A warning..

[undergroundpanther]

If you let other "people" convince you to let an important story drop(like vote fraud)(for fear of tin foil or fear of"reputation)It's a sign of perception management manipulation.Who has the right to tell anyone else what kind of story is not worth investigating and why believe people determined to undermine a story?
As the vote fraud story gets more damming,I see more people are told and repeat it is"discredited" Hmmm..I see important issues drop like stones in the threads because of a few loud haranguing voices screaming shit about tin foil,to manage perceptions and engineer social opinions of what in a situation is worth pursuing and what is not.I think voter fraud is VERY important to pursue.And we all know there are people who would rather sensed people on goose chases,discredit people before they get it out,discredit delude and create dilemmas all so the story of vote fraud never fully breaks into public consciousness.

.
Read about an author who wrote a VALID story that made the CIA uncomfortable and how the MEDIA managed public perceptions of the whole idea of CIA involvement in the drug trade.(Iran-Contra).This story of perception management really does apply to the way the vote fraud issue is being "managed" here on DU..Cointelpro style perception management bullshit going on ,on DU...I think so.Interesting...make comparisons and THINK FOR YOURSELF.
Read THIS:
http://www.newsmakingnews.com/vm,garywebb,12,014,04into...
Excerpt:

"The funny thing was, despite all the furor, the facts of the story never changed, except to become more damning. But the perception of them did, and in this case, that is really all that mattered. Once a story became "discredited," the rest of the media shied away from it. Dark Alliance was consigned to the dustbin of history, viewed as an Internet conspiracy theory that had been thoroughly disproved by more responsible news organizations.

Why did it occur? Primarily because the series presented dangerous ideas. It suggested that crimes of state had been committed. If the story was true, it meant the federal government bore some responsibility, however indirect, for the flood of crack that coursed through black neighborhoods in the 1980s. And that is something no government can ever admit to, particularly one that is busily promoting a multi billion-dollar-a-year War on Drugs.

But what of the press? Why did our free and independent media participate with the government's disinformation campaign? It had probably as many reasons as the CIA The Contra-drug story was something the top papers had dismissed as sheer fantasy only a few years earlier. They had not only been wrong, they had been terribly wrong, and their attitude had actively impeded efforts by citizens groups, journalists, and congressional investigators to bring the issue to national attention, at a time when its disclosure may have done some good. Many of the same reporters who declined to write about Contra drug trafficking in the 1980s -- or wrote dismissively about it -- were trotted out once again to do damage control."

[Al-CIAda]

1. Confessions of an Economic Hit Man

Confessions of an Economic Hit Man: How the U.S. Uses Globalization to Cheat Poor Countries Out of Trillions


We speak with John Perkins, a former respected member of the international banking community. In his book Confessions of an Economic Hit Man he describes how as a highly paid professional, he helped the U.S. cheat poor countries around the globe out of trillions of dollars by lending them more money than they could possibly repay and then take over their economies.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Perkins describes himself as a former economic hit man - a highly paid professional who cheated countries around the globe out of trillions of dollars.

20 years ago Perkins began writing a book with the working title, "Conscience of an Economic Hit Men."

Perkins writes, "The book was to be dedicated to the presidents of two countries, men who had been his clients whom I respected and thought of as kindred spirits - Jaime Roldós, president of Ecuador, and Omar Torrijos, president of Panama. Both had just died in fiery crashes. Their deaths were not accidental. They were assassinated because they opposed that fraternity of corporate, government, and banking heads whose goal is global empire. We Economic Hit Men failed to bring Roldós and Torrijos around, and the other type of hit men, the CIA-sanctioned jackals who were always right behind us, stepped in.

John Perkins goes on to write: "I was persuaded to stop writing that book. I started it four more times during the next twenty years. On each occasion, my decision to begin again was influenced by current world events: the U.S. invasion of Panama in 1980, the first Gulf War, Somalia, and the rise of Osama bin Laden. However, threats or bribes always convinced me to stop."

But now Perkins has finally published his story. The book is titled Confessions of an Economic Hit Man.

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/11/09/1526251

[JaneDoughnut]

2. We just have to frame our concerns correctly

You are right about the government and press having an interest in discrediting vote fraud theories. But I think we can keep the movement going, without any tinfoil hats, if we frame it as election reform rather than vote fraud. I think most people would agree that voter intimidation, partisan election boards, and flawed machinery are a high-priority issue.

[checks-n-balances]

4. "Election Reform" - excellent reframing point! n/t

[tngledwebb]

5. I think the 'reform' label misses the point ,

Every elective process could do with a bit of that. This issue is quite different.

I believe we will never see an end to this regime unless we speak openly and truthfully at every turn. We need to understand what we are up against- the truly malignant nature of this govt, and the complicity of MSM in supporting its agenda. Ongoing for years.

Many of us still cannot accept that, but it is precisely what has happened.
This is not a Civics 101 debate. We are being illegally occupied and ruled by monsters. Do not dilute that message.

[understandinglife]

8. You 'frame it' correctly. Do stay 'on message.' Thank you. (n/t)

[Red State Blues]

10. couple'a thoughts

the framing issue is trickier than it seems on the surface because what appeals to "us", doesn't necessarily appeal to "them".

Us: The family (and by extension the gov't) should support independence, individuality and maximum development of all of its members.

Them: The family (and by extensionthe gov't) needs to have a strong central authority figure (father) who protects the family and keeps them safe, which they help by their obedience to him.

That said, I really don't disagree with you at all, I guess I just feel like typing.

Election Reform vs. Vote Fraud. Excellent, perfect framing.

Devil's advocate pretending to be them for a moment:
voter intimidation = doesn't happen. They don't approve of it personally so they find it hard to believe that others who vote as they do would do such a thing. Even in the face of massive evidence.

Remember: Clean election vs. People waiting 9 hours to vote in Ohio = Unbelievable Cognitive Dissonance

partisan election boards: Well aren't they all partisan?

flawed machinery = "I didn't have any problems with MY voting equipment."

Living in a VERY Red State, this is the kind of crap I have to listen to everyday. I'm not trying to tear anyone here down, just trying to move things along.

[Karenca]

3. The Rise of the Amerikan Nazis part III

Read this: I am not a crazy extremist, but I believe we may have no other alternative than to take over the WH.

Parts I and II are there.
Rise of the Amerikan Nazis

Amerikan Terrorists, American Tragedy

Part III of III - Part I Here - Part II Here

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article7532.htm

[kk897]

6. Hey Undergroundpanther: did you sometimes post over on

Unknown News? I love that site, and if it is you, I've missed your commentary there.

[undergroundpanther]

7. Yeah I be the same cat here

as there...
Thanks for the kind words!! :)

[electropop]

9. Please avoid the Rove terms "vote fraud" and "voter fraud"

He designed them and promoted them to imply that the fraud was committed _by_ voters, rather than _against_ voters. The correct term is "election fraud"

[OKthatsIT]

11. We're all Black here

I honestly cant see how folks can be manipulated by 'perspectives' either.

The crooks abused African American voters, AGAIN...its the oldest slimiest Southern crap we've been living with since the civil war.

We, The People, have allowed it to exist because of our own ignorance. Now, We, The People have to stop it. But why now? What makes up pay attention now?

I feel that this FRAUD/SUPPRESSION election has penetrated the sub-strata of our psyches, at a level where we(People of all color) really get it. We ARE the vote. Each individual realizes now that ALL of US count. WE make up the whole. And its personal.