We were beaten by religion, nothing more, nothing less

[RunningFromCongress]

evangelicals came out in force for the gay marriage bans; then they voted for Bush. And we didn't get enough of the 18-29 group out to counter/exceed it. It's that simple. That's why we lost Ohio. We need to as a party come together and get 1 fucking stance on this gay marriage thing. Here's my proposal

US Constitutional Amendment that:

#1 - Make civil unions legal mirrors of marriage
#2 - Removes the rights of judges to perform a marriage, so they can only grant civil unions (MM, FF, MF) Only religious organizations can "marry" people.


Then we have to let states ban gay marriage all they want. Encourage it even. That will win us a lot of moderates back; and should keep the ultra religious happy enough.

We need to start getting policy proposed that addresses the "problem" not the result. Same with abortion; Clinton's stance is great "Safe, Legal, Rare". The more we can promote positive things lounder than the pukes can promote banning things, the more we'll get the populus back on our side.

George Bush has won a CLEAR Mandate. This mandate came from the christian right.

What I'm saying is we can start winning again. But we have to yell just as loud as they do with solutions not reactions.

[Carl Brennan]

1. The election was rigged.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=11874#

[DELUSIONAL]

13. Black Box Voting

The election was a piece of cake to steal.

[TorchTheWitch]

30. it was voter fraud

Simple as that. The black boxes, voter intimidation, tossing out of new registrations, voters purged without cause from the rolls, etc., etc.

Come now, folks... who REALLLLLY thought they wouldn't cheat in every possible way in order to win? They were working on the fix since they stole the last pres election.

Welcome to Imperial Amerika

[punpirate]

2. Not religion...

... but, rather, religious extremism.

And, I would argue that Bush has no mandate; he has only the larger volume of a fanatical minority which is dangerous.

[RunningFromCongress]

6. Good point

I tried to hint at that. But we were beaten by religion none-the-less.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[punpirate]

11. Liberalism can be your religion...

... if you wish, but it will be your downfall in discussing either policy or religion with the fundies.

Secularism is not a religion--it is, rather, an acknowledgement of how society should be structured.

If you buy into liberalism as a religion, you've played into the fundies' hands, simply because they'll say their religion is stronger and more powerful than yours. That's their attractive argument supplied to their supporters.

It's not about religion. It's about society and how government affects society.

Cheers.

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[punpirate]

27. Quite the contrary....

Hoser? Does that mean you are a quarrelsome Canadian liberal, attacking the American?

Let's get this clear. You're the newbie, and the know-nothing.

You manage only one two-syllable word in eight words in your post, and accuse me of being a troll? Begone, cave-dweller.

Begone. Depart. Vaporize. Materialize in the nether regions from whence you originated.

Next time you manage to sneak in here, try a sensible argument, else be forever banished to Robinson's sticky, smelly and tacky lair.

[Carl Brennan]

23. No kidding, Hitler had a fanatical minority and look what

he got everyone thinking he was a majority leader.

[Pacifist Patriot]

44. I would argue a middle ground and say it's the insidious

influence of religious extremism into modern consciousness. People who wouldn't ordinarily identify themselves as religious extremists have bought into the policy stances provided by the far right. Religious liberalism needs to recognize that we can respect separation of church and state while at the same time coloring our politics with our liberal religious views.

The assumptive language of the far right should serve as a convenient blueprint. "I know you'll agree when I say....<fill in with your perspective.>" Over time that sort of brainwashing can be incredibly effective. Why not start shouting "I know you'll agree when I say all men are created equal." Sounds like pissing in the wind right now, but I have confidence rationalism can once again dominate American politics. Reclaim our heritage and stop surrendering it to the lies of the right.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

3. Bullshit!

[JJ]

4. Not religion

Diebold

[lgardengate]

5. Can't Ban judges from performing marriage. The non religious....

but not gay folks will never go along,and that's alot of people.

[RunningFromCongress]

8. Why not? If civil unions carry the same rights

why would the non-religious need the label? If we give civil unions the same "weight" of marriage I don't think they would care.

[okieinpain]

40. yeah, and a good portion of them voted bush.

[jmowreader]

42. I think he's going for a "legal construct."

If you were a straight couple who were united under a "civil union" performed by a judge, when your friends introduced you, would they say "This is Tom and Annie, and they're civilly united"? No, they'd say you were married.

Uniting ceremony performed by a judge - "civil union"
Uniting ceremony performed by a minister - "marriage"

At which point you could define the candidates for "civil union" to be "two persons both of the age of majority who are not related by blood."

Works for me.

[davhill]

9. Marriage is irrelivent for most people

The only reason the Government got involved with it in the first place was to insure children would be supported. We have better ways of doing that now. A lot of hetrosexual couples are dispensing with it entirely and gay couples don't generally need it. It should be a religous ceremony only for those who believe it is a sacrament.

[RunningFromCongress]

10. My point EXACTLY

[BrightKnight]

12. Beaten by Faith Based Voting Machines

[DELUSIONAL]

15. Exactly the fundies wrote the software

[Carl Brennan]

20. hee, hee

[Carl Brennan]

19. hee, hee, hee.

[jfk2004]

14. IT WAS NOT RELIGION, IT WAS KERRY UNABLE TO ADDRESS RELIGION

WHEN ASKED ABOUT RELIGION, BARACK OBAMA DID IT WITH A SIMPLE SENTENCE:

"I AM RUNNING TO BE YOUR SENATOR, NOT YOUR HIGH PRIEST"

[kitchen girl]

50. That was a perfect statement, IMO.

Obama is amazing.

[Seabiscuit]

16. I read weeks ago on DU that the Christian Coalition claims that it

controls 25% of American voters. So yes, that's definitely what tipped the scale.

Time for another Civil War. Who will be our Abe Lincoln this time around? I certainly wouldn't act on it and certainly wouldn't promote it, but at times like this I feel we should just kill all these bastards and be done with it.

[Philostopher]

17. Look, plenty of evangelical Dems

voted for Kerry and for the Ohio "gay marriage" issue. It most likely went across the racial divide -- many of the Dems who voted to ban "gay marriage" were probably African Americans.

What lost us Ohio this year, and will continue to lose elections for us until we figure out a way to circumvent it, is willful ignorance. What a lot of people who voted for Issue 1 didn't understand is that it applies to all 'non-marriage' partnerships, including heterosexual, common-law marriages. That's why the AARP came out against it -- there are many elderly couples who live together and have common-law marriages in Ohio who enjoy some protections (like hospital visits and probate) who will lose those rights under this amendment.

It also prohibits any state institution (and the language is so vague, it probably can be used to prohibit private companies, as well) from offering said benefits, either to homosexual or common-law heterosexual partnerships.

But the ignorant dupes of all races and religions didn't bother to read it. They just thought, 'I don't want those queers gettin' married! That nice young man on FOX said it would take away from the sanctity of all four of my marriages!'

[okieinpain]

41. agreed, that's why we need to be able to dump some of these

issues. I'm more concerned with who is going to be put on the scotus, then I am with gay marriage, gun control, abortion, and affirmative action.

we need to dump issues that are not getting us anything in return. gays' are voting for bush, women are voting for bush because of abortion. men white, and black are voting for bush for fear of losing their guns, and a lot of blacks are not even aware that affirmative action is helping them so they vote for bush about taxes.

and that's something else, why the hell do we always have to be the one talking about raising taxes, hell lie about it like the repugs do.

[Julian English]

21. Bullshit--it rained in Ohio and the Dem precincts had lousy voting booths

[RunningFromCongress]

33. not true, WE MET ALL Ohio voting #s we needed to

The religious just came out stronger in the SW Ohio than we expected

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Union Thug]

24. This election further crystallized my hatred of ALL religious BS.

These fantasy world, dark agers really chap my hide.

Atheists and 'secular humanists' of the world, UNITE!

[pauliedangerously]

29. Dude...I feel your rage

But we are a minority, unfortunately. Maybe we could pick a state to start infiltrating...like Alabama. Wouldn't that be a hoot? We could go around knocking on peoples' doors and give them a dose of their own medecine...without the supernatural, hokus-pokus, eternal-life-in-paradise, 10,000-year-old-dinosaur fossils, BULLSHIT.

Funny thing to me is this: I don't think guys like Pat Robertson even believe the horseshit they're spreading around. It's a power grab, just like Tom Paine said it was all those years ago.

It's sad and hilarious at the same time.

:7 ;( :7 ;( :7 ;( :7 ;( :evilgrin: :evilgrin: ;( ;(

[mitchum]

55. Once again, what WillW said!

My sentiments exactly

[CHICKEN CAPITOL USA]

28. they'd like you to think

they are the majority!!!
ha ha ha
not even close...
and the * supporters are not the majority either

FIXED E Voting--that's what won the election!
get used to it
we can never change it ever because the every election will produce winners that support fixing things for the republikkkans.
No way to ever get the issue addressed.
Bush is in permanently and there will never be another Dem majority in either house.

[Shreddesaurous]

31. Same-Sex Marriage...or not...

This seems very much like something i thought of a while back.

First, I am inclined to disagree. I don't think religion lost this election. I think FEAR won it for Bush, but that's another discussion altogether.

The fundamental flaw in the argument against same-sex marriage is that their approaching marriage from their religious perspective. Alas, marriage is a legal contract as well. The moment some state sold the first marriage license, marriage ceased to be solely a religious institution.

Here's what I propose:

Get government out of the marriage business entirely. All LEGAL rights would be sealed through civil unions. Hense, a couple could be married in a church, but if they don't get a civil union, they will not have the legal rights formerlly attributed. A couple could get a civil union alone and not bother with the superfluous religious ceremony.

This accomplishes several things:

1. It's an important step towards a secular government.
2. Revenue would increase as their would be more people sealing their relationships.
3. The bible-thumpers get to keep their precious marriage all to themselves.

This is the only solution that makes sense to me. Thoughts?

[RunningFromCongress]

34. I agree, it's the same thing I proposed

We need to push that to the people running in mid-term elections

[KRose]

32. Excellent your right! I mean correct!!

Your right its these dam wedge issues killing us.

[GOPBasher]

35. Yes, that's true.

[HEIL PRESIDENT GOD]

36. So we get ballot initiatives to legalize pot in 20 states in 08

And the stoners come out and vote for ______ on their way out.

[okieinpain]

37. ah, finally someone see's the light.

[TWiley]

38. Religious fundamentalism is the problem.

It does not matter what type. Mix any fundamentalist religion with conservative politics along with whooping war chants and the results are the same.

There is no difference between the American Tali-ban, the Muslim Tali-ban, or the Jewish Tali-ban. The truth is that we are thousands of times more threatened by the Christian Fundamentalist Conservatives (American Tali-ban) than any other due to their direct influence over our lives.

The homosexual marriage issue was a shrewd maneuver by the bushies. They new it would draw the fundamentalists out by the truckload. Toss in Abortion and they now have their nose stuck into both homosexual and heterosexual relations. My prediction is that it will get worse, much worse.

They have just legalized discrimination in Michigan. The Christo-fascists will not be satisfied with that.

If you want to keep your job the next four years, learn to incorporate a "hallelujah" or a "praise gawd" in every third sentence.

[slackmaster]

39. What's the count on threads that try to explain it as one simple factor?

I've lost count.

[cubsfan forever]

48. You mean like "stealing the election?" n/t

Professor 2

[Individualist]

43. Wake up!

If you don't realize the election was rigged, you haven't been paying attention. We've known it would be for a long time!

[blurp]

45. Judges can't? Only ministers? What about atheists?

Does this mean atheists can't get married?

[RunningFromCongress]

46. Why would an atheist want to get married?

For the legal benifits, thus with civil unions holding the same legal rights, there would be no reason for a marriage unless your religious.

[rockydem]

47. I think you're right - we can beat them at their own game

They have to very careful about their public gay bashing - they frame it in terms of defending marriage. We shatter that frame and all they have left is their gay-hating.

I think you're on to something here.

[lizzieforkerry]

49. The Catholic Church sided with Bush because

Bush had probably promised to include them in the tort reform bill. The CC is bankrupt due to all of the lawsuits and can't get insurance. We are betting that in the next tort reform bill there will be caps for the Church. This would explain why it was the Bishops that came out for Bush despite the Pope having a clear problem with Bush. Kerry was in no position to offer the same because he was a Catholic and Catholics would have resented him backing the Bishops instead of their children. Kerry lost because priests molested boys. I wanted to post this but I don't have enough- Feel free to Post to see if anyone has heard or thinks the same thing! Thanks! I still think it was stolen by the voting machines but too many Catholics voted for Bush...

[HEIL PRESIDENT GOD]

51. So they are FOR gay sex

But only between adults and minors?

[lizzieforkerry]

53. Actually the American CC has

a recognized gay/lesbian ministry.

[Fiendish Thingy]

52. We weren't beaten, we were robbed- of democracy

BY BBV, Destruction of Dem. registrations, and high spoilage rates of minority ballots.

[lizzieforkerry]

54. Amen n/t

[AlinPA]

56. And BBV machines.