Greg Palast says Kerry won Ohio, he'll post the article this morning

[milkyway]

on TomPaine.com.

KERRY WON.
Here's the facts.

Thursday, November 4, 2004

I know you don't want to hear it. You can't face one more hung chad. But I don't have a choice. As a journalist examining that messy sausage called American democracy, it's my job to tell you who got the most votes in the deciding states. Tuesday, in Ohio and New Mexico, it was John Kerry.

Most voters in Ohio thought they were voting for Kerry. CNN's exit poll showed Kerry beating Bush among Ohio women by 53% to 47%. Kerry also defeated Bush among Ohio's male voters 51% to 49%. Unless a third gender voted in Ohio, Kerry took the state.

Get the full story in the next hour on TomPaine.com. A special Greg Palast invesigation.

http://gregpalast.com/index.cfm

http://tompaine.com/

[FreshAir]

1. Hmm..

I hope he has something other than notoriously unreliable exit polls to point to...

[displacedtexan]

3. notoriously unreliable?

Cite a reputable source or two, please.

[GR]

10. Exit Polls Were Right In Florida 2000. Why Assume They're Wrong Now...

they are correct and Bush stole the election.

[DUreader]

4. when have exit polls been wrong?

not 2000 nor 2002

[brainshrub]

9. Exit polls have the magical ability to be wrong when taken in

a precinct that uses BBV machines.

It's rather amazing, actually.

[shelley806]

43. Bingo! And it is precisely these amazing statistics that will prove our

case that Kerry won the election, and that once again, Mr. Back Bulge was cheating...

[brainshrub]

45. You might have had a chance is Kerry fought back.

But Kerry surrendered; So no matter how blatant the cheating is the information will only make it to fringe-websites.

Remember: Greg Palast had a fucking paper-trail, witnesses and a ton of evidence... and nothing happened.

[shelley806]

47. Concession is not legally binding; not with fraud proven. n/t

[brainshrub]

48. Kerry could have been a megaphone to point out the fraud.

With his surrender, he's muted the debate.

Even if it it proven, it is now a fringe issue.

Thanks Kerry!

[bowens43]

6. You guys are out early today.

[Florida_Geek]

7. FreshAir I have a feeling

you are not long for this place

[PatsFan2004]

49. Our Boston Globe pointed out that late on election day, a Kerry

staffer remembered that early exit polls in 2000 in certain states were off, too, and fooled everyone.

[a new day]

22. Is there any online forum anywhere where freepers don't go?

(answer, no.)

[Florida_Geek]

2. Ah a bookmarked thread

thanks

[BQueen]

5. Kerry can't concede for us -- only WE can concede.

Please read this rant I posted yesterday about the fact that everyone seems to be giving up on this election....

(snip)
Let's take this another step -- what if when the counts are completed, it shows Kerry won Ohio or Fla or both? Do those states then choose not to award those electoral votes even though the concession was based on early returns and the provisionals/absentees were lopsided for Kerry? Please!! The citizens of those states can seek to force the naming of the proper (Dem) electoral slate...Kerry can help by seeking to join as a third party plaintiff or by filing amicus briefs, but basically, it is not his ox being gored here (no pun intended when I decided to use that phrase, but it is fitting, no?). Shouldn't we want him enough to fight for him? He did for us, and I'm not convinced this isn't strategic, although I haven't had the benefit of viewing his concession speech.

Another step -- even if the counts don't go Kerry's way, suppose that due to efforts by various individuals and groups we demonstrate that there is something fishy, get investigations, etc., and can raise a colorable claim of election fraud. And don't start in on me with the nay-saying -- fraud takes time to investigate, you can't do a damned thing until it's going down, and the polls haven't even been closed for 24 hours yet. The corpse not only isn't cold yet -- it isn't even a fucking corpse! So quit your keening over the late-not-so-great Kerry campaign; no sale.

Okay, back to the fraud -- one major pillar of the law is that decisions (legal rulings, contracts, etc.) based on fraud are not binding. The Latin term is "void ab initio," which I always liked for some reason, meaning held void from the beginning, as if it never existed. Now, granted, I have no idea of the application of the concept to say, an inauguration, but I think it could certainly be applied to the certification of a slate of electors.

Without doing research on more of the specifics, I can't come up with a date (seem to recall mid-December from 2000...) and even if the certifications go thru then, proof of fraud could arguably require recert up to inauguration.

BOTTOM LINE: From what I can prod out of my brain right now, it is my belief that we have about a month and a half to get at least probable cause level evidence on the fraud in order to attempt a halt of the certification of the electors' slates.
(snip)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2590721#2592112

[brainshrub]

8. If Kerry hadn't surrendered so quickly, I'd be curious.

In 2000 Greg Palast had a paper-trail, documentation, eye-witnesses and a ton of other evidence.

What happened: Nothing.

As much as I like Mr. Palast, he is pissing in the wind. If Kerry were a fighter, there would be some hope. But we nominated a wuss.

[BQueen]

15. It's not his fight -- it's OURS

these are our votes, our rights -- Kerry is not a party to the election contract between the United States and its citizens. It is OUR job to see that the electoral contract is enforced, not Kerry's -- precisely the reason Bush v. Gore should never have been heard.

I am not convinced that this is not strategy, since the concession is not legally binding. How DARE you say he's a wuss -- He fought for us, shouldn't we want him enough to fight for him? Frankly, I'm getting sick of the defeatism and willingness to trash Kerry around here. Politics is not just war, it is theater -- sometimes you have to fake your opponents, and, unfortunately, that will seem incomprehensible to supporters.

How many times have I read "to the barricades!" type language here, and now people are ready to give up just because the elephant in the room that is election fraud now cannot be ignored? Yeah, we hoped it wouldn't come to this...but should we be surprised? Hell no!

[brainshrub]

23. You know I love you.

But I'm going to stand by that comment.

I can't believe what I'm saying either, but he said he would make sure every vote would count... but then when faced with a fight he backed down. Talk about a flip-flopper!

If Kerry had fought then people like Bev Harris, Greg Palast or other activists would have something to hold onto. At the very least they would have had a vehicle to take their case before the mainstream media.

With Kerry's surrender, even if they have a smoking gun, the news will be marginalized to the fringes. You'll read about it here at DU... and maybe in a few years someone will write a book, but it will be to late by then.

There is no disgrace in losing an election, that politics. Surrendering in the face of a fight, that's either incompetence or laziness.

I hope I'm wrong. I pray this is some kind of surprise strategy.

[BQueen]

25. I agree that it "looks" that way

but would you rather have the repugs off-balance and not expecting an attack on the validity of the election because they take the concession at face value or have them completely mobilized to oppose the investigation we must now mount, and quickly? -- which would have been the case if Kerry publicly proclaimed the fight was on.

I believe this is consistent with what I read here about Kerry and Edwards' demeanors during the concession -- Kerry restraining emotion (would have been so in any event, but I read it as knowing people are going to think he's selling them out -- something that would make it VERY hard for him) and Edwards angry because he comes off publicly as reneging on his repeated promises not to give up til every vote was counted.

I implore you to try to read the post I referenced above, which does lay out some detail as to how and why I think this is possible. but here is the final exhortation to action.

>>>None of this will be easy by any stretch of the imagination. This will take the combined effort, resources and strength of will of everyone who realizes that this is our country that is on the line. We ARE fighting for our lives, here. But, realistically, what did we expect? We knew that anything but “Kerry in a Landslide” was a recipe for repug “problems” after the election. We knew that the fight would continue into December or longer, even if the counts were over. We just hoped that we would be in a position of perceived strength for the fight. But perceived strength can be overrated. The element of a surprise knockout punch from a seemingly toppled foe cannot be.

We are the underdog. We are Rocky. We are DanielSan. We are the BoSox down three games to the New York Yankees, the richest team in baseball. They may have the money, but we have the talent and the will to take them out. They know that. They believe they have vanquished us because they have taken our head. But, like the mythical Hydra, the creature that will pursue them in their waking nightmare has many heads, all of which will be striking at different points at different times.

We are united - we will not be deterred, and we will not be denied the electoral process due us. This is not the end of anything; it is simply a new stage of the fight, slightly less heady than expected. But infinitely more gratifying if it comes off.

C'mon -- it's actually OUR turn now -- we get our chance to kick the bully in the nads. How many threads have I seen here crying in frustration that Kerry-Edwards weren't going for the jugular? They couldn't -- we can. It's that part of the movie where the bullied have to stand up and realize that together they are strong.

So, again I ask "What is this shith?.... Over?! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? **** It's not over til WE say it's over!" Because, dammit -- WE ARE THE PEOPLE.<<<

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2590721#2592112

[CAcyclist]

44. I'm backing you up, BQueen

I 'll support any effort to uncover the truth. Our country is at stake.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[GR]

12. Because He's Telling the Truth About Bush...?

Now, he's doing the right thing. Bush won with fake electronically created votes. Read The New Pearl Harbor to see what lengths Bush will go to to get power.

[Dukakis88]

13. I sometimes worry that Palast is just an egomaniac

He is always bragging about his ingenious methods for discovering secret documents that no one else has.

Don't get me wrong, if he finds the truth and proves it, right on. It's just that he seems a little too fond of himself sometimes.

[Bridget Burke]

16. You haven't been here long, have you?

Greg Palast has done some useful work. Too bad you don't like him.

[Dukakis88]

19. I'm familiar with him, and we need someone like him, but...

It's just I've watched him speak and he holds up documents talking about how they prove decisively that election 2000 was stolen, and making a lot of other claims, but his claims don't get any traction... maybe on BBC, but not in the US.

Maybe the media is shutting him out unreasonably, but why can't he make these stories stick and get results?

[symbolman]

50. We spent a LOT of time with Greg

hung out at his house, interviewed him at his office, etc..

he's the real deal.. he has the papers, he has the brains and stones and when he says something it's CORRECT

unlike the rest of the pandering media...

Takebackthemedia.com's got tons of Palast in our movie that's coming out called "Electile Dysfunction" as well as stars, activists, etc..

a fun romp

make no mistake, he's not only a cool guy, he's RIGHT.

[tinanator]

51. as if he could influence a fascist media?

how can anyone make the judgement youre asserting?
what decade are you living in?

[g5jamz]

17. exactly

if he continues...he's bound to find a religion like Mormonism at any point. Regardless of what little things he may find...I seriously doubt he's going to find 3.5 million worth and I'd be willing to bet that whatever is found will not win over the votes that either withheld in 2000 and voted in 2004.

[charlie]

18. Ohio went 3.5 million for Bush?

News to me. That is a rout.

[g5jamz]

20. overall

If Palast finds 140,000, I'll shut up.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dinger]

14. Is There ANY Hope This "Election"Can Be Saved?

[LisaL]

21. NO.

[BQueen]

24. YES (well, maybe)

please read the post I linked above (i think in post number 8)

This is OUR FIGHT -- no one can concede our rights but us.

[bones_7672]

27. Take a deep breath everybody!

Wait the 10 or 11 days until the provisional ballots and absentee ballots have been processed. In OH, as (hopefully) in all states, they will be processed by Dems & Repubs. Let's see what the counts are after this time frame so we know what we're up against. All the energy being vented right now may or may not be based on hard numbers. Let's see.

[Ducks In A Row]

28. He told Randi Rhodes two NPR shows cancelled him yesterday

because he was going to tell them that, and the media hates the truth

[AZCat]

29. NPR is not part of the "Reality-Based Community"

I can't listen to them anymore (except the evening jazz shows).

[daleo]

30. I think this is why Kerry caved in early

He just thought the system couldn't withstand closeup scrutiny again. There is no doubt that it would have been divisive, probably extremely divisive. So, the decision was made to 'play nice', for the greater good.

Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all convictions, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

The Second Coming -- W. B. Yeats

[robbedvoter]

31. WTF is the greater good? democracy is dead!

:wtf:
We no longer have elections in this country (some of us got the drift in 2002)

[teh636]

32. Just because...

Kerry lost does not mean democracy is dead. There will be future chances for future candidates. That time was not this election.

[daleo]

34. I agree, it is not the greater good

I meant it ironically. However, an establishment figure might be swayed by this argument. Papering things over by playing nice never works in the long run, though.

[demokatgurrl]

39. Papering things over, playing nice-

Democratic party specialties.
I love Kerry but I am still pissed off at him. He promised, every vote counts, every vote would be counted. Could he have caved any faster??????

[blurp]

37. Democracy alive, liberty dead

Democracy is what we got on Tuesday.

Liberty is what we had on Monday.

[demokatgurrl]

40. daleo- here's the rest!

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all convictions, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.



Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
Troubles my sight: somewhere in sands of the desert
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds.
The darkness drops again; but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

[daleo]

42. What rough beast indeed?

Who knows what we are in for.

[yardwork]

41. I've been thinking about that poem for several years!

There are way too many people lacking all convictions right now, while the extreme right-wing is full of passionate intensity.

[blurp]

33. Why actually count the votes? Just poll people.

Yeah, forget elections all together.

Seriously, this crap doesn't help win elections.

THE PRIMARY PROCESS NEEDS TO BE FIXED.

The fact that Dean was pushed to the side early on proves the process is broken.

Had Dean been the candidate, we'd have Republicans complaining about the exit polls and they would be whining.

Republicans played to their base this time and that enthusiastic base showed up to vote.

Dean was the only Democrat with real energy. That energy could have been translated into votes.

If you are not voting in the primaries, you're screwing up. That's where the real election is won or lost.

[judaspriestess]

35. Excellent Point Blurp

[Generator]

36. Kick

[GreenPartyVoter]

38. ARRRRGH!!!

-----------------------------------------------------------
FIGHT! Take this country back one town and state at a time!
http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/electionreform.htm

[Gregorian]

46. Why not just check voter registration?

Is it not safe to assume Democrats voted for Kerry? And republicans voted for *?

Or how about starting over?


I just read this Palast article and have confirmed for me why so many Americans are in shock. Shock doesn't happen from losing. It comes from being raped. Raped in the form of challenges. This is an outrage to freedom everywhere.

At first, I was relieved to be done. And I certainly don't need false hope at a time like this. BUT, I'm ready to fight this one to the death.