. I look forward to her making good on her threats to sue me, as she will have to do so in North Carolina. Cowardly attacks are her specialty. She attacks with lies, we defend with the truth (i.e. her own words).

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org


David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Kelvin Mace]

100. You have a star, there is a search function

when traffic drops and archives are back on line, tap a few keys.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Carl Brennan]

40. This topic is way off as are the people bashing Bev Harris.

Looks like many DUers are looking for a Messiah and anyone who falls short of the mark is cast into the infernal regions. :eyes:

Never forget what Bev Harris has done to expose problems with voting. I never will.

[Kelvin Mace]

42. Never forget that she took credit for other people work

and sold us down the river for the sake of her ego.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Boredtodeath]

46. It was a hell of a lot more than ego

She took credit for other people's work for the silver coins of Qui Tam. And then proudly trumpted doing so.

[Carl Brennan]

49. Give me some sources on that please

[Boredtodeath]

52. Read the California court documents

The only information about Diebold fraud came from James Dunn, temp employee of Diebold in California.

Bev Harris and Jim March had no first hand knowledge (hello, the basis of Qui Tam) of fraud comitted by Diebold. They took Rob Behler's and James Dunn's information and profited from it.

[Carl Brennan]

56. We ALL profited from the knowledge about Diebold fraud. ALL of

us. Maybe they were trying to keep the sources confidential to keep them viable, or to protect them or whatever.


Bev Harris just doesn't fit with the knowledge I have of con artists. And why is it assumed that her firing of Andy was not justified? What is with that?

[Boredtodeath]

59. Why don't you try some facts with that kool-aid?

James Dunn NOR Rob Behler were confidential.

Hell, Bev Harris and Jim March pasted their names all over the internet and court documents.

So, how is it you profited? Did the last election have a better outcome because Bev Harris stopped the fraud?

Oh, wait, she didn't stop the fraud did she?

Nope, she just put $75K in the bank and the rest of us got 4 more years of George W. Bush + a republican controlled House and Senate.

Yeah, remind me........where's the profit?????

[Carl Brennan]

62. Like I said. Alot of Duers are looking for a Messiah--

a savior who will take them out of the vote fraud wilderness.

Now you are blaming her for not curing the problem of vote fraud. :eyes: :puke:

You are on a mission to destroy her and are now negating anything good she did. Who would like to see Bev disappear?


And you never gave me any topics where you criticize Bush. ;)

[Boredtodeath]

67. Not true - Bev Harris wanted to be the messiah

Because if anyone stepped on her crown, she took them down hard over the last 2 years.

Ask David Dill, Avi Rubin, Cindy Cohn, David Jefferson, Kim Alexander.....the list is endless. The list of professionals and activists who Bev Harris called liars and "plants of the corporations" right here on DU for 2 years.

ANYONE who tried to be effective on this issue was seen as the enemy by Bev Harris and publicly taken to the wood shed.

Bev Harris crowned herself the messiah and dared anyone else to try and share the crown.

[NC Beach Girl]

73. interesting...

Carl,

I don't know you but I'm just going to jump in here...

You have made several posts that imply someone is not good enough to express their displeasure with how the head of a non-profit organization behaves unless they have posted things critical of bush here on DU.

Can you please show me one post by Bev Harris that is critical of Bush? I'm pretty sure you can't.

I think the argument you make based on previous posts is irrelevent, if someone (especially the head of an organization) has done things to multiple people that has caused them emotional and financial upset, they should CERTAINLY be allowed to express that.

It makes no sense at all to suggest differently.

[NC Beach Girl]

75. Firing of Andy justified??

Here is why I assume the firing of Andy was NOT justified:

Andy is in Ohio right now helping to count despite being financially drained, where is Bev and her $300,000 right now? Picking up her $76,000 Qui Tam check, spending her days deleting posts from her message board, making vague posts about eagles, crafting official statements of support for herself....how is this helping improve voting?

I have heard Andy on several radio interviews and he is ALWAYS calm, professional, and has never once made me feel like he is hiding something.

Bev tried to publicly humiliate Andy by posting a list on the front page of her site of reasons that he was fired, most of which were obviously ridiculous considering that Andy's behavior directly contradicted this list. Not only was this a nasty action, it was illegal! It was later quietly deleted like most everything at the BBV site.

Andy was berated for wanting to go spend time with his dying sister and STAYED and worked because he is so dedicated to the cause. Randi Rhodes confirmed this on her show.

Andy gave up his business to run for Secretary of State because he wanted to change the way things were done, he decided to join with Bev when he thought he could make more of a difference there.

I could keep going but actually I'm just going to stop here...this just makes me incredibly angry to see someone who is NOT trying to make a profit from this issue be slammed. Bottom line is Andy is in Ohio, not taking money from the state of CA, not being funded by a hefty bank account.....where is Bev?

[Carl Brennan]

78. See reply #76.

[Kelvin Mace]

108. Reality check

Bev Harris just doesn't fit with the knowledge I have of con artists. And why is it assumed that her firing of Andy was not justified?

Personally, I have never called a con artist and disagree with those who do.

Second, Andy has shown himself in the past to be a pretty stand up guy, his main flaw was believing Bev. He then went into the belly of the beast and found out first hand what the rest of us already knew. If you read what Bev accuses Andy of, it is a litany pf sins that BEV JERSELF is guilty of. It's called project (see above post for definition).

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Kelvin Mace]

104. One of the reason she is re-writing history

is because she is afraid of being disqualified from the qui tam suit. Thus, while she originally admitted that she didn't understand the files she found on the Diebold site and had to ask me about it, she now claims I didn't know that they were (Compare chapter 9 of the PDF on her sitre with chapter 9 of the original pdf on my site).

She also did NOT get the Diebold emails first, I did. Not only that, she threatned me for accepting them. Later, when she thought Wired was going to get the story, she changed her tune and pretended she was the original recipient.

All of this is irrelevant. The suit has been settled "with prejudice" meaning none of this can be brought up again. Bev's greed/stupidity (take your pick) has screwed us BIG time by taking useful evidence off the table.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Carl Brennan]

50. Her ego? What about your ego?

Christ, if I hear another self-proclaimed psychologist spouting about attribution I think I'll :puke:

Of course you could just be a Re-thug doing a little chaos building. I'd have to congratulate you on a job well done in that case.

[americanstranger]

86. 'Chaos Building.'

I've said this before - I posted here at DU for a long time before BevHarris came along.

I was never accused of being a 'Re-Thug' here (despite having big differences with a few people) until I was called a 'Rove operative' by a Bev defender.

I've since been called a number of things - 'freeper,' 'GOP mole,' 'on Rove's payroll.' And who were the people who called me these things? People who were defending Bev Harris, that's who.

So all the moaning about 'attacks' on Bev kinda make me yawn at this point. She and her defenders have done their share of 'chaos building,' too.

-as

[Kelvin Mace]

109. Ah, all critics who diagree with you

should be suspected of being the enemy. No wonder you see little wrong with Bev's conduct.

You just blew your credibility.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Snivi Yllom]

44. Bev who?

lol

[aquart]

53. It's good to have a mission in life.

Even if it's spite.

[Boredtodeath]

55. But it's better if

the mission is to stop a con artist from ripping off anymore unsuspecting victims.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

80. LOL

I try to avoid these threads, but that reminded me of this quote by Anne Lamott:

Harboring hate in your heart is like ingesting rat poison and waiting for the rat to die.

Or something like that.

Regardless of who did what to whom, I am disgusted by the hatred and spite in these Bev threads. Or any thread. I reserve that kind of hatred for *, Rumsfeld, and all those who sent our soldiers to kill and to die for nothing. This is where our anger and our efforts should be focused.

[Boredtodeath]

82. Where were you?

When Bev Harris was spewing her hate all over DU?

Oh, you missed all that I guess.........

Yeah, right.....

[RevolutionStartsNow]

118. I am not condoning anything Bev has said or done, but are you any better?

I'm not saying Bev didn't create her own problems, I'm only expressing dismay over the level of hatred and petty spite I'm seeing on this site. It's sick and ugly, on both sides. I can't understand people being that mean-spirited, that's all.

[Junkdrawer]

83. As I said above:

I don't ever get involved "defending Bev" until the attacks go way over the top. And let me tell you, these attacks are so far over the top that they border on pathological. Kinda like stabbing the body 50 times.

[Boredtodeath]

84. You mean when the truth is told

So, Junkdrawer, tell us what Bev Harris has done for Rob Behler and his 7 kids this Christmas with even a pittance of that $60K a year she's being paid by BBV.org...........not to mention the $300K of donated funds, or the $75K from the California Qui Tam......

Tell us some truth about Bev Harris.

Please.

[Junkdrawer]

85. Who is Rob Behler?

:shrug:

I honestly don't know.

[Boredtodeath]

87. The whistleblower who made Bev Harris famous

of "rob-georgia" fame.

The man who risked his job, his livihood and his reputation to come forward about uncertified patches on Georgia voting machines. Bev's first big publicity break.

The man who was fired for coming forward despite the fact that he has 7 children to support.

The man who has had to disappear because of the threats he's experienced.

The man who had to rip up his family's foundations because he exhibited courage.

Bev's first victim.

[Junkdrawer]

88. OK. I Googled this...

http://www.countthevote.org/behler_interview.htm

So, you're saying that since Rob endangered his career to come forward, Bev should support him? Or is there something more I don't know?

[Kelvin Mace]

110. Ah, the BevBorg have arrive

logic is futile.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[aquart]

140. I have never said one word against you, David.

Or even thought that you were wrong.

So I'm kinda surprised to see myself called a mindless borg.

Is your argument really so weak that the only defense is insults? Maybe you want to try a different approach. At least with me. Maybe insults work with other people. Wait, isn't that one of the accusation against Bev Harris? But noticing that makes me impervious to reason?

[Kelvin Mace]

144. You are correct.

I am allowing myself to get annoyed and slipping to insults. I apologize.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[FULL_METAL_HAT]

89. Liars and Con-men ... Call bev an angel or a call her a devil BUT

(apologies in advance for the caps!!! :^))

I ain't gonna get into this malarcky except to say that bashiing bev doesn't help really. The greater enemy is so huge.

• What if she is a con-artist?? She's raked in maybe 100s of thousands of dollars...
  What about *? (& Haliburton et al!)
  
  
• What if she is megalomaniac?? She's pissed off a maybe hundreds of people she didn't need to...
  What about *?
  
  
• What if she has BLATENTLY STOLEN work/time from others?? She's made life for some people really sad...
  What about *?
  

It's a natural reaction when so heavily downtrodden to start to look at things CLOSER TO ONESELF as THE PROBLEM, and for that I don't begrudge anyone in this or any other thread BUT I can't believe that bev-bashing(tm) is NOT, in fact, being STRONGLY promoted by those who WE KNOW (beyond a shadow of a reasonable doubt) are MEGALOMANICAL LIARS AND CON-MEN...

It would seem to me that if BBV/BEV is TAINTED then just MOVE ON to the next IMMEDIATE FIGHT ... Will admonishing Bev NOW do anything to make her MORE RELEVANT, would it make her roll up her sleeves and work harder? Bev will self-destruct if she is a con-artist; we don't need to waste time figuring out how to punish her NOW, when NOW is the time for ANYTHING ELSE.

Feel free to even call bev a */rove manchurian agent if you like! Say she's the ENEMY AND MOVE ON.

Bev will not save the country NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS, and bashing her only takes away from your energy to do SOMETHING like organize a protest in your home town!

By bashing bev you _are_ contributing to one possible outcome:

AP NEWS REPORTING
Bev Harris was found dead of an apparent suicide. She was reportedly very depressed after recent allegations of mis-use of donated funds...

Think about how you'd go about manipulating others and then think about what may be happening to you...

All the best!

FULL_METAL_HAT

[saracat]

92. OMG! This is the most ridiculous thing I have ever read on this situation!

All that Bed does is to be ignored because Bush is worse? And if people who are burnt by her continue to complain she will suicide herself and it will be the fault of those who complained? Is that what you are saying? This is just wild! I was about to agree that this topic should be put to rest until I read this. Incredible
BTW, you do realize that if Bev didn't continually bash people she herself could end this discussion? The controversy had almost dies down about KO when she bashed DU and KO again on the radio. She constantly posts bizarre attacks on her site and causes people to respond. The one who doesn't want this to end is obviously Bev herself.

[americanstranger]

94. Pretty wild.

Our criticism is gonna make Bev kill herself.

There's one flaw in the argument - Bev does not listen to criticism.

If she was open to hearing criticism, she would have heard what people were saying to her instead of adding them to the Bev Harris Enemies List or threatening to sue them.

This gets my nomination for Wackiest Bev Harris Defense.

-as

[Junkdrawer]

95. Umm...I think FULL_METAL_HAT alludes to a murder sanitized as a suicide..

As in "J. Clifford Baxter was suicided by the BFEE".

[americanstranger]

97. That makes even LESS sense.

If, as it's been said on this thread and many others, that it's the objective of we who criticize Bev Harris to 'discredit' here or 'bring her down,' then it would follow that 'discrediting' Bev would cause her to be less of a threat to those who would 'suicide' her.

Please explain to me how criticizing Bev Harris would cause the BFEE to kill her?

-as

[Junkdrawer]

101. I agree it makes no sense...

But neither did invading Iraq...

Now, as for how "we" would contribute to this, if their plan was to discredit, then murder, then over-the-top Bev Bashing can only contribute to their plans.

If you have a beef with Bev, then by all means air it. But the incessant bashing of a person who is no longer here to defend herself is something else.

[Kelvin Mace]

123. She can't post to this forum

we can't post to hers. How is it unfair?

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Kelvin Mace]

121. SEE!!!!!!!

It's started already. The loonies are already claiming she was "suicided". JOIN THE REALITY-BASED COMMUNITY PEOPLE!!!!

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Junkdrawer]

128. I'd respond, but my mouth is way too full with your words. n/t

[Junkdrawer]

93. Note to the Powers That Be: Do you really want a martyr for the issue?

Because that's what you'll get.

[saracat]

105. So??????

[Junkdrawer]

112. Perhaps you could expand on that last enigmatic response...

or would that destroy it's "Frightening as Fuck" aura.

[saracat]

138. I am suggesting I have as little interest in that scenario as she had in

Rob Behler, or any of the other people she used to her own advantage.

[Kelvin Mace]

120. God, I hope not.

Aside from the tragedy, we'll have to listen to endless claims that she was iced by Diebold/Rove/Kerry/DU/Me/Keith Oberlmann

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Fescue4u]

107. She certainly is in love with herself

Geehs.

[bobbyboucher]

113. Too much Bev bashing, give it a rest.

Let things run their course. If you wanted me to give you a detailed outline of how Rover the Dog would destroy Bev Harris and cloud the issues regarding Black Box, it would look eerily similiar to what happened here at DU.

Back off of Bev and let this thing play out.

[Dancing_Dave]

115. Indeed.

She's done her bit to raise consciousness, no doubt about it.

[Kelvin Mace]

125. And we should really lay off Bush

I mean there is just TOO much criticism on this board of that guy.


David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[JMac]

130. Bev Bashing?

You Bevbots keep throwing the word 'bashing' around. Where on this thread has anyone 'bashed' Bev? All I see is people telling about their experiences in dealing with Bev. If people telling their stories about dealing with Bev makes Bev look bad, it could hardly be considered bashing.

If it so offends you Bevbots to see Bev 'bashed'. Why do you all run to every Bev thread to defend her? I would avoid threads that I knew were about Bev if it offended me to see her 'bashed'. If there were no-one for the Bev 'bashers' to argue with, the threads would die. Instead you Bevbots just intensify the battle and expose Bevs flaws even more by having them replayed over and over and over. Personally, I think that the MO of Bevbots to have the issue stay alive.

BTW. You Bevbots don't have to answer, the questions above were rhetorical. By all means Bevbots, please keep defending Bev. It makes me feel smarter than I actually am seeing so many naive people. Also its great entertainment.

In closing, Bev's a bitch! Theres you a bash!

[bettyellen]

132. BEV's Peeps: Please explain the Cali settlement and how it's not blood $$$

yes, it's a real question, i just don't get how taking the settlement helps ensure cleaner elections. Pls explain the rationale behind this.

[Pastiche423]

135. Excellent question

I eagerly await the answer.

[bettyellen]

136. thanks! wow, they wre all over this place a while ago!

i'd love to know what good is being done by bbv in last eight weeks.

[Pastiche423]

137. Can no one answer this simple question?

[Pastiche423]

142. Very revealing

that nary a one has attempted to answer your question, huh?

[Obviousman]

139. I have no idea what to believe anymore

William Donohue

[borealowl]

145. this thread

Is it really fair to go on like this about someone who is not permitted to respond? It seems to me that if someone is banned from a virtual community, good etiquette demands that they not be made a subject of discussion, if they can't defend themselves.

[Kelvin Mace]

146. She is not prohibited from responding

she has her own forum and web site to respond from. She can't post here, we can't post there. Where is the unfairness?

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org