Interesting Times.

[library_max]

It's probably neither ancient nor Chinese, but the "ancient Chinese curse" of "May you live in interesting times" makes its point. It's often no fun to be there when history is made.

It's certainly no fun to look back and realize that the last free and fair Presidential election was in 1996. In 2000, the Republicans were surprised that it was so close, and they had to improvise a steal in Florida. This time, they had all their ducks in a row before the primaries. In retrospect, we never had a chance. Between electronic voting and gerrymandering and purges of the voting rolls and intimidating new and infrequent voters (read: Kerry voters), they had us coming and going. All the careful Democrats who voted absentee or provisional ballot to make sure that their votes got counted got to see the election called and conceded before the envelopes containing their votes were even opened.

And protest isn't going to change anything. Did it change anything in 2000? The votes were eventually counted in Florida in 2000, too, and Gore won. But Bush was already President. Same song, second verse.

The Republicans are now the PRI. They control all three branches at the federal and state levels. They can stay in power as long as they want. They are the government now. We need to give up the illusions that we matter politically, that there is any kind of partnership or cooperative role for Democrats. On the national level at least, we need to repudiate the government and all its works, because the government is the Republicans, pure and simple.

We are a true opposition party now. They are the establishment. We need to stand back and pick at their every misstep and failure and blunder, with mockery and cheap shots. We need everyone to understand that they, and not we, are running things and are responsible for the results. We need to ignore elections, at least on the federal level, for the foreseeable future. We need to prevent them from making us the fall guy for their failures, which is the only role they'll allow us politically. Like the PRI, eventually they'll become so ossified and institutional that they'll be vulnerable, but that point is decades away now.

For years, the Republicans have claimed that government is the enemy, that government can't and won't do anything to help anybody except the rich and powerful. Now they'll make it true. Watch education and every piece of the social safety net get "privatized" out of existence, at least on the federal level. "I'm from the government and I'm here to help you" really will become the bitter joke they've always claimed it is.

If there's anything we can accomplish politically, it'll be on the state level. We need to concentrate on state legislatures and governors' mansions. Because the federal government is going to concentrate on military adventurism and tax cutting, more and more functions will devolve to the states. If there's to be any decency and humane social institutions, they'll have to be on the state level. Imagine how little joy it gives me, a Texan, to write this.

We might as well face the facts. Republicans control all three branches at all levels. They control the news media. They control the process. A year ago, I'd have been the first to say that jeering and finger-pointing and demonizing the government are beneath us, no way to behave if we want the electorate to trust us with power. But they're the only way to behave now that the doors of power are sealed shut against us.

[Felix Mala]

1. Please don't give up on ideas and ideals

Don't give up on USA... It likely won't be long until our ideas and ideals are once again needed. I've heard lots of comparisons to previous elections, 1964, 1996... I'm thinking of the 1928 election when the "liberal" voices of doom and gloom were silenced by a solid Republican majority that took firm control of all branches of the government. It wasn't long, just four years, before the people decided that the leaders weren't working in their best interest and that they really needed government after all.

Even barring a horrible war or economic downturn, I think in four years the people will be tired of paying $20 a head to get into National Parks only to find lines of dump trunks hauling out trees and minerals. I think people will sit up and notice that the botched delivery of a baby will only net them $75,000 for a lifetime of care. And the first time a major corporation's stock takes a nosedive while holding 25% of the Social Security investments of the population, there should be one or two calls for change...

[library_max]

4. I think you may be missing the point.

It won't matter what people want four years from now. Between black box voting and voter purging and gerrymandering and voter intimidation, what the voters want won't matter at all. There will always be enough knee-jerk bigots and panickers and lemmings to vote for the Republicans and create the illusion that they won fair and square, with the assistance of the media which they own. People get used to the way things are in a one-party state, no matter how bad they get. They'll cuss "the government" but they won't imagine that it would make things better if another party ran it.

[RawMaterials]

5. I relay hope we get are stock market crash before

they privatize SS, and Medicare. Other wise I think its all just part of the plan to pull out all of the wealth in the country. the stock markets is one giant pyramid scam, and once the government forces everyone to put there retirement and savings into the markets, you pull the plug and walk away. everyone else is left to deal with the problems you created.

[Cats Against Frist]

19. That fits in nicely with my "pit stop" theory

that the multinationals are going to suck us dry, before they focus on the two billion potential consumers in India and China.

[silvershadow]

22. been thinking the same thing for ahwile now. n/t

[jman0]

2. Where do the Democrats go from here?

We've all seen the map. A massive swathe of red pushing blue to very corners of the landscape.
How are democrats going to turn it around?
I've read things about how dems could entice/approach the southern states and some people mention religion.. I don't trust it.
I felt Kerry was a weak canidate because he's from the northeast and they don't generally get elected in national elections.
I think the democrats (that are already a centralist party imo, not the Left) will have to move toward the right. Not unlike "new" Labour under Blair in the UK. What did THEY do to turn things around after what, years and years of Tory mis-rule?
Well for one, they started dressing like Conservative Tories. And they started sounding like Conservative Tories. They ostracized long standing Labour personalities and margenalized the real Left and socialist elements of the party.
They became a lighter shade of Tory.
That's my opinion and i suspect the Democrats will follow suit.

[library_max]

6. We already did all that stuff. It didn't work.

We didn't lose because we ran a bleeding-heart northeastern liberal. The image they created of Kerry was 100% fiction - they could have done the same to anybody, and would have. We lost because they have all the money and no conscience. We knew that would be hard to beat. All we had was the truth, that Democrats can make government work and make things better for people and for the nation. If we couldn't win with that, with only four years of bungling and mendacity separating us from Clinton's eight years of peace and prosperity, then we're not going to win with it next time or any time in the foreseeable future. They stole the election and completely got away with it. They own the whole process now.

[newyawker99]

17. Hi jman0!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Sparkle]

23. Check the 2nd map on this link:

http://www.electoral-vote.com/

That is the true map and not the massive swathe of red you conservatives like to fawn over.

[Wombatzu]

3. best post-election post yet

long-time lurker and fellow Texan here.

i think we need a revolution in the way we think about politics, and to a certain extent this is what Dean has been telling us all along.

everything has to be about grass-roots organization now. everyone needs to start thinking local -- no more caring what "Tweety" has said about your candidate, no more nail-biting about who might appeal to the Christian Right.

Nov 3 needs to be a wake-up call... my only consolation has been a vision of a new movement coming out of this -- maybe a movement toward already Blue states and the creation of strong local governments.

[newyawker99]

18. Ho Wombatzu!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Wombatzu]

20. thanks! (nm)

[jjanpundt]

7. If I understand you correctly

you're asking Democrats to grow spines and hound the rethugs just as the rethugs hounded Clinton? Interesting. The shrubistas wouldn't last long under that microscope.

I also think that we need to get back to the liberal ideas that drew us to the Democratic party in the first place. Centrism worked for Clinton but IMO that was a fluke. We are a party of idealists that should find the room to embrace all liberal ideas. What does it matter if we're called extremists?

In the 70s protesting against the Vietnam War even my parents (moderate dems) were upset with what they considered "extreme ideas". Eventually, they accepted that the protesters were right and no longer so extreme. It took time but liberals can make a difference.

The only problem today and its almost insurmountable is the media. In the 70s we had a free press and no hate radio. Investigative journalists were respected. The press today, with few exceptions, are administration shills. Trying to get them to run a story critical of the admin is next to impossible. Air America is a step in the right direction, but we also need a TV, monthly magazine and newspaper outlet to get the message out. This would take major bucks and it appears we don't have that kind of backing.

Kind of a rambling post (I'm still new at this posting stuff, mostly content just lurking)/ Right now there's so many memories (Raygun election depresssion memories) and ideas clanking around in my brain it's hard to stay coherent.

[library_max]

8. No, not like the Republicans hounded Clinton.

The Republicans had Congress, tons of money, and the media. We have none of those things.

I think you're closer when you're thinking back to the late sixties and early seventies. Lenny Bruce and Mort Sahl. Down with the establishment and don't trust anyone over 30 (I'm 46, BTW). We're on the outside looking in, and we need to act like it. The Republicans are the establishment and we need to treat them as such, and eradicate all pretence that Democrats have any official power. Because the only role for us inside the power structure is scapegoat. We need to get comfortable outside. Fight the power!

[Maiden England]

9. This is a great post

We absolutely need to play this game on 2 levels. The first is to snipe constantly at the issues before this government.
The Senate, House and Executive are all Repug. They own this mess now. We must insist over and over, we have no power, they break it, they pay for it. We must work on presenting a unified message, as a whole party, that way the message is clear, that is also something that the repugs have been resoundingly good at doing.
Secondly, we must work even harder than we did at this Presidential election to win back local positions. From judges, to Sheriff, to Secretarys of State, State Attorney Generals, to Governors. The repugs have had a concerted effort to do this over the last 30 years, enabling them to have the Katherine Harris and Jeb Bushes in place in time to be able to steal votes for the party at crunch time. The only way to counter that kind of manipulation is to replace them with Dems.
Of course we have a doubly difficult task, the machinery to sway elections is already in place, we may be able to fly under the radar for a while in local elections, without too much tampering, but we will probably have to get rid of BBV first, although without any real power that is going to be difficult.
It honestly doesn't look good for us as far as regaining some kind of political sway, I think things will have to get a lot worse, before the unthinking electorate wake up and find out its koolaid and not coffee. Our job is of course to try and make sure that things never get that bad, but I'm not so sure we are going to be able to. If it does, that will benefit our struggle, but I really hope that it won't come to that, and we'll be able to retake the national agenda away from these neo-con/fascist wannabes by the means available and without them screwing up the country so bad, they couldn't get a cow to vote for them.

[library_max]

11. The trouble with interfering and trying to keep things from getting worse

is that it's a sure way to volunteer for the blame when they do get worse. We need to distance ourselves from the levers of power until there's some hope that we can actually get our hands on them again. A month ago I had nothing but contempt for the "Things have to get worse before they get better" philosophy. But it's all we have left now.

[robbedvoter]

10. Absolutely - well said.

I invite everyone to measure the owning of the process in Florida 2000 vs Florida 2004. One week of 4-8h lines in Miami Dade produced less votes than Gore got - yet not even Palast is bothering to go in the bowels of that one. Ohio will be just as clean next time.

[davekriss]

15. sigh

I very definately have the post-election blues...

from here: Machine Error Gives Bush Extra Ohio Votes:

Machine Error Gives Bush Extra Ohio Votes

Fri Nov 5, 6:04 PM ET

By JOHN McCARTHY, Associated Press Writer

COLUMBUS, Ohio - An error with an electronic voting system gave President Bush (news - web sites) 3,893 extra votes in suburban Columbus, elections officials said. Franklin County's unofficial results had Bush receiving 4,258 votes to Democrat John Kerry
(news - web sites)'s 260 votes in a precinct in Gahanna. Records show only 638 voters cast ballots in that precinct. Bush's total should have been recorded as 365.

Is this just the tip of the iceberg? robbedvoter: 4 to 8 hour lines in Miami Dade and Kerry gets less votes than Gore? Impossible! Why aren't we hearing of similar "glitches" that fall in Kerry's favor? The fix was in and we all know it (or should know it).

Today, the Fascists (Republicans) control the Presidency, the Senate, the House of Representatives, the Supreme Court and most of the judiciary, the press -- and, most frightening, the tools and processes through which we cast our "democratic" vote. The Leviathan will be exceedingly difficult to unseat. Think "generations"!

The last time the brown-shirt-jack-boots were "on the march", it took a world war to beat them back. Who will oppose the U.S. now? What weapons will be used? No, the New Imperium of the Fourth Reich will have to flame out through hegemonic overreach. But how many mothers will cry over their dead children, shredded by U.S. bombs unleashed by lies? How much sadness and suffering will the world have to walk through first?

These are truly sad times, my friends. :(

PS/ I'm right with you library_max. Good posts.

[library_max]

26. Thanks. /nt

[robbedvoter]

12. Kick!

[library_max]

13. Kick.

[bhikkhu]

14. Economic Protest

Maybe I have been harping on this too much, but at the moment the dems are all out of politics. As you say, the other party has the reins, and the grip is only likely to get tighter with time. Perhaps a new sense of responsibiity will inspire them to become more like us...a little compassion here, a few crumbs from the table there. In any case, the domestic agenda worries me less than the overseas agenda. There we are completely screwed (PNAC).

The point is, they have the reins but WE are the horse. They can't impose their agenda without a strong economy. Dems are 50% or so of the economy. Without us, their agenda goes nowhere. Consumer spending everywhere in the country all winds up in the same basket, which drives both industry and government. Slow spending and the machine breaks down. I would do that here and now, for the sake of what the rest of the world has not been put through yet.

If you don't like the agenda, stop cooperating, stop enabling, STOP SPENDING. That simple.

[library_max]

16. Stop eating, stop reading, stop wearing clothes,

stop living indoors, stop bathing, etc.? I really don't think going to live in caves is the answer. For one thing, there aren't enough caves.

[Avalon Sparks]

Don't stop eating...

But just stop spending on non-necessities. Or at the very least, only patronize businesses that support the Democrats. There have been several threads with lists.

Read books from the Library.
Buy clothes at second hand stores, or at least mom and pop shops.

On a second note, it makes sense to try and horde every extra dime right now, no matter how much you make, because we have no idea how bad the economy is going to get.

[glugglug]

28. Money is going to be worthless.

With 4 more years of Bush, the George Washington's face will be on the most affordable brand of toilet paper.

[library_max]

29. Inflation hasn't been any worse under Bush that anyone else.

We make ourselves look dumb when we blame him for everything, including the weather. Oh wait, he is sort-of to blame for the weather . . .

[Avalon Sparks]

21. Don't stop eating...

But just stop spending on non-necessities. Or at the very least, only patronize businesses that support the Democrats. There have been several threads with lists.

Read books from the Library.
Buy clothes at second hand stores, or at least mom and pop shops.

On a second note, it makes sense to try and horde every extra dime right now, no matter how much you make, because we have no idea how bad the economy is going to get.

[ethereal]

24. 9/11

boogered this country but good.

Even some of the somewhat *thoughtful* people I know who would normally consider voting for a candidate based on his/her performance, intelligence or stance on the issues has given * a pass because they feel *safer.*


Keep in mind I am surrounded by mostly incurious red-staters, but time and time again, I hear this comment as their only real consideration. These people don't bother to pay attention to the news, other than what they read for three minutes on the CNN ticker. They don't bother to educate themselves on what is really going on behind the scenes. They say "Politicians are all alike. Why should I bother to learn about the issues and the economy?"

Here is the stage I'm entering: Let them reap what they have sown. Let them see the results of their bland acceptance and incuriousness. When they have lost their job, their cars, their homes, their insurance and their Constitutional freedoms, maybe then they will listen. Of course, it will then be too late.

Dire? Yes. Over the top? Perhaps. When this country grinds to a halt--when it has been run into the ground by the greedy leeches who cannot create, but can only destroy--only then will the sleeping giant that is America awake and seek desperately for someone to lead them out of the darkness.

We know what's going on, and what it takes to lead. But will we answer their call?

[library_max]

25. Mexico became Mexico under the PRI.

Did any "sleeping giants" awake? When they finally lost an election, it was to someone further to the right.

People in a one-party state get used to things the way they are, and most become convinced that things would only get worse if the government changed (no matter how bad things get). So many people slip easily into autocratic ways of thinking - believe what you're told and go along to get along.

[oddtext]

27. this is exactly

what scares the piss outta me and i think i'll be unfortunate enough to live to see the mexicoification of murka. the dems need to fight. if they don't, it's fucking over. there's no point in debating who should run in 08. they'll lose for sure.