I don't think Edwards helped - though it's not his fault

[liberalpragmatist]

I love John Edwards and I'm glad he was on the ticket. Even so, the gamble clearly was that he'd improve the ticket's chances in rural areas. Unfortunately, it didn't really work. I don't think that's really a reflection of Edwards - it's more a statement of something we need to remember - people don't vote for the Vice President. Sure, the pick is useful for good press and morale, but ultimately they vote for the presidential candidate.

I suppose I'm saying it's Kerry's fault we lost the rural vote so badly. But not really. I really dont' feel like blaming Kerry, b/c the more I think about it, as winnable as the race was, Kerry did the best he could have been expected and did far better than I can imagine most of our (all excellent, IMO) candidates would have done. I think Edwards would've done better among rural voters and religious voters - however, I don't think it would've been enough, and I think he would've lost on national security.

The big obstacle with the rural vote is that the rural vote was never really anti-Bush. Sure, you can find examples of anti-Bush fervor. But by and large, the rurals love Bush because they (falsely) identify with him. I don't think Edwards made much progress with them as the running mate just because I don't think enough of them were shopping for a new candidate. So the problems there are long-term and will take some major rethinking.

[Sandpiper]

1. I don't think Edwards helped at all

I think Dick Gephardt would have been a better choice.

[DjTj]

5. When they were considering Gephardt I remember the same concerns...

...He was only popular in his district and not in the rural parts of Missouri.

The Kerry people didn't think Gephardt could deliver a state either.

[tjdee]

6. Plus he is BORING as hell.

Or soothing, whichever side you come down on.

He was Dem leader in the House, not exactly firing up the folks there was he.

[Sandpiper]

8. Whereas Edwards looks and charm were such big plusses

In getting red states to go blue.

[tjdee]

23. This loss is not even a little bit Edwards' fault.

And I also think people are overvaluing the importance of the Vice Presidential candidate.

The loss margin would have been much higher with Gephardt, I think.

[GreenPartyVoter]

29. Agreed. It's the FRAUD not the ticket

-----------------------------------------------------------
FIGHT! Take this country back one town and state at a time!
http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/electionreform.htm

[DjTj]

2. I think Edwards had value as an advisor; gamble was on the future...

Kerry used Edwards to develop campaign themes and they spent a lot of time together on the trail - I think Edwards did help in that respect.

I don't think he was chosen to deliver any specific votes.

The gamble was on the future - Edwards/Obama '12 ... maybe it can still happen.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

3. I think we continually LOSE those states because we give up on them

How many times was Kerry in Alabama or Mississippi or Texas?

We need to get to every state over and over and stop playing this "battleground" game ad naseum. Wouldn't it have been great to MAKE BUSH go campaign in his safe states?

[southlandshari]

9. Zero

in Alabama, at least.

[Syrinx]

13. Kerry never came to Alabama, Edwards did once

But that was just for a high-ticket fundraiser.

And Kerry didn't utilize Edwards nearly enough in general. He should have had Edwards barnstorming the southern, western and rural precincts everywhere!

IMO.

[tjdee]

4. I don't think the cheating helped either.

Edwards was not picked solely on the rural vote issue.

He was picked because he gave the ticket a warm optimistic quality, and because Kerry is from Massachussetts--aka, Taxachussetts, Liberal Town....and also because Kerry is uber-rich and Edwards had the millworker's son thing happening.

If Edwards turns out to be the scapegoat here (which isn't what you are doing), that will be not only unfortunate, but false on its face.

[glarius]

7. The possibility of cheating is what has bothered me from the start!

I may not understand it correctly, but as I see it, the exit polls all pointed to a Kerry victory....Then suddenly they all started pointing to a defeat.....Today the pundits and TV talking heads are saying the exit polls were wrong....My question is - ALL OF THEM?....In all the states they read the exit polls wrong????....This strikes me as pretty hard to believe, or have I misunderstood something here?

[robbedvoter]

26. Damn liberal math!

[sandnsea]

10. That was lack of organization

It drove me insane here in Oregon. I begged for some communication from Portland for the coast and putting together a more rural approach of the platform and got nothing. About a month ago, they sent over a paid coordinator and everybody hated her. The rural vote wasn't Edwards' fault, it was the state campaign coordinators' fault or the campaign as a whole.

[ciaobox]

11. Stop blaming yourselves.

We did everything right. Stolen people. Stolen. Please please please wake up.

[sugarcookie]

12. My humble opinion,

so please don't burn me alive. But I actually think had the ticket been reversed Edwards/Kerry we may have done a little better with the voters here (a really red county in Texas). I cannot begin to tell you how many times I heard people say if Edwards was running for president they would consider voting for him. I do think that the good looking "son of a mill worker" appealed to them. I have heard this from men as well as women.

[oldtime dfl_er]

16. Dems can't win with a Northerner

Kennedy was the last Northerner to win for the Dems. Since then, the Dems have won with Carter (GA), Clinton (Arkansas) and Gore (TN). A reversal of the Kerry/Edwards ticket may have had a slightly better chance.

[Wright Patman]

14. I'd like to see Social Security

severely cut back to pay for the never-ending war instead of charging it to future generations and then we'll see how the rural citizens vote.

In my county, that monthly check from the feral gubmint is the single largest source of income.

[Andromeda]

17. Would you say that if Social Security

was the only income you had?

In some households that Social Security check is the only thing that keeps the elderly and disabled alive.

[Wright Patman]

22. My point is

that the rural citizens who keep voting for "morality" based on the Bible need to suffer some economic consequences for their actions.

You reap what you sow. That's what their Bible tells them. It also says "if you don't work, you don't eat" and there is no exemption for the disabled.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

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[President Jesus]

18. Well said. He didn't hurt...but he didn't help.

As far as the red-state funies are concerned, 2004 is a culture war. We spent all out time (as we should have) running against Bush. But they didn't care about his incompetence...and that was our miscalculation. They're issues were gay marriage, abortion, stem-cells, and hollywood. All they needed to know about Bush was that he has "Jesus" in his heart.

This has been at the root of what drives them, and I think we're just now starting to get it. I ask myself over and over how these people could possibly look at the past four years and turn out in droves for Bush, a guy who so obviously is unqualied for the position (and has proven it). Answer: they don't care about that, whereas we're obsessed with it.

Humans are simply not ready for democracy if whole populations base their votes on faith and the wishes of an invisible man in the sky, instead of reason and results.

[jacksonian]

20. maybe we should look at it this way

as in Kentucky, for example, with Bunning.

The two party system is just not set up to deal with the subject of incompetance. If everything is ideologically red-blue, as a voter you are bound to your side's philosphy - having an incompetant man on your side doesn't necessarily mean you will now change color.

In Europe, a voter faced with the same thing would just slide over to the next party on the spectrum.

[jacksonian]

19. no, nobody should scapegoat Edwards

my point is he wasn't right man for Kerry's weaknesses - which means an Edwards/Kerry ticket would have been even more absurd.

Edwards did little for the ticket. The point is a political career of half a term of senator just hadn't yet evolved the electoral muscle in the South we needed.

Plus it was stolen.

[cassiepriam]

21. It is not about who ran

Anybody who opposed the dictatorship would
not have had a chance. IT was a campaign
of lies and slander. Hard to defend against that.

[AP]

24. If you look at the county breakdowns in the states in which they campaign-

ed, it looks like they did OK in rural areas.

Compare, for example, the NY and IN maps to OH, MN, WI or MI.

In Indianna they won exactly ONE county. I think it was the one Gary is in. In MI, there are many neutral and blue counties outside Detroit and Ann Arbor, and there aren't solid swatches of pink and red. Kerry-Edwards did well in the entire NE part of MN and even did well in MI's UP.

They won the states in which they competed by winning the cities and by doing reasonably well in the rural areas.


http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/president/

[Blue Wally]

27. I looked at the county map.

Those northern peninsula of Michigan and mortjhern Minnesota areas are not agricultural. They are depressed areas of played-out iron and copper mines and picked over timber lands.


Michigan counties that went Democratic include Wayne (Detroit), Gennessee (Flint), Saginaw, and Bay which are all industrial. They also include Washtenaw (UofM) and Ingham (MSU). There are a scattering of northern lower peninsula counties where the last industry was logging. The soil is way too sandy to support agriculture. The upper Peninsula counties are primarily Gogebic and marquette which are tapped out iron mines.

An interestiong note on the county map is the blue counties straddling the Mississippi River all the way from Minnesota to Louisiana.

My local fishwrap had the county map in it today. Does anyone have a link to the county map on the net??? Associated Press might be the source. Really an eyeopener.

[AP]

28. I don't think the divide the dems need to worry about is ag. vs ind.

It's big cities vs everywhere else.

I stand by what I said. In Mich, Minn., Wis., & Ohio -- the states where the Dems campaigned -- Kerry and Edwards did well outside the big cities. In states like NY and Ind. where they didn't campaigh, the Republicans did well outside the big cities.

[robbedvoter]

25. He lowered the gravitas considerably. Still we won, it was stolen

But in the future - remember: dems cannot afford figureheads on the ticket. We need exceptional people.
I am now refering to a distant future when we'll have real elections again



Famous last words:
"I have no time for those crying in your teacups for stolen elections"
John Kerry, campaign trail 2003